Phase 2 timetables - bad news!

[justanotheruser]

When did someone in Sydney delete all their work for the new timetable?  It wasn't backed up?  Someone working on their own C drive?

So how would no guards work in your opinion?

Would need CCTV IMO.

Well as long as CCTV is done properly that would work. In my experience however it is not done properly. I can walk through ipswich and not have my face seen once by CCTV yet the cameras in ipswich are supposed to record everything.


It happened late 90's. A friend of mine was one of the people who had to help fix it up after the problem. Apparently the backup got deleted as well.

[justanotheruser]

except with the curve in some platforms the driver will have trouble seeing the train to ensure it is clear. As it is the guard often has to walk to the other side of the platform to check. So from a safety viewpoint the guards are needed. Even having a person on the platform is no guarentee the driver will hear the whistle.

So how would no guards work in your opinion?

Umm, it would work like every other rail network that has switched to D.O.O

Explain to me how Melbourne and Perth are able to operate better train networks than ours without guards. Melbourne is a legacy network without level platforms, curved platforms etc and they have done it.
Adelaide is D.O.O only too, and they will be moving to high frequency in 2012-13.

The point is that there is a CCTV screen, paraboic mirror or similar positioned in view of the drivers cab for when visibility is a problem.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/curly15/mirror.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/undergroundtv.jpg

I am very wary of those mirrors as they have weaknesses. As for CCTV see my previous post.

Guards should NOT be gotten rid of. All that does is increase the workload for the driver and lower security for passengers (Do you really think the drivers would be watching cctv screens while driving). Not to mention if someone needs assistance to get on. Hello extra dwell times.

Drivers get paid a heap for what they do. I hardly think pushing a button to open a door or helping the odd disabled passenger is going to break their backs.
If they do change to D.O.O they could offer a payrise for drivers to compensate for this, and offer full retraining for all guards.

Why is a bus driver is able to drive the bus, operate the doors, help disabled passengers, and handle cash. But a train driver cant do some of these things.

The security issue is not a good enough argument. For starters guards can't do much due to the zero harm policy. Secondly, if guards were there for passenger security then why do they need to bother with roving security guards in the carriages?

Bus drivers help disabled passengers get on? When??? I've never seen it once. The drivers sit there and stare.
In any case your comparing apples with oranges. Buses have always had a different setup to a train network. If you want to have a fair comparison then ask the train drivers to accept cash. A bus is much easier to operate doors for. The driver does have the visibility without getting out of their seat of both doors. For private bus companies where they are increasingly only using the front set of doors are you suggesting the driver can't see? Remember the issue was visibility of doors to a train driver not can they hit a button. Also worth noting is that bus drivers have managed to close the doors on people and drag them along. In the early to mid 90's in Sydney bus drivers refused to take more people than the bus was licensed to hold. This was because of doors being closed on people and them getting injured. This led to students (who were often kicked off the bus for adults) waiting at bus stops for three hours. 

[#Metro]

I want high frequency. If that means guards become drivers and 1 staff per train, double the number of services then I think it is definitely worth looking at.

[SurfRail]

Guards should NOT be gotten rid of. All that does is increase the workload for the driver and lower security for passengers (Do you really think the drivers would be watching cctv screens while driving). Not to mention if someone needs assistance to get on. Hello extra dwell times.

Yes, the poor precious drivers.  Like the ones in Melbourne and Perth, you mean?

[somebody]

Bus drivers help disabled passengers get on? When??? I've never seen it once. The drivers sit there and stare.

On a low floor bus they operate the ramp to allow the disabled passenger on.  Wouldn't be surprised if Westside has no low floor buses.

[#Metro]

I think if the trains were fitted with CCTV outside each door (Brisbane's newer buses have cameras outside the door now as well as inside)
then this could work.

A strategy for passengers with a disability and how that would work needs to be thought about. It might not be easy but I think it is not insurmountable.

[Gazza]

It might not be easy but I think it is not insurmountable.

Exactly!

People are making it sound as if CityTrain is the only rail network in the world that has disabled passengers, curved platforms and potential security risks and "we're different" from the rest.

[mufreight]

Bus drivers help disabled passengers get on? When??? I've never seen it once. The drivers sit there and stare.

On a low floor bus they operate the ramp to allow the disabled passenger on.  Wouldn't be surprised if Westside has no low floor buses.

The majority of the Westside fleet are low floor and all buses used on the route services as distinct from the school services are disability compliant, and kneel to even further lower the entrance.

[justanotheruser]

Bus drivers help disabled passengers get on? When??? I've never seen it once. The drivers sit there and stare.

On a low floor bus they operate the ramp to allow the disabled passenger on.  Wouldn't be surprised if Westside has no low floor buses.

So for a train driver to operate a ramp he has to get out of his seat and get the ramp compared to a bus driver who sits on their backside and operates a ramp by pressing a button  but doesn't really help the person on. I have trouble seeing how that is a fair comparison. just because a ramp exists does not mean a person does not require assistance.

Certainly the problems could be overcome I'm sure.  I also like TT's suggestion for how CCTV might work. Although just like the mirrors they are prone to vandalism which will then stuff everything up. For the record I have not been to melbourne or perth since they got rid of train guards.



Westside have several low floor buses just for the record. While it wasn't clear one driver seemed to suggest basically translink provide the buses so they would be standard ones. It tends to be the stop buttons that don't work.

It might not be easy but I think it is not insurmountable.

Exactly!

People are making it sound as if CityTrain is the only rail network in the world that has disabled passengers, curved platforms and potential security risks and "we're different" from the rest.

To the best of my knowledge Cityrail is not planning on getting rid of guards. Especially in peak hour where they have three staff on the platform to give the all clear to the train.

[colinw]

This thread is fascinating.  All of the issues & regressive attitudes that lead to Brisbane's rail system being a 3rd rate joke laid out in the microcosm of one thread.

For every proposal to do things better, there is always a reason, no EXCUSE, as to why things are different and it cannot be done here.

I'm starting to think a mass lay-off and outsourcing to an external operator may be the only option.  Or just give up & run buses and leave the railway for freight.

To get a decent rail service, the WILL to provide that service must be there.  If it isn't then stop wasting money on infrastructure & inefficient services that aren't going to get used properly.

[O_128]

This thread is fascinating.  All of the issues & regressive attitudes that lead to Brisbane's rail system being a 3rd rate joke laid out in the microcosm of one thread.

For every proposal to do things better, there is always a reason, no EXCUSE, as to why things are different and it cannot be done here.

I'm starting to think a mass lay-off and outsourcing to an external operator may be the only option.  Or just give up & run buses and leave the railway for freight.

To get a decent rail service, the WILL to provide that service must be there.  If it isn't then stop wasting money on infrastructure & inefficient services that aren't going to get used properly.

I agree, Im sure MTR, Veola and a lot of other companies can see the potential our system has, Give them free reign on the timetable and the ability to work with bus operators and let translink handle the infrastructure itself and fares.

[colinw]

Re-reading what I posted above, I think it comes off as a bit harsh.  I do NOT mean to criticise the many hard working people at the "coal face" of service provision in QR, and I'm sure there are good people working for TransLink as well.

The point I was trying to make is that the real issues facing our public transport system are primarily cultural in nature.  Sure, there are technical reasons at play as well, but until the culture of mediocrity is solved we're just going to keep getting the same crud dished out year after year.

[HappyTrainGuy]

For now I'd be happy if they just got rid of the absurd rort with 2 guards on 6 car trains when the rear cars are locked beyond Ipswich.  I'm sure it's more widespread than that.

Are you referring to having 2 guards actually working or one guard on duty and another driver/guard off duty as they are permitted to travel in the cabs when going to/from shifts?

Drivers get paid a heap for what they do. I hardly think pushing a button to open a door or helping the odd disabled passenger is going to break their backs.
If they do change to D.O.O they could offer a payrise for drivers to compensate for this, and offer full retraining for all guards.

Why is a bus driver is able to drive the bus, operate the doors, help disabled passengers, and handle cash. But a train driver cant do some of these things.

If your going to compare trains to busses then what about those Volvo Metroliners. Last time I checked it wasn't the easiest of busses to get in to. The issue isn't just limited to wheelchairs.

The security issue is not a good enough argument. For starters guards can't do much due to the zero harm policy.

Quite the opposite.

Secondly, if guards were there for passenger security then why do they need to bother with roving security guards in the carriages?

Only certain rollingstock can view cctv with others only recording for later playback.

I'm the same. I haven't been to Melbourne/Perth since they got rid of guards. But haven't Melbourne drivers been at war with some of the station staff that flash the lights to tell them they the train can go during peak? And with regards to CCTV cameras/mirrors is that vandalism, obstructions and weather have an effect on their use. Even the CCTV cameras on trains get drawn on with pens, scratched and stickers get placed over the screen/lens.

[Cam]

People are making it sound as if CityTrain is the only rail network in the world that has disabled passengers, curved platforms and potential security risks and "we're different" from the rest.

For me, the only way we can change perception of Queensland/ers is to do smart things & lead the country in the way things are done here. The frequency & speed of rail services provided by Transperth in WA shows up how poor TransLink's rail services are here in SE Qld. 

Why wasn't the Gold Coast line built along the Pacific Motorway through Brisbane's suburbs like the Mandurah Line was built along the Kwinana Freeway? The 70km trip to Mandurah from Perth takes about 50 minutes. The comparison in SE Qld to Mandurah is Nerang which is 71 km from Brisbane via the Pacific Motorway. The travel time between Nerang & Brisbane Central is 70 minutes - even during peak periods on express services. No wonder so many commuters choose to drive. Imagine a rail trip between Nerang & Brisbane Central of 50 minutes? It takes almost 50 minutes between Central & Beenleigh on the Gold Coast services.

[somebody]

So for a train driver to operate a ramp he has to get out of his seat and get the ramp compared to a bus driver who sits on their backside and operates a ramp by pressing a button  but doesn't really help the person on. I have trouble seeing how that is a fair comparison. just because a ramp exists does not mean a person does not require assistance.

No, bus drivers must leave their seat to fold out the ramp, and then put it back after it's finished with.  I have trouble seeing why your point was worth making however?  Even if there was a button for bus drivers, it is a perfectly fair ask for the train driver to get out of his cab to unfold a ramp for wheelchair pax.

To the best of my knowledge Cityrail is not planning on getting rid of guards. Especially in peak hour where they have three staff on the platform to give the all clear to the train.

Pretty sure that the Waratah trains are equipped with CCTV which makes it achievable in the future.  So some moves are being made.  It's only a matter of time from there.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Libs make it DOO on the Waratah trains on their EIS.

The point I was trying to make is that the real issues facing our public transport system are primarily cultural in nature.  Sure, there are technical reasons at play as well, but until the culture of mediocrity is solved we're just going to keep getting the same crud dished out year after year.

Hear here.

Ditto that point for CityRail.

[#Metro]

I'm starting to think a mass lay-off and outsourcing to an external operator may be the only option.  Or just give up & run buses and leave the railway for freight.

I'm starting to get tired of low frequency. Sick of it actually. Why not open the tender to MTR Hong Kong and choose the operator based on who can write the timetable with the highest frequency and span of hours?

To get a decent rail service, the WILL to provide that service must be there.  If it isn't then stop wasting money on infrastructure & inefficient services that aren't going to get used properly.

Our system is starting to look silly vs Perth and Melbourne and possibly Adelaide soon. 30 minute frequency!
Over the expensive fiesta of concrete that just results in more useless 30 minute frequency. Why not actually run services after spending $100 PER KILOMETRE on these things?

[O_128]

People are making it sound as if CityTrain is the only rail network in the world that has disabled passengers, curved platforms and potential security risks and "we're different" from the rest.

For me, the only way we can change perception of Queensland/ers is to do smart things & lead the country in the way things are done here. The frequency & speed of rail services provided by Transperth in WA shows up how poor TransLink's rail services are here in SE Qld. 

Why wasn't the Gold Coast line built along the Pacific Motorway through Brisbane's suburbs like the Mandurah Line was built along the Kwinana Freeway? The 70km trip to Mandurah from Perth takes about 50 minutes. The comparison in SE Qld to Mandurah is Nerang which is 71 km from Brisbane via the Pacific Motorway. The travel time between Nerang & Brisbane Central is 70 minutes - even during peak periods on express services. No wonder so many commuters choose to drive. Imagine a rail trip between Nerang & Brisbane Central of 50 minutes? It takes almost 50 minutes between Central & Beenleigh on the Gold Coast services.

It would probably have cost double though 800mill for 80km of rail would have been a good deal. We can always convert the busway to heavy and do it that way though not in my lifetime

[justanotheruser]

So for a train driver to operate a ramp he has to get out of his seat and get the ramp compared to a bus driver who sits on their backside and operates a ramp by pressing a button  but doesn't really help the person on. I have trouble seeing how that is a fair comparison. just because a ramp exists does not mean a person does not require assistance.

No, bus drivers must leave their seat to fold out the ramp, and then put it back after it's finished with.  I have trouble seeing why your point was worth making however?  Even if there was a button for bus drivers, it is a perfectly fair ask for the train driver to get out of his cab to unfold a ramp for wheelchair pax.

To the best of my knowledge Cityrail is not planning on getting rid of guards. Especially in peak hour where they have three staff on the platform to give the all clear to the train.

Pretty sure that the Waratah trains are equipped with CCTV which makes it achievable in the future.  So some moves are being made.  It's only a matter of time from there.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Libs make it DOO on the Waratah trains on their EIS.

The point I was trying to make is that the real issues facing our public transport system are primarily cultural in nature.  Sure, there are technical reasons at play as well, but until the culture of mediocrity is solved we're just going to keep getting the same crud dished out year after year.

Hear here.

Ditto that point for CityRail.

Did they get rid of the automatic ramps? Guess they did frequently leave buses unable to move.

I wasn't saying expecting the driver to get out is unreasonable just that for the buses with ramps they have been operated by a button where the driver does not have to move. Having the driver getting out for wheelchairs will result in delays which people generally aren't happy about. It will either mean a reduction in capacity for wheelchairs or further to walk. Just as long as people are happy with those delays that is fine. However I would suggest most people would not be happy.

[#Metro]

How does this work in Australian and Canadian and US DOO systems?

[somebody]

How does this work in Australian and Canadian and US DOO systems?

Some talk on that at ATDB, here: http://busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=59984
Per requires assistance to be pre-booked apparently.
Mel it is done by the driver.

Not sure about Adl.

[Gazza]

Only certain rollingstock can view cctv with others only recording for later playback.

But 'guardian trains' are run with any type of rolling stock.

Having the driver getting out for wheelchairs will result in delays which people generally aren't happy about. It will either mean a reduction in capacity for wheelchairs or further to walk. Just as long as people are happy with those delays that is fine. However I would suggest most people would not be happy.

Is there any time difference really? A guard has to get out of a cab, put the ramp out, assist, pack it up, get in the cab, and go.
The whole time the driver is waiting and can do nothing...

I wasn't saying expecting the driver to get out is unreasonable just that for the buses with ramps they have been operated by a button where the driver does not have to move.

But all of BTs low floor buses use the flip out ramps, and have been like that from the start. BT carries the most passengers, and can make it work.

And with regards to CCTV cameras/mirrors is that vandalism, obstructions and weather have an effect on their use.

Again, you're treating Qld as if it's in a vacuum.
Every rail network faces the issue CCTV/mirrors getting vandalised. Weather is not an issue becasue as you could see from the pic they put a hood over the equipment to keep water beads off.
But the point is that they will work 99% of the time, and if it isn't working the driver still has the option of stepping right out of the cab and checking the platform with their own eyes, and the only real penalty is a few extra seconds of dwell for each train at that station only (Until they get it fixed, which would happen quicky, as is the case when a signal breaks etc since it's essential equipment)

The point is, if all these minor issues were really deal breakers, then all the other train networks would've scurried back to 2 man operation.

These repeated attempts to pull up weak arguments of why things "can't be done", to resist change, in the face of a truckload of interstate and overseas experiences suggesting otherwise really does tell me it is indeed a cultural problem in Qld rather than any "real life" reason as to why basic operational improvements are so slow to progress, or worse, don't happen at all.

[#Metro]

You know in the 1960's didn't the buses used to have two man operation?

If we want to get rid of 1960's transport policy, I think we have to do away with archaic anachronisms on the network. Guards could become drivers and we could maybe double the number of services run per day and double the frequency from 30 minutes to 15 minutes. Cameras can be fitted to the outsides of trains like BT buses currently have external cameras fitted near the doors. Mirrors and CCTV could help as well.

FIX THE FREQUENCY

[HappyTrainGuy]

Only certain rollingstock can view cctv with others only recording for later playback.

But 'guardian trains' are run with any type of rolling stock.

Yes that's true regarding guardian trains as security walk along the trains. But I'm not referring anything near guardian trains.

With regards to weather it could be a series of matters. Internal fogging of the screen/lens. Mist. Dirt build up inside. Lens flare are a few.

You know in the 1960's didn't the buses used to have two man operation?

And trains also had conductors. With the introduction of being able to buy tickets elsewhere or swipping on/off their need was reduced.

[Gazza]

But I'm not referring anything near guardian trains.

Groan.

The overall point I'm making is that that if a train guard alone was good enough to ensure safety like you say, then you wouldn't need to have the roving security you see on late night trains etc.

But the fact we do need to have roving security proves that having a guard just sitting in an isolated cab is pretty ineffectual at deterring incidents, or assisting in a proper incident.

Or, to put it in simple terms: "If a train has two roving security personnel, then what's the point of the train guard?"

To me, a smarter approach would be to just have drivers, and then on top of that have the security on the services deemed to need it/more transit officers (with those dogs if possible!) that can serve a double revenue enforcement/crime prevention role.

This way you aren't wasting staff on services like daylight offpeak trains and rush hour trains, where there is pretty low risk of an incident.

Furthermore, if we were freed of the shackles of two man operation, we would have higher frequency as tramtrain suggested, and higher frequency means more pax, and more pax means more passive surveillance and less time spent waiting at stations 'exposed'.

[Gazza]

With regards to weather it could be a series of matters. Internal fogging of the screen/lens. Mist. Dirt build up inside. Lens flare are a few.

Oh for goodness sake, stop:


Honestly, what year do you think we are in with respect to CCTV camera technology? 1980?

OK then smarty pants, if these technologies don't work in all weather, then how come places that get cold and wet like Melbourne, Europe, Japan etc can rely on it?

[Fares_Fair]

Hey Gazza,

As an aside.
How do you do put the picture into the post ?

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Fares_Fair]

Found it, the insert image button...doh !

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'm just saying that these problems can still occur no matter how old or new, how expensive or how cheap the technology applied. What fail safes are applied to only having one crew member onboard?

[Gazza]

Well I'd say the exact same fail safes used in Perth and Melbourne and Adelaide.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Which is?

[#Metro]

Ok, this is going to go to a new thread...

[Gazza]

Which is?

Does it actually matter?

Admittedly, I don't know about their operations to that level of depth, but whatever it is, someone has thought about it, and it has to be working on a day to day basis.
It's the outcome, not the process that matters.

[Gazza]

PS, I'm sure even if I did find out, you'd make up some reason as to why it couldn't be done in Qld   

[HappyTrainGuy]

you'd make up some reason

[somebody]

I side with Gazza.

[justanotheruser]

Only certain rollingstock can view cctv with others only recording for later playback.

But 'guardian trains' are run with any type of rolling stock.

Having the driver getting out for wheelchairs will result in delays which people generally aren't happy about. It will either mean a reduction in capacity for wheelchairs or further to walk. Just as long as people are happy with those delays that is fine. However I would suggest most people would not be happy.

Is there any time difference really? A guard has to get out of a cab, put the ramp out, assist, pack it up, get in the cab, and go.
The whole time the driver is waiting and can do nothing...

I wasn't saying expecting the driver to get out is unreasonable just that for the buses with ramps they have been operated by a button where the driver does not have to move.

But all of BTs low floor buses use the flip out ramps, and have been like that from the start. BT carries the most passengers, and can make it work.

And with regards to CCTV cameras/mirrors is that vandalism, obstructions and weather have an effect on their use.

Again, you're treating Qld as if it's in a vacuum.
Every rail network faces the issue CCTV/mirrors getting vandalised. Weather is not an issue becasue as you could see from the pic they put a hood over the equipment to keep water beads off.
But the point is that they will work 99% of the time, and if it isn't working the driver still has the option of stepping right out of the cab and checking the platform with their own eyes, and the only real penalty is a few extra seconds of dwell for each train at that station only (Until they get it fixed, which would happen quicky, as is the case when a signal breaks etc since it's essential equipment)

The point is, if all these minor issues were really deal breakers, then all the other train networks would've scurried back to 2 man operation.

These repeated attempts to pull up weak arguments of why things "can't be done", to resist change, in the face of a truckload of interstate and overseas experiences suggesting otherwise really does tell me it is indeed a cultural problem in Qld rather than any "real life" reason as to why basic operational improvements are so slow to progress, or worse, don't happen at all.

Well if all BT's buses have been hand operated ramps from the beginning perhaps you can explain why I have witnessed different. Why would a bus with a ramp stuck out not just be able to fold it back in rather than ordering all passengers off the bus and get a mechanic to come and fix it?


yes the guard does this but is close to multiple entry points. My comment was if there were multiple wheelchairs and not enough room in the door behind the driver. Then they would have to go to a different door or even different carriage. Before you say anything I have seen on numerous occasions where there have been wheelchairs in front and behind guards compartment. Moving the wheelchairs to a different door is not neccesarily easy.


Sure the driver can get out and look but it is in those situations that people get stuck in doors and then they aren't seen.


I have acknowledged CCTV is a solution if done correctly but based on what I've seen so far I have little faith that it would be done correctly. Remember the goodwill bridge which ended up not meeting up properly and is too steep for wheelchairs despite the fact it was spoken of as being especially for them hence the name goodwill.


Sure none of these are deal breakers but lets get it done right and work it out not just implement and then discover problems and put poor solutions in place because they are rushed.

[SurfRail]

Well if all BT's buses have been hand operated ramps from the beginning perhaps you can explain why I have witnessed different. Why would a bus with a ramp stuck out not just be able to fold it back in rather than ordering all passengers off the bus and get a mechanic to come and fix it?

Mechanical wheelchair ramps are only fitted to some of the low-floor buses delivered pre-2004/2005 (ie what is currently a minority of all low-floors).  There are reasons I will not go into here out of respect for BT staff, but suffice to say there is basically a moratorium on these being fitted to any new buses.

[somebody]

In Melbourne wheelchair pax must use the first door of the first carriage AIUI.  To be near the driver.

[petey3801]

First up, i'm not getting into the whole DOO argument.

Just want to say that it may result in significant delays with Wheelchair passengers as the driver must isolate the cab and lock away the key before leaving the cab (even if it was to help a wheelchair). When the Driver gets back into the cab, they need to then re-energise the cab, pump up the air (which can take a while in some trains, ie: >30secs) and do the cab tests which need to be performed every time a cab is energised.

So it may result in a number of delays just by wheelchairs if it is introduced and procedures aren't changed.

As I said above, I don't want to get into the debate, just wanted to put that out there.

PS: Since when is there 2 guards west of Ippy on 6-car trains? I've never had a second guard out there...

[somebody]

First up, i'm not getting into the whole DOO argument.

Just want to say that it may result in significant delays with Wheelchair passengers as the driver must isolate the cab and lock away the key before leaving the cab (even if it was to help a wheelchair). When the Driver gets back into the cab, they need to then re-energise the cab, pump up the air (which can take a while in some trains, ie: >30secs) and do the cab tests which need to be performed every time a cab is energised.

So it may result in a number of delays just by wheelchairs if it is introduced and procedures aren't changed.

As I said above, I don't want to get into the debate, just wanted to put that out there.

PS: Since when is there 2 guards west of Ippy on 6-car trains? I've never had a second guard out there...

I have received information that there is.  Late night trains I have noticed having more than one person in guard's compartments at Indooroopilly.