Phase 2 timetables - bad news!

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/05/phase-2-train-timetables-delayed.html

Very bad news for the "rest of the rail lines".
Another 6 months delay, another fare hike.

[Derwan]

We were talking to the QR timetablers at last week's CRG meeting.  I asked about the timing of phase 2.  They said they were still waiting on TransLink to let them know when they could start planning.

[Golliwog]

I think any timetable released before the Keperra FG duplication is finished is pointless anyway. Better to have to planned and ready to go for when the upgrade is finished.

[BrizCommuter]

I think any timetable released before the Keperra FG duplication is finished is pointless anyway. Better to have to planned and ready to go for when the upgrade is finished.

Should the new timetables and possible service improvements for 7 lines all be waiting upon just one infrastructure project? It is possible to write 2 timetables in a year, Melbourne seem to manage it! Aside from the Shorncliffe Line adjustments, will there be any improvements or changes to "the other lines" this side of 2012?

The delay just seems to be a continuation of the governments policy of increasing fares 15%, and limiting service improvements to only around 5% each year. A pretty good way of getting voted out of government!

[somebody]

I don't believe that anywhere in the world has such trouble writing a timetable as SEQ.  So there! 

CityRail also do it often.

I think any timetable released before the Keperra FG duplication is finished is pointless anyway. Better to have to planned and ready to go for when the upgrade is finished.

I doubt that the timetable will be ready to utilise this infrastructure in time.  Just like everything else they do.

[Fares_Fair]

I think any timetable released before the Keperra FG duplication is finished is pointless anyway. Better to have to planned and ready to go for when the upgrade is finished.

Should the new timetables and possible service improvements for 7 lines all be waiting upon just one infrastructure project? It is possible to write 2 timetables in a year, Melbourne seem to manage it! Aside from the Shorncliffe Line adjustments, will there be any improvements or changes to "the other lines" this side of 2012?

The delay just seems to be a continuation of the governments policy of increasing fares 15%, and limiting service improvements to only around 5% each year. A pretty good way of getting voted out of government!

I know that is what we commuters expect with fare increases.

But remember that the real reason fares are increasing 15% per annum until 2014, is not to provide or improve services but to reduce the government's subsidisation of the network from the current 25% ($1 commuter pays, $3 government pays) up to 30%. ($1 commuter pays, approx. just over $2 government pays)
that is paraphrased from a statement made by former Transport Minister, Rachel Nolan MP, on 15th October, 2009.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Edit: clarified sentence(bold type)
Edit: date corrected from 2008 to 15 October, 2009.

[O_128]

How typically pathetic of translink, I will write the things for free......O wait election in march.

[ozbob]

Delaying to a 'political oblivion'  I would suggest ... 

[somebody]

Delaying to a 'political oblivion'  I would suggest ... 

I'd suggest they would be dead in the water even with better PT policies.  However, it is another nail in the coffin.

[Fares_Fair]

I think any timetable released before the Keperra FG duplication is finished is pointless anyway. Better to have to planned and ready to go for when the upgrade is finished.

Should the new timetables and possible service improvements for 7 lines all be waiting upon just one infrastructure project? It is possible to write 2 timetables in a year, Melbourne seem to manage it! Aside from the Shorncliffe Line adjustments, will there be any improvements or changes to "the other lines" this side of 2012?

The delay just seems to be a continuation of the governments policy of increasing fares 15%, and limiting service improvements to only around 5% each year. A pretty good way of getting voted out of government!

I know that is what we commuters expect with fare increases.

But remember that the real reason fares are increasing 15% per annum until 2014, is not to provide or improve services but to reduce the government's subsidisation of the network from the current 25% ($1 commuter pays, $3 government pays) up to 30%. ($1 commuter pays, approx. just over $2 government pays)
that is paraphrased from a statement made by former Transport Minister, Rachel Nolan MP, on 15th October, 2009.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Edit: clarified sentence(bold type)
Edit: date corrected from 2008 to 15 October, 2009.

Ms Nolan said on 15th October, 2009;
"the fare strategy also aimed to return the State Government's per trip subsidy from 75% back to 70% within 5 years.
To help reach that goal fares will increase 15% a year from 2011 to 2014 - or around 40 cents to 60 cents a year for a typical two-zone ticket."


Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Stillwater]

Of course, the state government could reduce its percentage of the subsidy by looking to efficiencies within the portion it spends.  One interpretation of what's happening is that the government is saying: 'Because we are so profligate with the sums we allocate to public transport, the travelling public should contribute more to the black hole created by our inefficiency.'

[ozbob]

Ms Nolan said on 15th October, 2009;
"the fare strategy also aimed to return the State Government's per trip subsidy from 75% back to 70% within 5 years.
To help reach that goal fares will increase 15% a year from 2011 to 2014 - or around 40 cents to 60 cents a year for a typical two-zone ticket."

Things can change overnight in politics ...  the fare strategy is not reducing the subsidy at all, just leading to a lot of grief.  What will improve the fare box is encourageing more pax particularly out of peak. 

[somebody]

the fare strategy is not reducing the subsidy at all, just leading to a lot of grief.  What will improve the fare box is encourageing more pax particularly out of peak. 

Of course, the state government could reduce its percentage of the subsidy by looking to efficiencies within the portion it spends.  One interpretation of what's happening is that the government is saying: 'Because we are so profligate with the sums we allocate to public transport, the travelling public should contribute more to the black hole created by our inefficiency.'

Both comments I strongly agree with.

[Mozz]

I still would like to understand what comprises this 70 - 75% - and why is farebox increase through exorbitant fare increases year upon year, the only strategy Translink appears to have (hammer nail analogy here).

Is there anything else occurring in terms of productivity improvement that can be quantified? Alternative revenue sources? Smarter use of assets?

Does the 75% include the cost of railway stations or track or trains or other assets that were built and paid for 20, 30, 50 or 100 years ago?

I still think double face palm http://s924.photobucket.com/albums/ad87/Zhyd/?action=view&current=DoubleFacepalmRickerPicard.jpg&newest=1 when thinking about $26.0M spent on Indooroopilly railway station .......

[SurfRail]

Stop using guards on trains, get a forced transfer system going on the SEB to avoid stupid duplication of routes, stop running welfare routings.

You can liken the system to somebody who has been out on the turps the night before - insensible, slow, bloated, (smelly even).  What you are basically doing is paying for that person to go out and get on the Bundy and Coke again every night.  Nothing will change until you sober him up - throwing money at the problem is silly.

[Derwan]

I don't believe that anywhere in the world has such trouble writing a timetable as SEQ.  So there! 

CityRail also do it often.

The issue is NOT writing the timetables.  The timetablers at QR are eager and ready to go.  They can't wait to plan a better timetable.  Unfortunately they have to wait until TransLink gives the go-ahead to start planning.

[SurfRail]

The issue is NOT writing the timetables.  The timetablers at QR are eager and ready to go.  They can't wait to plan a better timetable.  Unfortunately they have to wait until TransLink gives the go-ahead to start planning.

You know, that really is not my experience having spoken to them.  The people I have discussed 15 minute frequencies with looked at me blankly and mumbled about the 'freight task'.

Sack the lot and get the PTA to do it.

[somebody]

I don't believe that anywhere in the world has such trouble writing a timetable as SEQ.  So there! 

CityRail also do it often.

The issue is NOT writing the timetables.  The timetablers at QR are eager and ready to go.  They can't wait to plan a better timetable.  Unfortunately they have to wait until TransLink gives the go-ahead to start planning.

Oh yeah?  Then why did it still apply before Translink's formation?  I can accept the culture in CityTrain may be improving, but I can't accept that it is all Translink's fault.

The issue is NOT writing the timetables.  The timetablers at QR are eager and ready to go.  They can't wait to plan a better timetable.  Unfortunately they have to wait until TransLink gives the go-ahead to start planning.

You know, that really is not my experience having spoken to them.  The people I have discussed 15 minute frequencies with looked at me blankly and mumbled about the 'freight task'.

Sack the lot and get the PTA to do it.

I'd like to think we could do a better job than those guys!

Although I'd really rather that other people did it correctly.

[Derwan]

You know, that really is not my experience having spoken to them.  The people I have discussed 15 minute frequencies with looked at me blankly and mumbled about the 'freight task'.

That's weird.  The 2 timetablers I spoke to the week before last were quite enthusiastic when I asked about the possibility of a 15-minute frequency on all lines.    They mentioned the freight issue on on the Caboolture line but said the 15-minute frequency may still be possible.  (It would be at least to Petrie.)

However they said it may be difficult to maintain a 15-minute frequency in the contra-peak direction during the peak period.  (Yes, all the armchair experts will say there are empties running in the contra-peak direction and you could just use those, but the patterns for these trains aren't anything like a revenue service.)

[ozbob]

My experiences also suggest the operator is more than willing to have a go ...

[somebody]

Get rid of the empties!

Case in point: the Ipswich Line.

A 4tph service All to Richlands counter peak combined with 4tph Milton, Toowong, Indro, Darra all to Ipswich counter peak would be very much superior and in the AM, it would be possible to not have a conflicting move on the counter peak train until Indooroopilly.  Ideally there should be no conflicting moves.  A few people might actually use the service counter peak if it was provided in this way.  Insisting that all counter peak trains in service must serve all stations is dumb.

Track arrangements do not consider this, and that is very unfortunate.  You need to weigh up the benefit of having the inbound-inbound-outbound (west to east) between Darra and Corinda versus the benefit of avoiding a couple of conflicting moves at Indooroopilly and Darra.  I do not favour a conflicting move between Roma St and Milton if that can be avoided, which it can, or at least could if not for the stabling shortfall.

In theory, of course, a similar system could be done in the AM with no conflicting moves and a skip stop pattern counter peak but that's harder.

However, there are legitimate issues with the Beenleigh line in particular.  Positioning the Kuraby starters while having the Gold Coast trains eating up the track capacity is a real problem and likely the only solution (besides numerous empties) is a skip stop pattern on the Kuraby and Beenleigh trains.

[BrizCommuter]

Back to the Ferny Grove Line - in delaying the timetable (again), have the ALP forgotten that many Ferny Grove Line commuters live in the Ashgrove constituency?

[ozbob]

Back to the Ferny Grove Line - in delaying the timetable (again), have the ALP forgotten that many Ferny Grove Line commuters live in the Ashgrove constituency?

Heck, good point!

[BrizCommuter]

Back to the Ferny Grove Line - in delaying the timetable (again), have the ALP forgotten that many Ferny Grove Line commuters live in the Ashgrove constituency?

Heck, good point!

Press release?

Another point is that only "2012" has been given as a finish time for the Keperra to Ferny Grove duplication, of which the completion  may be an excuse for delaying the phase 2 timetables. If the duplication is not finished by June 20th 2012, then we may not even see the phase 2 timetables implemented in the next financial year. Oh dear!

[ozbob]

Yes, worth noting ..  I think it could be well finished by June though.  They are likely to have good weather now till October at least and that will get them a fair way down the track so to speak.  It is matter of really getting into it now whilst they can, and come the next wet then just plod along as they did for Corinda to Darra  Richlands etc.

[mufreight]

Some credible ideas posted but equaly a lot of impractical hot air aspirations unless there are billions avaliable for additional rollingstock that will be underutilised because of the lack of infrastructure.

[Gazza]

The Inner City Rail Capacity Study also mentioned 15 minute off-peak timetables being implemented in 2010. So by 2012, the new timetables for the above mentioned rail lines will have been delayed by two years.

Woah woah, so this was actually said officially? Is the ICRCS still available (link?)
We should be hammering this in every media release!

[somebody]

Some credible ideas posted but equaly a lot of impractical hot air aspirations unless there are billions avaliable for additional rollingstock that will be underutilised because of the lack of infrastructure.

On the one hand we'd need more rollingstock but the other that would be underutilised?

[Derwan]

Woah woah, so this was actually said officially? Is the ICRCS still available (link?)
We should be hammering this in every media release!

This was just a study.  Not much notice was taken of it.

The study was based on several assumptions including:

• the intermediate off peak service pattern would operate from 2010 onwards (15 minute
  services at Ferny Grove, Darra, Manly and Kuraby, and 7.5 minutes at Eagle Junction)
• the 15 minute off peak pattern would operate as soon as the first corridor is built (2015)

I'm not sure if the study is still available online.  I have a copy if you want it.

[Stillwater]

The study is available and may be found here: http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/I/Inner-City-Rail-Capacity-Study/Inner-City-Rail-Capacity-Study-publications.aspx

[Golliwog]

The issue is NOT writing the timetables.  The timetablers at QR are eager and ready to go.  They can't wait to plan a better timetable.  Unfortunately they have to wait until TransLink gives the go-ahead to start planning.

You know, that really is not my experience having spoken to them.  The people I have discussed 15 minute frequencies with looked at me blankly and mumbled about the 'freight task'.

Sack the lot and get the PTA to do it.

When did you talk to them? I expect a big change has occured within QR with the splitting of the freight arm into QR National. Didn't we point out a few times that in the old QR that SEQ passengers services were treated as the poor cousin? Now the the publicly owned section is purely for passengers I would expect the attitudes described by Derwan.

[SurfRail]

When did you talk to them? I expect a big change has occured within QR with the splitting of the freight arm into QR National. Didn't we point out a few times that in the old QR that SEQ passengers services were treated as the poor cousin? Now the the publicly owned section is purely for passengers I would expect the attitudes described by Derwan.

November 2010...

Unless that guy was an aberration, all they are really interested in is the peak.

[somebody]

Unless that guy was an aberration, all they are really interested in is the peak.

Which is supported by the 6 June IPS-CAB timetable. Little for counter peak either.

[justanotheruser]

I don't believe that anywhere in the world has such trouble writing a timetable as SEQ.  So there! 

CityRail also do it often.

I think any timetable released before the Keperra FG duplication is finished is pointless anyway. Better to have to planned and ready to go for when the upgrade is finished.

I doubt that the timetable will be ready to utilise this infrastructure in time.  Just like everything else they do.

except for when that person in sydney accidently deleted all the work they had done for a timetable upgrade!!! Then it wasn't so easy.

[justanotheruser]

Stop using guards on trains, get a forced transfer system going on the SEB to avoid stupid duplication of routes, stop running welfare routings.

You can liken the system to somebody who has been out on the turps the night before - insensible, slow, bloated, (smelly even).  What you are basically doing is paying for that person to go out and get on the Bundy and Coke again every night.  Nothing will change until you sober him up - throwing money at the problem is silly.

except with the curve in some platforms the driver will have trouble seeing the train to ensure it is clear. As it is the guard often has to walk to the other side of the platform to check. So from a safety viewpoint the guards are needed. Even having a person on the platform is no guarentee the driver will hear the whistle.

So how would no guards work in your opinion?

[somebody]

When did someone in Sydney delete all their work for the new timetable?  It wasn't backed up?  Someone working on their own C drive?

So how would no guards work in your opinion?

Would need CCTV IMO.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/05/missed-opportunity.html
A missed opportunity?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Guards should NOT be gotten rid of. All that does is increase the workload for the driver and lower security for passengers (Do you really think the drivers would be watching cctv screens while driving). Not to mention if someone needs assistance to get on. Hello extra dwell times.

[somebody]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/05/missed-opportunity.html
A missed opportunity?

Point of order: Cardiff has a worse airport train service.  Around a 900m walk and an hourly frequency.  I'm not sure if this one counts as comparable though as it isn't a line constructed to serve the airport.

Not to mention if someone needs assistance to get on. Hello extra dwell times.

This is done in Melbourne.  If they can deal with it, why can't we? Other complaining about things slowing the service is thought unreasonable by QR staff, so this argument doesn't hold much water with me.

Guards should NOT be gotten rid of. All that does is increase the workload for the driver and lower security for passengers (Do you really think the drivers would be watching cctv screens while driving).

Are you asserting that the guard monitors the displays for security purposes?  I'd wonder if this was required.

For now I'd be happy if they just got rid of the absurd rort with 2 guards on 6 car trains when the rear cars are locked beyond Ipswich.  I'm sure it's more widespread than that.

[Gazza]

except with the curve in some platforms the driver will have trouble seeing the train to ensure it is clear. As it is the guard often has to walk to the other side of the platform to check. So from a safety viewpoint the guards are needed. Even having a person on the platform is no guarentee the driver will hear the whistle.

So how would no guards work in your opinion?

Umm, it would work like every other rail network that has switched to D.O.O

Explain to me how Melbourne and Perth are able to operate better train networks than ours without guards. Melbourne is a legacy network without level platforms, curved platforms etc and they have done it.
Adelaide is D.O.O only too, and they will be moving to high frequency in 2012-13.

The point is that there is a CCTV screen, paraboic mirror or similar positioned in view of the drivers cab for when visibility is a problem.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/curly15/mirror.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/undergroundtv.jpg

Guards should NOT be gotten rid of. All that does is increase the workload for the driver and lower security for passengers (Do you really think the drivers would be watching cctv screens while driving). Not to mention if someone needs assistance to get on. Hello extra dwell times.

Drivers get paid a heap for what they do. I hardly think pushing a button to open a door or helping the odd disabled passenger is going to break their backs.
If they do change to D.O.O they could offer a payrise for drivers to compensate for this, and offer full retraining for all guards.

Why is a bus driver is able to drive the bus, operate the doors, help disabled passengers, and handle cash. But a train driver cant do some of these things.

The security issue is not a good enough argument. For starters guards can't do much due to the zero harm policy. Secondly, if guards were there for passenger security then why do they need to bother with roving security guards in the carriages?