Mainline Electrification - Beyond 2030

[SteelPan]

Is it time to put in the pipeline (if not already so) the electrification of the main northern line to Townsville and then onto Cairns - as I said, it MAY already be on the drawing boards, can't remember if it is.  (Obviously track quality and dual tracking/passing loops is also in the mix here).

My thoughts are from 2030 the electrification could get to Townsville and then in the next decade, onto Cairns, the long term post-current Tilt Trains goal being (something like) see link below.

What do you please think?      (I know a new Sunlander is coming - I'm looking to the real next generation, steel wheel future)

[#Metro]

How much extra speed would be achieved (or reduction in journey time) by electrification vs track realignment.

[somebody]

Is it time to put in the pipeline (if not already so) the electrification of the main northern line to Townsville and then onto Cairns - as I said, it MAY already be on the drawing boards, can't remember if it is.  (Obviously track quality and dual tracking/passing loops is also in the mix here).

My thoughts are from 2030 the electrification could get to Townsville and then in the next decade, onto Cairns, the long term post-current Tilt Trains goal being (something like) see link below.

What do you please think?      (I know a new Sunlander is coming - I'm looking to the real next generation, steel wheel future)

I want to know why freight to Rockhampton is diesel powered.  It's not worth it for a few pax trains.

[SteelPan]

Trust me, by 2030+ deisel will be history!    Certainly wherever electric is a viable alternate, ie, the main northern line.

[SurfRail]

Is it time to put in the pipeline (if not already so) the electrification of the main northern line to Townsville and then onto Cairns - as I said, it MAY already be on the drawing boards, can't remember if it is.  (Obviously track quality and dual tracking/passing loops is also in the mix here).

My thoughts are from 2030 the electrification could get to Townsville and then in the next decade, onto Cairns, the long term post-current Tilt Trains goal being (something like) see link below.

What do you please think?      (I know a new Sunlander is coming - I'm looking to the real next generation, steel wheel future)

I want to know why freight to Rockhampton is diesel powered.  It's not worth it for a few pax trains.

More profitable to use electrics on the more intensively trafficked coal chains.  Obviously that will not always be the case.

I think upgrading the capacity and weatherproofing of the existing NCL by replacing and modernising track, lengthening passing loops, selective realignment, bridge replacement, level crossing removal etc is a more important objective for the timebeing, but more MLE will probably become necessary in the long-term.

[Golliwog]

Is it time to put in the pipeline (if not already so) the electrification of the main northern line to Townsville and then onto Cairns - as I said, it MAY already be on the drawing boards, can't remember if it is.  (Obviously track quality and dual tracking/passing loops is also in the mix here).

My thoughts are from 2030 the electrification could get to Townsville and then in the next decade, onto Cairns, the long term post-current Tilt Trains goal being (something like) see link below.

What do you please think?      (I know a new Sunlander is coming - I'm looking to the real next generation, steel wheel future)

I want to know why freight to Rockhampton is diesel powered.  It's not worth it for a few pax trains.

Where are the trains coming from/going to on the other end? Are they electrified?

Are all possible routes a freight train could be assigned to from Brisbane all electrified?

[SteelPan]

Where are the trains coming from/going to on the other end? Are they electrified?

Are all possible routes a freight train could be assigned to from Brisbane all electrified?
[/quote]

1) They'll be going to and coming from the same places they are now on the Main Northern line and any (unlikely) additions to the State Electric Network.*

2) I'm talking about the northern mainline at this time - my time frame is also about 2 decades away!

* we can only hope Toowoomba, by 2030, has a new [rail inclusive] range crossing with 24/7 high speed inter-urban access (well, I did say hope!).

[somebody]

Where are the trains coming from/going to on the other end? Are they electrified?

Are all possible routes a freight train could be assigned to from Brisbane all electrified?

Rockhampton, as I specified.

No.

Not sure about the yards etc, but there are diesel freighters running completely within the electrified territory with the possible exception of the yards.  Hence I asked the question.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Short answer... not anytime soon. Rocky-Cairns currently doesn't need to be electrified unless the whole track is realigned to improve the running speeds. Since not all of the places they run to or between are electrified they can only run diesel locos. Unless everywhere a train runs is electrified there's going to be diesel locos on the line. Having the line electrified for a couple tilts is going to lose them a huggge amount of money to do so.

Fishermans Island, Acica Ridge and Tennyson are both unwired sections.

Electrifying the line would not increase speeds overall. The diesel Tilts as is are currently more powerful than the electric tilts believe it or not. I wanna see that bad boy open the throttle and give the electrics top speed record a good run at. The current tilts can both already run 200+ (the ETT did 220 on the gold coast line during testing).
Simon, that's the only locos available. The reason for no electric freights between Brisbane-Rocky is because they've all been converted to coal running compared to when they were built for only running goods/passengers.

Edit: added Tennyson as an unwired location.

[mufreight]

Short answer... not anytime soon. Rocky-Cairns currently doesn't need to be electrified unless the whole track is realigned to improve the running speeds. Since not all of the places they run to or between are electrified they can only run diesel locos. Unless everywhere a train runs is electrified there's going to be diesel locos on the line. Having the line electrified for a couple tilts is going to lose them a huggge amount of money to do so.

Fishermans Island, Acica Ridge and Tennyson are both unwired sections.

Electrifying the line would not increase speeds overall. The diesel Tilts as is are currently more powerful than the electric tilts believe it or not. I wanna see that bad boy open the throttle and give the electrics top speed record a good run at. The current tilts can both already run 200+ (the ETT did 220 on the gold coast line during testing).
Simon, that's the only locos available. The reason for no electric freights between Brisbane-Rocky is because they've all been converted to coal running compared to when they were built for only running goods/passengers.

Edit: added Tennyson as an unwired location.

Moolabin on the Tennyson section is wired with the reception and departure sigings still either energised or capable of being energised and the eastern end of Acacia Ridge still has overhead capable of being energised.
At both Moolabin and Acacia Ridge the shunting movements are by necessity carried out by diesel locomotives.
The through running of diesels under the wires is more about convenience than efficency,
There was a short term need for additional electric locos for coal haulage and the 3900 class locos were reallocated for coal haulage, most were modified for the use on lower speed coal services.  Most are currently stored out of service due to the introduction of the more powerful 3700 and 3800 class locos.
The 3900's would seem to be destined either for rebuilds as 3700 class type locos or the scrappers torch, they could be reconfigured back to the original 3900 class configuration, but these still have DC traction equipment and are ageing units, rebuilding along the lines of a general service version of the 3700 class with AC traction equipment is a viable option.
From an operational point the electrification needs to be extended to provide a costal link between the northern and southern electrifications, to gain the maximum advantage from this extension of electrification would require a bypass of Rockhampton to avoid street running, improving the alignment between Rockhampton and Mackay, extending crossing loops and a number of new bridges to improve the wet season reliability of the line with more of the same needed between Mackay and Townsville.
The diesel tilts could then be replaced with a new generation of electric tilts and be redeployed to operate a shuttle between Townsville and Cairns and the Townsville - Mt Isa and Brisbane - Charleville Westerlander services.
There will remain a need for a loco hauled train to operate more tourist oriented services such as the Queenslander and the Spirit of the Outback.
 

[somebody]

Most are currently stored out of service due to the introduction of the more powerful 3700 and 3800 class locos.

That's what I thought.  No one has any interest in whatever mods are needed to return them to service?

[Golliwog]

Simon, HTG basically gave the explanation that I knew would be the answer to my questions, but I didn't know the specifics so any answer I gave myself would have been of poor quality.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Moolabin on the Tennyson section is wired with the reception and departure sigings still either energised or capable of being energised and the eastern end of Acacia Ridge still has overhead capable of being energised.

Yeah. I should have added that they haven't been energised from last time I heard. PN locos at Tennyson are both the shunt loco and the loco that takes the load to another destination. Since they operate past Rocky that effectivly rules them out for operating any type of electric loco.

That's what I thought.  No one has any interest in whatever mods are needed to return them to service?

There's interest but then theres the cost involved. Alot of fundamental parts were modified, removed or replaced during refurb to be a coal train. Then the age of the loco and what its done in the past comes along. The locos would have taken a pounding operating on the coal fields.

[mufreight]

Moolabin on the Tennyson section is wired with the reception and departure sigings still either energised or capable of being energised and the eastern end of Acacia Ridge still has overhead capable of being energised.

Yeah. I should have added that they haven't been energised from last time I heard. PN locos at Tennyson are both the shunt loco and the loco that takes the load to another destination. Since they operate past Rocky that effectivly rules them out for operating any type of electric loco.

That's what I thought.  No one has any interest in whatever mods are needed to return them to service?

There's interest but then theres the cost involved. Alot of fundamental parts were modified, removed or replaced during refurb to be a coal train. Then the age of the loco and what its done in the past comes along. The locos would have taken a pounding operating on the coal fields.

PN do not have any electric locos usable for main line general freight haulage, it would be quite simple to change over locos at Rockhampton on their northern general freight intermodal services.

[colinw]

AFAIK, 11 of the 3900 class did not receive the coal conversion and could be relatively quickly returned to service on the NCL.  The main stumbling block preventing this happening is their lack of ATP, thus they are not available for Driver Only Operation.  The 3900s (along with the ICE sets) were fitted with the previous generation ATP system, called ATC, which has now been decommissioned.  The ICE sets have had ATP fitted.

A brief bit of history.  In 1989, in the dying days of the National Party Government, extension of mainline electrification to both Toowoomba and Townsville was announced. The incoming Labor administration cancelled the project and instead embarked on a program of deviations to straighten out some of the worst bits of the NCL.

The new Cairns station, under the Cairns Central shopping centre, was designed with sufficient clearances to accommodate 25KV AC electrification if it ever reaches Cairns.

IMHO if electric locos do return to the NCL, it will be in the form of something akin to the new Siemens 3800 class units.

[somebody]

The main stumbling block preventing this happening is their lack of ATP, thus they are not available for Driver Only Operation.  

That rings a bell with me.  Is the difference between the cost of the diesel and the electricity less than the cost of the second person?  Seems surprising that it would be that way, although the short trains do increase the numbers of second people which would be required.

[HappyTrainGuy]

AFAIK, 11 of the 3900 class did not receive the coal conversion and could be relatively quickly returned to service on the NCL.  The main stumbling block preventing this happening is their lack of ATP, thus they are not available for Driver Only Operation.  The 3900s (along with the ICE sets) were fitted with the previous generation ATP system, called ATC, which has now been decommissioned.  The ICE sets have had ATP fitted.

6 or 7 have also been written off due to damage IIRC unless I've mixed the numbers with the 3500/3600 classes.

[colinw]

AFAIK the only 3900 that has been scrapped was 3902, which was damaged in the head-on between 3901 & 3902 between Beerburrum & Elimbah.

3901 was returned to service, as was 3906 after the Petrie derailment.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Wasn't 3017 written off after a head on at Caboolture? (Its amusing that considering that loco has caught on fire, cleaned up utes and bolders, been involved in the Mayne EMU28 derailment and had a head on with 3906 - which then went on to write off units from EMU05 and EMU60). I think 3927, 3246, 3205 was involved in a coal derailment which heavily damaged 3927 on both sides and I think a couple others were written off when it hit a washout and ended up partly submerged in floodwaters. I'll have to check when I get home.

[colinw]

Quite possibly.  I've heard very little about the class since they went to the coalfields.

In any case, I think the chance of them returning for use on the NCL is practically nil.  A new class of electric loco is far more likely, but even that is years off IMHO.

[mufreight]

The 3900's could be fitted out with ATP to enable their use on driver only operation, but they would still be old locos, far better that they be used as the platforms for rebuilds and upgraded with AC traction and control equipment as were the 3100 and 3200 class which have been rebuilt as 3700 class.
To gain the maximum benefit of such locos will require that their area of operation be expanded at least as far as Mackay and that crossing loops be extended to cater for the heavier (and longer) trains that these locos would be capable of hauling.
The use of such upgraded locos and realignment of the line north of Rockhampton would see a reduction in transit time that would make rail more competitive with road as well as reducing operating costs.
The increasing cost of fuel will over time make the stringing of overhead at least as far as Townsville necessicary to contain freight costs to and from the north.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I couldn't find the info I was after regarding their status pre 2008 but their around here somewhere haha.

Here's an aerial photo of one of the derailments I was thinking of. The loco with the arrow is 3548. For those that might not know in the hours leading up to the derailment 103mm was officially recorded by BOM but locals reported that around double that (175-200mm) had actually fallen in the area. At around 1.40am in heavy rain the fully loaded 102 car coal train hit a washout. The first two locos and a number of coal cars derailed into rising floodwaters. While they were waiting in waist high water to be rescued the crew watched the track moving around and the power poles falling over. A weather delayed rescue chopper flew to a nearby hospital where it then waited again for the rain and wind to die down and until there was better light available for the piolts to attempt a rescue. A boat was sent out to rescue the two drivers around 4-4.30 but was unsuccessful. Around 6-7am they were finally rescued by a chopper.

[colinw]

Ouch!!!