Fixed fares on the go to increase ...

[BrizCommuter]

The incidences of faulty readers are hardly endemic. Besides, if someone encounters a faulty reader and is charged a fixed fare, they are entitled to a refund.

But they may also be stranded with no money, and a negative balance on their go card, unable to make a transfer, or start another journey.

[Gazza]

Surfrail, so does that mean if you want to avoid the barriers you just go out via the lift, or does the lift point inwards?

But they may also be stranded with no money, and a negative balance on their go card, unable to make a transfer, or start another journey.

http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/go-card/auto-top-up

[longboi]

The incidences of faulty readers are hardly endemic. Besides, if someone encounters a faulty reader and is charged a fixed fare, they are entitled to a refund.

But they may also be stranded with no money, and a negative balance on their go card, unable to make a transfer, or start another journey.

In that situation there are plenty of opportunities to top-up or otherwise buy a paper ticket. Again, those kinds of incidences are the exception, not the rule.

[Golliwog]

Also, does anyone know what pops up on a ticket inspectors card reader screen? I know they get student card details, but do they get anything about balance history? Would they be able to tell if someones card had only just run out, or would that be a breach of privacy rules? I think that the latter may be the case.

[dwb]

The incidences of faulty readers are hardly endemic. Besides, if someone encounters a faulty reader and is charged a fixed fare, they are entitled to a refund.

But they may also be stranded with no money, and a negative balance on their go card, unable to make a transfer, or start another journey.

In that situation there are plenty of opportunities to top-up or otherwise buy a paper ticket. Again, those kinds of incidences are the exception, not the rule.

I really don't see why operators like BCC shouldn't have to take cash... at least say a fixed recharge of $20. I realise this is probably for the safety of drivers to reduce cashloads, but I'm sure they could install little one way safes, or even have cash collectors. There are so many buses and lots of bus passengers just use buses, and don't necessarily go anywhere near a busway station or railway station. Other than the internet their charge methods are limited, for instance Go has no where near the recharge points of prepaid mobile telephone.

[longboi]

Also, does anyone know what pops up on a ticket inspectors card reader screen? I know they get student card details, but do they get anything about balance history? Would they be able to tell if someones card had only just run out, or would that be a breach of privacy rules? I think that the latter may be the case.

I'm under the impression that go card history is available on the handheld readers.

[SurfRail]

Surfrail, so does that mean if you want to avoid the barriers you just go out via the lift, or does the lift point inwards?

Stairs up to the platform are at the top and bottom of my diagram, so the lift entrance is inside the paid-up area.

How they plan to accommodate tourists buying tickets to the airport (which can't be purchased on board buses) is beyond me when the ticket office will be upstairs - unless they are planning to install a window downstairs a la Coomera.  Putting a single AVVM downstairs seems a bit of a slap in the face.

[Golliwog]

The incidences of faulty readers are hardly endemic. Besides, if someone encounters a faulty reader and is charged a fixed fare, they are entitled to a refund.

But they may also be stranded with no money, and a negative balance on their go card, unable to make a transfer, or start another journey.

In that situation there are plenty of opportunities to top-up or otherwise buy a paper ticket. Again, those kinds of incidences are the exception, not the rule.

I really don't see why operators like BCC shouldn't have to take cash... at least say a fixed recharge of $20. I realise this is probably for the safety of drivers to reduce cashloads, but I'm sure they could install little one way safes, or even have cash collectors. There are so many buses and lots of bus passengers just use buses, and don't necessarily go anywhere near a busway station or railway station. Other than the internet their charge methods are limited, for instance Go has no where near the recharge points of prepaid mobile telephone.

They had something like that in Nottingham, my complaints were that you needed the exact fare as drivers couldn't give change, and the system couldn't take notes. If you only had a note your only hope was that another passenger might have enough change to swap.

[somebody]

The incidences of faulty readers are hardly endemic. Besides, if someone encounters a faulty reader and is charged a fixed fare, they are entitled to a refund.

But they may also be stranded with no money, and a negative balance on their go card, unable to make a transfer, or start another journey.

Fairly sure I have been able to touch on/transfer with a negative balance.

[BrizCommuter]

The incidences of faulty readers are hardly endemic. Besides, if someone encounters a faulty reader and is charged a fixed fare, they are entitled to a refund.

But they may also be stranded with no money, and a negative balance on their go card, unable to make a transfer, or start another journey.

Fairly sure I have been able to touch on/transfer with a negative balance.

But after a penalty fare, as that would start a new journey instead of a transfer?

[somebody]

But after a penalty fare, as that would start a new journey instead of a transfer?

Probably not, but I have touched on after a penalty fare and had it be a continuation.  You are deemed to have paid a 1 zone fare in the zone you cop the penalty in.  However, if you touch on in zone 3, don't touch off and try to touch on again in zone 1 (or 5+) that would be a new journey.

[ozbob]

Would anyone set out to design a system that fails 1 in every 29 uses?  Some of these failures may well be deliberate, but there is a problem with smart card systems. Some users stuggle with them.

Intersting article from London. Oyster card is the same essentially as the go card.  Their fixed fare rate seems to be around 2%.  This may be what the go card may well end up.

http://www.theenquirer.co.uk/Commuters+fined+millions+in+Oyster+card+penalty+fares%20id=4565

Commuters fined millions in Oyster card penalty fares

OysterCOMMUTERS are racking up millions in unjustified penalty fares using Oyster cards across the rail network.

East London houses some of the worst instances with the Barking to Liverpool Street overground rail line generating more than £2million in penalty fares for operator National Express East Anglia last year.

Liverpool Street also makes the top five most costly underground stops for commuters with £670,000 generated in penalty fares for Transport for London in 2010.

Last year more than 14,000 'incomplete journeys' were recorded across the London network netting train operators a whopping £61million in maximum penalty fares.

The charges come when passengers using an Oyster card fail to touch in or touch out on their journey and incur a penalty maximum fare - although a quarter of passengers stung with a maximum penalty fare are later refunded on appeal.

Liberal Democrat London Assembly leader, Caroline Pidgeon said: "This level of overcharging is totally unacceptable.

"There is something very seriously wrong when each and every week of the year Londoners are ripped off by more than £1 million.

"Of course in some cases passengers might forget to touch in and touch out, but such huge levels of overcharging clearly demonstrate that there are some structural problems with how Oyster is operating. It is clear that not enough is being done to ensure the machines and the technology are working properly.

"TfL also need to take immediate steps to make it far easier for people to be able to claim a refund when they have been overcharged.

"Above all else the levels of overcharging occurring need to be regularly published at every station, so that passengers are alerted to this serious problem."

A TfL spokesperson defended the charges claiming 80 per cent of the maximum fares charged are what customers would have had to pay if they had validated their journey by touching in or out at the station.

"Maximum fares are not overcharges. We have maximum fares in place to ensure customers validate their journeys or we would be open to widespread fare evasion across our network. We are seeing the number of incomplete journeys falling - just two per cent of journeys on the TfL network are left incomplete and we are confident that the Oyster system, which has transformed the way people pay for travel, is charging correctly.

"If a customer fails to touch in or out they are charged a maximum fare however up to 80 per cent of those maximum fares would have been payable had passengers touched out correctly.

"Clearly any passenger who believes they have been incorrectly charged a maximum fare should contact us to apply for a refund via the Oyster helpline or station ticket offices."

Date published: 02/03/2011 14:43:48

Sound familiar?

[ozbob]

Another article ..

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/bargains-and-rip-offs/article.html?in_article_id=524072&in_page_id=5

3.6m commuters 'fined' for Oyster card errors
By Jill Reilly
1 March 2011

An estimated 3.6m travellers a year are being incorrectly 'fined' for not touching their Oyster cards in or out properly.

Refunds of about £20m were issued by Transport for London as it admitted one in four travellers were charged through no fault of their own.

While TfL said they received refunds automatically or as soon as they complained at a ticket office, it is believed millions of people may not realise they have been charged too much.

In 2010, £60m was taken by TfL for penalty fares – £30m on the Tube, £24m on the railways, and nearly £6million on the DLR and London Overground networks.

The penalty for each commuter is usually £6 – the equivalent of a zones 1-6 single peak journey which is equal to riding from central London to a zone six station such as Heathrow.

This applies even if a commuter has travelled only a few stops in zone one.

Commuters have cited computer errors, a lack of gates at some stations and broken equipment as reasons they have faced overpayment.

Those travelling through Waterloo railway station are most likely to pick up penalty fares on their Oyster card, according to new figures from TfL.

Last year, travellers at the station were 'overcharged' by £2.5m. On the Underground, the worst offender was Bank station which charged £1.3m in penalty charges.

Figures show 40,000 people a day are experiencing penalty fares by TfL and railway companies.

A TfL spokeswoman said: 'We have maximum fares in place to ensure customers validate their journeys or we would be open to widespread fare evasion across our network.'

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/bargains-and-rip-offs/article.html?in_article_id=524072&in_page_id=5#ixzz1MxmRVMC3

both the articles above seems to suggest that 1 in 4 fixed fares are being refunded on the Oyster.  That is a lot higher than the go card rate of 1 in 90 ....

Expect that to change a lot with the increases in the fixed fares. The fixed fare on the Oyster is hefty, and now that the go card is a greater amount from May 30 (and considering that the bulk of journeys on TL are 1 and 2 zones) people will really start to notice their money disappearing.

[Gazza]

Forgetting to touch off is like forgetting to flush the toilet, or forgetting to turn the toaster off, or forgetting to put the park brake on.

The nature of our system is that we need to have touch off's because flat fare isn't practical on a network our size.
Forgetful/Careless people just can't be helped.

[Golliwog]

There was a TL greenie handing out leaflets about this at Central when I went through. On one side was the details of the fixed fare change and why they're doing it. And on the other was details of how to get a fixed fare changed if it was charged incorrectly and also listed a bunch of circumstances which they would refund it. One they mention was apparently if you're waiting for a train and its late and you decide to abandon the train trip and catch bus/drive/whatever but you're outside the fare cancelation for free window and get charged, you can get that fixed. They also make a point that you can do it online as well.

[Gazza]

But they may also be stranded with no money, and a negative balance on their go card, unable to make a transfer, or start another journey.

There's another point worth making on this too.
You don't have to run your credit right down to the bare minimum and live on the edge, it's ok to be prudent and never let it drop below $10 or whatever before recharging.
If people did that, the situation above wouldn't happen.

Always makes me laugh when people think of really extreme situations that very few people will actually get into, and then try and use that as reasoning for not making a change (Gotta love that Qld attitude     )

Tough bikkies basically, govt's gotta look after revenue so the system is at least a tad viable, and if that's at the expense of the careless then so be it.

[dwb]

Another article ..

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/bargains-and-rip-offs/article.html?in_article_id=524072&in_page_id=5

3.6m commuters 'fined' for Oyster card errors
By Jill Reilly
1 March 2011

An estimated 3.6m travellers a year are being incorrectly 'fined' for not touching their Oyster cards in or out properly.

Refunds of about £20m were issued by Transport for London as it admitted one in four travellers were charged through no fault of their own.

While TfL said they received refunds automatically or as soon as they complained at a ticket office, it is believed millions of people may not realise they have been charged too much.

In 2010, £60m was taken by TfL for penalty fares – £30m on the Tube, £24m on the railways, and nearly £6million on the DLR and London Overground networks.

The penalty for each commuter is usually £6 – the equivalent of a zones 1-6 single peak journey which is equal to riding from central London to a zone six station such as Heathrow.

This applies even if a commuter has travelled only a few stops in zone one.

Commuters have cited computer errors, a lack of gates at some stations and broken equipment as reasons they have faced overpayment.

Those travelling through Waterloo railway station are most likely to pick up penalty fares on their Oyster card, according to new figures from TfL.

Last year, travellers at the station were 'overcharged' by £2.5m. On the Underground, the worst offender was Bank station which charged £1.3m in penalty charges.

Figures show 40,000 people a day are experiencing penalty fares by TfL and railway companies.

A TfL spokeswoman said: 'We have maximum fares in place to ensure customers validate their journeys or we would be open to widespread fare evasion across our network.'

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/bargains-and-rip-offs/article.html?in_article_id=524072&in_page_id=5#ixzz1MxmRVMC3

both the articles above seems to suggest that 1 in 4 fixed fares are being refunded on the Oyster.  That is a lot higher than the go card rate of 1 in 90 ....

Expect that to change a lot with the increases in the fixed fares. The fixed fare on the Oyster is hefty, and now that the go card is a greater amount from May 30 (and considering that the bulk of journeys on TL are 1 and 2 zones) people will really start to notice their money disappearing.

Mostly sounds like a media beat up to me.

One of the reasons, at least why DLR has higher levels of fixed fares, is that you must do a transfer tag in the tube pedestrian tunnels. This is signed very well, but still I'm assuming some miss it or forget. I would assume a similar situation would arise in the programming if we were to implement a closed/gated station at KGS for example. If you transfered from bus to bus there you would probably need a transfer tag due to route complexities.

[ozbob]

From the Courier Mail click here!

TransLink go card penalty doubles to $10 for not 'touching off' buses, trains and ferries

TransLink go card penalty doubles to $10 for not 'touching off' buses, trains and ferries

   by Robyn Ironside
   From: The Courier-Mail
   May 30, 2011 12:00AM

GO CARD users who fail to "touch off" will be slugged with a $10 fee from today, even though nearly 800 commuters a week are being overcharged by the system.

The new fixed fare is double the previous penalty to deter some long-haul commuters from deliberately failing to touch off because their fare is more than the fine. But commuters claim the higher fee will hurt those who do the right thing but are let down by faults in the system.

"Many users are not aware that they are actually copping fixed fares due to system failures, particularly on the bus system," said Robert Dow from commuter advocacy group Back on Track.

"Some users also cannot be bothered with the claim process. But the increase in fixed fares may well change that."

He said some of the problems experienced by commuters included "inaudible beeps" indicating they had touched off and glare or moisture on the go card reader screens, making them difficult to see.TransLink has confirmed it received 9341 requests for adjustments in the first three months of this year, which included eight days of free public transport following the January floods.

Spokesman Andrew Berkman urged customers to take extra care when touching on and off public transport from today.

"The change will target those who were ripping off honest users by taking advantage of the lower fixed fares," he said.

"Customers can check their go card by checking the reader on the bus or ferry, or at the train station; at a ticket machine; online for those who have registered their go card or over the phone."

He denied the machines were prone to failure with card readers at stations operating 99.7 per cent of the time, and 99.4 per cent in buses and ferries.

Mr Dow called for "latitude to be given to go card users who received multiple fixed fares".

"They might find themselves short on funds on their go card and at risk of a fare evasion offence."

The penalty for failing to touch off in buses or ferries will rise to $5 today, and to $10 at train stations.

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Go Card users warned to watch out

Go Card users warned to watch out
Daniel Hurst
May 30, 2011 - 5:39AM

Go Card users have been urged to regularly check their balances for mistakes as transport authorities today ramp up penalties for incorrect use.

From today, the penalty for smartcard users who fail to touch on or off properly on the railway network doubles, while bus and ferry passengers also face steeper penalties.

The "fixed fare" penalty is now $10 for adult railway passengers, $5 for bus and ferry users and $30 for people riding the Airtrain, in a measure the state government says will target repeat fare evaders.

But commuter lobby group Rail Back on Track called on users to check their usage to ensure any errors didn't end up costing them money.

Spokesman Robert Dow said people charged the wrong amount should request an adjustment.

"Currently 3.5 per cent of all trips are resulting in a fixed fare but only 0.04 per cent are actually being claimed back," he said.

"What that means is for every 90 fixed fares there's only one adjustment. That's quite amazing."

Mr Dow said although some of the fixed fares undoubtedly flowed from fare evasion, the figures also suggested that many people were unaware of being charged incorrect amounts.

He predicted the increases in fixed fares from today would result in more people noticing when they had been wrongly charged.

"I think the message is just to make sure people are alert when they touch on or off and if they do get a fixed fare they can get a fare adjustment," he said.

"We'd encourage people to regularly check their Go Card history."

People with registered Go Cards can check their histories by logging on to the TransLink website. Otherwise, cards can be checked at Go Card top up machines at major rail and bus stations.

Last week, Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk said the majority of customers did the right thing, but others were being dishonest.

"TransLink advise fare evaders cost the government approximately $18 million in lost revenue each year," she said in a statement.

"TransLink studies show about 70,000 trips a month are fare evaders taking advantage of the low penalty rate by deliberately not touching off at the end of their journey."

TransLink chief Peter Strachan said customers who made an honest mistake or were unable to touch off could go online or phone up to request an adjustment.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/go-card-users-warned-to-watch-out-20110529-1fau2.html#ixzz1NlwNqh28

[ozbob]

From 612 ABC Brisbane Breakfast with Spencer Howson

--> here!

Penalty for not touching-off Go Card doubles to $10 fare

30 May 2011 , 7:57 AM by Spencer Howson

From today, if you forget or neglect to swipe off your Go Card, the penalty is doubule what it was.

It's now $10 for trains ($5 concession) and $5 for buses and ferries (42.50 concession).

Andrew Berkman is a spokesperson for Translink:

My blog comment:

It is fair to say that not all go users who are receiving fixed fares are 'fare evaders'.  Far from it.  I have seen many go card histories from users who were not aware that they have had fixed fares, many times due to errors with the system and use.  In fact according to the latest TransLink Tracker around 3.5% of all trips on the go card resulted in a fixed fare, that is 1 in 29 trips results in a fixed fare. And only 0.04% are claimed back.  That is 1 in 90 of the fixed fares are actually claimed.  As most journeys have been 1 to 2 zones it is clear that because of the size of the previous fixed fares many users were simply not aware that they were in fact having multiple errors.  With the increase in fixed fares from today many users will suddenly find that the money is GOing very quickly.  That is why it is important to regularly check your go card history (either online if registered go card user or at a ticket machine).

There is no doubt that some of the fixed fares have been fare evasion, and TransLink has always had the ability to cancel those cards that are clearly being abused in that manner.

The problem for some users will be that if they have a series of fixed fares (and this happens) they may suddenly find themselves without funds on their go card. They could theorectically be stranded. So making sure that you check touches carefully and regularly check history is important.  Ring TransLink on 131230 or claim online through your go card login for any fare adjustments promptly.

[laughable]

Quite frankly, $10 is still too cheap. It should be the planned 1 - 23 zone penalty. Before you all start going on and on and on, Translink should really have a better refund/adjustment system for those who are charged unfairly. However, if you forget to tag off or don't look at the screen when you use your card...boo hoo. There are measures in place for you to know whats happened. Go to the AVVM and check to see whether or not your touch on/touch off has worked. Why should you do this you ask...it is your money and it is YOUR responsibilty to ensure you're tagged on. Does your mummy still dress you...why should Translink?

P.S - as stated earlier, Translink should have a better system for those overcharged unfairly and only those overcharged unfairly. I forgot doesn't and should never count

[SurfRail]

Quite frankly, $10 is still too cheap. It should be the planned 1 - 23 zone penalty. Before you all start going on and on and on, Translink should really have a better refund/adjustment system for those who are charged unfairly. However, if you forget to tag off or don't look at the screen when you use your card...boo hoo. There are measures in place for you to know whats happened. Go to the AVVM and check to see whether or not your touch on/touch off has worked. Why should you do this you ask...it is your money and it is YOUR responsibilty to ensure you're tagged on. Does your mummy still dress you...why should Translink?

P.S - as stated earlier, Translink should have a better system for those overcharged unfairly and only those overcharged unfairly. I forgot doesn't and should never count

I don't support this.  Virtually nobody travels for 23 zones.

[Golliwog]

They've put a lot into advertising the increase. I was changing buses at Buranda last night and there was an announcement over the PA telling everyone there that the fixed fares were increasing. Turns out you get a rather large echo from the tunnel.

[mufreight]

Quite frankly, $10 is still too cheap. It should be the planned 1 - 23 zone penalty. Before you all start going on and on and on, Translink should really have a better refund/adjustment system for those who are charged unfairly. However, if you forget to tag off or don't look at the screen when you use your card...boo hoo. There are measures in place for you to know whats happened. Go to the AVVM and check to see whether or not your touch on/touch off has worked. Why should you do this you ask...it is your money and it is YOUR responsibilty to ensure you're tagged on. Does your mummy still dress you...why should Translink?

P.S - as stated earlier, Translink should have a better system for those overcharged unfairly and only those overcharged unfairly. I forgot doesn't and should never count

So having posted your joke of the year perhaps you should consider the failure rate of the junk card readers that Cubic has provided, the beeps that dont and the screens that are unreadable at best even for those with reasonable vision without considering the aged who suffer varying degrees of visual and audio disability.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/06/one-where-brizcommuter-nearly-gets.html
The one where BrizCommuter nearly gets a fixed fare.

[ozbob]

Informed sources suggest that the fixed fare rate has fallen from around 1:29 to around 1:50 since the fixed fare increase.  What would be interesting to know if the rate that users seek adjustments has also improved (don't know, guess we will have to wait for the next TransLink tracker).

This is still around 2% (ie. a fixed fare results every 50 times a go card us used on average), I think it might eventually get down to around 1% and bottom out.

[Golliwog]

Would be interesting to see locational data on where this decrease has occured, ie: has it dropped significantly for those trips that were more expensive than the old fixed fare but are now cheaper than the new one? Or is it just a more general decrease. That may give an idea of what % of fixed fares are intentional and which aren't, though I would expect it to be very much a ball park figure.

[dwb]

Would be interesting to see locational data on where this decrease has occured, ie: has it dropped significantly for those trips that were more expensive than the old fixed fare but are now cheaper than the new one? Or is it just a more general decrease. That may give an idea of what % of fixed fares are intentional and which aren't, though I would expect it to be very much a ball park figure.

I think you'll find that TL know more than they are letting on, that is why they're gating so many stations.

From my daily experience with the technologically I see no reason why the fixed fare rate should be anywhere near the 1 in 29 or even 1 in 50. It's just got to be fare evasion much of the time!

[Golliwog]

Yeah, they have released some things however. IIRC, after they gated Central and Roma and made it so paper tickets only had the one gate to get swiped through, they announced that in that first week they saw a $40,000 increase in fare revenue. Pretty sure they said they got something similar when they gated the GC stations?

[SurfRail]

Pretty sure they said they got something similar when they gated the GC stations?

Although they have really eased off on this.  Gates at Nerang are often open in the mornings and are rarely staffed by the time I get back around 7:30pm, which is similar to how Helensvale and Robina have operated previously.  I don't mind especially - as long as they are staffed in the am and pm peak 7 days a week (and yes, there is an am and pm peak on weekends, just inverted).

[dwb]

Pretty sure they said they got something similar when they gated the GC stations?

Although they have really eased off on this.  Gates at Nerang are often open in the mornings and are rarely staffed by the time I get back around 7:30pm, which is similar to how Helensvale and Robina have operated previously.  I don't mind especially - as long as they are staffed in the am and pm peak 7 days a week (and yes, there is an am and pm peak on weekends, just inverted).

Interesting that they leave them open as well as unattended? Maybe this is something to do with if there is a failure - so they keep them open if not attended. Although the main fish to fry would be peak hour, I would assume there would be a fair level of out of peak fare evasion... wouldn't you?

But then it comes back to the cost, if it costs more to man it those extra hours, than you'd make in those extra hours from stamping down on fare evasion, why would you bother?

[SurfRail]

Pretty sure they said they got something similar when they gated the GC stations?

Although they have really eased off on this.  Gates at Nerang are often open in the mornings and are rarely staffed by the time I get back around 7:30pm, which is similar to how Helensvale and Robina have operated previously.  I don't mind especially - as long as they are staffed in the am and pm peak 7 days a week (and yes, there is an am and pm peak on weekends, just inverted).

Interesting that they leave them open as well as unattended? Maybe this is something to do with if there is a failure - so they keep them open if not attended. Although the main fish to fry would be peak hour, I would assume there would be a fair level of out of peak fare evasion... wouldn't you?

But then it comes back to the cost, if it costs more to man it those extra hours, than you'd make in those extra hours from stamping down on fare evasion, why would you bother?

At the moment, they are always staffed during daylight hours on weekdays, although it almost seems to be up to the particular staff's preferences as to whether the gates are open or closed.  Always open while unattended, which is logical as you need staffing for it to work properly.

I've already seen my first hurdler as well.