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What public transport should be provided for Yarrabilba?

Bus service on public roads
2 (14.3%)
Re-use rail corridor for busway
0 (0%)
Re-use rail corridor for light rail
0 (0%)
Re-open and electrify rail line
5 (35.7%)
Flexilink / taxis
0 (0%)
Re-use rail corridor for active transport (bikeway)
1 (7.1%)
Don't develop Yarrabilba at all
5 (35.7%)
Something else (please post)
1 (7.1%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: May 16, 2011, 06:37:22 PM

Author Topic: Yarrabilba?  (Read 23101 times)

colinw

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Yarrabilba?
« on: May 09, 2011, 02:19:37 PM »
This post and subsequent discussion prompts me to question the proposed satellite city at YARRABILBA, near Logan Village.

This development is one of the satellite cities being proposed by the Urban Land Development Authority, along with Ripley & Flagstone. Flagstone and Ripley are both proposed to receive electric heavy rail services. At this stage it is unclear what public transport will be provided for Yarrabilba.

The development is adjacent to the mothballed Bethania to Beaudesert railway, but as noted in the thread referenced above this may not be suitable for re-opening.  I have therefore created a poll, open for 7 days, to gauge the group's opinion as to where the Yarrabilba urban area fits into the grand scheme of things.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2011, 02:37:46 PM »
I have to say that this kind of development, where you attach a city in the middle of la la land and then connect a rail spur to it, at $100 million dollars per kilometre into the middle of nowhere gets me annoyed.

This is exactly the kind of thing that is preventing cash being spent on fixing up the current train system. When you add branches to train lines, you split the frequencies on the branches and you add conflict points, all of which makes the timetable- the most important thing- very complicated and increases the chances that the service will be low frequency.

http://www.humantransit.org/2011/02/what-rivers-teach-about-transit.html

The problem with operating a train service out to Yarrabilla is that it is going to eat up train paths on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line which already has problems with being unable to cope with 15 minute frequency all day in both directions at the same time. Running buses (or trains) to the train line and then making people change is also unattractive as they would be changing into the Beenleigh line all stops service, which if anyone has taken a ride on, is terrible because it is so slow and stops EVERYWHERE it is enough to send you crazy!!!

I would just run bus services on a busway (that could later be converted to heavy rail if required) or even piggybacking off a freeway with very long stop spacings so average high speed was possible (80 km/hour or higher) to the train line.

With all the land out at Pullenvale and along the existing Rosewood line, you really have to wonder...
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colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2011, 02:44:02 PM »
This is actually a city in the middle of la-la land without a rail spur, or a busway, or even a four lane main road. It is very much a backwater, currently occupied by some acreage housing and a lot of entirely undeveloped land.

Rail branches only halve the frequency if we persist in running all services to the city.  If you run a shuttle service then there is no need to dilute the frequency, something which Australian rail services generally fail to do, with rare exceptions like the Alamein line in Melbourne.  But as you note, the Beenleigh line is not an attractive service to feed into.

I really do not know what to make of Yarrabilba.  Unlike Ripley & Flagstone there is no clear rationale for it existing.

I'd actually rather kick the army out of Greenbank and send them out to Yarrabilba, then develop the huge Greenbank army reserve, which has the Springfield line running along its western boundary, the interstate (future Flagstone) line along its eastern boundary, and decent motorway links close by.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 02:49:13 PM by colinw »

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2011, 02:49:52 PM »
Time to search the "political party donations" database at the Australian Electoral Commission I think  ::)
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2011, 02:52:04 PM »
Quote
Rail branches only halve the frequency if we persist in running all services to the city.  If you run a shuttle service then there is no need to dilute the frequency, something which Australian rail services generally fail to do, with rare exceptions like the Alamein line in Melbourne.  But as you note, the Beenleigh line is not an attractive service to feed into.

Which has me thinking about Brisbane....
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Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2011, 05:32:36 PM »
I think there needs to be an option for "not build Yarrabilba and limit urban sprawl".

colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2011, 05:37:12 PM »
Agreed. I considered putting something like that in.  I shall do so now.  :-t

Offline #Metro

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2011, 05:45:05 PM »
Argh! I can't change my vote...
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colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2011, 05:45:55 PM »
I don't see an option to permit that.  :conf

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2011, 05:47:58 PM »
Well there are only four votes,
Perhaps lock the thread and create a new poll?
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2011, 05:50:12 PM »
I've no problem with the concept of a small city at Yarrabilba.  A city that has an independent rail service to the Brisbane CBD instead of being tacked onto another line, its own water storage and reticulation, quality bus and road links to the Gold Coast and southern Logan, strong local employment, educational, recreational and medical facilities, a structure plan that encourages high densities and active transport, is powered by renewable energy etc...

:hg

colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2011, 05:53:01 PM »
I'll PM ozbob and see if there's a way to fix it.

colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2011, 06:57:33 PM »
Ok, Ozbob has fixed it for me.  :-t  You can now click "Remove Vote" then resubmit your vote.

I'll be more careful the next time I set up a poll, must have missed checking a box somewhere.

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2011, 07:09:16 PM »
If you have already voted, and you wish to change your vote, choose the 'remove vote' option first, then when it reloads you will have all the options to choose from again for a new vote.
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Offline johnnigh

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2011, 08:45:43 PM »
Yep, Yarrabilba is going to be a city entirely self-contained: all dwellers will work there, no need for commuters to leave the community!  ;D

If you believe that (Regional plan propaganda from the developers) you'll believe anything. No Yarrabilba!  :pr

Offline O_128

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2011, 11:15:58 PM »
Yep, Yarrabilba is going to be a city entirely self-contained: all dwellers will work there, no need for commuters to leave the community!  ;D

If you believe that (Regional plan propaganda from the developers) you'll believe anything. No Yarrabilba!  :pr

Just like, north lakes, forest lake and every other stupid housing estate, Springfield being the exception as in 20 years i expect it to have a bigger CBD than ipswich with a sizable amount of gov departments moved there.
"Where else but Queensland?"

colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2011, 08:02:59 AM »
Just like, north lakes, forest lake and every other stupid housing estate, Springfield being the exception as in 20 years i expect it to have a bigger CBD than ipswich with a sizable amount of gov departments moved there.

The Government's Conn'ing QLD 2031 therefore proposes to build a Ripley spur line to Ipswich, and not develop the Springfield to Ripley part of the rail corridor within 20 years.  This turns Ripley into the end of a very circuitous route from Brisbane, rather than another town on a second Brisbane to Ipswich main-line.  As our American cousins say, "Go Figure!".

colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2011, 08:50:34 AM »
The more I think about it, the more concerned I am by these proposed developments, with the possible exception of Ripley if done properly.

Yarrabilba is nowhere near any decent infrastructure, and the disused rail line past it is only marginally suitable for re-use.

Flagstone is at least on a high quality rail alignment, but developing it still requires building the equivalent of another Ipswich or Cleveland line, and without CRR a rail line down the interstate corridor will not be feasible due to infrastructure constraints in the city.

Ripley at least has the advantage of being on an extension of the Springfield line, so won't require any further branching of services.  Still, I do not like the current idea of extending the rail to Ripley from Ipswich, rather than building the full loop.

I tend to agree with TramTrain that we should be making better use of the land west of Ipswich, and the untapped potential of the Rosewood line.  That combined with good quality development of Ripley & Springfield would be, in my opinion, a much saner strategy than plopping tens of thousands of people way down the interstate line or out in the sticks beyond Logan Village.

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2011, 08:58:32 AM »
Quote
Yep, Yarrabilba is going to be a city entirely self-contained: all dwellers will work there, no need for commuters to leave the community!  Grin

If you believe that (Regional plan propaganda from the developers) you'll believe anything. No Yarrabilba!  protest

"Urban Jails" is what I call this philosophy. And it's rubbish too. People have cars and will use them. Is the Sunshine Coast self contained? Is the Gold Coast self contained? Is Ipswich self contained? The answer is no, no and no. Heaps of people get up every morning and start driving to Brisbane CBD because that's where the high paying jobs are.

These places do not have proper CBDs with high paying jobs. And so people will start driving and the future residents of that community will start agitating for rail which is going to cost $100 million + PER KILOMETRE for a line that could easily lock up 2-3 billion dollars and more train paths for the Beenleigh/Gold Coast lines and split frequencies that could alternatively be spent on fixing up the current system and the truly shocking frequencies of 30 minutes from stations where you can see the CBD from the platform!
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Offline O_128

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2011, 10:11:58 AM »
Just like, north lakes, forest lake and every other stupid housing estate, Springfield being the exception as in 20 years i expect it to have a bigger CBD than ipswich with a sizable amount of gov departments moved there.

The Government's Conn'ing QLD 2031 therefore proposes to build a Ripley spur line to Ipswich, and not develop the Springfield to Ripley part of the rail corridor within 20 years.  This turns Ripley into the end of a very circuitous route from Brisbane, rather than another town on a second Brisbane to Ipswich main-line.  As our American cousins say, "Go Figure!".

Cleveland mark 2 lol
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2011, 10:37:57 AM »
"Urban Jails" is what I call this philosophy. And it's rubbish too. People have cars and will use them. Is the Sunshine Coast self contained? Is the Gold Coast self contained? Is Ipswich self contained? The answer is no, no and no. Heaps of people get up every morning and start driving to Brisbane CBD because that's where the high paying jobs are.

I really think you are drawing a long bow with the Gold Coast.  Brisbane happens to be a (bigger) capital city located 80km up the road, so there is always going to be commuter traffic (myself included), but to say the Gold Coast is some dormitory suburb like the southern Sunshine Coast and offers no high-paying employment is a bit of a furphy.

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2011, 10:40:57 AM »
I am not disputing that there aren't high paying jobs on the gold coast. There certainly are, what I am saying is that the claims that these areas are going to be self-contained is just nonsense.

The reason why so many people are driving to Brisbane are because the jobs are in the Brisbane CBD and they pay really really well.
A person will only drive 80 km if pay >>>> commute time and costs

How many high paying jobs are going to be out at Yarrabilla? Will it even have a CBD???
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colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2011, 11:04:35 AM »
http://www.yarrabilba.com.au/

Says sweet F.A. about transport, and a few mealy mouthed words about jobs.

Makes the spurious claim that it is 15 minutes from Yatala, Beenleigh & Logan Central.  Yeah right, maybe at midnight if you speed and run all the red lights.

Public transport is not mentioned at all.

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2011, 11:21:36 AM »
Found this at the ULDA site, but says nothing really ..

http://www.ulda.qld.gov.au/01_cms/details.asp?ID=395

Quote
What is the vision for Yarrabilba?

Yarrabilba will be a self-contained new town that will provide an attractive lifestyle in a well designed urban community for up to 50,000 people in 20,000 dwellings. Yarrabilba achieves the potential identified in the South East Queensland Regional Plan 2009-2031, providing a wide range of housing choices and employment opportunities, supported by community services and public transport.

How?
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colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2011, 11:26:25 AM »
How?
That is the key question.

Yarrabilba's choices are:

- buses along a twisty, windy, two lane road that feeds into a 70 km/h arterial road which is chock full of traffic lights.
- do something with a half decent, but disused rail corridor, which has a few km of bad alignment at the Bethania end.

Hence the poll.

I can see that the poll is strongly saying not to develop the area.  I'm afraid that horse has already bolted, and it is happening.  Which leaves us with anything up to 40,000 people in an area which doesn't even have a 4 lane road yet.

I strongly feel that this is by far the worst of the ULDA's development areas. My daughter goes to Canterbury College, and from what we see the roads in the area aren't even coping with having a big school there and the Woodlands development at Waterford, let alone another 40,000 people out at Logan Village. Thankfully the school has a reasonably good bus service, including a run which meets trains at Bethania.

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2011, 11:32:16 AM »
Blast from the past ... http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4128.0

================

Media Release 22 July 2010
 
SEQ:  2010 Update to the SEQIPP welcome

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has welcomed the renewed commitment to the sensible 'way forward' as indicated in the latest update to the South East Queensland Infrastructure Plan and Program (SEQIPP) (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Rail is going to be the way forward for transport in Queensland. Sustainable, economically sound and safe it is time we broke the shackles of the road centric mantra and got on with real transport solutions."

"The SEQIPP as updated includes a number of significant rail projects perhaps to be constructed in the distant future.  What is needed is to turn plans into the reality.  The Cross River Rail project needs to be fast tracked.  The railway line from Petri to Kippa-Ring should be another priority.  We welcome the immediate commitment to continue with the double track railway from Richlands to Springfield, but similarly the long awaited railway to Kippa-Ring needs to be moved forward.  The final section of single line on the Gold Coast railway must be an urgent track amplification project as the demands on this line are increasing significantly."

"A major failing of the SEQIPP is the lack of proper forward transport planning to support the plans to build new communities at Yarrabilba and Flagstone (2).  The SEQIPP needs a revision to plan for rail to support these communities.  Ripley valley is on a planned rail corridor, but the communities at Yarrabilba and Flagstone will be transport poor and a failure otherwise."

Reference:

1.  http://www.dip.qld.gov.au/seqipp

2.  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4007.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2011, 11:42:05 AM »
It may be time to ask some hard questions...
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Offline O_128

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2011, 12:27:21 PM »
"Urban Jails" is what I call this philosophy. And it's rubbish too. People have cars and will use them. Is the Sunshine Coast self contained? Is the Gold Coast self contained? Is Ipswich self contained? The answer is no, no and no. Heaps of people get up every morning and start driving to Brisbane CBD because that's where the high paying jobs are.

I really think you are drawing a long bow with the Gold Coast.  Brisbane happens to be a (bigger) capital city located 80km up the road, so there is always going to be commuter traffic (myself included), but to say the Gold Coast is some dormitory suburb like the southern Sunshine Coast and offers no high-paying employment is a bit of a furphy.

At least the gold coast is getting to the stage where it can start supporting itself job wise. There are a lot of commercial works happening at robina and I would expect to see office towers eventually along surfers. The sunshine coast deserves what it has with residents up in arms at every kind of development.


Lets face it Yarabilba is going to be a housing estate and if we follow the trend of the springfield line if we are lucky there might be rail out there by 2031.

What i dont get is why the developers dont build the rail. If I was the government I would give them the land in return for a  rail line being built.

"Yarrabilba is centrally positioned in the well-serviced and rapidly expanding Brisbane-Gold Coast growth corridor. "
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 12:32:38 PM by O_128 »
"Where else but Queensland?"

colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2011, 12:50:08 PM »
"Yarrabilba is centrally positioned in the well-serviced and rapidly expanding Brisbane-Gold Coast growth corridor. "

Yes, they would say that. It is nothing of the sort. It is tucked away out to the west of Beenleigh, in an area with no good transport infrastructure.

Click here.

The right of way of the former Logan Village to Canungra railway, closed 1955, is clearly visible on this view, to east of the Waterford - Tamborine road, beyond the power lines.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2011, 01:03:42 PM »
I am not disputing that there aren't high paying jobs on the gold coast. There certainly are, what I am saying is that the claims that these areas are going to be self-contained is just nonsense.

Once again, not true.  Plenty of commuting going on in both directions last I checked, including by rail.

The Gold Coast is a city in its own right, with a distinct economy and population base, which is why comparisons to Ipswich and the Sunshine Coast are dubious at best. 

So, I shall assume that when you say "these areas" above, you are referring to the 3 "new cities".

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2011, 01:10:25 PM »
My late Grandfather, and my Uncle travelled on one of the last trains to Canungra.  My Uncle remembers it well, on an platform at the end of a carriage for the somewhat scenic run into Canungra.  I  was based at Canungra in the Army for a short time in 1969 and did some bush bashing along the old line at the time.  Bits of it can be located still today.

Some photographs from a visit in 2002, at Boyland, on the old line between Logan Village and Canungra.







Photographs R Dow 2002

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Offline mufreight

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2011, 04:17:59 PM »
The western section of the existing rail coridor with a realignment of the Bethania end of the line, yes the resumptions needed will cause screams but the future price that will be paid for the pathetic planning will be even greater.
There is also the alternative of a new greenfield line from Yarrabilba running accross to the standard gauge corridor then along that corridor parallel to the SG line into Acacia Ridge and connecting with the ng system at Sailsbury.
Expensive but it presents a greenfield option with faster transit times into the Brisbane region and would service a fresh collection area that currently is deliquent in terms of public transport.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2011, 04:53:40 PM »
New rail corridors or nothing.  I just don't see the point otherwise.

I would actually like to see something radical here - a new line which just connects Springfield, the Flagstone UDA, Yarrabilba and Coomera.

The last thing you need is for this to be a dormitory suburb, so why should you be encouraging people to travel into the CBD by putting a direct train on?  However, you can put a direct train on to other major employment/education/retail/medical centres (principally Springfield but also in future Coomera) with their own direction connections to the CBD (principally Flagstone) without buggering up the rest of the network.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 05:12:52 PM by SurfRail »

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2011, 04:55:51 PM »
At the risk of being labelled an 'ideologue',  but I can live with 'whacky dude'   ...   :-c :hg

+1
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colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2011, 05:36:36 PM »
I did consider suggesting that if the Bethania to Logan Village line was re-opened, the southern leg of the angle at Bethania be used, and services from Yarrabilba run through to the local activity centre at Beenleigh.  This would require more than the present 2 platforms at Beenleigh, and probably continuation of triplication all the way to Beenleigh as well.  Advantage would be single seat journey to Beenleigh, and interchange with Gold Coast service.

I'm a "whacky dude" too.  :hg :-r

The thing is, this development IS going ahead, and is going to be a transport nightmare if some kind of "Class A" right of way cannot be provided.  The only such ROW that exists is the former Beaudesert branch, with all of its problems.

The alternative is greenfielding something, which would obviously provide the superior outcome.

I suspect that we will see a motorway standard road into the area emerge on the agenda in coming years.  If that happens, maybe it can be done as a road/rail project.  Or road/busway.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 05:44:04 PM by colinw »

Offline #Metro

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2011, 07:15:50 PM »
Whatever gets built, DO NOT SPLIT THE FREQUENCY

http://www.humantransit.org/2011/02/basics-branching-or-how-transit-is-like-a-river.html

Quote
To sum up, we should suspicious whenever we see a branch drawn as though one line can effortlessly divide into two equal lines.  Often, such a branch will be called an extension, a very slightly misleading word because it suggests that an existing, known quantity of service is being extended.  In fact, a branch always means one of three things.  Either

    points beyond the branching point have less frequent service or
    one of the branches operates as a shuttle, requiring a connection, or
    in a few rare cases, the train itself comes apart, with some cars proceeding along one branch and some along the other.
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colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2011, 11:23:05 AM »
This poll has now closed.

I'm reading a dual consensus from the results, being that Yarrabilba is viewed as an undesirable development, but if it does go ahead then a rail connection is what people here would rather see.

Given the complete lack of any information about transport links to Yarrabilba (unlike both Ripley & Flagstone where plans have been made public), I feel that it is worth querying the Government (or ULDA) about their plans.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2011, 11:28:46 AM »
This poll has now closed.

I'm reading a dual consensus from the results, being that Yarrabilba is viewed as an undesirable development, but if it does go ahead then a rail connection is what people here would rather see.

Given the complete lack of any information about transport links to Yarrabilba (unlike both Ripley & Flagstone where plans have been made public), I feel that it is worth querying the Government (or ULDA) about their plans.


There is some material on the TMR website actually for Yarrabilba and the region generally.  The ULDA materials are basically about getting a Gateway Motorway extension in there with rail to Beaudesert in the long term and a variety of BUZ style routes stretching between Springfield, Browns Plains, Beaudesert, Beenleigh and Loganlea.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/P/Park-Ridge-Connector.aspx
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/L/Logan-Motorway-Corridor-Strategy.aspx
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/M/Mount-Lindesay-Highway-Beaudesert-Town-Centre-Bypass.aspx
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/M/Mount-Lindesay-Highway-Rosia-Road-to-Chambers-Flat-Road.aspx
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/M/Mt-Lindesay-Beaudesert-Strategic-Transport-Network-Investigation.aspx
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/W/West-Mt-Lindesay-Development-Corridor-Major-Road-Network.aspx

colinw

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2011, 11:51:24 AM »
Thanks for those.  I was aware of some of that, but large parts of it were new to me.

This document sent shivers down my spine:
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/723d6261-c0dd-4b37-8e65-09844cd2d120/westmtlindesaydevelopmentcorridormajorroadnetworkstudy.pdf

A veritable orgy of 4 lane arterial road construction, and freeway all the way to Bromelton.  Meanwhile in other documents the proposed passenger rail to Beaudesert is "not until after 2026" (and possibly as late as 2056!), and beyond Flagstone to Beaudesert is by no means certain although at least a corridor is being preserved.

Yarrabilba itself appears to be getting some 4 lane road upgrades, maybe 120 bus services a day, and any use of the former Bethania to Beaudesert rail corridor other than as a bike/horse trail is summarily dismissed.

So, the Government's plans basically add up to a huge southward extension of sprawl, with road construction to match, a lukewarm commitment to passenger rail, and some token bus services.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Yarrabilba?
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2011, 01:02:49 PM »
Well well well... what do you know.... I saw it coming...
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
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