Brisbane's Own "PATH Train" - a link to the Port of Brisbane

[SteelPan]

Putting it out there, as a suggestion for the future - a CityTrain link to the Port of Brisbane and surrounding commercial regions - good for workers, good for strategic development - avoiding the development of an "ugly" and isolated industrial "no go" zone!

Thoughts welcome and appreciated.   :conf

[somebody]

If it can't justify a bus service, how can it get a train?

The line is unwired and has no platforms.

[#Metro]

FLEXILINK TAXIS!!!

[ozbob]

Hey SteelPan, can you expand on a bit more what you are thinking of?  Thanks ..

[BrizCommuter]

PATH mainly serves financial, business, and residential areas, not a port in the middle of nowhere.

[mufreight]

FLEXILINK TAXIS!!!

You would have to be kidding, a far preferable option considering the numbers working there would be a bus service operated between the port and Lindum station using a Mini or Midi bus providing a 24 hour service suplemented with a large bus as required to meet the loadings at shift change times.
Were such a service to be provided there should be little if any objection to the workers shift change times being moved so that they were outside of the current peak hours.
When the Port of Brisbane was first opened there were workers services to the port from pickup points at Hamilton, the city and Wynnum operated by a private operator (from memory Dunns) and paid for by the stevedoring company.

[#Metro]

We can have taxi now. Taxi can be sent on a fixed route and schedule just like a bus. We need to get over the vehicle type and think about MOBILITY- the ability to move around within a fixed time frame.

No need to pay for maintainence for new vehicles, services could depart from set interchange points such as Eagle Junction, Chermside, Carindale and Wynnum Plaza/Train stations. This could be done as a no-risk trial period to test demand. Safe and low risk for everyone.

I would not be buying anything for a trial period. That's spending money you don't need to spend right now. There is no need to do this. Just hire the vehicles out for a trial period. Look, you can even hire a minivan from Avis or car rental companies or a private bus company for a trial period if you really really want a minibus to do the job.

[colinw]

Geez, just because a set of rails exists doesn't mean we HAVE to run a public transport service down it.  Particularly not to somewhere like the Port of Brisbane.

If you want to serve the port, I'd suggest running a connecting bus that stops at Hemmant station and then goes along Lytton Road.

If a current bit of freight trackage anywhere in Brisbane needs a service provided, it is the former Cold Stores branch beyond Doomben to Hamilton, but we can't even serve the Doomben line properly at present.

I suspect that the pattern of shift work at the port may not be conducive to workers commuting by public transport anyway.

[somebody]

I remember if being discussed on this board that there was up until 1-2 years ago a bus funded by the port from a nearby rail station, but they decided not to anymore.  Presumably the demand was low.

[Gazza]

Geez, just because a set of rails exists doesn't mean we HAVE to run a public transport service down it.  Particularly not to somewhere like the Port of Brisbane.

Agreed, its a bit like those people who reckon we should run pax services down that low speed winding logan village line so people on their acreage can ride a choo choo into Brisbane.

[Arnz]

If the Logan Village line was similar to the Wamuran Line, they may have a case.

But in reality, no.  The Logan Village line is on a 1890s alignment.  May be good for tourist trains, but the last time they tried that the operator went broke.

[colinw]

This is getting a bit off topic, but I'll bite.

IMHO, Logan Village is an entirely different situation to the Port of Brisbane. Its low density & acreage now, although the planned developments in the area will change that.

The existing line is of little to no use, being life expired infrastructure with 60 lb/yard rail. There is a section of poor alignment through Waterford, although beyond Waterford toward Logan Village it opens up and the line has some significant straight sections and would be good for reasonable speed running.  The curves around Waterford are similar radius to the worst bits of the Beenleigh & Ferny Grove lines.  With modern track most would be 60 km/h, with maybe 40 to 50 at the worst couple (mitigated that the worst curves would probably be on the approach to the most sensible location for Waterford Station, on Easterly St near Canterbury College).  Of the 12km from Bethania to Logan Village, there is about 4km of poor alignment and 8km of good alignment.  Unfortunately, the 4km of bad alignment is in the most densely populated area and cannot be easily rectified.

However, with a big Delfin development at Waterford West (houses popping up everywhere, at normal suburban density and even some small blocks), and Yarrabilba going ahead, there will be a need to provide something in the area in maybe 10-15 years time.  The alternative is that the Yarrabilba development will go ahead with no sensible public transport, remembering that it is the only one of the Government's planned satellite cities that has no public transport mapped out for it.

Maybe the corridor can be turned into something useful.  The present plan is a bike path & railtrail, which will preserve the corridor.  I don't expect to see anything done any time soon, but the corridor must be kept for future use for rail, light rail or low cost busway.

This off the cuff mention of Logan Village leaves me with serious questions as to the sustainability & accessibility of the Yarrabilba satellite city.

Services to Yarrabilba will probably have to take the form of buses, as I just can't see rail into the area being viable any time soon.  Particularly with the poor standard of the first 3-4 km of available corridor.  Even buses will struggle 'though, as the road system in the area is not great.

To see what we're talking about, click here and follow the branch line from Bethania to Logan Village (some clouds obscure the view toward Logan Village).  At Logan Village you can see the formation of the former Canungra branch (closed 1955) curve away to the south.  That right of way runs right through the middle of the proposed Yarrabilba development.

P.S. Arnz is right - the Wamuran spur is far more suitable for future re-use as a commuter line.  It is dead straight for several km, and rest of the alignment is not too bad.  Lots of level crossings 'though.

[Stillwater]

Pity the option for any future reconnection and reinstatement of the line at the Caboolture end has been buggered up.  If Moreton Bay Regional Council ever got off its bum, the feasibility of light rail from Woodford-Wamuran to Bribie Island bridge could be explored, with bus feeders from Bribie and Beachmere.

[#Metro]

You could have a rocket bus system. Paint on bus lanes or T2 lanes, wider stops.

Spend less on bags of concrete and more on services.

[colinw]

Pity the option for any future reconnection and reinstatement of the line at the Caboolture end has been buggered up.  If Moreton Bay Regional Council ever got off its bum, the feasibility of light rail from Woodford-Wamuran to Bribie Island bridge could be explored, with bus feeders from Bribie and Beachmere.

At the very least the Wamuran Line and the Bethania to Logan Village section of the Beaudesert Line should be developed for active transport (mixed bikeway & pedestrian path).  12km from Logan Village to Bethania Station, with railway alignment & grades, would make an easy bike connection to the train at Bethania.  Ditto Wamuran to Caboolture.

Alternatively, use the corridors for an el-cheapo busway.

[SurfRail]

I remember if being discussed on this board that there was up until 1-2 years ago a bus funded by the port from a nearby rail station, but they decided not to anymore.  Presumably the demand was low.

Don't know how familiar you are with the schedule of this service, but it was comparable to (or less useful than) the 302 on the other side of the river, with something like 3 up services in the am and 3 down services in the pm.  Plus it had the advantage of not having TransLink fares.

In other words it was operated in accordance with the usual paradigm - provide awful service so the poor result justifies it being canned entirely.  Likewise the Ipswich to Indooroopilly service, which was funded 100% by Southern Cross Transit and therefore could not operate at reasonable headways without losing money out of the gills.

There was a body of work commissioned a few years ago on improving PT access to the Australia Tradecoast areas, does anybody know where that is floating around?

[Derwan]

I remember if being discussed on this board...

Here's the thread:  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4210.0

[SteelPan]

Hey SteelPan, can you expand on a bit more what you are thinking of?  Thanks ..

Hi Ozbob.
Well, the Port is a unique and very important economic driver for the SE Qld area, already thousands work down that way and many more will in the years to come - not just at the Port, but all the associated infrastructure and businesses going in there - one of the privitsation drivers to continue and grown the regions development.   Also, one of the key requirements of the Port is it's ongoing "green" credentials - as part of that process, looking from say 2020+ a link with the wider SE Qld Cityrail network MAY have some value to the city - a rail link would help ensure the port region is a vibrant and fully integrated part of SE Qld.  (same should be the case with the old Doomben line and the Tradecoast development region - if it's true for there - it's 10 fold true for the Port Region).

[SteelPan]

Geez, just because a set of rails exists doesn't mean we HAVE to run a public transport service down it.  Particularly not to somewhere like the Port of Brisbane.

If you want to serve the port, I'd suggest running a connecting bus that stops at Hemmant station and then goes along Lytton Road.

If a current bit of freight trackage anywhere in Brisbane needs a service provided, it is the former Cold Stores branch beyond Doomben to Hamilton, but we can't even serve the Doomben line properly at present.

I suspect that the pattern of shift work at the port may not be conducive to workers commuting by public transport anyway.

We're talking about the Port of Brisbane say 15yrs from now - the businesses growing around it - enormous growth to take place!

[HappyTrainGuy]

But what benefit would it have during the day after everyone is at work. Then the same after everone has gone home. Then add in freight paths and their might not be capacity available without duplicating. If its just for workers there's gonna be a hard time selling it when other projects and lines could use the money instead.

[mufreight]

But what benefit would it have during the day after everyone is at work. Then the same after everone has gone home. Then add in freight paths and their might not be capacity available without duplicating. If its just for workers there's gonna be a hard time selling it when other projects and lines could use the money instead.

The area of the port has considerable commercial potential and there would also be the tourist industry when/if the new tour ship facilities are constructed to cater for the vessels now too large to use the current facilities at Hamilton.
These will all generate passenger journeys better catered for by rail.

[Gazza]

How many passengers per hour need to be moved now and into the future?
Get that figure, and you have your answer on whether it should be a bus or a train.

[SteelPan]

But what benefit would it have during the day after everyone is at work. Then the same after everone has gone home. Then add in freight paths and their might not be capacity available without duplicating. If its just for workers there's gonna be a hard time selling it when other projects and lines could use the money instead.

What serious passenger numbers, do 90% of buses at off-peak times carry, that would genuinely justify the cost of running them???

What serious number of cars, per hour, drive along 90% of suburban streets and secondary country roads at non-peak times and even during alot of peak times, to genuinely justisfy the development and mantenance of reasonable quality roads?

Why is it always "rail" that has these comments made about it!  1 bus, 1 driver moves say 50-60-70 people.  1 train, 1 driver (gaurd??) moves how many people?

Stay loud for RAIL - life's NOT about what's reasonable, it's about what's LOUD for long enough - to be heard!  Be heard for RAIL.           

[somebody]

Stay loud for RAIL - life's NOT about what's reasonable, it's about what's LOUD for long enough - to be heard!  Be heard for RAIL.           

Be that as it may, I'd prefer that we didn't waste ammo on such a loss making service.  There are so many bigger issues in the system.

[#Metro]

Mobility is my guiding principle. What people need is transport.
Even I am skeptical of busways beyond Chermside (parallel to the train line!)

On that note however, I wonder if PT can work in industrial areas or what the service characteristics might be. It seems almost as a given that "PT does not work to industrial areas" but this seems more of an assumption than something backed up by facts. After all, are these places not businesses with employees too?? What are the factors influencing PT patronage to these areas?

[SteelPan]

"avoiding the development of an "ugly" and isolated industrial "no go" zone!" That's the very heart of my suggestion...NO city, anywhere, benefits from having large sections of it under-utilised outside of business hours.  Two points, 1) it was not many years ago, that the Brisbane CBD was itself a ghost town after hours - look at it now, people have come back to living in the heart of it, why because of the infrastructure, rail infrastructure plays a key role in that and will more so in the future, with the cross-river tunnel project and HOPEFULLY, the Newman subway proposal.  2) leading on from "1", why go out and build more and more, further spread "satellite" communities (a topic on the talbe right now for SEQ) with HUGE new costs, including infrastructure - assuming they get all the necessary infrastructure (SEQ doesn't have a great track record), putting people further and further away from established cities, when key parts of the city, already with extensive infrastructure, are not more fully utilised, simply because people have never been encouraged and supported in embracing those regions - HUGE SAVINGS to be had.

Finally, look at Newstead, 10-20yrs ago a clapped out part of "old Brissy" full of long closed wool stores and dirty old wharfs - look at it today - imagine it, just 5-10yrs from now - it needs light rail urgently, but that's another topic.

Put CityTrain down to the Port and bring developers onboard for PT friendly, medium/higher density living, along with the ongoing business development - people want vibrant mixed communities and to be part of real cities, not stuck out in some distant new estate, with a 30min journey just to the shinny new bus stop!  (for one of 4 buses a day).  It's been more and more done even with building developments too, mixed use, part commercial, part retail, part housing.  The UNIQUE Port of Brisbane, part commercial port, part business communities and Part housing/retail.     

[HappyTrainGuy]

What serious passenger numbers, do 90% of buses at off-peak times carry, that would genuinely justify the cost of running them???

What serious number of cars, per hour, drive along 90% of suburban streets and secondary country roads at non-peak times and even during alot of peak times, to genuinely justisfy the development and mantenance of reasonable quality roads?

Why is it always "rail" that has these comments made about it!  1 bus, 1 driver moves say 50-60-70 people.  1 train, 1 driver (gaurd??) moves how many people?

Stay loud for RAIL - life's NOT about what's reasonable, it's about what's LOUD for long enough - to be heard!  Be heard for RAIL.           

But that's the thing. Trains are not busses. Busses can pretty much go where ever they want to. A train has a defined set of tracks that it has to follow. If theres going to be a line running there has to be stations, then there's extra rollingstock required to maintain the whole network, add in electrification and maintainence and your looking at a serious amount of money being spent just to transport a few workers to work each day. One could justify that the money would be better spent on the Kippa Ring line. It would have more constant stream of passengers at all times, less cars on roads and provide extra services for passengers at other stations and lines.

[SteelPan]

Please see my above comments - make no mistake CityTrain to POB is a golden opportunity - CityTrain to POB working existing (other) infrastructure HARDER!   

[#Metro]

I'd rather spend the money on duplicating Cleveland line and more frequent trains ... cash is limiting, SEQ2031 can't even be funded and we are going to add more infrastructure to that... concrete is very pricey! Buy services not concrete!!! Look at Queensland Rail- new everything, new stations, new logo, new stations, new trains, and the SERVICE is so so bad rotten apple to the core... I would rather live next to a BUZ route!

Is the demand approaching 20-30 buses per hour in the off-peak?
What will the frequency of this train be?
How will it cross the Merivale Bridge at peak hour when train paths are limiting?
Why not run a bus from the nearest train station? That way you get the mobility without eating up train paths.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Just because theres a train line already there it doesn't mean that it has to be run for passenger use. There's a line to Gibson Island..... why not run trains there? Its a dedicated freight line hence why from Dutton Park-Port of Brisbane it not wired. Its not uncommon to see a loaded coal train on the freight line with a unloaded coal train on the electrified line. Where would you propose that they have the stations? Where they unload coal or in the yard? Now what's this train going to be doing when its stopped. Will it be blocking the line?

Why can't they just ramp up bus services? Build a busway? Why does it have to be rail orientated? If it can't even support busses running why build an expensive line that wouldn't have a real benefit.

[#Metro]

What is needed is mobility- the ability to move in the direction you want at the time of your choosing fast.
I would suggest either a semi-fixed flexilink taxi trial, bus route trial or maxitaxi trial to the port or some kind of subscription bus/taxi.

I would not put residential anything within 3 km of the port. With loud trucks, noisy trains and diesel and freight moving at all hours of the night, I think the planning codes would not permit that use unfortunately.

But I agree with you- there has to be something to the port. That something does not necessarily have to be trains.

[achiruel]

Would it be a good idea to give the Port of Brisbane Motorway HOV lanes?  Or perhaps build a busway in parallel with it (the extension is apparently commencing soon, so it may to be too late to incorporate this into the design).

[SurfRail]

Would it be a good idea to give the Port of Brisbane Motorway HOV lanes?  Or perhaps build a busway in parallel with it (the extension is apparently commencing soon, so it may to be too late to incorporate this into the design).

I don't think the density of service required merits any infrastructure beyond bus stops along a route from a Wynnum area station (Wynnum Central itself probably for the connectivity with local bus routes plus the Cleveland line).  Plenty of people work at the port, but off-peak patronage would be nearly non-existent (ie capable of being carried on buses in general traffic).

Signal priority should ultimately be available all across SEQ for all TransLink contracted services, with bus jump lanes provided where the benefit would offset the cost of messing with the intersection.

[Gazza]

"avoiding the development of an "ugly" and isolated industrial "no go" zone!" That's the very heart of my suggestion...NO city, anywhere, benefits from having large sections of it under-utilised outside of business hours.  Two points, 1) it was not many years ago, that the Brisbane CBD was itself a ghost town after hours - look at it now, people have come back to living in the heart of it, why because of the infrastructure, rail infrastructure plays a key role in that

Gentrification of an inner city area/CBD is a bit easier than trying to put nightclubs and apartments amongst industrial sheds at POB. That's pretty much what you are suggesting would happen if pax rail was put out there.

Finally, look at Newstead, 10-20yrs ago a clapped out part of "old Brissy" full of long closed wool stores and dirty old wharfs - look at it today - imagine it, just 5-10yrs from now - it needs light rail urgently, but that's another topic.

Again, the type of building there made it ripe for apartment conversion, and its proximity to the CBD made this viable to to. Nobody is going to do the same living miles out at the POB. Furthermore, it's just a reflection of changing land use. Once upon a time that area was Brisbane's port, and it too would've been industrial only, but now that got moved out to the current location. This process is repeating with Hamilton North Shore, since it too is reasonably close to the CBD.

But at the same time, Brisbane will still need some dedicated port area, because the land uses aren't conducive with residential, nobody wants to live near oil terminals, but at the same time we need one somewhere.

It's 4km from the Fishermans island bridge to the Cleveland line...Short enough to be a feeder bus, especially considering the POB motorway is uncongested.

And Hemmant is a better candidate for genetrification if we were going to do this approach, because it is already "on the way"

life's NOT about what's reasonable, it's about what's LOUD for long enough - to be heard!  Be heard for RAIL.

Thing is though, there are plenty of 'reasonable' rail projects that need to be done before this.

[SteelPan]

1. The revitilisation of inner Brisbane, involves alot more than putting just nightclubs and apartments in.  As I clearly stated MIXED use developments are the key to getting greater and cheaper use of existing infrastructure.  "PATH" would be a CHEAP value multiplier for the Port region.

2. The significant growth of SE Qld, means we must look beyond the Newstead and Hamilton regions and look for the next generation of infrastructure rich, people poor regions, which can be transformed into 24/7 MIXED use communities.

I say again - the general Port region, has the potential to become a unique and vibrant MIXED USE area, embracing Port activites, Port related activites, general business, light e-friendly industry, commercial, retail and residential.  The key, is an affordable, value adding transit tsystem to help achieve this, either 1) add a CityTrain service or 2) a fully integrated rapid lightrail link from the most practicable CityTrain Station servicing the region at High Frequency 24/7.

Remember, we are speaking 2020+ here.  The likes of Newstead and Hamilton will be well past bursting point by then!  (Whether they have quality transit infrastructure is a very different matter).

"PATH" is Cheap, Value Adding and Doable!  

[SurfRail]

1. The revitilisation of inner Brisbane, involves alot more than putting just nightclubs and apartments in.  As I clearly stated MIXED use developments are the key to getting greater and cheaper use of existing infrastructure.  "PATH" would be a CHEAP value multiplier for the Port region.

2. The significant growth of SE Qld, means we must look beyond the Newstead and Hamilton regions and look for the next generation of infrastructure rich, people poor regions, which can be transformed into 24/7 MIXED use communities.

I say again - the general Port region, has the potential to become a unique and vibrant MIXED USE area, embracing Port activites, Port related activites, general business, light e-friendly industry, commercial, retail and residential.  The key, is an affordable, value adding transit tsystem to help achieve this, either 1) add a CityTrain service or 2) a fully integrated rapid lightrail link from the most practicable CityTrain Station servicing the region at High Frequency 24/7.

Remember, we are speaking 2020+ here.  The likes of Newstead and Hamilton will be well past bursting point by then!  (Whether they have quality transit infrastructure is a very different matter).

"PATH" is Cheap, Value Adding and Doable!  

No part of the SEQRP, QIP, Brisbane City Plan or other relevant instruments I am aware of contemplates the need to cram residential growth into an area that is largely an oil refinery, whether in 20 or in 50 years time or beyond.

The Australia Tradecoast is an industrial region, and large-scale residential/retail/light commercial uses are incompatible with that.  Plenty of room for people to live in Ipswich, Algester, Robina etc, not so many industrial sites next to the port, airport and refineries.

When we don't even have 15 minute off-peak frequencies on our existing lines, when we have capacity constraints such the Coomera River Bridge, need for additional tracks from the city to Petrie, absence of CRR etc, and when the government is not resolved on fixing either, this does not even rate as a blip I'm sorry to say.

Buses will be fine for those people who work there. 

[HappyTrainGuy]

But the path won't be cheap. Its a dual gauge single line unelectrified dedicated freight designed track. There is no room what so ever to have passenger services. They can't run a passenger train through a coal unloading terminal. They can't run a line next to the freight loading/unloading area. You can't have the electrics stopping anywhere near the loop/yards. If there was to be passenger trains running there, massive amounts of infrastructure has to be change/moved/modified before electrification could even occur. Its just not feesable to run CityTrains there. Far better and cheaper to have a bus running as it could cover a greater area than what train could. Its okay saying just run trains there for the future as theres a track currently there but a substancial amount of cash would have to be spent to do so.

[Gazza]

The significant growth of SE Qld, means we must look beyond the Newstead and Hamilton regions and look for the next generation of infrastructure rich, people poor regions,

....

And Hemmant is a better candidate for genetrification if we were going to do this approach, because it is already "on the way"

See this, it's vacant land near a train line:
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hemmant&aq=&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=62.771612,135.263672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hemmant+Queensland&ll=-27.442364,153.129609&spn=0.015692,0.033023&t=h&z=16


Mixed use is one thing, but nobody is going to live next door to oil tanks...This doesn't happen anywhere, except 3rd world countries. But as I said earlier, why not redevelop the area in the map above, since it is closer to the city and is easier to build on?

Industrial needs X amount of square meters to do what needs to be done. Why do you think they have been progressively reclaiming land? If you start trying to cram other stuff into this area, then the industries that do need the land get crowded out and cant expand.

But the path won't be cheap. Its a dual gauge single line unelectrified dedicated freight designed track. There is no room what so ever to have passenger services. They can't run a passenger train through a coal unloading terminal. They can't run a line next to the freight loading/unloading area. You can't have the electrics stopping anywhere near the loop/yards. If there was to be passenger trains running there, massive amounts of infrastructure has to be change/moved/modified before electrification could even occur. Its just not feesable to run CityTrains there. Far better and cheaper to have a bus running as it could cover a greater area than what train could. Its okay saying just run trains there for the future as theres a track currently there but a substancial amount of cash would have to be spent to do so.

Agree with all of this. What's really wrong with just using Bus/BRT in this area.

[SteelPan]

The industrial areas will die, if they are not turned into mixed use regions.

[Golliwog]

The industrial areas will die, if they are not turned into mixed use regions.

How so? I was always under the impression that mixed use was about having commerical and residential together. To a lesser extent, commercial and industrial would make sense, but I'm sorry I cannot see any way you could put industrial and residential together and have it work.