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Author Topic: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?  (Read 2834 times)

Offline Mozz

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Yes it's the old 6.44am from Oxley again. This morning jumped onto the second carriage. At leaving Toowong I counted approximately 73 people standing in the carriage, around 20 each in the doorway area, 15 or so in the middle of the two and around 9-10 people in the aisles leading to the intercarriage doors.

Plus the 84 seated commuters - sound around 157 people in one carriage.

If this was replicated in the other 5 carriages - and I assume it was given the number of people scrambling from door to door looking for a way to get onto the train - this would be around 950 - 1000 people crammed into the 6 carriages.

Very difficult for people to enter or leave the train or even stand as lots of people don't have anything to grab to steady themselves.

Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2008, 12:19:45 PM »
Interesting figures Mozz.

As I understand in Melbourne the figure aimed for in terms of maximum loading is 798 per 6 car train (136 per car).  Remember this is on 5'3" gauge too which is a greater loading gauge (more room).  Citytrain passengers are doing it very tight and tough on some peak services!!

 :o :o
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Offline Mozz

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2008, 10:52:57 PM »
A few views but only a reply from Bob -  I will submit a question to Translink and ask them.

Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2008, 04:04:45 AM »
I seem to remember that maximum loading is thought of as around 750 pax per car Mozz, but that is just a recollection  ::)

The years of neglect are taking their toll on all lines.  It is absolutely farcical that transport planning such as the Western Bypass Study is using 2.7% compound increase in public transport as it's basis.  Ministerial statements, other publications confirm growth is actually around 9 to 10% per annum compound.  It is little wonder we are forced to ride in dangerously overloaded public transport with the fools doing this planning.

This is something we (RAIL Back On Track) will be highlighting in the near future ie. the complete failure to use real and accurate data in load and resource planning for public transport.

 :o >:(
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 04:21:47 AM by ozbob »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2008, 07:51:06 AM »
I travelled on the 6.44am from Oxley this morning in Car 1 (5 Mar 2008) and did a count.

On boarding at Oxley 127 pax in Car 1.

Gain = (number of pax boarded - number of pax who alighted from the train)

Corinda  gain +5  Total pax 132

Sherwood  gain +2  Total pax 134

Graceville  gain +1 Total pax 135

Indooroopilly  gain +16  Total pax = 151

Taringa  gain +12  Total pax = 163

Toowong  gain + 6 Total pax = 169

Auchenflower gain +6 Total pax = 175

Milton gain +2 Total pax = 177

Now these figures are for CAR ONE.  Typically the lightest loading carriage.

So the train is carrying a minimum of  6 x 177 = 1062  passengers on arrival at Roma St!

 :o :o :o
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 09:14:53 AM by ozbob »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2008, 09:36:00 AM »
From another thread for interest (http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=143.0)
Post by Mozz.

This morning as the 6.44am from Oxley arrived at Roma St a school student collapsed.  The congestion on the train was intense. (Approaching a 5 on the Derwan scale .. --> http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=557.0).  I assisted briefly on platform 9 until some TOs promptly arrived.  The student should be fine, students do faint from time to time but the early peak congestion on the Ipswich line (and other lines too) is becoming a problem.  The student commented 'it was squishy' ...
I would call it tighter than a sardine can ...

A quick fix would be to run a service from Darra - Bowen Hills leaving about 6.35am to sweep up short haul commuters and give some room to those commuters travelling in from further out on the 6.14am service from Ipswich.

 ???


Mozz said:

I was on the train with Bob this morning and can atest to the poor situation that is the 6.44am from Oxley. I have been highlighting this issue with translink for at least the past 3 years without success. I can't recall the last time an additional service was implemented in the morning peak period on the Ipswich line (peak time being 6 - 9am - yes work patterns have changed, people are starting work earlier).

The 6.54am from Oxley used to be a 2-3 on the Derwan scale* but it too is now pulling a solid 3 when it hits Oxley and again a 4 and generally 5 by the time it hits Roma/Central which in turn then pushes people back onto the 6.44am from Oxley as both trains are now overcrowded (and potentially unsafe as can be seen by this morning's medical issue).

It has been my experience the 6.44am from Oxley is consistently unable to arrive at Roma/Central at the times advertised in the timetable due to overcrowding and is consistently even falling outside the 4 minute buffer used to define an "on time" train versus one which is "not on time".

We all know there are overcrowding issues across the network however if nothing continues to be done, as it has in the past, to address issues on the overcrowded trains to the point of being unsafe for rail commuters on the Ipswich line I expect commuters will become significantly more active in support of "something" in terms of addressing these issues rather than the "nothing" which has been forthcoming thus far.

*Ed. For standard congestion scale see --> http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=557.0
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 09:40:33 AM by ozbob »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2008, 03:25:42 PM »
The design limit for a 3 car EMU is 500 (sitting and standing) source --> http://www.citytrain.com.au/about/fleet/emu/emu.asp

(the other units eg SMUs etc. the same effectively)

Some services of late (six car) are probably nudging 1200 pax.  This is 20% grossly overloaded and not healthy at all.

Even at 1000 it is very uncomfortable.

We need frequencies that mean no more than 800 or so I reckon. At that level dwell times are manageable too and there is still some comfort.

Cheers
Ozbob

« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 03:28:52 PM by ozbob »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2008, 09:01:07 AM »
Travelled in on 6.44am service from Oxley this morning (Mar 6).  Much the same level of congestion as yesterday.

A service leaving from Darra about 6.33 am to Bowen Hills would relieve some of the congestion.

Cheers
Ozbob
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Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2008, 10:44:02 AM »
These earlier media releases might be of interest too:

19 Dec 2007 SEQ:  More Citytrain crew and trains needed!

26 Nov 2007 SEQ:  More Citytrain services needed for Ipswich line

1 Oct 2007: Extra peak Citytrain services needed on Ipswich line


 8)

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Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2008, 09:27:47 AM »
Loading on the 6.44am from Oxley was relatively comfortable compared to earlier in the week today.  That is the case that Fridays tend to be the lightest loadings of passengers for the week.  About 145 in car one this morning.  This should be the normal maximum not the congestion that is Monday to Thursdays. 

The only relief will be more trains, and with the looming fuel price rises more and more people will want to travel on the Ipswich line, and all lines for the matter.

The community will need a lot more trains than the 44 three car sets presently on order.  At least another 44 more!

 8)
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Offline Mozz

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2008, 07:08:21 PM »
Translink has replied in a timely manner, only a couple of days has past which is great, and many of the initiatives will indeed reap benefits but not now, nor in the immediate future but in the medium to long term (which is not now where the issues exist).

However I dare anyone to find an actual response to my question as to what is the safe versus unsafe passenger loading for a citytrain - 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200+ as we are actually seeing on peak services?

With reference to the 132 carriages, I suspect the last of these will be delivered in 4-6 years time when petrol hits $3-4 a litre and the associated fleeing of car commuters to public transport.

Dear Steven,
>
> Thank you for contacting TransLink.
>
> The  State  Government's investment in public transport is
> unprecedented in Queensland  history.  In 2007/08, the Government will
> spend over $750 $956m providing train, bus and ferry services in SEQ. 
> With fare revenue covering less  than  a  third of this cost, the
> Government's investment represents a massive subsidy to provide frequent, reliable and affordable services.
>
> The State Government introduced TransLink in 2004, providing one
> ticket for trains,  buses  and  ferries  and  standardising fares across all TransLink
> operators.   Patronage  on  the  TransLink system over the past three years
> outstripped  population  growth by five to one. In the first three
> years of operations,  patronage  on  TransLink  services  has  grown 
> by  over  30%, representing  an  extra  40  million trips taken on
> public transport during this period.
>
> Further to this Citytrain passenger demand has increased considerably
> across South East Queensland for the morning peak period.  To address
> this growth the State Government is spending approximately $584m to
> build 132 new train carriages and new stabling facilities to be delivered by 2010.
> High speed carriages are currently under construction in Maryborough
> and the first set was deployed on the Gold Coast line on 28 May 2007.
>
>
> The benefits of the new carriages include:
>
>    48 carriages with toilets for long distance journeys;
>    Advanced CCTV;
>    Improved lighting;
>    Electronic passenger information systems; and
>    Improved visibility between carriages- increasing passenger safety.
>
>  Full delivery of the 132 carriages will increase the size of the
> fleet by 30% - or around 10 000 additional seats. TransLink and
> Queensland Rail Limited will be implementing timetable changes in
> March and September 2008, which will involve a significant restructure
> of the TransLink network (both Citytrain and integrated bus services) to best meet passenger needs.
> Additional services between  on the Ipswich Line, will be considered
> as part of this timetable restructure and your suggestion will be
> fully considered as part of this process.
>
> Kind Regards,
>

Offline Derwan

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2008, 07:19:18 PM »
However I dare anyone to find an actual response to my question as to what is the safe versus unsafe passenger loading for a citytrain - 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200+ as we are actually seeing on peak services?

It'd be interesting to see what EDI Rail (formerly Walkers) in Maryborough would say.  They designed and built the trains.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2008, 07:25:36 PM »
The design loading is 500 passengers per 3 car train or 1000 per 6.

eg. EMU
Seating Capacity (3-car set)   248
Service Standing Capacity (3-car set)   252
Total Service Capacity (3-car set)   500

http://www.citytrain.com.au/about/fleet/emu/emu.asp

So excess of that is technically overloading IMHO.
I think when it is greater than 1100 definitely becoming difficult for passengers and may contribute to accidents as people run up and down platforms trying to find a chink in the commuter chain mail at the doors!   There are also problems for some people due to the crowding and close contact with commuters.  This was a factor in the school girl fainting early last week.

 :o :o
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 05:30:40 AM by ozbob »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2008, 07:31:21 PM »
The response from Translink looks like a standard form letter to me Mozz.

No attempt to acknowledge or even answer your question.  Standard modus operandi!

 :D
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Offline monkey

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2008, 12:38:08 PM »
This morning as the 6.44am from Oxley arrived at Roma St a school student collapsed.  The congestion on the train was intense. (Approaching a 5 on the Derwan scale .. --> http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=557.0).

For the first time I think I saw what would be a 6 on the Derwan scale - someone leaving the train not because they'd reached their destination, but because they couldn't tolerate the sardine tin conditions (and they made their opinion fairly well known as they stepped off).  Caboolture line, 7:25am into the city on Friday.

Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2008, 03:25:13 PM »
Thanks for that report Monkey. 

I have seen commuters stand back from trying to board once they approach the doors and see the seething mass of arms legs and briefcases!  Heard the odd complaint too!   ;D

It is really time to properly resource our suburban train network.  This catch-up patch-up mentality needs a change!

 ;)
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Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2008, 10:41:53 AM »
Some feedback received:

Quote
The capacity of a six car service from a passenger?s point of view is 484 (everyone seated ? based on the seating capacity of the modified original EMU?s, which was 496.  The modification to allow for wheel chairs requires the removal of 3 seats in the area near each of the guard?s compartments.)

The capacity of a six car service from a Translink?s point of view is 1000 (full crush capacity ? maximum revenue.  This is probably a little harsh as they do have limits for the number of people standing in each unit.)

The capacity of a six car service from a maximum efficiency point of view is 725 (all seats occupied with approximately 15 in each vestibule and 11 in the aisles of each car ? 15 in the vestibule still allows reasonable access for entraining and detraining passengers and 11 in the aisles is based one person at each row of seats.  This means that it is relatively easy for people to move past them the leave the train at intermediate stations.  As this number is increased, it becomes more difficult for people to move down the aisles and for people to join or leave the train due to crowding in the vestibules.  These problems will then cause delays at the stations and in turn causes late running in peak times.  This is why those scheduling services in peak time put ?catch up? time in the schedules to help keep them on time. They do this mainly to make sure that they meet their on time performance requirements from Translink.)"


Thanks!
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Offline ozbob

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Re: What is the safe versus unsafe passenger number for a train carriage?
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2008, 11:05:37 AM »
Interesting comments anon. 

The Melbourne target for six cars is 798 pax.  This is reasonable as little more room on the 5' 3".  On our 3'6" gauge trains 725 pax should be the comfortable max.  It really highlights how crushed our commuters are on a 6 car train that is approaching 1200 passengers or more. 

 :-\
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