Infrastructure priorities

[somebody]

My list of high priority infrastructure besides CRR is (in order):
Clapham stabling
Doomben partial duplication
Northgate #4 to Virginia #2 crossover
Sandgate platform #2 upgrades
Cleveland line duplications: IMO should be Thorneside-Wellington Point
Robina yard to 10 space (why wasn't this done when it was upgraded from 5 to 7?)
Beerburrum-Glass House Mountains duplication & straightening (allows clockface hourly frequency to Landsborough)
Sunshine Coast stabling upgrades
Mooloolah-Palmwoods duplication & straightening (or similar)
Thorneside stabling
Eagle Junction to west end of Clayfield station duplication - needed to reduce cascading delays if a problem occurs on the single track
Beenleigh line crossovers
Petrie #1 to up main path to not conflict with down main to Petrie #2 path
Raising of 25-30km/h speed limits around Roma St West
Petrie stabling upgrade
Loganlea triplication - should allow david's Beenleigh line plan to proceed.
Straightening of the Northgate #4 to Virginia #3 path - currently requires traversing the diverging leg of a turnout
Ferny Grove-Mayne direct connection.  I'd add Shorncliffe also - currently it is needed to run around via Roma St.

Lower priorities:
Shorncliffe duplication
Ferny Grove line works beyond Keperra
Oxley 4th platform
Corinda-Darra 4th road electrification
Lawnton-Petrie amplifications
Station painting etc. works.
Redbank stabling
Darra-Redbank triple

Which is proceeding??

EDIT: Added Redbank & sunny coast stabling, Redbank triple, Robina yard, title, Petrie arrangements, Mayne arrangements

[HappyTrainGuy]

The NCL has to be put at the highest priority in my eyes. There is just way more traffic and proposed future routes/projects compared to Doomben and an extension to Hamilton that's not even on their forecast. Just forget about duplicating the Doomben/Pinkenba line for now as its basicially building a brand new line (Upgrading the stations (Including Eagle Junction), signaling, electrification, new/replacement of track and sleepers, level crossing upgrades, pedistrian crossover upgrades, new timetables for it and other lines, possible realignment in places to enable dual tracks, there's consultations with owners with pirvate rail/property owners and that's all before even thinking about proposing building a new station and rail to Hamilton). Duplicating the Doomben/Pinkenba line will mean skipping only two little stations (Please remind me what do most people here think about the Airport train skipping those two stations.....).

There are still massive bottlenecks which limit services between Northgate and Gympie with different services clashing at different points and locations eg the Sunlander/The Spirit Of THe Outback/Tilts/Nambour-Caboolture shuttles/CityTrain all stations/CityTrain expresses/Gympie services (In the new timetable if the freight path delays the Sunlander, the morning Gympie North service might be a little affected as it will already be shadowing The Sunlander past Nambour is a good example). What about the line to Kippa Ring? One could argue that would also enable the Caboolture services to skip more stations (Nundah, Toombul, Wooloowin, Albion) rather than only Albion and Wooloowin and then wait for Kippa Ring to come online before they run past those four stations. Why not put the money towards upgrading the line Northgate-Caboolture so there are more paths available for express services and freights. If parts of Kippa Ring came on earlier in a similar deal to Richlands, passengers between Northgate and Petrie would also see extra services. Who knows, in the future we might see Kippa Ring-Springfield, Caboolture-Ipswich, Shorncliffe-Cleveland, Doomben-Yerongpilly. We've had Shorncliffe-Beenleigh, Ferny Grove-Ipswich, Petrie-Thornside, Caboolture-Roma Street, Pinkenba-Roma Street in the past so anything is possible.

The reason for the slow speeds around Roma Street is due to the multiple crossover points and different gauges of track in the area.

[Arnz]

I'd replace Eudlo-Palmwoods with Mooloolah-Palmwoods, if you look at the map, you'll see the huge curves in this section.  Not to mention the "U" curve into Eudlo from Mooloolah.

[somebody]

The NCL has to be put at the highest priority in my eyes.

Fair enough.  I have my own opinion though.

Just forget about duplicating the Doomben/Pinkenba line for now as its basicially building a brand new line (Upgrading the stations (Including Eagle Junction), signaling, electrification, new/replacement of track and sleepers, level crossing upgrades, pedistrian crossover upgrades, new timetables for it and other lines, possible realignment in places to enable dual tracks, there's consultations with owners with pirvate rail/property owners and that's all before even thinking about proposing building a new station and rail to Hamilton). Duplicating the Doomben/Pinkenba line will mean skipping only two little stations (Please remind me what do most people here think about the Airport train skipping those two stations.....).

I am sure that I didn't propose to duplicate beyond Doomben.  Ascot-Doomben has one level crossing and two rail underbridges.  I can conceive that this could swing the desired duplication to the Eagle Junction end.

There are still massive bottlenecks which limit services between Northgate and Gympie with different services clashing at different points and locations eg the Sunlander/The Spirit Of THe Outback/Tilts/Nambour-Caboolture shuttles/CityTrain all stations/CityTrain expresses/Gympie services (In the new timetable if the freight path delays the Sunlander, the morning Gympie North service might be a little affected as it will already be shadowing The Sunlander past Nambour is a good example). What about the line to Kippa Ring? One could argue that would also enable the Caboolture services to skip more stations (Nundah, Toombul, Wooloowin, Albion) rather than only Albion and Wooloowin and then wait for Kippa Ring to come online before they run past those four stations. Why not put the money towards upgrading the line Northgate-Caboolture so there are more paths available for express services and freights. If parts of Kippa Ring came on earlier in a similar deal to Richlands, passengers between Northgate and Petrie would also see extra services. Who knows, in the future we might see Kippa Ring-Springfield, Caboolture-Ipswich, Shorncliffe-Cleveland, Doomben-Yerongpilly. We've had Shorncliffe-Beenleigh, Ferny Grove-Ipswich, Petrie-Thornside, Caboolture-Roma Street, Pinkenba-Roma Street in the past so anything is possible.

Kippa-Ring is one of the reasons why something needs to be done to remove the Albion & Wooloowin pax from the Caboolture line.  The trains will just become too congested.  Adding Kippa-Ring pre-CRR will certainly make the problems on the mains worse, not better.

Nundah and Toombul I say should certainly be skipped when Shorncliffe is given a 15 minute peak service.  That just didn't happen in the latest timetable.

The other issue is that CityTrain has enough trouble attracting pax even in peak.  I give the Sunshine Coast people a low priority here.  We need to get the Virginia-Caboolture people onto the trains, which on current patronage outnumber the Sunshine Coast people more than 12 to 1.  Perhaps the Sunshine Coast service has a lot of latent demand also, but I'm not so sure that it is enough that it prioritises the long distance commuters over the shorter ones.

I will agree that only a 15 minute peak service to Nundah and Toombul pre-CRR is a limitation, but I think it is one we have to live with.

The reason for the slow speeds around Roma Street is due to the multiple crossover points and different gauges of track in the area.

Different gauges and the tunnel toward the Merivale Bridge only affect the suburbans.

Something should be done about the mains IMO.  Removing diamond crosses for twin points is an option.  You'll note that I have this one down the priority list, of course.

[O_128]

I would much rather prefer to see doomben ahead of the NCL, in terms of shear passengers that can be carried the doomben line is more important, capacity to caboolture should be second, As much as I would like to see the NCL line upgraded there is no point doing it until camcos is built as well and it can be done in one hit. If you want a good service move closer.  

[ozbob]

Major priorities

Modified CRR (see --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3304.msg53001#msg53001 )

NCL upgrades

Do the track improvements (cross overs etc. ) to at least allow better running and improved options.

[somebody]

I was saying excluding CRR.

I want to add that if we don't do an upgrade to Doomben we would be better off to close it IMO.

[ozbob]

Doomben is planned to be part of Hamilton North Shore plan by ULDA,  whether the ULDA survives is the question.

There has been the some letters lately calling for improved Doomben services by punters.  Linking it up with Cleveland now would work.  The Doomben rail corridor is a real asset. 

[somebody]

Doomben is planned to be part of Hamilton North Shore plan by ULDA,  whether the ULDA survives is the question.

We need a 15 minute peak frequency here regardless.  I'd go further that there should be a 15 minute full time frequency, but I don't see that being implemented by the current authorities.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I am sure that I didn't propose to duplicate beyond Doomben.  Ascot-Doomben has one level crossing and two rail underbridges.  I can conceive that this could swing the desired duplication to the Eagle Junction end.

I know. I was just pointing out that in the future Doomben could only be extended to Hamilton and thats it where as the North Coast line has Caloundra, Nambour, Kippa Ring services and maintainence in the pipeline to consider.

The other issue is that CityTrain has enough trouble attracting pax even in peak.  I give the Sunshine Coast people a low priority here.  We need to get the Virginia-Caboolture people onto the trains, which on current patronage outnumber the Sunshine Coast people more than 12 to 1.  Perhaps the Sunshine Coast service has a lot of latent demand also, but I'm not so sure that it is enough that it prioritises the long distance commuters over the shorter ones.

I would much rather prefer to see doomben ahead of the NCL, in terms of shear passengers that can be carried the doomben line is more important, capacity to caboolture should be second, As much as I would like to see the NCL line upgraded there is no point doing it until camcos is built as well and it can be done in one hit. If you want a good service move closer.  

It's not about moving closer. Its taking into consideration of other services. Doomben/Pinkenba only has CityTrain services and the very very very rare freight (Shunting would be a better description for it recently ). The NCL has CityTrain/TravelTrain/Freight services that have to be taken into account. The freight paths earn them money too. Petrie services only exist because there's no more capacity left to run them to Caboolture without impeeding other services. One Petrie service terminates just so the Rocky Tilt Train can have an uninterrupted run. The same applies coming into Brisbane. Paths that could be used by an all station service can't be run at all becuase they impeed Gympie/Nambour/Travel train/freight services (Mostly between Caboolture-Petrie). Since a train can't run that path they then cram onto another service. Its the same as running Beenleigh All Stations, Beenleigh Express services and Gold Coast Express services from Kuraby-Beenleigh, then chucking in a few freight and then adding a couple Tilt paths. Suddenly there are limited spaces left for services at Beenleigh Station and more trains are terminating at Kuraby.

[somebody]

It's not about moving closer. Its taking into consideration of other services. Doomben/Pinkenba only has CityTrain services and the very very very rare freight (Shunting would be a better description for it recently ). The NCL has CityTrain/TravelTrain/Freight services that have to be taken into account. The freight paths earn them money too. Petrie services only exist because there's no more capacity left to run them to Caboolture without impeeding other services. One Petrie service terminates just so the Rocky Tilt Train can have an uninterrupted run. The same applies coming into Brisbane. Paths that could be used by an all station service can't be run at all becuase they impeed Gympie/Nambour/Travel train/freight services (Mostly between Caboolture-Petrie). Since a train can't run that path they then cram onto another service. Its the same as running Beenleigh All Stations, Beenleigh Express services and Gold Coast Express services from Kuraby-Beenleigh, then chucking in a few freight and then adding a couple Tilt paths. Suddenly there are limited spaces left for services at Beenleigh Station and more trains are terminating at Kuraby.

Aren't you being completely operationally focused here?  Besides, get rid of long distance all stations services in peak.  I would have thought that would be an axiom.

[BrizCommuter]

Lower priorities:

Ferny Grove line works beyond Keperra

So you don't think that the busiest suburban station on the whole network deserved more than an uneven 5tph in the peaks?
BrizCommuter is glad that SEQIPRAIL has it's priorities right in this case.

[aldonius]

Regarding Ferny Grove, given its level of progress, I wouldn't even put it on a list - we don't need to push it beyond "good job delivering the concrete, now deliver the services" once it's done.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Aren't you being completely operationally focused here?  Besides, get rid of long distance all stations services in peak.  I would have thought that would be an axiom.

Wait a minute... So Queensland Rail isn't about looking after every train service that uses their rails?? Perfect  reason to put more trucks on our roads If you can't get the paths to run trains.... well, no service for you. Plain and simple.

Can you please propose how you would organise the alotted 400+ weekly services that go past Caboolture mixed with the services that only go as far as Caboolture and back. I'm very keen to hear how you would prevent these massive bottlenecks and delays as all those different services go through 2 tracks.

And where is all the money for these projects going to come from. They must be rolling in cash if the Government could just sell off the freight division.

[somebody]

So you don't think that the busiest suburban station on the whole network deserved more than an uneven 5tph in the peaks?

Correct, insofar as I don't think it needs more than 5pth.

I think it deserves a 15 minute express service.  The losers of such a plan would be Windsor-Gaythorne.  Saving 4-6 minutes of travel time to Ferny Grove trumps saving 3.75 minutes of average wait time IMO.

Also, it requires less rollingstock and crews to do the express service, with short workings.

You can show me the troll if you like.

Wait a minute... So Queensland Rail isn't about looking after every train service that uses their rails?? Perfect  reason to put more trucks on our roads If you can't get the paths to run trains.... well, no service for you. Plain and simple.

Can you please propose how you would organise the alotted 400+ weekly services that go past Caboolture mixed with the services that only go as far as Caboolture and back. I'm very keen to hear how you would prevent these massive bottlenecks and delays as all those different services go through 2 tracks.

I would have thought they should be about winning patronage - passenger and freight.  I tend to prioritse the passenger side highly.  Historically QR has always prioritised freight.  400 services in 168 hours is a train about every 24 minutes around the clock.  Limiting section is GlassHouse-Beerburrum at 7.2km.  At a 40km/h average speed, that's at about 50% capacity.  The Canadians say you shouldn't exceed 60%.  I'd wonder if services can be fleeted?

If there is that much traffic, isn't there a need for longer trains?  That requires infrastructure, of course.

And where is all the money for these projects going to come from. They must be rolling in cash if the Government could just sell off the freight division.

You have a made a pretty good case for NCL upgrades, so long as you assume that freight upgrades are the most important.  I for one would question this.  The NCL upgrades won't help the Sunshine Coast peak service if there is going to be a 3 minute on the Caboolture line, unless the Sunshine Coast trains would use the suburbans.  That's against sectorisation.

[mufreight]

  That's against sectorisation.

No doubt but sectorisation is a sadly flawed concept in many ways and overall inhibits the maximum utilisation of the infrastructure assetts.

[somebody]

 That's against sectorisation.

No doubt but sectorisation is a sadly flawed concept in many ways and overall inhibits the maximum utilisation of the infrastructure assetts.

When applied rigidly and inflexibly?  Fully agree.

I do agree with the idea that conflicting moves need to minimised though.

Running inbound on the suburbans would conflict with outbound Doomben, Airport and Shorncliffe trains, as well as desiring a different stopping pattern to the inbound trains.  May work out if there is no Doomben upgrade and it languishes on a 2tph peak frequency.  If we have 8/4/4/4 tph on the FG/Doomben/Airport/Shorncliffe line on the suburbans, then there is no path from Bowen Hills to Roma St if you are limiting to 20tph/3 minute frequencies.

Also has conflicts at either Bowen Hills (crossing to the mains) or Roma St (Mayne via #7) without Clapham stabling.  Perhaps we can assume the Clapham stabling.

I don't think Sunshine Coast line on the suburbans is the answer.  EDIT: Maybe if you all stop to Eagle Junction, run every 30 minutes, coordinate with 30 minute frequency Doomben trains and add a 15 minute frequency all stopping Shorncliffe peak service.  That would be enough to free the Caboolture line from serving Albion/W/Nundah/T IMO.

[Golliwog]

So you don't think that the busiest suburban station on the whole network deserved more than an uneven 5tph in the peaks?

Correct, insofar as I don't think it needs more than 5pth.

I think it deserves a 15 minute express service.  The losers of such a plan would be Windsor-Gaythorne.  Saving 4-6 minutes of travel time to Ferny Grove trumps saving 3.75 minutes of average wait time IMO.

Also, it requires less rollingstock and crews to do the express service, with short workings.

You can show me the troll if you like.

NO! The Ferny Grove line doesn't need expresses! I use it from Ferny Grove, and I do catch the 7.06am express, but not because its an express but because it runs at the time I need it to and it runs through to Park Rd. We would benefit much more from an even travel pattern instead of the current morning services of 6:00, 6:14, 6:30, 6:45, 7:06 (exp), 7:16, 7:26, 7:43, 7:55, 8:07(different express), 8:20, 8:30, 9:01.

Give us an even service pattern!

[somebody]

Give us an even service pattern!

For the record, I did say an even service pattern.  Maybe I could have said it more clearly.

Can you please propose how you would organise the alotted 400+ weekly services that go past Caboolture

For the record, I counted the services on the Sunshine Coast timetable, and there are 219 revenue passenger services/week, by my count.  Strangely, a weekday sees 16 inbound services and 18 outbound services.  Add in traveltrain, and I have to wonder how you could prioritise freight ahead of pax.

[HappyTrainGuy]

For the record, I counted the services on the Sunshine Coast timetable, and there are 219 revenue passenger services/week, by my count.  Strangely, a weekday sees 16 inbound services and 18 outbound services.  Add in traveltrain, and I have to wonder how you could prioritise freight ahead of pax.

How would you propose that they run freight then? The fact is its one inbound and one outbound track that has to take the load of express, all stations, freight and other services between Caboolture and Petrie. Freight doesn't run to schedule everyday so they have allocated paths (Which is around 140... might be more assigned freight paths). People on here are advocating for more road freight to be put back on to rail and yet people here want more services. I see a little irony.

[somebody]

For the record, I counted the services on the Sunshine Coast timetable, and there are 219 revenue passenger services/week, by my count.  Strangely, a weekday sees 16 inbound services and 18 outbound services.  Add in traveltrain, and I have to wonder how you could prioritise freight ahead of pax.

How would you propose that they run freight then? The fact is its one inbound and one outbound track that has to take the load of express, all stations, freight and other services between Caboolture and Petrie. Freight doesn't run to schedule everyday so they have allocated paths (Which is around 140... might be more assigned freight paths). People on here are advocating for more road freight to be put back on to rail and yet people here want more services. I see a little irony.

Run freight at all?

In detail, northbound services could follow Nambour/GYN trains but likely need to hold at Beerburrum.  It is likely that the southbound pax train which crosses the northbound pax train at Beerwah or GlassHouse would reach Beerburrum before the freight train anyway.  It may then need to enter every alternate/every third loop to cross pax/freight trains.  Southbound it may be less possible to use the middle road, you may need to trail a stopper, which is a pain for freight.  You would still need to enter every alternate/every third loop heading south at high capacity times.

I'd have to say that RAILBoT has often called for more infrastructure for the Sunshine Coast line.  So I'm not sure where irony comes in.

[O_128]

Perhaps QR national should be putting some money in then, if we are going to be upgrading the sunshine coast line maybe we should build for the future and just do 4 tracks in one go?. at the very least it would make sense to quad the line from lawnton to petrie rather than triplicate it and then quad the rest of the line later

[mufreight]

On the subject of freight consider these points.
If the rail infrastructure can not support the operation of freight services that freight goes on to road, at legal axle loads that would mean something like an additional 45 B Double units to move the current size train on the NCL
Road freight cost for road are roughly 40% higher per tonne than rail (note this is operating costs not the actual charges by the road freight operators.
Australia, particularly Queensland and Western Australia are highly dependent on land freight transport, the higher the costs of this the higher cost to the national economy which feeds down to the State and local economies and in turn to all who are consumers of any items moved by transport in any form, bottom line, YOU.
If the rail system can not meet this freight task and it has to be carried by road the then becomes a higher cost to the economy in terms both the additional costs of providing road infrastructure, then the ongoing costs of maintaining that road infrastructure and the considerably higher costs in operating freight services by road.  Add to this the costs that increased road traffic imposes on the health system due to higher accident rates and the lives lost, costs of victim recovery, and the more direct cost to the economy of the loss of accident victims contribution to the workforce and the tax base.
Who pays for all of this? YOU through taxes of the failure of government to provide services.

Passenger services are essential to enable workers to commute, freight services are equaly essential to ensure that we have work and can live.
Obviously both have to be catered for so the answer requires more rail infrastructure such as the duplication and realignment of the NCL from Beerburrum at least to Nambour and longer passing loops north to Rockhampton to enable the operation reliable passenger services and rail freight to compete with road

[mufreight]

Perhaps QR national should be putting some money in then, if we are going to be upgrading the sunshine coast line maybe we should build for the future and just do 4 tracks in one go?. at the very least it would make sense to quad the line from lawnton to petrie rather than triplicate it and then quad the rest of the line later

QR National and Pacific National both contribute by payment of track access fees.

[somebody]

Ok, but if freight justifies the NCL duplication/straightening on its own, then I want a business case.

[Derwan]

My list of high priority infrastructure besides CRR is (in order):
...
Sandgate platform #2 upgrades

Lower priorities:
Shorncliffe duplication

Nundah and Toombul I say should certainly be skipped when Shorncliffe is given a 15 minute peak service.

While the 15-minute peak frequency is possible (with the Sandgate platform 2 upgrades), without the Shorncliffe duplication there will be little margin for error.  One late train could have flow-on effects.

If part of the plan is to use the Shorncliffe line to effectively service Nundah, Toombul, Wooloowin and Albion, the Shorncliffe duplication needs a higher priority.

[Fares_Fair]

Ok, but if freight justifies the NCL duplication/straightening on its own, then I want a business case.

Hello somebody,

I have just come into this discussion, so I hope I aren't treading on any toes.

I believe that freight does have a case of it's own on the congested NCL.
There are plenty of government reports and papers that consolidate this view.
The up-side is that they can also improve passenger services via duplication.

The information below is from my report on the Sunshine Coast Case.
My full report found here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5705.msg51639#new
Relevant excerpts shown below.

Point 9.
Inner City Rail Capacity Study: MBP (2008),
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/da0198b7-14c9-4603-98db-0bfa1ed65fe3/pdf_icrcs_stage_3_technical_pre_feasibility_appendix_a_3_passenger_demands.pdf

This study produced for Queensland Transport and jointly prepared by Maunsell |AECOM, Parsons Brinckerhoff, KPMG, Veitch Lister Consulting (vlc) and SYSTEMWIDE,
states in its';

Service Numbers – North  p20,
"The Caboolture and North Coast lines have the greatest forecast increase in patronage before 2026, whereas the Shorncliffe, Doomben and Airport lines are not expected to increase greatly."

Point 10.
Inner City Rail Capacity Study - Stage 3 Freight Analysis (2008),
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/af53e52d-d3ef-4e57-a3c6-cb2d650cef2c/pdf_icrcs_stage_3_technical_pre_feasibility_appendix_b.pdf
This report produced for Queensland Transport by SYSTEMWIDE, states in Chapter 9;

Conclusion  p25,
"From an inner city perspective, the best course of action for the future of freight is to increase the North coast intermodal train consist lengths to 1500m. Doing so will
alleviate the need to upgrade the inner city, and will allow the current (desired) freight distribution to be maintained with operational viability. If 1500m trains
cannot be accommodated, the freight services should be spread apart ...

This will avoid infrastructure upgrades to the inner city under medium growth, and only requires a fifth track around Roma West junction under high growth to ensure a robust operation.
 
The freight curfew should remain, as running freight services during the peak hour can only be achieved by extensive additional infrastructure, or by removing passenger services causing unacceptable overloading."

The North Coast Line (NCL) is limited by the length of the smallest loop, currently 682 m. (i.e. no freight train longer than 670 metres can be currently accommodated).


Point 11.
Submission to Infrastructure Australia re: the Brisbane Cairns Corridor (2008)
by Dr. Philip Laird, FCILT, Comp IE Aust, University of Wollongong
http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/public_submissions/published/files/82_smasuniversityofwollongong_SUB.pdf

Introduction  p1,
The accompanying submission was made during 2006 to the AusLink draft Brisbane-Cairns Corridor Strategy and was based on research conducted at the University of Wollongong.
Input also arose from earlier consulting for Queensland Transport. However, the views and research findings are the responsibility of the writer, Dr Philip Laird, FCILT, Comp IE Aust, from the University of Wollongong.

"It is suggested however that three issues warrant more attention than given in the final strategies in consideration of all candidates for Building Australia funding."
* reduction of total costs including external costs
* reduction of carbon pollution, and
* reduction of dependence upon imported oil.

Reduction of total costs including external costs.  p2,
"Rail is three times more efficient than road in using fuel to move freight."

A recent paper.  p3,
The conclusions of a recent paper of this writer "The Brisbane-Cairns Railway:building on success" given at the Australian Rail Summit in July 2008 at Sydney follows.

"Work is nearing completion to duplicate Caboolture - Beerburrum on an improved alignment and should proceed without delay to Landsborough.
Further upgrading of the Queensland North Coast line including track straightening from Landsborough to ... At least Maryborough West is now needed ... and should receive Federal funding."

A special corridor. p5, Section 4B.
"The Caboolture - Nambour track is now probably the most congested section of single rail track in Australia. It was recognised as congested as long ago as 1994 in the BTCE report of the National Transport Planning Taskforce."

"This is shown by freight train curfews in peak hours, expanding the Brisbane Rockhampton electric tilt train transit time from 7 hrs to 7 hr 15 min in 2003, and, before then the introduction of the Caboolture - Nambour 'railway' bus." (comprising 44% as of June 6, 2011 - of weekday services).

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[#Metro]

North Coast line needs priority. It is like the main highway out of Brisbane. Doomben, Shorncliffe and even Airport lines are like sub arterials/avenues. Important but not as important as the central artery.

[HappyTrainGuy]

When they duplicate Caboolture-Nambour/Gympie, Petrie-Caboolture also needs to be upgraded as well to prevent services from clashing from ramped up services from other projects.

So I'm not sure where irony comes in.

Advocating for ramping up passenger services while not reguarding enough for freight services to be used on the same track when it gets to the Caboolture-Bowen Hills sections (In regards to the NCL).

Perhaps QR national should be putting some money in then, if we are going to be upgrading the sunshine coast line maybe we should build for the future and just do 4 tracks in one go?. at the very least it would make sense to quad the line from lawnton to petrie rather than triplicate it and then quad the rest of the line later

QR National and Pacific National both contribute by payment of track access fees.

Yep, both QRN and PNQ pay access fees to use the rail and in return QR looks after, maintains and repairs the infrastructure.

[somebody]

While the 15-minute peak frequency is possible (with the Sandgate platform 2 upgrades), without the Shorncliffe duplication there will be little margin for error.  One late train could have flow-on effects.

If part of the plan is to use the Shorncliffe line to effectively service Nundah, Toombul, Wooloowin and Albion, the Shorncliffe duplication needs a higher priority.

I don't think so.  As I've said on a number of occasions, Sandgate-Shorncliffe-Sandgate is a 4 minute run.  If there is an 8 minute turnaround, there is still 3 minutes margin.  There are numerous other places on the network that have significantly less margin, e.g. Park Rd junction & Bowen Hills on the suburbans.  Also Northgate & Milton on the mains.

So let me put it this way: Why does Shorncliffe require significantly more margin than other locations on the network?

[somebody]

Further to my last post, the ICRCS suggested 6tph as the limiting case for Shorncliffe without duplication.

I suspect that the 6tph could require 3 car trains & 6 minute turnarounds - not a good idea.

I really don't understand how it can be believed that 4tph peak isn't achievable. I don't mean to be harsh.

[Stillwater]

Because the assumption is that is always smack on time at Sandgate, wherever else it comes from.  What happens if a Shorncliffe-bound train is already running late when it gets to Sandgate?  Its ability to go Sandgate-Shorncliffe-Sandgate on the single line and be able to pass a train going the other way at Sandgate again gets a bit close for comfort.

[BrizCommuter]

Further to my last post, the ICRCS suggested 6tph as the limiting case for Shorncliffe without duplication.

I suspect that the 6tph could require 3 car trains & 6 minute turnarounds - not a good idea.

I really don't understand how it can be believed that 4tph peak isn't achievable. I don't mean to be harsh.

Actually the ICRCS says that a duplication is required in 2014, when more than 4tph need to be run in peak.
p20 and p96 of ICRCS - Rail Operations Review.

[somebody]

What happens if a Shorncliffe-bound train is already running late when it gets to Sandgate?  

I'd suggest that it depends how late.  If it's 5 minutes late, then the subsequent inbound train runs 2 minutes late, if the turnaround can't be squeezed.  Not the end of the world, although it may lose its path at Bowen Hills.  Express running Eagle Junction-Bowen Hills could allow it to catch up. 

The other possibility is that the outbound train is more like 12 minutes late.  In this case Sandgate reversing may need to apply.  The very late train probably needs to proceed to Shorncliffe unless a faster than 8 minute turnaround can be done at Sandgate, but the following outbound train (3 minutes behind) could reverse at Sandgate and attempt to resume the earlier train's path, with the train at Shorncliffe doing the following train's run.  Causes issues for crew scheduling, but I'm sure that other railways around the world could work it out.

There could be stand by crews at Shorncliffe to allow the turnaround to be squeezed and aid reliability.

Got to say, I'm getting sick of the line: It can't be done because it doesn't have 5+ minutes margin.  What railway around the world, outside the third world, operates on such principles?

[somebody]

FWIW, the ICRCS pre-feasibility report costs some of these options:
Clapham stabling $20m-$30m
Beerburrum-Landsborough duplication $200m-$300m
Thorneside stabling $10m-$20m
Nambour stabling $10m-$20m
Kuraby-Loganlea triplication $250m-$400m - as 2 projects though

Shorncliffe duplication $50m-$100m
Keperra-Ferny Grove duplication $50m-$100m
Lawnton-Petrie triplication $50m-$100m
Redbank stabling $20m-$50m

I'm not in love with the allocation of the available cash! Beerburrum-Landsborough is pretty much the same cost as the Salisbury-Kuraby triple ($256m)!

The Gold Coasters could have lived with a roughly 20 minute frequency without the ridiculous longitudinal seating, perhaps combined with a longer duration to the peak frequency.

[BrizCommuter]

Got to say, I'm getting sick of the line: It can't be done because it doesn't have 5+ minutes margin.  What railway around the world, outside the third world, operates on such principles?

The problem is that many other railways also have enough infrastructure and sufficient frequency that a delay is not a serious issue, thus huge operating margins are not required.. Unfortunately Brisbane's rail network is riddled with so many infrastructure constraints, and poor frequencies (not helped by having so many branches) that late running trains are a serious issue.

[BrizCommuter]

The Gold Coasters could have lived with a roughly 20 minute frequency without the ridiculous longitudinal seating, perhaps combined with a longer duration to the peak frequency.

Trolling Ferny Grove, Shorncliffe, and Gold Coast Line commuters all in one day? 

[somebody]

The Gold Coasters could have lived with a roughly 20 minute frequency without the ridiculous longitudinal seating, perhaps combined with a longer duration to the peak frequency.

Trolling Ferny Grove, Shorncliffe, and Gold Coast Line commuters all in one day? 

In fact, a 15 minute service Gold Coast without Salisbury-Kuraby is achievable, but would be less reliable.  Coopers Plains-Beenleigh, skipping Banoon is a 33 minute run, while the Coastie does it in 24 minutes.  Starting at Beenleigh 3 minutes behind the Coastie makes it 3 minutes ahead of the following Coastie at Coopers Plains.

IIRC, you have observed that the Gold Coast commuters have a lot of political clout.  This really rams it home to me.

The problem is that many other railways also have enough infrastructure and sufficient frequency that a delay is not a serious issue, thus huge operating margins are not required.. Unfortunately Brisbane's rail network is riddled with so many infrastructure constraints, and poor frequencies (not helped by having so many branches) that late running trains are a serious issue.

I have certainly noticed that a lot of needed bits have been omitted from infrastructure projects.  Most notably, the lack of a crossover from the Up Main approaching Coopers Plains without conflicting with inbound trains.  Also the bizarre arrangements with Roma St #7 and Northgate #3/#4.

[O_128]

If you are going to triplicate all the way to loganlea wouldn't it make sense to keep going to holmsview as there is plenty of room, the only issue going to beenleigh is the tunnel

[somebody]

If you are going to triplicate all the way to loganlea wouldn't it make sense to keep going to holmsview as there is plenty of room, the only issue going to beenleigh is the tunnel

There's a short bridge in the way.