New Timetables 2011 June

[somebody]

Two trains per hour out of Ipswich tiered is not going to get the punters support, three might, 4 certainly will.

I think 2tph express would get some support, because at least it's an improvement on what they have now.....The Gold Coast has a full time express service at 2tph.

I agree, but you do have to look at colinw's comments on a 2tph Express Park Rd to Coopers Plains system vs a 4tph all stopping service.

Anyway, it really needs to be 4tph All to Richlands + 4tph express to Ipswich.  Anything which makes such a timetable harder to implement in the future should be resisted IMO.

I am not so sure they would see it that way.  Many more pax travel to intermediate stations on the Ipswich line than on the Gold Coast services, and it is really a different sort of service.  You don't have the suburban service (Beenleigh) overlayed by a true express long haul (Gold Coast) in the same way on the Ipswich line. If there is a frequency win to balance the need to transfer at Darra then probably will stick.  To just change the two per hour to express and offer no other benefit for the many who actually use the intermediate stations will not be popular at all.  I doubt if it would be implemented.  Go to three per hour and might just work.

Other than Indro and Toowong, I wouldn't expect too many of these.  And they can interchange.  It's not that hard.

[ozbob]

Anyway, it really needs to be 4tph All to Richlands + 4tph express to Ipswich.  Anything which makes such a timetable harder to implement in the future should be resisted IMO.

The point is we are simply not going to get 4tph for years it seems under the present regime.   I see no problem in moving to a compromise timetable pending the 4tph.  Otherwise everyone just languishes until then with the present poor service.  Incremental improvements can be achieved.

[somebody]

If you assume the 8 minute saving from a 2tph express timetable, that's a 15 minute average wait less an 8 minute faster service; that nets to a 7 minute average wait.  This is (just) superior to a 4tph all stopping service, except for those going to different locations.  I think we need to push for it.  If they won't do it, then why not?

It's not just about frequency.

[petey3801]

I think, no matter what frequency we have Ipswich as, the Richlands (all-stopper) service needs to be 15-min frequency in order to have good frequencies Darra-CBD (and corresponding service on the north), with the Ipswich having an around-the-clock express service.

If the All Stopper frequency is 15-min, we could have 30-min express on Ipswich or change it to 20-min or even back to 15-min when the time comes. Changing the Ipswich frequencies won't mean a change in the all-stopper frequency, so you are really only altering one line instead of two... If that makes sense...

[ozbob]

7 minute average wait?  Someone at Goodna misses the train is still going to wait 29 minutes for the next, regardless.  This is what you are up against ...  they might end up with a shorter journey time depending on their destination, and then again they might not ...

The 2 tph hour express in from Ipswich is dependent on 4 tph Richlands.  Do you really think that frequency to Richlands is achievable?

[ozbob]

Do you really think that frequency to Richlands is achievable?

I will answer that myself.  If they can put on a P88 and leave the GCL in limbo, they can do that I guess  ... LOL

[ozbob]

Where do the Richlands trains go?  Petrie, Bowen Hills?  Doomben?  Kippa-Ring??  Shorncliffe?  Half to Petrie, half to Shorncliffe?

The half baked track arrangement between Darra and Corinda might make for some interesting times as well, particularly with the freight coming through on the up/down subs, might go back onto the mains which kind of defeats the so called rationale of not electrifying the up sub 'the freight line' ...  oh dear, penny wise pound foolish strikes again ...

[somebody]

7 minute average net wait?  Someone at Goodna misses the train is still going to wait 29 minutes for the next, regardless.  This is what you are up against ...  they might end up with a shorter journey time depending on their destination, and then again they might not ...

The 2 tph hour express in from Ipswich is dependent on 4 tph Richlands.  Do you really think that frequency to Richlands is achievable?

But let's look at your worst case scenario, someone misses a train at Redbank by 1 minute going to Central.

20 minute all station frequency:
wait 19 minutes, but takes 42 minutes to reach Central: total 61 minutes.

30 minute express Darra-Indro-Milton:
wait 29 minutes, but takes 36 minutes to reach Central: total 65 minutes.

So, in 1/3 of times you are waiting 4 minutes worse off, but 2/3 of times you are 8 minutes better off.  Anyone that can read a timetable should get the 8 minutes most of the time.

This trade off looks much worse than it needs to because of the mediocre 55km/h speed Darra-Milton of the express service.

Where do the Richlands trains go?  Petrie, Bowen Hills?  Doomben?  Kippa-Ring??  Shorncliffe?  Half to Petrie, half to Shorncliffe?

Petrie.

[ozbob]

20 minute all station frequency:

But I am suggesting 20 minute express frequency.  That would be the hook.

[somebody]

But I am suggesting 20 minute express frequency.  That would be the hook.

You are?  So then there would be a reduction in service at Chelmer, Graceville and Sherwood.  Also Auchenflower and Taringa, I guess.  Not sure about Corinda and Oxley either.

[ozbob]

I said that earlier above, there would be a reduction from 15 to 20 minute off peak on the 3 tph scenario.  That is not the end of the world though.

The gain is all stations north of Northgate and west of Darra go from 30 minute to 20 minute with express services around the clock in from Petrie and Darra.   

I am just not confident that they will move to a core 4 tph on the network for many years yet ... wish they would but I have grave doubts, so looking at an achievable compromise now is a worthwhile exercise.

[somebody]

Hmm,
Such a timetable may have been achievable for the Ippy if implemented on opening of Richlands.  The issue is north of Bowen Hills.  They have always had a 15 minute frequency.  To get a tiered service here, you need to reduce frequency at Albion, W, Nundah, T.  Although I like the idea of getting a 20 minute frequency for Shorncliffe.

20 minute Doomben frequency is achievable on current infrastructure, if the station is to be manned full time. That would allow 10 minute frequency at Albion/W and CAB trains to miss that, I guess.

[Arnz]

An alternative (but not ideal) suggestion is synching the Airport and Doomben trains in off-peak.  This would mean upping the Doomben trains to 30 minutes, and renegotiating the Airtrain contracts to stop at Albion and Wooloowin.  

This would allow CAB, PET & NBR trains to skip Alb+Wool all around (all 3 trains would still need to service TOOM+NUN) .  Any passengers further north for ALB+WOOL can change at either NG or EJ.

[justanotheruser]

BUT there is something else at play as well, and it is the punter reaction west of Darra, and north of Northgate.  This should not be discounted. They are feeling mightily aggrieved and starting to take it out on the political players. This means that current plans can be easily turned on their head as has often happened in the land of Oz in the past.  There is also the simple fact that the load pressure is really starting to build, particularly on the northern line.  They might be forced to move sooner than later.  What will be interesting, and I mentioned this earlier, what is the opposition going to do?  At the moment they may as well not be there.  Does anyone know who is their transport / public transport spokesperson/s these days? 

according to some here it doesn't matter if punters are upset as people apparently won't vote for the devil they don't know so won't vote LNP!

[justanotheruser]

I think, no matter what frequency we have Ipswich as, the Richlands (all-stopper) service needs to be 15-min frequency in order to have good frequencies Darra-CBD (and corresponding service on the north), with the Ipswich having an around-the-clock express service.

If the All Stopper frequency is 15-min, we could have 30-min express on Ipswich or change it to 20-min or even back to 15-min when the time comes. Changing the Ipswich frequencies won't mean a change in the all-stopper frequency, so you are really only altering one line instead of two... If that makes sense...

A change to ipswich trains will affect richlands trains in terms of logistics. Running the extra trains along the track and fitting them in as well as allowing for freight.

[Gazza]

I said that earlier above, there would be a reduction from 15 to 20 minute off peak on the 3 tph scenario.  That is not the end of the world though.

The gain is all stations north of Northgate and west of Darra go from 30 minute to 20 minute with express services around the clock in from Petrie and Darra.   

I am just not confident that they will move to a core 4 tph on the network for many years yet ... wish they would but I have grave doubts, so looking at an achievable compromise now is a worthwhile exercise.

I cant really support a reduction in frequency and diverting the resources elsewhere....It's a bit like Un-BUZzing a BUZ back to a 20 min frequency, and then 'donating' the extra bus to a 30 minute route to make it a 20 minute route.

We've finally got to the 'magical'  4tph on one of our lines full time, and I don't want to see that win taken away, so I'd much rather leave it as it is, see the patronage grow (As happened with BUZ), and use the success of it as something that can be pointed to down the track ("See, we were right!") to then push for it on the rest of the lines.

As Somebody said, you are only 4 mins worse off under a 2tph express scenario, and it ultimatley does reflect that inbound from Darra the population density and walkup catchement is more intensive, and that when you get further out, trips on PT are less likely to be spontaneous.

[ozbob]

You are entitled to your opinion.  But we need to consider the whole of community.  A few stations benefit now whereas with the scenario I have suggested much more of the network immediately benefits. Improving the frequency for every station of west of Darra and north of Northgate for a slight reduction from 15 minutes to 20 minute for a handful of stations between Darra and Milton by comparison, including implementation of tiered express services around the clock to and from CBD <->  Petrie (CAB), and CBD <-> Darra (IPS) is a much more equitable outcome.  26 stations on the northern and western line would get an improvement in frequency. Stations which would have a reduction from 15 minutes to 20 minutes off peak would be Oxley, Corinda, Sherwood, Graceville, Chelmer, Taringa, Toowong, and Auchenflower (8 stations). Indooroopilly and Milton would have a 10 minute frequency.  Lets be real, prior to Richlands, these stations (Corinda to Milton) only ever had 15 minutes during the weekday daily off peak, it has been 30 minutes or worse for the rest of time outside peak and weekends.  Contrast that with the stations west of Darra and north of Northgate, which is more equitable? So you are happy for a few to have a good service whilst the majority wait years and years for something a bit better than 30 minutes or longer frequency?  

On the scenario I have outlined Richlands goes from 2 tph to 3 tph as well!

Petrie would also have a 10 minute frequency.

We can dream on about 4 tph all over, but it is not going happen for a long time yet.  Far better to move incrementally to improve frequency in a more equitable manner in steps, which in itself will generate higher patronage and put more pressure on for further upgrades IMHO.    

[#Metro]

Yes,  the timetable is better structured to allow more easy seamless additions down the track is one message that has been conveyed to me.

As much as folks want frequency everywhere all the time, it is not logistically possible.  It will be a steady progression from here.  I think 20 minutes as a target is a good thing to aim for first.

eg. Twenty minutes trains Ipswich to Caboolture out of peak.  Richlands 20 minutes, then 10 minutes Darra to CBD.  Run Richlands trains through to Petrie.  This gives a ten minute frequency Petrie <--> Darra.  Shorncliffe <-> Cleveland 20 minute.  Ferny Grove <-> Beenleigh 20 minute.

I am keen to see if the Oppostion will ever have a policy on what they would do to increase train frequency?   The LNP has gone into hiding ..

Playing with the idea... it might be a good stepping stone.
The stations with lower frequency could be compensated by way of boosting bus services along Oxley Road- these go to Indooroopilly Bus station, and maybe they could be extended a little to finish at Indooroopilly station...

What's needed is a frequency policy.

[ozbob]

Yes, what worries me it will be another 13 years or so before any real frequency improvements on the rest of the network ...  hence mind games for incremental improvement options.  The remaining lines could also move to a 20 minute base off peak frequency as well. Present infrastructure would support that, and still allow the necessary freight and other paths needed.  Peak simply go to 10 minute, or even 5 minute depending on loads.  KISS.  Rail network pulses on 20 minutes .. be nice if it was 15 minutes but prior form suggests it won't be ...

[somebody]

Let's just clarify what you are saying here:

20 minute frequency Richlands-Petrie, all stations
20 minute frequency IPS-CAB, all to Darra-Indro-Milton all to Bowen Hills, Eagle Junction, Northgate, Petrie all to Caboolture.

Possibly reversed pairings (RCH-CAB+IPS-PET), but that's not really the point.  No change for Shorncliffe, is that correct?

I'd suggest that there would be more resistance to such a plan than just extending the current Richlands trains to allow 15 minute frequency to Petrie.  Major limitation is the reduction in frequency for Albion, W, Nundah, T.  That will certainly p%ss people off.  Or did you mean all stopping on this corridor?  If we are going with a 20 minute cycle, I think we need to find a way to inlcude Shorncliffe.  Milton isn't a busy station outside of peak times when there isn't a game on.  I'd rather serve Toowong.  I also have issues with not serving Oxley, although that one could be argued. It is completely normal for different patterns to apply peak and off peak.

No one voted for 20 minute cycles in this poll for the CAB line: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5627.0
Only 2 votes from 11 for 20 minute cycles for Shorncliffe here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5222.0
IPS line did get a bit of support for 6tph Ipswich line here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5383.0

In the last poll, no poster suggested a tiered service on a 20 minute cycle.  It wasn't clear what was really being suggested.

Doesn't seem like 20 minute cycles are widely supported by RailBoT members does it?

We need to break the perception that the rail system is a waste of money.  I really do not think they will completely re-write the timetables to allow for a 20 minute cycle.  We need to press them for doing something they can do easily, and namely a 4tph service to Petrie, at a minimum.

Back when a user posted under stephenk, he said that 15 minutes is much more attractive than a 20 minute frequency. I have to agree with this.

[#Metro]

The way I see it, we can't get crisp apple, we have rotten apple, the intermediate step might be blemished apple. Still not as tasty as crisp apple, but so much better than rotten apple...

Maybe we need to debate 20 minute frequency. I think the previous votes were taken with a view that 15 minute was possible-- maybe it is but I agree that we could lower our expectations to see if we can get some kind of improvement sooner. I don't want to wait until 2021 for my train frequency to increase!



http://mappingcompanysuccess.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/rotten_apples.jpg

[ozbob]

I agree that 15 minutes is better for a whole lot of reasons.  But as I said this is just a thought exercise.  Frankly I am tired on inaction with respect to frequency, it does seem that 15 minutes is just too hard for our operators and planners.  They are unable to drive it through treasury or government.  I can recall the then transport Minister (Mr Lucas) many years ago saying that 15 minute frequency is the plan ...

On the scenario I outlined the Petrie to Richlands trains are all stoppers. Don't forget Shorncliffe services still running through.  The only reduction would be Milton to Oxley as outlined. It is a neat way of gaining limited tier expresses as well.

[somebody]

On the scenario I outlined the Petrie to Richlands trains are all stoppers. Don't forget Shorncliffe services still running through. 

Shorncliffe trains do not divide the shortest gaps though.

[ozbob]

Shorncliffe would go to 20 minute as well under this scenario.  Probably manageable, not sure if 15 minutes would be.

[somebody]

Shorncliffe would go to 20 minute as well under this scenario.  Probably manageable, not sure if 15 minutes would be.

How?  Roma St/South Bank starters?

[david]

I cant really support a reduction in frequency and diverting the resources elsewhere....It's a bit like Un-BUZzing a BUZ back to a 20 min frequency, and then 'donating' the extra bus to a 30 minute route to make it a 20 minute route.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Translink do this when they introduced the 443 rocket bus? They reduced the 444BUZ to a 10 minute frequency and donated the spare buses to the 443. In essence, isn't this also what Bob is proposing?

Loads from Ipswich and Caboolture during off-peak can be quite substantial, so I would support some form of tiered service. I would support additional stops on the express patterns off-peak though, similar to Gold Coast services. I would definitely support stops at Toowong and maybe Corinda on the Ipswich line and possibly reduce the express on the Caboolture line to make it express Northgate to Strathpine. Going all the way to Petrie is a little excessive for off-peak. Whether or not freight/other train paths will allow for that is another matter.

[ozbob]

Yes, definitely agree that Toowong would be a stop, northside haven't given it a great deal of thought but Strathpine should be included, and possibly all stations as you suggest Petrie to Strathpine.

[ozbob]

Shorncliffe would go to 20 minute as well under this scenario.  Probably manageable, not sure if 15 minutes would be.

How?  Roma St/South Bank starters?

Run Shorncliffe - Cleveland as a sector, 20 minutes out of peak.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Have freight/TravelTrain/Infrastructure been taken into consideration for these extra services?

[ozbob]

Yes, read up earlier.  If twenty minutes is not achievable then 15 minutes will never be ... 

[somebody]

Shorncliffe would go to 20 minute as well under this scenario.  Probably manageable, not sure if 15 minutes would be.

How?  Roma St/South Bank starters?

Run Shorncliffe - Cleveland as a sector, 20 minutes out of peak.

Not achievable on the single track.  Maybe duplications Manly-Lota crossing at WP would change this, but only if 2 minutes or more are able to be trimmed from the inbound time.

Certainly duplications Thorneside-WP would allow it.

I cant really support a reduction in frequency and diverting the resources elsewhere....It's a bit like Un-BUZzing a BUZ back to a 20 min frequency, and then 'donating' the extra bus to a 30 minute route to make it a 20 minute route.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Translink do this when they introduced the 443 rocket bus? They reduced the 444BUZ to a 10 minute frequency and donated the spare buses to the 443. In essence, isn't this also what Bob is proposing?

Loads from Ipswich and Caboolture during off-peak can be quite substantial, so I would support some form of tiered service. I would support additional stops on the express patterns off-peak though, similar to Gold Coast services. I would definitely support stops at Toowong and maybe Corinda on the Ipswich line and possibly reduce the express on the Caboolture line to make it express Northgate to Strathpine. Going all the way to Petrie is a little excessive for off-peak. Whether or not freight/other train paths will allow for that is another matter.

Not completely comparable though.  The service on 444 was still 10 minute frequency in the time period affected.

[ozbob]

Cross at Wellington point, island platform.

6 minutes Cleveland to WP.

Unless a further duplication/loop yes not achievable.   So much for 15 minute frequency ... lol

The rail network is a basket case ...

[Gazza]

You are entitled to your opinion.  But we need to consider the whole of community.  A few stations benefit now whereas with the scenario I have suggested much more of the network immediately benefits. Improving the frequency for every station of west of Darra and north of Northgate for a slight reduction from 15 minutes to 20 minute for a handful of stations between Darra and Milton by comparison, including implementation of tiered express services around the clock to and from CBD <->  Petrie (CAB), and CBD <-> Darra (IPS) is a much more equitable outcome.  26 stations on the northern and western line would get an improvement in frequency. Stations which would have a reduction from 15 minutes to 20 minutes off peak would be Oxley, Corinda, Sherwood, Graceville, Chelmer, Taringa, Toowong, and Auchenflower (8 stations). Indooroopilly and Milton would have a 10 minute frequency.  Lets be real, prior to Richlands, these stations (Corinda to Milton) only ever had 15 minutes during the weekday daily off peak, it has been 30 minutes or worse for the rest of time outside peak and weekends.  

Contrast that with the stations west of Darra and north of Northgate, which is more equitable? So you are happy for a few to have a good service whilst the majority wait years and years for something a bit better than 30 minutes or longer frequency?  

But there is already inequity in the rail network, look at the situation on the Doomben and Sunshine Coast lines compared to elsewhere, and the fact only a fraction of SEQ gets BUZ, despite the obvious potential of many other routes.

Do we have it so that extra services are always spread evenly, but still not particularly frequent overall, or do we try and work on areas where the extra services will definitely be popular, due to more intensive land use, proximity/creating access to major trip generators etc.....It's a complex issue.

You are entitled to your opinion.  But we need to consider the whole of community.  A few stations benefit now whereas with the scenario I have suggested much more of the network immediately benefits.

And whilst the views of the community are important, they can't always be relied upon. What about when CRR got announced, and there was immediate uproar from people in the outer suburbs, saying "Build a train line here instead". Obviously you can't listen to the public sometimes if they don' see the bigger picture.
Nobody likes admitting it, but higher density needs higher frequency.

I still think using the future success of the 4tph Darra-CBD line can be used as a catalyst...We've had success in pushing for periodicals, why cant this be the next big thing? Even if every line doesn't get 4tph overnight, working around the network and getting it progressively implemented is still a positive.

I don't really think 3tph is a worthwhile improvement. It's not TUAG.

[Stillwater]

Baby steps, people.  Baby steps.  One step, though not big, is heading in the right direction.  Push for 15 min frequency as ideal and recognise that 20 min frequency is a positive move towards the ultimate goal.  It is not a case of giving up on the goal.

[somebody]

Cross at Wellington point, island platform.

6 minutes Cleveland to WP.

Unless a further duplication/loop yes not achievable.   So much for 15 minute frequency ... lol

The rail network is a basket case ...

And if that doesn't work out, then I say the whole 20 minute cycle doesn't work out.  I do not think that is being too severe.  What do you say about the members views which aren't supportive of 20 minute cycles largely?  If you feel this hasn't been established, we can have another poll.  I'm not sure what ground it would need to cover which hasn't been already though.

We need to press for an upgrade on the CAB line, followed by inner BNH/FG then Manly/Shorncliffe.  Don't you think so?

Gazza, please get your quotes right.  Ozbob said your first paragraph, not you.  Very confusing reading that post.

[ozbob]

Yes, I agree it is a complex issue Gazza, that is why exploring different options is worthwhile.  

Lets look at the Ferny Grove line, upgradeable to 15 minute frequency?  Yes for sure.  Where does it run to though, Beenleigh?  That is probably not achievable either.  So Beenleigh stays on a mediocre 30 minutes and every second train from Ferny Gove terminates say at Kuraby or Roma St?

Cleveland cannot even manage 20 minutes, let alone 15. Is there enough capacity north of Northgate for 15 minutes up and down?  Considering all the other traffic?  Hard to say isn't it?  So what happens, we are stuck.  QR possibly think they can run a better frequency overall, but TransLink (really a funding agency of the Government) says no.  So we just blunder along with the worst frequency for any comparable system.

Look at the situation with Park Road, platforms that are unusable.  Platform 3 is risky as well.  Obviously an issue for years nothing is done and now a major problem.  How much better if all 4 platforms properly functional.

Goodna station, an access nightmare.  Anyone care?  No, not really, blunder on ...

Oxley has lovely murals in the subway and along the wall behind bus stop A.  Anything been done to address the water problem in the subway, or the constant battering by overhead coal trains weakening the whole structure constantly?  No, cover up the cracks with a bit of mortar and murals.  And hope the next big drought is on the way.  I make a prediction that within two years major recovery and repair will need to be done at Oxley.  During this time I would not be surprised if the subway is closed for safety reasons.

And we can go on, but what are the priorities?  Uniforms mate, uniforms ...

[ozbob]

And if that doesn't work out, then I say the whole 20 minute cycle doesn't work out.

You said it, more so for 15 minutes ...  how would you implement 15 minute frequency on the network?  I would like to know ...

[ozbob]

What do you say about the members views which aren't supportive of 20 minute cycles largely?

Irrelevant to this discussion.  As I have already said, and I will say it again, it is a thought exercise.  By exploring options in full some new insights can be gained. We can say we have looked at other frequency options in depth, and it is 15 minutes that is best suited to the south-east Queensland network, even if we wait till 2045 .... lol

[ozbob]

We need to press for an upgrade on the CAB line, followed by inner BNH/FG then Manly/Shorncliffe.  Don't you think so?

Indeed, CAB is extremely urgent in my view.  Particularly Lawnton to Petrie track amplification. 

[somebody]

And if that doesn't work out, then I say the whole 20 minute cycle doesn't work out.

You said it, more so for 15 minutes ...  how would you implement 15 minute frequency on the network?  I would like to know ...

Beyond Manly I wouldn't.

4tph Manly-Shorncliffe, with 2tph extending to Cleveland
4tph Ferny Grove-Coopers Plains
2tph Airport-Beenleigh, express Park Rd-Coopers Plains
2tph Airport-Gold Coast
4tph IPS-Petrie, with 2tph extending to Rosewood.  From Darra serve: Oxley, Indro, Toowong, Roma St all to Bowen Hills then Eagle Junction, Northgate and all to Petrie.
4tph RCH-CAB, all to Bowen Hills then Eagle Junction, Northgate and Petrie.

A few Corinda-Doomben via Sth Brisbane trains can slot in somewhere.

But that's more of an aspirational target on current infrastructure.  What I think we need to press for is Caboolture line upgrades.  Personally, I don't see much reason to terminate at Petrie, why not just extend to Caboolture?  But Petrie may be the best we are likely to get.

Particularly Lawnton to Petrie track amplification. 

Urgh.  If we are going to talk about infrastructure, why distract from CRR with something as low a priority as this particular one?  I don't see more than 20tph crossing this bridge without CRR and therefore Petrie and beyond being able to serve more than two CBD corridors.  I'd suggest that given there are no platforms in the two track section here, capacity is higher than 20tph.