New Timetables 2011 June

[Gazza]

A simple backtrack from Roma St would've been fine for Milton passengers.

Counter peak frequency isn't good enough though. I'd hate to wait even just 10 minutes for a 2 minute return trip. Would be so frustrating and would hurt patronage.
The one minute time saving (If that, due to the Roma St junction) isn't worth the burden on passengers. It would be like not stopping GC trains at South Brisbane.

And the thing is, Milton is becoming an extension of the CBD more or less, especially with the neighbourhood plan. Indooroopilly is one thing, but if a station has a lot of stuff like this in walking distance, then that is justification for trains stopping there (That and the fact it's a busy station)

The last thing I'd want to see is a perpetuation of the idea that the CBD is the only place people go.

[ozbob]

Stopping the expresses at Milton makes a lot of sense.  There are heavy pax loads in peak to and from Milton.

[ozbob]

Media release 7 April 2011

SEQ:  New rail timetables, beginning of a new paradigm?

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has said that the implementation for the new train timetables for the Sunshine Coast, Caboolture, Ipswich, Rosewood and Richlands lines from the 6th June is a welcome development (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"This is the first major re-structure of the train timetable for well over ten years.  It is the beginning of a complete rewrite of timetables for the entire network.  Overall there is an increase in capacity, more peak services and some off peak services increases, and simplification of express stopping patterns."

"Some journey times have been increased, but this is offset by the potential of improved reliability and more balanced passenger loading."

"With major timetable changes it is not possible to keep everyone happy.  Some outer suburban stations do have a slight reduction in frequency. Additionally more needs to be done for extending hours of operation of services, more counter peak services, and consideration for an earlier service on the Ipswich line."

"One of the most significant gains is essentially around the clock 15 minute out of peak frequency between Darra and the CBD on the Western line, and through services to and from Richlands and the CBD and connecting stations.  A failure to incorporate a bus-interchange when Indooroopilly Railway station was upgraded a couple of years ago means it is difficult for TransLink to feed Indooroopilly railway station properly with bus and capitalise on the excellent train frequency.  Instead, western bus commuters are left to languish in the congestion chaos that is Coronation Drive and associated roads. Is this integration or failure?"

"It is important that the momentum now established with the first round of timetable changes is maintained and carried on to all lines of the network.  Frequency  and reliability of services are the most important determinants in driving patronage uptake.  TransLink must ensure that bus timetables do actually provide seamless connections to new the rail services.  The new pocket rail timetables for the public would be improved if details of connecting bus services were listed for each station."

Reference:

1. http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/queensland-rail-timetable-changes

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[somebody]

Really thought that the 1652 (4:52pm) to Caboolture could probably be extended to Glasshouse Mtns with the bus for the rest of the way.  Assuming the crewing hours and the paths can be provided (the only issue is potentially crossing a counter peak service on the Beerburrum to Glasshouse single track).

It's not the ideal solution, but it closes the 48 min gap for stations beyond Landsborough (since a connecting railbus would serve all stations Glasshouse to Nambour instead of the proposed service running express Landsborough to Nambour)

Not a bad suggestion about the extension, but why Glass House?  Much more useful to extend to Landsborough, and there are no opposing trains in the timetable at that time.  Maybe TravelTrain/freight cause an issue.

I have mentioned in previous threads the importance of Toowong being a stopping station - some of the rationale being:

1. I understand outside of Milton and Indooroopilly it is has the next highest number of commuters.

Not overall pax, but it may be true for alighting am inbound pax and vice versa.

2. It is the only connection to the Citycat ferry network on the Ipswich line.

Pretty poor connection.  It's like a 500m walk.

3. It has a much more direct and speedy travel time from the Bus stop across the road from the station to UQ (around 25,000 people travel to and from the Uni every day)

Current arrangements at Indooroopilly aren't too bad for the pedestrian, even if I am not a fan of the milk run that is done to achieve it.  The milk run really only made sense when the subway was the only entrance.

4. it is a major retail and business precinct
5. It actually has a bus connection at the train station/shopping centre.

If we could go back in time maybe not spend gazillions of dollars on ancillary support around Gailes train station including the massive pedestrian bridge structure and decommission it as a train station .... then include Toowong as a destination.

TL claim that most pax alighting at Toowong for UQ are coming from inside Darra.  I don't have any reason to argue this point.  Given that there is a UQ campus at Ipswich, this does make sense to me.  Others are perfectly capable of using a bus from Indooroopilly, which isn't really noticeably different in travel time.

Also any word on getting rid of that extra 5 mins it takes to get to ipswich, Im sure there could easily be 10mins of fat cut off.

What were you smoking when you wrote that??? An all stations Ipswich train currently runs approx. 3 minutes late (on average) by the time it gets to Ipswich on the current timetable.

As much as it pains me, I have to concede that the Ipswich trains are usually late, at least inbound at Indooroopilly.  Often, they gain time from there though.  I do think that the fat additions have gone too far though.

Before anyone talks about the deviations around Darra and the raised speed limit, the speed limit from Darra to Wacol straight have been reduced from 100km/h to 80km/h after it was opened. Also, between Darra and Oxley, the 100km/h straight was reduced to 80km/h also. Both these speed reductions add about a minute each to the timetable alone.

What's with the speed limit reductions?  Didn't know about that one!  Although I don't believe they add a full minute.  The 50km/h at Taringa doesn't add a full minute, although it could get close to that for express trains.

A simple backtrack from Roma St would've been fine for Milton passengers.

Counter peak frequency isn't good enough though. I'd hate to wait even just 10 minutes for a 2 minute return trip. Would be so frustrating and would hurt patronage.

Indeed, and it does and still will.  It doesn't need to be clockface, it needs to be turn up and go, which means no gaps of more than 10 minutes, but even a 10 minute frequency would be mediocre here.  7-8 minute is getting better.

Stopping the expresses at Milton makes a lot of sense.  There are heavy pax loads in peak to and from Milton.

There needs to be an Ipswich-Milton connection as a single seat.  Whether this needs to be provided by all trains is an arguable point.

[Fares_Fair]

ozbob quote from media release above:
"One of the most significant gains is essentially around the clock 15 minute out of peak frequency between Darra and the CBD on the Western line, and through services to and from Richlands and the CBD and connecting stations."

Isn't Darra the Ipswich line ? not the western line.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[ozbob]

The Ipswich line forms part of the western line.  The southern line is the Gold Coast line, the northern line Caboolture and onwards.  They are just general terms.

[Fares_Fair]

 

[ozbob]

Feedback received, thanks.

Services from beyond Caboolture should stop at Caboolture, Petrie, Northgate and Eagle Junction only.
Then Bowen Hills and all of the City stations. They should be run at 20 minute intervals.

Trains from Caboolture should have 2 patterns.

1 All stations to Strathpine then express to Northgate, then all stations to Eagle Junction then express to Bowen Hills and all stops in the city.
2 All stations to Bald Hills then express to Northgate, then express to Eagle Junction then express to Bowen Hills and all stops in the city.  

This gives all Caboolture services a very close running time within about 2 minutes.

Track upgrades should be done as follows:

1st Priority Upgrade the South Pine River Bridge Up Road and the middle road so that electrics can run at 80 Km/hr.   (This will partly compensate for the couple of extra stops.)

2nd Priority Build a long 3rd road between Morayfield and Burpengary to provide for more operational options during both morning and afternoon peaks. (A benefit to both Passenger and Freight services.)

[Golliwog]

But at what expense to the ultimate track capacity? I would assume on top of those 3 patterns there would also be Petrie all station services? And I'm sorry, but I'm with Translink/QR on this one, but from Northgate through to the city, all trains MUST have the same stopping pattern. Its a waste to do otherwise. Either all services stop all stations, or the same express pattern.

[#Metro]

Keep it simple people. Upgrades or any sort will take forever to do and thus must be proposed sparingly.

[somebody]

But at what expense to the ultimate track capacity? I would assume on top of those 3 patterns there would also be Petrie all station services? And I'm sorry, but I'm with Translink/QR on this one, but from Northgate through to the city, all trains MUST have the same stopping pattern. Its a waste to do otherwise. Either all services stop all stations, or the same express pattern.

Nit pick: All services on the mains need to stop to the same pattern.

[Golliwog]

But at what expense to the ultimate track capacity? I would assume on top of those 3 patterns there would also be Petrie all station services? And I'm sorry, but I'm with Translink/QR on this one, but from Northgate through to the city, all trains MUST have the same stopping pattern. Its a waste to do otherwise. Either all services stop all stations, or the same express pattern.

Nit pick: All services on the mains need to stop to the same pattern.

True. Maybe should have mentioned that, but seeing as one of the main aims of this rewrite was to get all the trains from Petrie/Caboolture onto the mains I didn't worry about that.

[justanotheruser]

None of the following feedback I provided to Translink regarding the draft 2011 timetable for the Ipswich Line has been acted upon. None of it was mentioned in the 2011 Timetable Community Consultation Feedback & Response Report @ http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/service-updates/queensland-rail-timetable-changes/feedback-report.pdf

Negative Feedback:

1) There is a considerable drop in afternoon services to Redbank & Goodna. The number of Redbank services leaving Central between 4pm & 6pm drops from 15 to 10.

2) 4 minutes of fat has been added to peak & off peak services between Darra & Ipswich.  Travel time in off peak services between Central & Ipswich has increased from 54 minutes to 58 minutes. An extra minute has been added inbound between Wacol & Darra even though the track has been shortened & the speed limit has been increased between Darra station & the Centenary Highway.

3) Poor 12 minute frequency of Ipswich services outbound during the busiest half hour in the afternoon i.e. leaving Brisbane between 5pm & 5.30pm. I believe that the 5.04pm & 5.16pm ex Central will be overcrowded.

4) Absence of express services leaving Central between 3.30pm & 4.16pm. I don't think that it is fair that Translink charges a peak rate fare but provides an off peak service during this period.

5) Absence of express services to Ipswich off peak. The addition of services that start/terminate at Redbank in the future will allow for Ipswich services to run express around the clock, 7 days a week whilst maintaining the 15 minute frequency between Darra & Brisbane.

EDIT: Added "regarding the draft 2011 timetable for the Ipswich Line" to validate point 4.

I also wrote in regarding the seemingly large gaps of 18 minutes at Corinda between the 6:40am and 6:58am service, as well as the large 12 minute gap between the 7:10am and 7:22am service. I envisage that these services may become overcrowded, despite only starting from Richlands station. Hopefully as time passes, Translink will realise that these service gaps are just pathetic, considering the loadings of train services at these times.

Did anyone also notice the bustitution of the 4:52pm Nambour service? This leaves a peak hour "train" service gap of 48 minutes! An outrage!

Sorry to be so negative, but I would've thought that after the consultation process, there would be positives rather than negatives...

So have you heard the reasons given for those gaps? Ozbob posted it in the draft timetable discussion thread.

[Gazza]

Ugh, no logic to the Sunday timetable....
Someone boarding at 8:30 am has to wait an hour till then next train if they miss it, but if they are boarding at 11pm, its a half hourly service.

Are you trying to tell me train services are more popular at 11pm on a Sunday night then they are around 8:30am, when people would be starting outings/going to sports etc.

[justanotheruser]

If I had it my way, all trains would be express Darra to Roma St, maybe a stop at Indooroopilly at the MAXIMUM. Definitely not Milton though. A simple backtrack from Roma St would've been fine for Milton passengers.

while I haven't looked at outbound journeys i reckon the milton passenger would be better off getting of at indro and getting an all stops than backtracking. When I've missed my stop at milton there has always been a long wait to get back.

oh yeah i'd be happy enough to get off at indro and change trains.

[#Metro]

I'd like to see a rational weekend timetable. Same times each day (ok, maybe not sat night when some extra trains are needed for party people). starting at the same time. And earlier!!!

[ozbob]

When I've missed my stop at milton there has always been a long wait to get back.

oh yeah i'd be happy enough to get off at indro and change trains.

yes, counter peak is a shocker.   One of my musings as to why Milton got the nod over say Toowong was this simple fact. Trains often have to stop at Milton to wait for a path at peak, maybe having them stop Milton is just making it practical ...  there are also solid loads to and from Milton at peaks.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'd like to see a rational weekend timetable. Same times each day (ok, maybe not sat night when some extra trains are needed for party people). starting at the same time. And earlier!!!

That can't really be applied to the North Coast line as certain slots are reserved for track maintainence/inspections etc.

[somebody]

So have you heard the reasons given for those gaps? Ozbob posted it in the draft timetable discussion thread.

Do you mean the comments about gaps being left to allow for services to be added later?  Urgh.

[Gazza]

Add them now.

[Golliwog]

But isn't part of the reason why they are doing the timetable upgrades in 2 stages because they don't have as many units available as they wold need for that. And if that's the case, then they also wouldn't have enough to add in those extra services.

[ozbob]

But isn't part of the reason why they are doing the timetable upgrades in 2 stages because they don't have as many units available as they wold need for that. And if that's the case, then they also wouldn't have enough to add in those extra services.

Yes,  the timetable is better structured to allow more easy seamless additions down the track is one message that has been conveyed to me.

As much as folks want frequency everywhere all the time, it is not logistically possible.  It will be a steady progression from here.  I think 20 minutes as a target is a good thing to aim for first.

eg. Twenty minutes trains Ipswich to Caboolture out of peak.  Richlands 20 minutes, then 10 minutes Darra to CBD.  Run Richlands trains through to Petrie.  This gives a ten minute frequency Petrie <--> Darra.  Shorncliffe <-> Cleveland 20 minute.  Ferny Grove <-> Beenleigh 20 minute.

I am keen to see if the Oppostion will ever have a policy on what they would do to increase train frequency?   The LNP has gone into hiding ..

[Gazza]

The 3tph to Richlands + 3tph to Ipswich is basically 6tph.
If we are going to go for that, I'd rather see 4tph to Richlands, with a 2tph full time express to Ipswich.
In terms of average waits for Ipswich passengers, they come out even (since the shorter journey time is offset by the longer wait)

So with both options being equal, I reckon the 4+2 solution is better because it would be cheaper to run, and it sets a long term basis for the extra 2tph to be added to Ipswich make it ulitimatley the service it needs to be, and is in line with expresslink goals.

[Stillwater]

If 20 minute frequency to Ipswich and Caboolture can be achieved in the off-peak, that is what should be aimed for, while keeping 15 minute frequency as an ultimate goal.  We should opt for all the doable things first.

[ozbob]

The 3tph to Richlands + 3tph to Ipswich is basically 6tph.
If we are going to go for that, I'd rather see 4tph to Richlands, with a 2tph full time express to Ipswich.
In terms of average waits for Ipswich passengers, they come out even (since the shorter journey time is offset by the longer wait)

So with both options being equal, I reckon the 4+2 solution is better because it would be cheaper to run, and it sets a long term basis for the extra 2tph to be added to Ipswich make it ulitimatley the service it needs to be, and is in line with expresslink goals.

yes another way of looking at it.

The real pax demand is Ipswich not Richlands though.   Despite the cost much more in terms of pax (and fare box) by ramping up the frequency Caboolture to Ipswich.  20 minutes is only an interim thing.  The worst outcome is what we have, no movement in core frequency improvement other than Darra to CBD essentially.  15 minutes elsewhere is just not going to happen until Kippa-Ring does a Richlands to the northern line.  Nothing wrong with moving to 20 minutes for a couple of years while things are set.

Ferny Grove could easily have a 15 minute frequency  when the final duplication is completed.  Be interesting to see what happens.

[somebody]

The 3tph to Richlands + 3tph to Ipswich is basically 6tph.
If we are going to go for that, I'd rather see 4tph to Richlands, with a 2tph full time express to Ipswich.
In terms of average waits for Ipswich passengers, they come out even (since the shorter journey time is offset by the longer wait)

So with both options being equal, I reckon the 4+2 solution is better because it would be cheaper to run, and it sets a long term basis for the extra 2tph to be added to Ipswich make it ulitimatley the service it needs to be, and is in line with expresslink goals.

+1.

10 minute frequency at Chelmer, while nice, is surplus to requirements and is a policy heading in the wrong direction.  Adding an extra 2tph then may not achieve a tiered service as it would mean a service reduction to some stations.

The points about "not enough rolling stock" are a stinging indictment of the 6 June 2011 QR timetables, as the all stopping Bowen Hills-Northgate wastes signifcant a amount of rolling stock's time.  8tph All to Ferny Grove in peak has the same limitation.  All stoppers to Beenleigh in the peak direction: ditto.

[ozbob]

If 20 minute frequency to Ipswich and Caboolture can be achieved in the off-peak, that is what should be aimed for, while keeping 15 minute frequency as an ultimate goal.  We should opt for all the doable things first.

Exactly, theorise all we like, the reality is waiting up to 20 minutes for the next train is a lot better then 30 minutes or longer ...  just ask the punters at Dinmore or Riverview ...

[ozbob]

10 minute frequency at Chelmer, while nice, is surplus to requirements

Might be generous at Chelmer, but I am sure it would be appreciated and used greatly at Toowong Taringa, Indooroopilly, Corinda, Oxley and Darra, and northside as well ...

Nice to know Chelmer is having a tart up too ..   

[Gazza]

yes another way of looking at it.

The real pax demand is Ipswich not Richlands though.   Despite the cost much more in terms of pax (and fare box) by ramping up the frequency Caboolture to Ipswich.  20 minutes is only an interim thing.  The worst outcome is what we have, no movement in core frequency improvement other than Darra to CBD essentially.  15 minutes elsewhere is just not going to happen until Kippa-Ring does a Richlands to the northern line.  Nothing wrong with moving to 20 minutes for a couple of years while things are set.

Ferny Grove could easily have a 15 minute frequency  when the final duplication is completed.  Be interesting to see what happens.

But I guess with 20 minute frequencies, you have to 'undo it' in 2 years time, when perhaps the new idea of at least designed a timetable that can just be added rather than fully rewritten is the way to go.

I fully hear you on the issue of Ipswich having higher pax loads than Richlands, but it's a network geometry issue more than anything which is driving my (And SEQ2031's) decision. Richlands and Springfield will never have an express service, so instead they just form the end of the all stopper service, and that all stopper service 'naturally' has a higher frequency than an express service serving further out.

Of course, we all want to have 4tph to both destinations now, but realistically, I think it could happen that 4tph for the branch line will happen when Springfield opens, and 4tph full time express for Ipswich will happen when Kippa Ring opens.

[ozbob]

BUT there is something else at play as well, and it is the punter reaction west of Darra, and north of Northgate.  This should not be discounted. They are feeling mightily aggrieved and starting to take it out on the political players. This means that current plans can be easily turned on their head as has often happened in the land of Oz in the past.  There is also the simple fact that the load pressure is really starting to build, particularly on the northern line.  They might be forced to move sooner than later.  What will be interesting, and I mentioned this earlier, what is the opposition going to do?  At the moment they may as well not be there.  Does anyone know who is their transport / public transport spokesperson/s these days? 

[Golliwog]

Campbell Newman?

I've been disappointed with the way things have gone since Newman was appointed as LNP leader. So far there has been campaigning purely on personality, not policy. I went through The Gap and Ashgrove yesterday and the campaigning has really started. There was hardly an intersection that didn't have a volunteer from one political party or another sitting next to it with their signs. Or the Green Campaigner riding his bike with a sign on the trailer.Still yet to hear anything from the LNP other than the water bodies plan and "We'll look into that" for everything else.

[somebody]

10 minute frequency at Chelmer, while nice, is surplus to requirements

Might be generous at Chelmer, but I am sure it would be appreciated and used greatly at Toowong Taringa, Indooroopilly, Corinda, Oxley and Darra, and northside as well ...

Nice to know Chelmer is having a tart up too ..   

Toowong and Indooroopilly I would agree with, not so sure about Taringa.  I'd support off peak expresses serving Toowong and Indro.  In fact, it may not be required to serve Milton off peak.

If you agree that it is over the top at Chelmer, should the Ipswich trains not serve it?  Or are you saying you are opposed to a tiered service?

[ozbob]

Or are you saying you are opposed to a tiered service?

No big fan of tiered services.  Can recall going home from school on one South Yarra <-> Caulfield anti-peak.  We would wait to get on the express ..

To have tiered services there has to be the frequency to support it.  SEQ just doesn't have it at the moment at 30 minute core frequency.  Lets just say if trains came out of Richlands every 20 minutes they would be all stoppers to Petrie.  Trains from Caboolture <-> Ipswich every 20 minutes.  I would suggest Caboolture all stations to Petrie, then express Northgate, express to CBD.  Ipswich leg, CBD, Milton, Indroo, Darra (if only to be consistent) then all stations.  All trains run that peak and off peak on that sector.  This is the minimum that I think would work.  Ok some stations would drop from 15 to 20 minutes but could be done.  Two trains per hour out of Ipswich tiered is not going to get the punters support, three might, 4 certainly will.  At peak you just run trains out at 10 minute intervals instead of 20.  This would then give a balanced counter peak as well.

[somebody]

But express Northgate-Petrie off peak is the tiered service of tiered services!!  Even I think that's a bit unreasonable at the moment.

Why tiered CAB but not IPS?

[ozbob]

Why tiered CAB but not IPS?

huh?  There has be a service between Darra and Ipswich,  it is running express to CBD <-> Darra  It is tiered as far as practicable.

It is just a thought exercise. With the current state of play, and the need to run other services eg. coal that is the best that would be broadly achievable I would suggest.  To think that the next improvement in frequency west of Darra is dependent on the completion of MBRL or CRR is not going to stick politically.   I reckon 20 minutes could be done tomorrow if there was the committment.  And that would be a huge improvement.

[somebody]

Thought we were talking about off peak?  Still all stations off peak IPS.

Did you just mean peak time CAB trains run Bowen Hills, EJ, N, Petrie all to CAB.  Fair enough then.

There needs to be a full time express service to IPS, not just at peaks.

[Stillwater]

As to just who is the spokesperson/spokespersons for transport and public transport ATM, ask an LNP pollie a transport question these days and they duck for cover.  You are advised that they will get back to you, but they don't.  They dare not!  There is no policy, Campbell has declared all policies void.  That's convenient in circumstances where the party never had a policy in the first place.  He has declared all shadow portfoilio positions vacant.  Fiona Simpson may as well be Sadie the Cleaning Lady and ... er... whatsername Davis?  Phttt!

It would appear the the best way to get a transport policy out of the LNP these days is to invite Cando to your electorate.  He's just been up in Townsville saying that Labor 'had not done enough for road and rail' there, but refused to be drawn into specifics.  What the?

If Queenslanders are going to a state election on the basis of 'trust us and elect Campbell' (even though is the member for only one electorate - Ashgrove), that's no better than Labor's 'it will all be fixed by 2031' offering.  

[ozbob]

Peak and off peak, same pattern express CBD <-> Darra then all stations Ipswich ( I would suggest the same stations as the peak with the possible exception of Milton ).  All trains to and from Ipswich around the clock run express between Darra and CBD, but only if there is the frequency out of Richlands to allow (3 tph)  and the core frequency between Darra and Ipswich is at least 3 per hour.  Anything less won't work very well.

[Gazza]

Two trains per hour out of Ipswich tiered is not going to get the punters support, three might, 4 certainly will.

I think 2tph express would get some support, because at least it's an improvement on what they have now.....The Gold Coast has a full time express service at 2tph.

[ozbob]

I am not so sure they would see it that way.  Many more pax travel to intermediate stations on the Ipswich line than on the Gold Coast services, and it is really a different sort of service.  You don't have the suburban service (Beenleigh) overlayed by a true express long haul (Gold Coast) in the same way on the Ipswich line. If there is a frequency win to balance the need to transfer at Darra then probably will stick.  To just change the two per hour to express and offer no other benefit for the many who actually use the intermediate stations will not be popular at all.  I doubt if it would be implemented.  Go to three per hour and might just work.