New Timetables 2011 June

[ozbob]

My understanding is that the timetables have been printed and are being folded now.  It's a bit of a complex job when you see some timetables and how they fold up.

[ozbob]

Have you had a look at the Melbourne site?  

Easy to do but very functional .... TransLink is just not with it ..

Just another group of pages under another domain.   I could put something together myself in day ...

The changes in Melbourne were more significant than anything in QLD since electrification and anything in Sydney since the Eastern Suburbs Railway.  It involved a number of people needing to change trains to get to their destination.

Maybe so, all the easier for a decent effort to highlight the changes ... and actually explain why they are doing what they are doing ...  and forms useful templates for subsequent changes. It is what an authority that is truly customer focussed would do.  All they have is some vague committment to go out about in May.  Helping hands handing out new timetables I suppose ...

They could head off a lot of grief coming their way if they were smart and really got out there and sold the changes.  These days, using the tools available is the way forward.  Other jurisdictions can do it.

[Stillwater]

I am betting that when you ask one of the 'helping hands' (furiously handing out timetables) any of the detail, you will get a response along these lines: 'Dunno dude, I'm just a uni student hired for the day, maybe the stationmaster can help you.  Oh, the office is closed, well I suppose you can ring that number there, on the back.  Cheers mate!'

And was anyone consulted about what people might want included in the timetables, the readable typeface etc?

[ozbob]

.... And was anyone consulted about what people might want included in the timetables, the readable typeface etc?

Your suggestion about the connecting buses hasn't appeared on what has been available so far. 

[ozbob]

I have a Ferny Grove timetable year 2000, they were little booklets then.  All sorts of useful information, probably an overkill these days ... but the map (folded) rear cover was useful

-->

[Stillwater]

That's the sort of stuff that should be in every timetable - where there is station parking, bus interchanges, connections etc.  We are selling a transit NETWORK -- not just information about a string of stations (line by line) isolated from the rest of the network. 

[david]

I am betting that when you ask one of the 'helping hands' (furiously handing out timetables) any of the detail, you will get a response along these lines: 'Dunno dude, I'm just a uni student hired for the day, maybe the stationmaster can help you.  Oh, the office is closed, well I suppose you can ring that number there, on the back.  Cheers mate!'

That's a little harsh. I've had very positive experiences with those Translink people in their green shirts. Some of them are very knowledgeable! I suppose that's life for you though - some are good and some are bad. And from what I've heard, the helping hands are actually Translink employees and not just any random they've plucked off the street/recruited from an agency.

[#Metro]

I think people do not read timetables. How many people on the train or bus can produce a timetable? Very few... In fact, I think printed timetables should be abolished altogether. They are a horrible waste of paper and money.... money that can be better spent on frequency. Timetables should come off the TL website as pdfs or HTML.

I think information would be better to go up at stations. Large format busway style posters ON THE PLATFORMS... they do it for busways... why not do it for train stations?

[O_128]

Id like to see the money invested in the iphone/android app to track buses and google map integration, both which were due last year

[Gazza]

I think information would be better to go up at stations. Large format busway style posters ON THE PLATFORMS... they do it for busways... why not do it for train stations?

They do have timetables in backlit glass panels on train platforms though...

[SurfRail]

money that can be better spent on frequency.

Very doubtful.  What is their printing budget?

[Stillwater]

Relatively small, I would have thought -- less than the running costs, wages etc for 2 mon-fri services to Nambour and return.

[ozbob]

Printed timetables are in fact very useful and are used by large number of commuters.  The stocks at the major stations are replenished regularly I note.

Bus route spider maps would be very useful, helps to work out what routes are going where.

eg TfL spider maps --> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaround/maps/buses/busdiagrams.asp?borough=MER

[somebody]

I think printed timetables should be abolished altogether.

I don't.  Internet access isn't universal, and especially the aged and infirm may have trouble with this.  I for one do not carry internet access wherever I go.

[Zoiks]

For interests sake, I just ran some calcs on how much time is lost for every stop a train stops at at varying peak speeds.
Assumptions:
IMU/SMU260
90% Peak Speed
90% Peak Acceleration
90% Peak Deceleration

Each Line is for a peak speed 10km/h less then the one before it.
Starting at 160km/h
97.20
93.93
90.67
87.41
84.15
80.88
77.62
74.36
71.10
67.84
64.57
All numbers are in seconds

[somebody]

For interests sake, I just ran some calcs on how much time is lost for every stop a train stops at at varying peak speeds.
Assumptions:
IMU/SMU260
90% Peak Speed
90% Peak Acceleration
90% Peak Deceleration

Each Line is for a peak speed 10km/h less then the one before it.
Starting at 160km/h
97.20
93.93
90.67
87.41
84.15
80.88
77.62
74.36
71.10
67.84
64.57
All numbers are in seconds

How'd you model that?  My maths isn't up to developing a distance vs time function for a fixed amount of power.

I assume those numbers are exclusive of dwell time and the last one has 64s for 50km/h top speed, is that right??

[Zoiks]

Ok so basically I know the top acceleration and deceleration rates. I assumed that the trains run at 90% of their top speed and change of speed rates. Also assumed that rates are linear.

Calculated how long it would take them.to stop and get back up to speed. Figured out the distance they covered while doing that. Then compared that to the distance covered if they haven't stopped.

Ill post my spreadsheet if your interested.

It wont be perfect but gives us something to work with.

The last number would be for (.9*60km/h) and I'm pretty sure those numbers were for a 45 second dwell.

Can you suggest different numbers to stick in?

[somebody]

So, 90% of maximum tractive effort applies right up to 160km/h?  The actual figures would be significantly worse than the ones you suggest then at the higher speeds.  Although 45s dwell is a lot at a station like Elimbah.

[Zoiks]

Without a lot more detail its nigh on impossible to use anything other then a linear acceleration rate.

The 45 second dwell is just an example.

Thus the whole resonance I put it in a spreadsheet so I can play with the figures

Feel free to give me different numbers to plug in

[somebody]

Hence I was very surprised by your post of these timings.  How'd you find the maximum tractive effort of an IMU160/SMU260?

I guess one possibility may be to calculate the acceleration in 10km/h increments.  That would get you very close to the real figure.

[Zoiks]

Hence I was very surprised by your post of these timings.  How'd you find the maximum tractive effort of an IMU160/SMU260?

I guess one possibility may be to calculate the acceleration in 10km/h increments.  That would get you very close to the real figure.

I found them on a DownerEDI spec sheet when I was doing my final year project.

How would I "calculate the acceleration in 10km/h increments" if I dont have an acceleration curve? The only numbers I have are 0.83m/s/s + 1.1m/s/s

[somebody]

Hence I was very surprised by your post of these timings.  How'd you find the maximum tractive effort of an IMU160/SMU260?

I guess one possibility may be to calculate the acceleration in 10km/h increments.  That would get you very close to the real figure.

I found them on a DownerEDI spec sheet when I was doing my final year project.

How would I "calculate the acceleration in 10km/h increments" if I dont have an acceleration curve? The only numbers I have are 0.83m/s/s + 1.1m/s/s

Power versus weight.  You have to estimate the weight of the occupants also for that one though.

acceleration (m/s^2) = Power (kW) / mass (tonnes) / velocity (m/s)

[Zoiks]

alright... ill work on that later

[HappyTrainGuy]

Passenger weight is approx 65-70t for a fully loaded 6 car train iirc.

[ozbob]

750 x 70 kg = 52.5 tonnes   900 x 70 kg = 63 tonnes

So 65 - 70 t is spot on ...

[Zoiks]

Alright...
So I have redone everything.
Assumptions
464 passengers per 3 car SMU260 @75kg/passenger
Rates of change + Top speeds are all 90% of values
30 second dwell

So net time lost coming to a stop, waiting then getting back up to speed is as follows for each top speed in seconds

130 - 78.38
120 - 73.55
110 - 68.98
100 - 64.65
90 - 60.57
80 - 56.71
70 - 53.07
60 - 49.62
50 - 46.31
40 - 43.04
30 - 39.78
20 - 36.52
10 - 33.26

[justanotheruser]

Have you had a look at the Melbourne site?  

Easy to do but very functional .... TransLink is just not with it ..

Just another group of pages under another domain.   I could put something together myself in day ...

Yes but I still see absolutely no benefit to having a completely different website.  Also the melbourne site is accessed by clicking on a section of the home page for the metro system. It is still part of the metro website just a different page. What you suggested was different hence the reason for my question.

[justanotheruser]

I think people do not read timetables. How many people on the train or bus can produce a timetable? Very few... In fact, I think printed timetables should be abolished altogether. They are a horrible waste of paper and money.... money that can be better spent on frequency. Timetables should come off the TL website as pdfs or HTML.

I think information would be better to go up at stations. Large format busway style posters ON THE PLATFORMS... they do it for busways... why not do it for train stations?

Sure you guarentee to pay for everyones internet access and printing costs and no problem.  There are still plenty of people who don't have internet at home. I work in disability services and the only clients with internet at home are the ones who live with their parents. The ones who catch PT can produce timetables.  I can't produce a timetable if you asked me on a train because I don't need to carry one. I have it at home. I lend it to friends and family who visit. I work out what bus/train I will catch then leave home. When coming home I get the first available service and having a timetable on me won't make it arrive any sooner so whats the point.

I've seen the info at busways and it can be very difficult to understand. I had a tourist ask me for assistance and they told me where they were going and I couldn't make sense of the info. Perhaps they have changed it to a more user friendly format.

[ozbob]

This is what I said ..

"Metro trains Melbourne recently had major timetable changes and they set up a dedicated web site to explain fully the impacts for their passengers (2). This is an excellent example of a proper change management tool for public transport.

It is under a different domain. http://destinationbetter.metrotrains.com.au/  it is therefore a dedicated web site (for change).

Who said anything about a completely different web site?  Honestly, you do need to slow down a little.  It seems you like to take any post on this board by any member and have a go at it. It becomes tiresome.

The metro change site is an excellent example of what a proactive change process is.  TransLink do need to lift their game IMHO.

[HappyTrainGuy]

ThatS known as a sub domain that links to another part of the website where as a new domain is another address.

[Zoiks]

Meh stop pandering on the technicalities.
Whether its a subdomain or a new website it doesnt matter. Hell, a new domain is what $25 a year?

Anyway, I agree with bob. It wouldnt be that hard for them to make a simple page that lets you choose your station, it gives you a comparison of old timetable and new timetable some simple statistics (x number of new services etc) and some reasoning to the changes.

[ozbob]

ThatS known as a sub domain that links to another part of the website where as a new domain is another address.

Yes, technically it is.  However the user sees it as a separate site.

Explore this site with Michael and Mere and learn all you need to know about the changes to ensure you are well-informed for travelling with Metro.

http://destinationbetter.metrotrains.com.au/

But we are missing the point, what an excellent example of how change should be handled.  Honestly, the crap that we put up with here in Queensland is rather sad ..

[Arnz]

In yet another display of complete INCOMPETENCE from TransLink, the 605/615s does NOT CONNECT with the trains originating to/from Gympie North (City-bound direction).  Also does not connect with the 5:20pm ex-Central weekday peak departure either.

Yet another stuff-up from TransLink   .  

If there is a bus shortage up here, I'm sure Sunbus' sister company Surfside (both are owned by the same parent company) may had some spare units to transfer.

http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/services-and-timetables/timetables/110606-605,615.pdf

[Stillwater]

Sadly, I think we will see a bit more of this disconnect up the Sunny Coast.  Not all the new timetable changes have been revealed yet, unless new information has come to light in recent days.

[ozbob]

A constant criticism from the Sunshine Coast generally has been failing bus - rail connections.  Some of it is due to problems with maintaining timetables amongst the malestrom of level crossing incidents, bridge strikes, power failures, signal failures, technical faults, ill passengers and so forth,  but if the basic design doesn't connect then not much hope for the bigger picture ...

[somebody]

You've pricked up my interest there, Zoiks.

I don't have a spreadsheet on this computer, but when I get in to work, I'll see if I can verify your numbers.  I'm very surprised by the small delay at the higher speeds.  The non-dwell delay should be rising nearer to the square of the speed, but there are other factors at work I guess, such as tractive effort limited acceleration and time to cover the distance at full speed.

In yet another display of complete INCOMPETENCE from TransLink, the 605/615s does NOT CONNECT with the trains originating to/from Gympie North (City-bound direction).  Also does not connect with the 5:20pm ex-Central weekday peak departure either.

Yet another stuff-up from TransLink   .  

If there is a bus shortage up here, I'm sure Sunbus' sister company Surfside (both are owned by the same parent company) may had some spare units to transfer.

Have you read comments by SurfRail about the availability of buses on the Gold Coast?  I think that one is very unlikely.

In yet another display of complete INCOMPETENCE from TransLink, the 605/615s does NOT CONNECT with the trains originating to/from Gympie North (City-bound direction).  Also does not connect with the 5:20pm ex-Central weekday peak departure either.

Yet another stuff-up from TransLink   .  

You are complaining about the lack of Gympie-Maroochydore connections here, is that right?  Why aren't you using the 602/603/610 services from Nambour?

A constant criticism from the Sunshine Coast generally has been failing bus - rail connections.  Some of it is due to problems with maintaining timetables amongst the malestrom of level crossing incidents, bridge strikes, power failures, signal failures, technical faults, ill passengers and so forth,  but if the basic design doesn't connect then not much hope for the bigger picture ...

The outbound buses can wait for delayed trains, but that doesn't work for heading inbound!

[SurfRail]

Have you read comments by SurfRail about the availability of buses on the Gold Coast?  I think that one is very unlikely.

There is plenty of old stuff available still, but using second-hand 1980s models like Leyland Tigers is hardly the image you would want to be projecting for a modern, accessible, integrated transport system.

Government just needs to place a big order a manufacturer to ensure continuity of supply to meet these new commitments, especially with competing large orders from Transport NSW taking capacity at all the major bus building facilities in SEQ.

[Arnz]

You are complaining about the lack of Gympie-Maroochydore connections here, is that right?  Why aren't you using the 602/603/610 services from Nambour?

No.  Hence why I put (City-Bound) trains to and from Gympie.  Try to understand what I'm saying, please.

Buses don't connect to (most) of the Gympie (to/from City) trains.  There is no buses for the 5:20pm (6:48pm Landsborough/7:15pm Nambour arrival) outbound either.  

Edit:  No buses feeding the 1:43pm (Nambour)/2:11pm (Landsborough) weekday departures to the City either.  Plenty of problems with the upcoming bus feeders updates.

A constant criticism from the Sunshine Coast generally has been failing bus - rail connections.  Some of it is due to problems with maintaining timetables amongst the malestrom of level crossing incidents, bridge strikes, power failures, signal failures, technical faults, ill passengers and so forth,  but if the basic design doesn't connect then not much hope for the bigger picture ...

The outbound buses can wait for delayed trains, but that doesn't work for heading inbound!

Actually, it does.   You actually have to notify the driver if the bus is running slightly late OR if the bus is blatantly late, most drivers notify anyone if anybody is catching the train.  Many routes heading to the Train Stations are "former" pre-TransLink (integrated TrainLinks) after all.

Update:  There is a 631 leaving Nambour at 7:20pm weekdays.  The late evening trains, however, loses (most) if not all of their connections.

[somebody]

Please explain to me why this is a problem then?  Because the Gympie trains serve 7 less stops?

I was wondering if the buses miss the Gympie trains because the ICEs have less seats, but that cannot be true as the AM peak train from Gympie is connected to by both of the routes.

What is a good question IMO is why these buses can't meet every train at Lansborough?

[Arnz]

Please explain to me why this is a problem then?  Because the Gympie trains serve 7 less stops?

Various 20min-1hr gaps waiting for buses if you get on a train that doesn't have a bus connection (or is about to lose it).

I was wondering if the buses miss the Gympie trains because the ICEs have less seats, but that cannot be true as the AM peak train from Gympie is connected to by both of the routes.

What is a good question IMO is why these buses can't meet every train at Lansborough?

Buses meet the current Gympie North afternoon peak service.  They will however be "removed", leaving a gap before the next bus.

As for the last question, beats me.  Bus shortage could be one, but the sister companies don't exactly has any low-floors available, and the other being incompetency (since some trains that has bus feeders are about to lose it (namely the Gympie afternoon runs, and some of the evening Nambour runs), despite patronage being at least respectable on many of them (not full buses, but not empty either).

Edit:  While I might understand if it's a bus shortage, I do suspect it's the later (incompetency), which in part may lead back to the former (bus shortage).