New Timetables 2011 June

[justanotheruser]

And if that doesn't work out, then I say the whole 20 minute cycle doesn't work out.

You said it, more so for 15 minutes ...  how would you implement 15 minute frequency on the network?  I would like to know ...

Beyond Manly I wouldn't.

4tph Manly-Shorncliffe, with 2tph extending to Cleveland
4tph Ferny Grove-Coopers Plains
2tph Airport-Beenleigh, express Park Rd-Coopers Plains
2tph Airport-Gold Coast
4tph IPS-Petrie, with 2tph extending to Rosewood.  From Darra serve: Oxley, Indro, Toowong, Roma St all to Bowen Hills then Eagle Junction, Northgate and all to Petrie.
4tph RCH-CAB, all to Bowen Hills then Eagle Junction, Northgate and Petrie.

A few Corinda-Doomben via Sth Brisbane trains can slot in somewhere.

But that's more of an aspirational target on current infrastructure.  What I think we need to press for is Caboolture line upgrades.  Personally, I don't see much reason to terminate at Petrie, why not just extend to Caboolture?  But Petrie may be the best we are likely to get.

Particularly Lawnton to Petrie track amplification. 

Urgh.  If we are going to talk about infrastructure, why distract from CRR with something as low a priority as this particular one?  I don't see more than 20tph crossing this bridge without CRR and therefore Petrie and beyond being able to serve more than two CBD corridors.  I'd suggest that given there are no platforms in the two track section here, capacity is higher than 20tph.

If you have that stopping pattern beyond darra you may as well just run them all stops. Current express from milton (16:34) to darra saves stuff all time its just more comfortable. Those extra stops basically eliminates that time saved so make it all stops.

[justanotheruser]

Freight paths and Traveltrain paths don't like to be played around with alot due to the follow on effect.

Then move the CityTrain times, if that is easier.  People may whinge, but they need to get over it.

Whinge? isn't that what we do?  Isn't that what quiet carriages were all about??? Shouldn't people just get over it and stop complaining about frequency???  I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss it.

[somebody]

Ah, I see what you have done, yes that is workable but tight.

For now, I'd like to see a minimum fuss extension of most Cleveland services to/from Doomben, giving the line equivalent service to the rest of the network.

I suppose another option to add margin would be to duplicate from the east end of Hendra to Doomben.  Still only requires platform work at Ascot.

If you have that stopping pattern beyond darra you may as well just run them all stops. Current express from milton (16:34) to darra saves stuff all time its just more comfortable. Those extra stops basically eliminates that time saved so make it all stops.

Please don't blame express trains for QR's inability to write a reasonable timetable.  I will allow that the recent IPS-CAB is an improvement on present.  But I am not sure what service you are referring to.  There is no 16:34 service from Milton, let alone an express one.

Whinge? isn't that what we do? 

Do you mean RailBoT?  We try to raise legitimate issues, not ones like "If the timetable changes, my trains will come at different times!".

[david]

If you have that stopping pattern beyond darra you may as well just run them all stops. Current express from milton (16:34) to darra saves stuff all time its just more comfortable. Those extra stops basically eliminates that time saved so make it all stops.

Please don't blame express trains for QR's inability to write a reasonable timetable.  I will allow that the recent IPS-CAB is an improvement on present.  But I am not sure what service you are referring to.  There is no 16:34 service from Milton, let alone an express one.

On the current timetable (not the new and improved timetable) there is one. But that service has more fat than that new KFC burger 

Milton to Darra express normally takes around 12 to 13 minutes, without fat added.

[justanotheruser]

Doomben might be inner city but there have been a few services during the day where I've been the only person in one carriage from Hendra to Doomben. Then still the only person in the carriage until it got back to Eagle Junction. Until passenger levels increase or until QR can justify to spend the hundreds of millions of dollars upgrading every station and purchasing extra trains for the line, its going to remain a hourly service.

That is exactly what I expect when you provide an hourly service.  I wouldn't use it either, at that frequency.

This is a vicious cycle of reduced demand.  Nobody uses the service, because it is an unattractive service.

If you want to kill off any suburban public transport service, run it hourly or peak hours only.  You will get the same result as the Doomben line.

The Doomben line either needs to be fixed and made frequent, or closed.  The current situation does nobody any good.  Hourly frequency suppresses demand, as does half hourly to a lesser extent.

I had no problem using it in the past.  once again lets compare it to ipswich buses which we were all happy to jump up and down about. Hourly frequency and unreliable (with around 100 staff having left westside since september last year its no wonder) yet people still used it and RBOT quite happily backed numbers produced by passengers. So obviously people are happy to use hourly frequency. You sound just like that guy on the train standing half a metre away from two people who then said he would never catch a train again because you were packed in like sardines. Hope he never goes overseas to some other countries with crowded high frequency trains!

The new timetable is getting quite a blister on the Queensland Times website blogs.

I don't understand their problem with the Rosewood service.
The current timetable has trains leaving Ipswich at 4:38pm, 5:30pm, 5:51pm, 6:14pm, 6:30pm, 7:18pm, 8:08pm
The new timetable has: 4:35pm, 5:07pm, 5:35pm, 6:07pm, 6:35pm, 6:57pm, 7:35pm, 8:35pm.

Seems like an upgrade to me.  Although a 30 minute service in peak is mediocre at best.

Working on a peak hour of 4pm to 6:30pm (departure from city) as this is more realistic for when the majority of people will travel there is only an increase of one train.  based on comments people have made here by many then the general consensus on RBOT is this is nothing and not worth considering.  Even with the times you have there which is extended a bit further there is only a increase of one train per hour. We know from the reaction in ipswich regarding buses that is not acceptable.

[ozbob]

LOL

So obviously people are happy to use hourly frequency.

When there is no other real alternative that is all you have.  Doomben has a much more regular service, albeit a lot of them bus.

The withdrawal of bus in Ipswich was flawed, as evidenced by recent actions to re-instate.  Well done the folks who actually did the pax counts.  TransLink's data was unreliable ..

[justanotheruser]

However the polls gave several options which would change things. Especially on one of them (shorncliffe I think) the majority said 15 minutes and 30 minutes so 20 minutes would be a good compromise.   Of course 15 minute frequency is more attractive however it is very common strategy to use what is sometimes called salami tactics. Get a bit here and a bit there and slowly work to your final goal. That may be the way to go. Possibly not.

Umm, the first two polls asked the question: what should we lobby for?

So, incorrect.

yes but you are still thinking that going for smaller goals means ignoring the bigger goals. Ever heard the saying about winning the war not just the battle. To do that work out some tactics. As I said common tactics are to go for smaller goals that don't seem much and then a little bit more (20 minute frequency in this case) untill you achieve your primary objective (15minute frequency in this case).  It has proven a succesful tactic time and time again.  Also what you have missed in my response is how many options there are. In the poll you can only vote for one option however that means it may not truly reflect the real desires. You have just looked at which one has the most votes. there is a problem with that which is why we have preferential voting at government elections. In the first poll 6 voted for the most popular but 8 voted against it. In the second poll 4 voted for 4tph while 7 people voted against it including 4 people who said leave it as is! So even if we use your method of reading the results on that one do we lobby to leave it as is or for 4tph? Gotta look at other votes to figure that out.  in the third poll it is the only one where the most popular option had more votes for it than against but only just with a 8-7 majority. So my point is valid in that you can't just assume because one option gets the most votes it will upset the least number of people. The third poll is the only one where that statement would be true but would split the community virtually down the middle.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Station buildings on the unused platform at Ascot are unsafe so the whole platform is out of order.

So, does that make it merely a demolition job?  There doesn't need to be a building on the platform, but I guess a go card reader would be required.

I think theres some herritage thing thats related to it or to the station.

[justanotheruser]

If you have that stopping pattern beyond darra you may as well just run them all stops. Current express from milton (16:34) to darra saves stuff all time its just more comfortable. Those extra stops basically eliminates that time saved so make it all stops.

Please don't blame express trains for QR's inability to write a reasonable timetable.  I will allow that the recent IPS-CAB is an improvement on present.  But I am not sure what service you are referring to.  There is no 16:34 service from Milton, let alone an express one.

What you think a train that skips 9 stations is not an express? interesting. perhaps you could ask those on the train who don't realise it is an express and end up doing alot of backtracking!
If there is no such train then am I and plenty of others riding on an imaginary train two days a week?  I think I've worked out why you can't tell there is an express. In translink journey planner type milton railway station and destination (anywhere darra or beyond). If you just type the suburb name then it assumes you need to walk almost 400metres to the station coming up with a departure time of 16:28.

[ozbob]

Yes, the 4.28pm Ipswich service out of Central is express Milton to Darra.  It often has a bad case of path hunger ...

Occasionally it seems to fly along ..

[somebody]

If there is no such train then am I and plenty of others riding on an imaginary train two days a week?  

Sorry, must be looking at an old timetable.  It is present in the journey planner.  But as david says, there is far too much fat in that service, and also the 17:24 ex-Roma St express to Darra.

yes but you are still thinking that going for smaller goals means ignoring the bigger goals. Ever heard the saying about winning the war not just the battle.

You are ignoring my point that it wasn't supported.  Anyone could have posted anything that they liked supporting 20 minute frequency, but no one did.

In the past, a few have supported 20 minute frequency for Shorncliffe, but it doesn't really work out in practice - issues come up with where the train goes on the other side of the CBD.  You can't do 20 minute frequency Gold Coast or Cleveland, which prevents it for Beenleigh.  If you disagree, mock up a timetable which supports it.  Things may change post-CRR, but we would hope for a 15 minute frequency by then.

[justanotheruser]

LOL

So obviously people are happy to use hourly frequency.

When there is no other real alternative that is all you have.  Doomben has a much more regular service, albeit a lot of them bus.

The withdrawal of bus in Ipswich was flawed, as evidenced by recent actions to re-instate.  Well done the folks who actually did the pax counts.  TransLink's data was unreliable ..

and what makes the passengers count reliable. Several bus drivers have commented to me that people didn't tend to use the service much. Bus drivers surely have a vested interest to keep the buses going so why would they say that if it was false?

[ozbob]

A person actually riding every service for a week and physically counting is much more accurate than flawed ticketing data, particularly based on go card when the readers were constantly unreliable.  TransLink and Government have not challenged the passenger's data either, that says something.

I can point to a number of bus routes were patronage at times is light as well.  A particular driver doesn't do every service on a run.  In any case the bus services are coming back, so I am personally delighted.  

[Golliwog]

As well, you can get drivers missusing the count button and inflating figures.

[#Metro]

Just a small request- could we keep doomben line discussions to the doomen line threads... it makes it easier to look up info for research/releases.

[somebody]

Just a small request- could we keep doomben line discussions to the doomen line threads... it makes it easier to look up info for research/releases.

Take that under advisement, but the two are intertwined.  If Doomben gets a 15 minute service, combined with another line (Shorncliffe or Airport) would allow Caboolture trains to skip Albion & Wooloowin.

[somebody]

Or are you saying you are opposed to a tiered service?

No big fan of tiered services.  Can recall going home from school on one South Yarra <-> Caulfield anti-peak.  We would wait to get on the express ..

Doesn't that indicate that it provides a service which is liked by pax?

[ozbob]

The shining frequency light on the network, Saturday morning platform 4 Darra PID ...

(Question:  Should PIDs now be CIDs?    )



Photograph R Dow 30 April 2011

[#Metro]

I can't believe it. BASIC 15 minute frequency.

Stopping only as far as Bowen Hills seems like a waste. Why not extend them all to Petrie/Caboolture or maybe even just as far as Northgate...

[ozbob]

Yes, and it is driving patronage too.  There was about 60 pax who got on the 10.07am service at Darra!

It does seem a waste not running those Richland starters through to Petrie ...

[#Metro]

Good. Next step, hook up bus system...

[#Metro]

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5879

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

9th May 2011

Another basic lesson for you

Greetings,

Big day in Melbourne today with new rail timetables. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4072.msg54899#msg54899

Great to see some of the Hitachi sets returning to service (nearly 40 years old some of them).  In Brisbane, some of the EMUs are well into their thirties.  It just goes to show that investment in rail is for the long term.  Pity we lost the plot in the 1960s until now hey?  The road transport system is about to implode ...

The big day for the Sunshine Coast, Caboolture, Ipswich, Rosewood and Richlands lines approaches on 6th June 2011.

Bit of grief around in Melbourne because Metro (and the Government) has not fully explained the rationale of the timetable changes.  Same deal here in south-east Queensland.
There needs to be better communication to the public on why the new timetables are how they are.  Not explaining why journey times have increased is a bit silly. Not fully explaining why the express patterns are the way they are is also equally dumb.  It is not rocket science, it is 'train-science 101'.

We look forward to 6th June 2011!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[somebody]

Sent to all outlets:

9th May 2011

Another basic lesson for you

Greetings,

Big day in Melbourne today with new rail timetables. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4072.msg54899#msg54899

Great to see some of the Hitachi sets returning to service (nearly 40 years old some of them).  In Brisbane, some of the EMUs are well into their thirties.  It just goes to show that investment in rail is for the long term.  Pity we lost the plot in the 1960s until now hey?  The road transport system is about to implode ...

The big day for the Sunshine Coast, Caboolture, Ipswich, Rosewood and Richlands lines approaches on 6th June 2011.

Bit of grief around in Melbourne because Metro (and the Government) has not fully explained the rationale of the timetable changes.  Same deal here in south-east Queensland.
There needs to be better communication to the public on why the new timetables are how they are.  Not explaining why journey times have increased is a bit silly. Not fully explaining why the express patterns are the way they are is also equally dumb.  It is not rocket science, it is 'train-science 101'.

We look forward to 6th June 2011!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

Also, it takes a new branch in SEQ to add around 300 new weekly services.  They are adding over 600 services on no new infrastructure aren't they?

[#Metro]

Yes, they are doing it on NO NEW INFRASTRUCTURE.
FIX THE FREQUENCY!!!

You don't need extensions to "improve" public transport. Indeed many extensions I am not supportive of because the money spent on pouring concrete @ $100 million/km could be spent providing more services on current infrastructure.

We need to get rid of single track though, and get sunshine coast line fixed up.

[ozbob]

Now, now, one thing at a time ... 

[ozbob]

Richlands lead frequency boost is the first in over 14 years or so ..

This is what is happening down south:

Metro (link)

New Metro timetable – effective Sunday 8 May

Download a copy of the new timetable from here or pick one up from any premium station.

The major additions to services include an extra:

- 37 new services each weekday on the Werribee line, including eight new peak services each weekday;

- 25 new services each weekday on the Belgrave/Lilydale line, including two new morning peak services each weekday;

- 18 new services each weekday on the Sandringham line, including seven new peak services each weekday;

- 17 new services each weekday on the Cranbourne/Pakenham line;

- 15 new services each weekday on the Frankston line; and

- four new services each weekday on the Glen Waverley line, including one morning peak service.



Other key changes include:

- All Alamein line and all Belgrave/Lilydale line services starting from Blackburn to the city before midday (34 in total) will now run through the City Loop.

- All morning services on the Glen Waverley line (34 in total) will run direct to Flinders Street, at a frequency of seven to eight minutes. A cross-platform change at Richmond will enable a direct change for City Loop station customers, with connecting Loop services running every one to three minutes throughout the morning peak.

- A regular 11 minute service will operate from Werribee during the morning peak, with most services to operate express between Laverton and Newport.

- Weekday service frequency between 9am and 4:30pm for Aircraft, Hoppers Crossing and Werribee stations reduces from 10 minutes to 20 minutes however, the average service frequency between Newport and Flinders Street will become 11 minutes. There is currently a four and 16 minute service between Newport and the city.

- All Williamstown line weekday services between 9am and 4:30pm will run through to Flinders Street instead of the current shuttle service between Williamstown and Newport.

- All Craigieburn, Sydenham, Upfield and Werribee line evening and weekend services will operate as six-carriage trains.

- The Cranbourne/Pakenham, Werribee and Williamstown lines evening service frequency increases to 20 minutes (from 30 minutes) until about 10pm.

And don't forget changes to VLine as well.  I will be going to Melbourne in a couple of months for a visit, looking forward it, and using myki, particularly on the lovely trams .. lol

[ozbob]

Interesting reading, blog post from Daniel Bowen (PTUA)

--> http://www.danielbowen.com/2011/05/08/glen-waverley-timetables/

[ozbob]

What is the real difference between Queensland Rail and Metro?

Ummmm, uniforms?  No!

Ummm, livery on the trains?  No!

Free icypoles instead of bottle water?  No!

Nice website?   Nice, but no!

Frequency?   Y E S !!

[johnnigh]

Time to start hitting the media with the reason we have such dreadful frequencies on our CityTrain system: Treasury intransigence and short-sightedness! It's getting the funding that's the problem, not Translink's stupidity or lack of trains, crew, signals, etc etc.

[#Metro]

Finally, the facts of geometry and necessity of interchange is hitting home.

Changing trains is not evil

The City Loop's four tracks are a bottleneck, while the ten tracks into Flinders Street (from the east — another four from the west) are underused. Given Flinders Street's central location, I absolutely support having some trains bypass the Loop to allow more services, to fix conflicts/punctuality, and reduce overcrowding. We need more trains on the tracks, and this is how to do it.

People might not like it, but changing services is not evil. It's a necessity in many bigger cities around the world, because not every train can go to every destination. This is described in more detail in this article: Why "transferring" can be good for you, and good for your city.

The question always must be: will the waiting time be short? Will the other service have the capacity? And is it as convenient as possible? Unlike for many other passengers around Melbourne, for Glen Waverley to City Loop, the answer is Yes, Yes (most probably), and Yes.

Interestingly-- looks like Metro is planning "metro-fication" of the Dandenong line perhaps? Brisbane is going to look very strange in 5 years or so when Perth, Melbourne and possibly adelaide are going to have much improved trains and we will still be running backwater 30 minute frequency.

Even outside peak hour, there will be 12 trains per hour from Richmond into the City Loop until lunchtime (most on the platform across from where the Glen Waverley trains arrive). I would expect that to go up to 14 when the Dandenong line switches to every 10 minutes, a change which is hopefully coming before too long.

We need more timetable reviews per year. THE TIMETABLE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.  

[Zoiks]

Maybe we should encourage something like the following:

Year 1 - Midyear - Minor Timetable Change (Additional Services)
Year 1 - End of Year - Minor Timetable Change (Additional Services)
Year 2 - Midyear - Minor Timetable Change (Additional Services)
Year 2 - End of year - Major Timetable Review (Additional Services, Changes to allow for planned extensions, capacity increases etc)
Repeat

Tick, Tick, Tick, TOCK

[somebody]

Maybe we should encourage something like the following:

Year 1 - Midyear - Minor Timetable Change (Additional Services)
Year 1 - End of Year - Minor Timetable Change (Additional Services)
Year 2 - Midyear - Minor Timetable Change (Additional Services)
Year 2 - End of year - Major Timetable Review (Additional Services, Changes to allow for planned extensions, capacity increases etc)
Repeat

Tick, Tick, Tick, TOCK

Disagree with this.  We can't encourage sticking to the current approach which is that the current services are almost never changed.

[colinw]

Eh?  I don't think that's what Zoiks was saying at all.  A major review every 2nd year, with minor reviews every 6 months is a heck of a lot better than the ossified timetable we have had for the decade or so leading up to Richlands opening.

Still, it does beg the question that if Melbourne, with its complex network, can manage frequent review and squeeze many more services through current infrastructure, why can we not?

[somebody]

Maybe your right.

Still, we need to worry more about getting the timetable right than getting it changed frequently.

[#Metro]

Maybe we should encourage something like the following:

Year 1 - Midyear - Minor Timetable Change (Additional Services)
Year 1 - End of Year - Minor Timetable Change (Additional Services)
Year 2 - Midyear - Minor Timetable Change (Additional Services)
Year 2 - End of year - Major Timetable Review (Additional Services, Changes to allow for planned extensions, capacity increases etc)
Repeat

Tick, Tick, Tick, TOCK

We can do both. Why has it taken so long to blow off the cobwebs off the timetables? They should be regularly reviewed. METRO has a huge, complicated network with over 200 stations and an octopus of multiple lines, far more complicated system than Brisbane.

We have what, 7 or more train lines. At one timetable review per year this is going to take 7 years to just achieve mediocre frequency. We may all as well move to Perth if it is going to take that long.

[somebody]

We can do both. Why has it taken so long to blow off the cobwebs off the timetables? They should be regularly reviewed. METRO has a huge, complicated network with over 200 stations and an octopus of multiple lines, far more complicated system than Brisbane.

I would say that we really haven't blown the cobwebs off the timetable.  Still with the thinking "Anyone with a 15 minute service shouldn't be complaining", Sunday am frequency reductions, etc.

[#Metro]

I would say that we really haven't blown the cobwebs off the timetable.  Still with the thinking "Anyone with a 15 minute service shouldn't be complaining", Sunday am frequency reductions, etc.

The cobwebs are still very much there with regards to the frequency out at Caboolture, Ipswich, Beenleigh line (Beenleigh is good though), Cleveland, Ferny Grove etc.

[ozbob]

It has been interesting moving to Goodna, and leaving Darra/Oxley behind in some respects.  Since Richlands commenced there has been of course a good frequency in from Darra.  Despite the best efforts of TransLink and QR to keep it secret the punters have started to appreciate the improvements.  Moving three stations out along the line is the equivalent of going backwards in light years in public transport services.

Goodna is representative of the worst aspects of the failing public transport network in much of south-east Queensland. The physical assets are themselves run down, and it is poorly supported with integrated bus and woeful train frequency.  Despite this, and because there is no real alternative for many, the folks just stoically go about their travel in a patient manner despite the constant delays and inconvenience.

Back to Darra.  Has TransLink done anything to capitalise on the frequency?  No.  Will they do something on June 6?  Who knows, we have been told that bus timings will be altered but not much else at this time.

Is there any change in real changes in frequency post June 6 outside Northgate <-> Darra.  No there isn't, the whole thing is a charade of sorts.  There are a few services here and there additional but the base problem of poor frequency remains.

[somebody]

And in fact, I would wonder if the pitiful 305k weekly seat target will be met?