New Timetables 2011 June

[ozbob]

Lawnton to Petrie is to be done concurrently with MBRL, and will be needed.

[ozbob]

4tph Manly-Shorncliffe, with 2tph extending to Cleveland
4tph Ferny Grove-Coopers Plains
2tph Airport-Beenleigh, express Park Rd-Coopers Plains
2tph Airport-Gold Coast
4tph IPS-Petrie, with 2tph extending to Rosewood.  From Darra serve: Oxley, Indro, Toowong, Roma St all to Bowen Hills then Eagle Junction, Northgate and all to Petrie.
4tph RCH-CAB, all to Bowen Hills then Eagle Junction, Northgate and Petrie.

A few Corinda-Doomben via Sth Brisbane trains can slot in somewhere.

Good plan, let's do it!

[ozbob]

2tph Airport-Beenleigh, express Park Rd-Coopers Plains
2tph Airport-Gold Coast

Very admirable aim.  It would be smart to do it tomorrow, before Airport link is too advanced.  Coupled with some innovative ticketing and marketing and extended hours of operation ...

[HappyTrainGuy]

The reason for the Petrie terminators is because of track avability and other conflicting paths between Petrie and Caboolture (ie the arvo Tilt Train resumes the path of a terminated Petrie service/Nambour-Gympie North-Caboolture express-TravelTrain services catching the all station services/bottlenecks at the terminus between northbound services, southbound services and terminating services). Because of this they run back to Bowen Hills to form other services on the Western line.

I'd have to check but I think one of the ex-Caboolture trains is close to or has to run express to stable on the southside of Petrie in the arvo because it actually interfers with a Northbound service, a Nambour-Roma Street service and the Caboolture-Ipswich all service train.

[somebody]

The reason for the Petrie terminators is because of track avability and other conflicting paths between Petrie and Caboolture (ie the arvo Tilt Train resumes the path of a terminated Petrie service/Nambour-Gympie North-Caboolture express-TravelTrain services catching the all station services/bottlenecks at the terminus between northbound services, southbound services and terminating services). Because of this they run back to Bowen Hills to form other services on the Western line.

I'd have to check but I think one of the ex-Caboolture trains is close to or has to run express to stable on the southside of Petrie in the arvo because it actually interfers with a Northbound service, a Nambour-Roma Street service and the Caboolture-Ipswich all service train.

I don't have a problem with terminating at Petrie in peak.  That part is completely fine, and is in line with a tiered service.

Lawnton to Petrie is to be done concurrently with MBRL, and will be needed.

I still say it isn't useful without CRR.  If MBRL beats CRR, then there needs to be a reduction in peak frequency Lawnton-Virginia to increase MBRL.  Which means the mains need to reduce the numbers of pax from the section Bowen Hills-Northgate.

There may be merit in doing it with MBRL but only to reduce mobilisation costs and to eliminate the ridiculous arrangements between the North Pine River and Petrie station.

[Golliwog]

Wait, why does there need to be a drop in peak services Lawnton to Virginia to allow for MBRL trains?

[somebody]

Wait, why does there need to be a drop in peak services Lawnton to Virginia to allow for MBRL trains?

Unless these trains are extended to Kippa-Ring, (a mediocre option) then where will the paths come from?

[Golliwog]

Wait, why does there need to be a drop in peak services Lawnton to Virginia to allow for MBRL trains?

Unless these trains are extended to Kippa-Ring, (a mediocre option) then where will the paths come from?

I thought it was always just going to be an extension of the Petrie terminators. What stopping pattern would you be going for?

[HappyTrainGuy]

I don't have a problem with terminating at Petrie in peak.  That part is completely fine, and is in line with a tiered service.

If Petrie terminators were to be applied, implimented and extended during the day to Caboolture theres still a similar problem at certain times due to freight paths mixing with Nambour/Roma Street express/all station/dead and TravelTrain services. For instince in the current timetable at Caboolture it has (Both sets of times is by memory so anyone please feel free to correct me on anything).

11.32 - CAB-IPS Depart
11.39 - IPS-CAB Arrival
11.43-10.48 - Roma Street-Rockhampton Tilt
11.53 - RS-Cooroy
12.02 - CAB-IPS Depart
12.09 - IPS-CAB Arrival
There is also an inbound/outbound freight path throw in around that time too.

With regards to the new timetable I think there is a similar problem with the Sunlander (The slow version, the tilt replacment would have a revised schedule), Gympie North, freight trains, Nambour/Caboolture shuttle and the all stations services all arriving/departing Caboolture around 10.00-10.20 (platform 3 will be occupied for about 22 minutes, platforms 2+3 will both be occupied by 2 trains for around 6 minutes aswell with all 3 platforms occupied for a couple minutes).

[somebody]

I don't follow the problem.  If current timings don't suit, can't they change slightly?

I thought it was always just going to be an extension of the Petrie terminators. What stopping pattern would you be going for?

I'd be going for express Northgate-Petrie + standard stopping pattern on the mains during peak hour.  Even if it is only 4pth on that pattern, it would be better than an all stopping service.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Freight paths and Traveltrain paths don't like to be played around with alot due to the follow on effect.

Edit: Should of include the Gympie North services aswell as they are long distance services.

[somebody]

Freight paths and Traveltrain paths don't like to be played around with alot due to the follow on effect.

Then move the CityTrain times, if that is easier.  People may whinge, but they need to get over it.

[Golliwog]

I don't follow the problem.  If current timings don't suit, can't they change slightly?

I thought it was always just going to be an extension of the Petrie terminators. What stopping pattern would you be going for?

I'd be going for express Northgate-Petrie + standard stopping pattern on the mains during peak hour.  Even if it is only 4pth on that pattern, it would be better than an all stopping service.

Express past 9 stations to serve what is it, 5? new stations, I wouldn't be in favour of that. If anything time the services at Petrie so if they really want that faster trip they can change to/from a Caboolture express. I'm just against adding in another operating pattern when theres already track capacity issues in peak.

[Arnz]

I don't follow the problem.  If current timings don't suit, can't they change slightly?

I thought it was always just going to be an extension of the Petrie terminators. What stopping pattern would you be going for?

I'd be going for express Northgate-Petrie + standard stopping pattern on the mains during peak hour.  Even if it is only 4pth on that pattern, it would be better than an all stopping service.

Express past 9 stations to serve what is it, 5? new stations, I wouldn't be in favour of that. If anything time the services at Petrie so if they really want that faster trip they can change to/from a Caboolture express. I'm just against adding in another operating pattern when theres already track capacity issues in peak.

If MBRL beats out CRR, adding another express pattern for MBRL would also decrease train paths otherwise.   Therefore screwing over any future paths for Caboolture and Sunshine Coast expresses.   MBRL would be more suited to stop all stations, with a cross-platform change over at Petrie for any folks that want a "express".  That would however, require Petrie arrival timings to be 5-10 mins between each other at peak.

[ozbob]

From the Queensland Times click here!

Timetable not on the right track

Timetable not on the right track

Peter Foley | 13th April 2011

PEOPLE who use the train on the Rosewood line aren't happy with proposed changes announced by new Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk.

Ms Palaszczuk announced last week more than 150,000 weekly seats would be added to the Ipswich and Caboolture lines from June 6.

She said the timetable was finalised after incorporating feedback from "extensive community consultation".

The State Government is spending $26 million on the timetable upgrade.

Rural Ipswich councillor David Pahlke said he had heard rumblings of discontent about the timetable proposal.

"I've had people complaining to me. What they're saying is no one listened to them," Cr Pahlke said.

Jo Jamieson, who uses the Rosewood line, said it seemed everything would revolve around Darra station.

"Between 4.26pm and 6.12pm there is a train stopping at Darra every five to seven minutes and what do we get? They have taken away our normal services coming home and made it a Darra train," Ms Jamieson said.

"Do we not have a right to get home at a reasonable time too?"

Robert Dow of train lobby group Rail Back on Track said a timetable upgrade was overdue.

"The timetables have not had a major structural revision for 15 years," Mr Dow said.

"The present timetable is now virtually unmanageable. What they have done is recast from scratch to balance loadings along the entire rail corridor.

"The new timetable will be a lot more reliable. Time will tell how it settles down, coupled with the obscene fare structure and the great bus fiasco."

[somebody]

Express past 9 stations to serve what is it, 5? new stations, I wouldn't be in favour of that. If anything time the services at Petrie so if they really want that faster trip they can change to/from a Caboolture express. I'm just against adding in another operating pattern when theres already track capacity issues in peak.

Well that's exactly what happens with the Caboolture peak trains, except that it's 6 stations Petrie-Cab.

[mufreight]

The new timetable is getting quite a blister on the Queensland Times website blogs.

[somebody]

The new timetable is getting quite a blister on the Queensland Times website blogs.

I don't understand their problem with the Rosewood service.
The current timetable has trains leaving Ipswich at 4:38pm, 5:30pm, 5:51pm, 6:14pm, 6:30pm, 7:18pm, 8:08pm
The new timetable has: 4:35pm, 5:07pm, 5:35pm, 6:07pm, 6:35pm, 6:57pm, 7:35pm, 8:35pm.

Seems like an upgrade to me.  Although a 30 minute service in peak is mediocre at best.

[BrizCommuter]

The new timetable is getting quite a blister on the Queensland Times website blogs.

I don't understand their problem with the Rosewood service.
The current timetable has trains leaving Ipswich at 4:38pm, 5:30pm, 5:51pm, 6:14pm, 6:30pm, 7:18pm, 8:08pm
The new timetable has: 4:35pm, 5:07pm, 5:35pm, 6:07pm, 6:35pm, 6:57pm, 7:35pm, 8:35pm.

Seems like an upgrade to me.  Although a 30 minute service in peak is mediocre at best.

Better than Doomben!

[david]

From the Queensland Times click here!

Timetable not on the right track

Jo Jamieson, who uses the Rosewood line, said it seemed everything would revolve around Darra station.

"Between 4.26pm and 6.12pm there is a train stopping at Darra every five to seven minutes and what do we get? They have taken away our normal services coming home and made it a Darra train," Ms Jamieson said.

"Do we not have a right to get home at a reasonable time too?"

I honestly think she is complaining for the sake of complaining. Can't satisfy everyone unfortunately. Otherwise we might as well have taxis for each and every person in Queensland. As for her comment about Darra - that is just tacky. She doesn't understand the need for an interchange station if there are to be express services. We should be celebrating high frequency services, not degrading them.

QR and TransLink have done a good job for the Ipswich/Rosewood line. Bob's response to the article was appropriate.

[O_128]

why is she complaining? most rosewood trains are at the same time or with a few mins different, heres a tip jo we arent going to  give rosewood a train every 5-min

[Sunbus610]

This local newspaper ad in todays 'CITY NEWS' (re proposed New Farm bus service change) is to coincide with the new Queensland Rail timetable changes I suspect

[colinw]

I am of the opinion that the Rosewood service is acceptable for such an outer suburban area.  It is lucky to have an electric rail service at all, and frankly I doubt Rosewood would have been sparked at all in today's environment.

Obviously as the area develops the rail service will have to improve with it, but frankly the Rosewood service isn't half bad for a relatively small town that is well outside the city.

Comparison with Doomben is spurious.  Doomben is inner suburban, and should have metro-like service.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Doomben might be inner city but there have been a few services during the day where I've been the only person in one carriage from Hendra to Doomben. Then still the only person in the carriage until it got back to Eagle Junction. Until passenger levels increase or until QR can justify to spend the hundreds of millions of dollars upgrading every station and purchasing extra trains for the line, its going to remain a hourly service.

[#Metro]

This local newspaper ad in todays 'CITY NEWS' (re proposed New Farm bus service change) is to coincide with the new Queensland Rail timetable changes I suspect

That doesn't make sense though. None of these buses are timed with rail. I wonder what they are doing to these routes? There's no info.
I suspect the TransLink Iron will be out in force ironing out the wiggles in the 196/197.

I've always thought that 196 should be folded with 197 and the single new route go via Barker St, Moray St, Merthyr and Oxalade Drive to the ferry rather than the infrequent mess that is currently there...

TransLink steam iron- in TransLink orange

http://scarlett-europe.com/source/models/hires/sc-1334s/sc-1334s-orange.jpg

[colinw]

Doomben might be inner city but there have been a few services during the day where I've been the only person in one carriage from Hendra to Doomben. Then still the only person in the carriage until it got back to Eagle Junction. Until passenger levels increase or until QR can justify to spend the hundreds of millions of dollars upgrading every station and purchasing extra trains for the line, its going to remain a hourly service.

That is exactly what I expect when you provide an hourly service.  I wouldn't use it either, at that frequency.

This is a vicious cycle of reduced demand.  Nobody uses the service, because it is an unattractive service.

If you want to kill off any suburban public transport service, run it hourly or peak hours only.  You will get the same result as the Doomben line.

The Doomben line either needs to be fixed and made frequent, or closed.  The current situation does nobody any good.  Hourly frequency suppresses demand, as does half hourly to a lesser extent.

[#Metro]

That is exactly what I expect when you provide an hourly service.  I wouldn't use it either, at that frequency.

This is a vicious cycle of reduced demand.  Nobody uses the service, because it is an unattractive service.

If you want to kill off any suburban public transport service, run it hourly or peak hours only.  You will get the same result as the Doomben line.

The Doomben line either needs to be fixed and made frequent, or closed.  The current situation does nobody any good.  Hourly frequency suppresses demand, as does half hourly to a lesser extent.

Tag it on to the end of the Cleveland line. Hourly frequency during the floods on all lines made me realise how impossible PT is to use when it is low frequency.
There is plenty of travel demand on Kingsford Smith Drive. If you want proof that people do CBD to Doomben, look no further. The problem is that PT has not been able to get mode share
away from car. Hence we have a bizzare situation where KSD has huge congestion but the train line that parallels it has tumbleweeds on it.

[somebody]

Doomben might be inner city but there have been a few services during the day where I've been the only person in one carriage from Hendra to Doomben. Then still the only person in the carriage until it got back to Eagle Junction. Until passenger levels increase or until QR can justify to spend the hundreds of millions of dollars upgrading every station and purchasing extra trains for the line, its going to remain a hourly service.

That is exactly what I expect when you provide an hourly service.  I wouldn't use it either, at that frequency.

This is a vicious cycle of reduced demand.  Nobody uses the service, because it is an unattractive service.

If you want to kill off any suburban public transport service, run it hourly or peak hours only.  You will get the same result as the Doomben line.

The Doomben line either needs to be fixed and made frequent, or closed.  The current situation does nobody any good.  Hourly frequency suppresses demand, as does half hourly to a lesser extent.

Agree.  At one time I was thinking of closing it, but now I think that a low price upgrade would help significantly, and also help free Caboolture line trains from serving Albion and Wooloowin.  I am convinced that the Doomben upgrade would allow this with no additional infrastructure.

The other issue is that there is no turnback facility with a reasonable amount of spare capacity inside of Petrie.  Upgrading Doomben to provide service to Albion and Wooloowin (also EJ) would be a great help IMO.  Even if full duplication proceeded to Shorncliffe, that would still be a long way away.

[BrizCommuter]

Doomben might be inner city but there have been a few services during the day where I've been the only person in one carriage from Hendra to Doomben. Then still the only person in the carriage until it got back to Eagle Junction. Until passenger levels increase or until QR can justify to spend the hundreds of millions of dollars upgrading every station and purchasing extra trains for the line, its going to remain a hourly service.

You need frequency to attract passengers. When a train line in London was converted from a 45 min frequency rail line to a 12 min frequency Tramway, the patronage increased 700%.

[colinw]

While I say "run it properly or close it", I don't really want to close it.

I am of the opinion that the Doomben line has enormous untapped potential if only we had the sense to use it properly.

Specifically:

1. The corridor is "duplication ready", and only Hendra needs a 2nd platform face built.
2. A TOD at the racecourse (proposed already), and extension to Hamilton North Shore would bring in plenty of patronage.
3. Trains terminating at Bowen Hills are wasteful - send the Cleveland Line trains down to Doomben. The matching south-side service to provide a full Doomben service already exists, it just isn't paired properly.
4. Urban density in Clayfield, etc., is already high.  There have been a lot of old Queenslander type homes replaced with units over the last 20-30 years. Those people ignore the train, because it isn't there when they want it. (Why wait for an hour for a train when you can drive to the city in 15 minutes?).  The density of the area around Clayfield/Hendra is little different to Buranda or Taringa.  People use trains in both those suburbs, but not in Clayfield? The only difference is the service frequency & hours of operation.
5.  A connecting bus service from Doomben could easily serve Australia TradeCoast, TAFE at Eagle Farm, etc. Instead those buses duplicate the railway, so you get a farcical Nambour like situation with rail replacement buses interleaved with infrequent trains.
6. KSD.  As TramTrain says, it is very heavily used, yet the parallel railway (which bisects the main residental areas north of KSD) carries air.
7.  Clayfield and Hamilton both supported intensive high frequency rail services until 1969. TRAMS.  The frequency was the key.

At that distance from the city, and with the demographics of the area, little short of a turn-up-and-go Metro standard service will suffice.  I would be willing to bet that public transport patronage from Clayfield & Hamilton went into terminal decline about 5 minutes after the last tram ran, and has never recovered.

[#Metro]

Q: Does it actually need full duplication... could trains pass each other at stations ?

[colinw]

Q: Does it actually need full duplication... could trains pass each other at stations ?

Eagle Junction to Ascot is a single line section.  There is a loop at Ascot, and again at Doomben.

Eagle Junction to Doomben is timetabled as 7 minutes all stations (down direction).
Doomben to Eagle Junction is timetabled as 8 minutes all stations (up direction).

Half hourly frequency would appear to impose no difficulty at all

Quarter hourly frequency would either require a precision cross at Ascot, or holding each train at Doomben until the next service from Eagle Junction arrives.

I therefore contend that the line could be used "as is" for an extension of the existing half hourly offpeak Cleveland service, but more frequent peak services or fulltime quarter hourly service will require duplication.

[somebody]

Q: Does it actually need full duplication... could trains pass each other at stations ?

Eagle Junction to Ascot is a single line section.  There is a loop at Ascot, and again at Doomben.

Eagle Junction to Doomben is timetabled as 7 minutes all stations (down direction).
Doomben to Eagle Junction is timetabled as 8 minutes all stations (up direction).

Half hourly frequency would appear to impose no difficulty at all

Quarter hourly frequency would either require a precision cross at Ascot, or holding each train at Doomben until the next service from Eagle Junction arrives.

According to STB, the points at Ascot are clipped.  And there is some problem with the second platform at Ascot.  Besides precision crosses need to be eliminated.  Hence my proposal of a duplication Ascot-Doomben.  Full duplication would be overkill IMO.  Maybe Ascot-Eagle Junction may have a case also.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Station buildings on the unused platform at Ascot are unsafe so the whole platform is out of order.

[colinw]

I think that for quarter hourly service you are going to need full duplication.

Consider: 7 minutes from Eagle Jct to Doomben. Assume 6 to 8 minutes to turn back a 6 car train. So by the time the train is ready to leave Doomben, the next service is about due to enter the branch at Eagle Junction. With double track the cross would occur somewhere around Hendra.  It is therefore still necessary to hold the departing train at Doomben or at Ascot, to allow for the 5 or so minutes for the next service to run from EJ to Ascot.

I say go for full duplication.  Eagle Junction to Doomben is only 3.4km anyway, so the project will be of similar scope to (say) the Mitchelton to Keperra duplication.  The duplication should include modern high standard stations (similar to Grovely) for the line.  The stations along the entire line are looking very tired.

[justanotheruser]

Goodna station, an access nightmare.  Anyone care?  No, not really, blunder on ...

So what is the solution for goodna?

[HappyTrainGuy]

The main problem with the Doomben/Pinkenba line is that its basically building a whole brand new line. Every single station has to be upgraded just for the disability act, signaling, level crossings, sleeper/track replacement/instillation, electrification and public crossovers modified. Then there's consulting with Graincorp, BP, Boral, Shell, Incitec Pivot and any other owners of private rail that extend from the Doomben/Pinkenba line. Its allright saying increasing services, extend the line further and more people would come but there's a limit to what they can do. They'd have to spend a couple hundred million before they could even consider extending the line. Then there's the other projects of more trains, duplicating the single track on the Gold Coast Line, duplicating/realignment/new stations on the North Coast Line, Shorncliffe duplication, Richlands-Springfield line, Caloundra rail line and then the big two Kippa Ring and CCR. They only have so much available at their disposal.

[ozbob]

All true, but linking into the Hamilton North Shore developments will mean the cost is well justified.  The road solutions are in billions, a few hundred millions to turn the corridor into something really useful,  the rail corridor is there work will be needed but it is not excessive, and in the context of a failing road system I have little doubt will eventually be upgraded.

[somebody]

Station buildings on the unused platform at Ascot are unsafe so the whole platform is out of order.

So, does that make it merely a demolition job?  There doesn't need to be a building on the platform, but I guess a go card reader would be required.

However the polls gave several options which would change things. Especially on one of them (shorncliffe I think) the majority said 15 minutes and 30 minutes so 20 minutes would be a good compromise.   Of course 15 minute frequency is more attractive however it is very common strategy to use what is sometimes called salami tactics. Get a bit here and a bit there and slowly work to your final goal. That may be the way to go. Possibly not.

Umm, the first two polls asked the question: what should we lobby for?

So, incorrect.

I think that for quarter hourly service you are going to need full duplication.

Consider: 7 minutes from Eagle Jct to Doomben. Assume 6 to 8 minutes to turn back a 6 car train. So by the time the train is ready to leave Doomben, the next service is about due to enter the branch at Eagle Junction. With double track the cross would occur somewhere around Hendra.  It is therefore still necessary to hold the departing train at Doomben or at Ascot, to allow for the 5 or so minutes for the next service to run from EJ to Ascot.

I say go for full duplication.  Eagle Junction to Doomben is only 3.4km anyway, so the project will be of similar scope to (say) the Mitchelton to Keperra duplication.  The duplication should include modern high standard stations (similar to Grovely) for the line.  The stations along the entire line are looking very tired.

Plan 1, duplicate Ascot-Doomben

Eagle Junction	:00	:15	:30	:45
Ascot	:05	:20	:35	:50
Doomben	:07	:22	:37	:52
-
Doomben	:20	:35	:50	:05
Ascot	:22	:37	:52	:07
Eagle Junction	:28	:43	:58	:13

Where's the problem?  Only issue I can see is that a delayed inbound train could delay an outbound train, which may delay another train at Eagle Junction.

An alternative would be:
Plan 2, duplicate Eagle Junction-Clayfield, utilise both platforms at Doomben:

Eagle Junction	:00	:15	:30	:45
Clayfield	:01	:16	:31	:46
Doomben	:07	:22	:37	:52
-
Doomben	:23	:38	:53	:08
Clayfield	:29	:44	:59	:14
Eagle Junction	:28	:43	:58	:13

Kind of tight.  Extending the duplication to the west end of Hendra would add margin.

I feel that full Doomben duplication would really be a non starter ATM, largely due to the station upgrades.  I think there is a need to get something done here which can be done now.

[colinw]

Ah, I see what you have done, yes that is workable but tight.

For now, I'd like to see a minimum fuss extension of most Cleveland services to/from Doomben, giving the line equivalent service to the rest of the network.