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Author Topic: Salisbury - Kuraby triplication rant  (Read 2427 times)

somebody

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Salisbury - Kuraby triplication rant
« on: April 03, 2011, 11:33:29 AM »
Start rant.

What is with:
The lack of a 50km/h or better crossover on the north side of Coopers Plains which doesn't result in conflicts.  What I mean here is something like this, showing existing arrangements + missing bit:

Down Main ------------------------------------------------------------
                                        \                       /        \
Up Main    -------------------------------------------------------------
                                                \       /                \
Third Road -------------------------x-----------------------------------
                                              \    \
                         Salisbury          To Acacia Ridge             Coopers Plains

Where: \ = the missing crossover

There is also no crossover between Coopers Plains and Fruitgrove.  Such a crossover, from the "down main" to the "up main" heading south would have facilitated a 15 minute frequency to Kuraby.  In a project worth $256m, the cost of these additional crossovers would hardly have been noticed, and would also have helped to deliver value for money from the project. 

I do wonder if there had been a penny pinching bean counter with no understanding of rail operations trimmed these needed items.

Now a bit more of an extreme proposition:
The ideal would be to have a protected high speed track (even if only one) for the Gold Coast trains.  This would be best done in this case by a driven tunnel from Runcorn to Coopers Plains instead of the third track on the same alignment.  That would avoid the second slowest bit of the Beenleigh line through Altandi.  While this would be considerably more expensive, it would have added a lot more value also.  Not requiring underground stations and a single track would have reduce the cost/km considerably below CRR.  Failing that, protected surface tracks, preferably with a flyover at Coopers Plains to connect the "down main" (middle track) with the dual guage track would have been better than what was actually delivered.  140-160km/h running for the 4-5km as the crow flies would easily allow overtaking of Beenleigh trains in this section if a tunnel, and the 2-3 minute occupation time of the single track should allow it to be used in both directions all day.


End rant.

You were warned.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Salisbury - Kuraby triplication rant
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 11:47:44 AM »
How are we going to fund all of this?

So many ideas and plans, so little money available.
We need ideas on new cash $$$ sources.

As for high speed Gold Coast trains- the best reduction in overall journey time would be to double the frequency and allow infrastructure for that. Save 15 minutes just on waiting time alone- I think that's a large time saving.
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somebody

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Re: Salisbury - Kuraby triplication rant
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 11:51:41 AM »
How are we going to fund all of this?

So many ideas and plans, so little money available.
We need ideas on new cash $$$ sources.

As for high speed Gold Coast trains- the best reduction in overall journey time would be to double the frequency and allow infrastructure for that. Save 15 minutes just on waiting time alone- I think that's a large time saving.
You don't save 15 minutes, unless you are thinking of the evening hourly frequency.  Turn up and go people save 7.5 minutes on average: 7.5 minutes average wait versus 15 minutes average wait.

Besides, who uses the Gold Coast line as a turn up and go passenger outside peak?

Also, there is plenty of money.  It's just being misdirected.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Salisbury - Kuraby triplication rant
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2011, 12:46:36 PM »
Well my journeys on the gold coast line usually the trains are every 30 minutes, so that's 15 minutes waiting at least on average. Of course, the fact that this can blow out to a full 30 minutes (which has happened many times) if you are really unlucky isn't nice either.

Quote
The question customers ask is "what is the worst case I'll typically experience?"  And when an agency says the buses come "every 12 minutes" this customer is going to hear "OK.  I'll never wait longer than 12 minutes."  Is that customer going to get burned by trusting the 12-minute map?  I'm sure Los Angeles commenters will fill us in.  A comment from someone at the agency would be even more helpful.
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/08/the-perils-of-succeeding-on-average.html

I think 15 minute basic service to the Gold Coast is something to aim for. Its not as high priority IMHO as fixing up the local Brisbane lines, however, should still be on the list. (Perth to Mandurah, trains 15 minutes off-peak, population 85 000, Gold Coast 500 000, half hourly service, go figure!!!).

A decent basic frequency on the rail network needs to be banged home.
I am not talking about metro-style services, or comprehensive public transport, but the bare essentials.

15 minutes OFF PEAK (until 8.30 pm at minimum)
10 minutes or better PEAK
is that basic frequency IMHO.

As for funding, I am getting worried. This is a general comment overall: No amount of denial is going to pull in the dollars. If there is no cash, there is no project. Full stop. That's why SEQ 2031 might easily morph into SEQ 2051 IMHO.

Yes there is money going into things I and others don't agree with, but the first hurdle is somehow to fund $8.5 billion (possibly "Plus Plus") for Cross River Rail, then something needs to be done about all the niggles on the current QR network like stations with 1 platform and single track at the most inconvenient locations, and then extensions of the QR network, and then 30 km of subways -- I hope the picture is becoming a bit clearer. Someone is going to have to strike a very large Gold deposit under Treasury bldg to fund this...
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 12:49:48 PM by tramtrain »
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Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Salisbury - Kuraby triplication rant
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2011, 12:51:53 PM »
Quote
Now a bit more of an extreme proposition:
The ideal would be to have a protected high speed track (even if only one) for the Gold Coast trains.  This would be best done in this case by a driven tunnel from Runcorn to Coopers Plains instead of the third track on the same alignment.  That would avoid the second slowest bit of the Beenleigh line through Altandi.  While this would be considerably more expensive, it would have added a lot more value also.  Not requiring underground stations and a single track would have reduce the cost/km considerably below CRR.  Failing that, protected surface tracks, preferably with a flyover at Coopers Plains to connect the "down main" (middle track) with the dual guage track would have been better than what was actually delivered.  140-160km/h running for the 4-5km as the crow flies would easily allow overtaking of Beenleigh trains in this section if a tunnel, and the 2-3 minute occupation time of the single track should allow it to be used in both directions all day.


Although I will concede that your idea might have more merit in funding as it might carry more people than some of the tunnel projects built so far!!!
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

somebody

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Re: Salisbury - Kuraby triplication rant
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2011, 01:49:47 PM »
Well my journeys on the gold coast line usually the trains are every 30 minutes, so that's 15 minutes waiting at least on average. Of course, the fact that this can blow out to a full 30 minutes (which has happened many times) if you are really unlucky isn't nice either.
Err, exactly how is 15min-7.5min == 15min?  You are correct that the worst wait is reduced by 15min.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Salisbury - Kuraby triplication rant
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2011, 02:42:55 PM »
I see you are not familiar with Murphy's law?
 :is-

Try and catch a GC train and it has just departed? Yes it would be nice if my "average" time at the station was 15 minute wait for a half hour service, but this gives QR, TL et al far too much credit. So that means the Perth trains are on average waiting 7.5 minutes eh??? Sometimes I am lucky and the train pulls up, other times I am totally unlucky and I watch the train pull out of the platform and I have to wait for 30 minutes (at this point I am swearing to myself and have half a mind to walk into my nearest Ford Dealership). The "average" of these two extremes is "only" a wait of 15 minutes but in reality on what you have is on average a very average service (mediocre?) and infuriated customer.  :is-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy's_law

Quote
Murphy's law is an adage or epigram that is typically stated as: "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong".
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

 

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