Article and discussion: No-buses trial could end soon (Ipswich)

[mufreight]

From the article in the Queensland Times this morning it is obvious that Translink management has a fixation on the use of taxi's to provide a more inconvenient and less reliable service at a higher operating cost rather than than the bus services they replaced.
The alternative bus services that Translink is now proposing vary from an at best frequency of 90 minutes to two hourly with a shorter overall period of service operation than what was originally provided in another intransigent attempt to force Ipswich residents to accept a sadly flawed, failed, degraded and more costly taxi based service.  One must wonder why and what advantage there is in this and for who, definately not the residents of Ipswich winning here.

[ozbob]

From the Queensland Times click here!

Options for cab service put up

Options for cab service put up

Zane Jackson | 17th March 2011

IPSWICH residents will be able to give their feedback on three public transport options that could replace the FlexiLink taxi service at meetings today and on Saturday.

The two Ipswich meetings have been called by TransLink after new Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk cut short a 12-month trial of the program, which replaced a number of axed buses.

A TransLink spokesman said after three months of the trial, the following three options have been put forward as possible alternatives:

Retaining FlexiLink in zones A (North Ipswich/Tivoli), B (Basin Pocket/Bundamba), C (Goodna/Bellbird Park) and D (Karalee) with enhancements to the service, including booking anytime up to two hours prior to travel, better infrastructure at drop-off points and additional drop-off points at Redbank Plaza Shopping Centre

A bus service running close to every 90 minutes during peak and less frequently off-peak until 8.10pm out of Bell Street to cover zone A and B. Zones C and D remain with the FlexiLink service enhancements including continuing zone C travel to Redbank Plaza.

A bus service running hourly during peak and two-hourly off-peak until 6.35pm out of Bell Street. Zones C and D remain with the service enhancements including continuing Zone C travel to Redbank Plaza Shopping Centre.

The trial was initially due to continue on until December 13, but ever since the service was introduced on that date in 2010, it has been widely criticised by its patrons.

Ipswich residents Michelle and Ray Radunz have campaigned strongly against the service.

Mrs Radunz said previous community reference group meetings with TransLink officials had been frustrating, and she hoped these feedback sessions would be different.

"There seems to be more recognition of this issue this time around compared to past meetings – maybe people realise they have a chance to get their buses back if we speak out," Mrs Radunz said.

"I hope this will be a different kettle of fish and we get a big turn-out."

Ms Palaszczuk has said she would make a decision on the future of FlexiLink by the end of the month.

She previously said that if the service received overwhelmingly bad feedback, it would be ditched with the axed buses set to return.

Meanwhile, the current FlexiLink service will continue until further notice, with no changes occurring until community consultation is over.

The first feedback meeting will be held today from 11am-1pm at the Ipswich Civic Centre's Cunningham Room.

The second session will be held this Saturday from 9am – 11am at the Ipswich RSL's Coral Sea and Bougainville Rooms.

[Golliwog]

From the article in the Queensland Times this morning it is obvious that Translink management has a fixation on the use of taxi's to provide a more inconvenient and less reliable service at a higher operating cost rather than than the bus services they replaced.
The alternative bus services that Translink is now proposing vary from an at best frequency of 90 minutes to two hourly with a shorter overall period of service operation than what was originally provided in another intransigent attempt to force Ipswich residents to accept a sadly flawed, failed, degraded and more costly taxi based service.  One must wonder why and what advantage there is in this and for who, definately not the residents of Ipswich winning here.

Isn't the problem a shortage of buses at Ipswich's bus company?

[somebody]

Isn't the problem a shortage of buses at Ipswich's bus company?

Never heard that before.  They were able to run the other services in previous times, albeit not that well.  One would think if that were the case, the 463 in particular could be run by BT instead of Westside.

[mufreight]

Translink turned up for their feedback session in Ipswich today, it was apparent from the comments of a number of those who attended that there was no interest by Translink in feedback or residents opinions on the public transport issues here, it was basicly a case of which untenable option proposed by Translink is the most acceptable, a continuation of the Flexilink service with all its flaws, faults and failures or an even more degraded bus service with frequencies of 90 minutes to two hours in the peak with overall reduced hours of operation.
It is obvious that the strategy Translink is utilising here is offer token bus services at a level of service that is simply not even a poor joke that is totaly unaceptable to residents in the hope that the residents will give up and accede to this dictitatorial imposition by Translink.
It is equaly obvious that the local residents are not prepared to give in on this and this issue and the manner in which it has been handled by Translink will ensure the political demise of the current Government Members holding seats in the area.

[ozbob]

From the Queensland Times click here!

Commuters hit out at FlexiLink

Commuters hit out at FlexiLink

Zane Jackson | 18th March 2011

IPSWICH commuters gave FlexiLink the thumbs down as they reviewed three alternatives to the taxi service at an information session yesterday.

Two of the three alternatives are returns to bus services in some areas.

As the FlexiLink system was a trial replacement for three axed bus routes, many residents said the possible return of bus services spoke volumes about how ineffectual the taxi service was.

While previously calling for the buses to be returned, some residents said they were not happy with the bus alternatives available.

TransLink network planning manager Roman Gafa said TransLink provided the bus options, which serviced the same areas but had different running times and frequencies, after gathering feedback from commuters.

Based on further feedback from residents, TransLink will make recommendations and Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk will make a decision by the end of the month.

Mr Gafa said he did not think introducing the service would be a waste of time should the scheme be scrapped for buses.

"I think it was worth giving FlexiLink a try," he said.

The proposed bus routes would cover North Ipswich, Tivoli, Basin Pocket and Bundamba.

Bundamba resident Vida Leane, 76, said she was unhappy there would not be a straight return to the old bus routes that were axed.

Save Our Buses lobby group member Dr Patricia Petersen and bus campaigner Ray Radunz said they were extremely disappointed with the meeting, both claiming pertinent questions were not answered and commuter feedback not listened to.

Another meeting will be held this Saturday from 9am to11am at the Ipswich RSL's Coral Sea and Bougainville rooms.

Alternatives

    * Retaining FlexiLink with improvements to the service
    * Reintroducing bus services to North Ipswich, Tivoli, Basin Pocket and Bundamba with two different timetables

For more information visit www.translink.com.au

[colinw]

It increasingly appears that TransLink and the Government are not interested in Ipswich at all, or indeed anything other than the 5 days a week peak hour commute to the Brisbane CBD. (And not even that if you live on the Sunshine Coast).

It will take a public transport driven election to start fixing this mess. One in which Government members lose their seats over backlash to poor public transport and lack of alternatives to clogging up the roads with more cars. Neither the Government nor Strachan at TransLink are listening. Not even the local member (Nolan) being the Transport minister helped - it appeared she was not even interested in representing the needs of her own electorate.

[longboi]

@Colin
Ok, so what do you call the extra services and new timetables on the Ipswich line? What do you call a complete revamp of the Ipswich bus network including the installation of basic bus infrastructure? What do you call Richlands extension with Springfield being pushed forward by 2 years?

I swear some people will never be happy until there are buses and trains stopping door-to-door in every street of every suburb of every City 

[somebody]

It increasingly appears that TransLink and the Government are not interested in Ipswich at all, or indeed anything other than the 5 days a week peak hour commute to the Brisbane CBD. (And not even that if you live on the Sunshine Coast).

It will take a public transport driven election to start fixing this mess. One in which Government members lose their seats over backlash to poor public transport and lack of alternatives to clogging up the roads with more cars. Neither the Government nor Strachan at TransLink are listening. Not even the local member (Nolan) being the Transport minister helped - it appeared she was not even interested in representing the needs of her own electorate.

I believe this is unlikely.  While it is happening in NSW & VIC, WA recently voted out their pro-rail government didn't they?  Not sure what other issues applied.  Also not sure what is happening in SA.  Seems people aren't happy with the PT system over there either.

so what do you call the extra services and new timetables on the Ipswich line?

Only really an improvement in peak.  I say it is a degradation in the off peak.

[mufreight]

@Colin
Ok, so what do you call the extra services and new timetables on the Ipswich line? What do you call a complete revamp of the Ipswich bus network including the installation of basic bus infrastructure? What do you call Richlands extension with Springfield being pushed forward by 2 years?

I swear some people will never be happy until there are buses and trains stopping door-to-door in every street of every suburb of every City  

A total and complete stu*f up by an incompetent Transport Minister and even more incompetent Translink management, the cancelation of services can not by any stretch of the imagination be called a revamp, what infrastructure has Translink provided in the Ipswich region? the additional services on the Ipswich line were forced on Translink by public pressure and the response by QR management, as for the Springfield line being brought forward by two years, you have to be kidding it was originaly scheduled to be completed by the end of this year and the supposedly accelerated schedule was the result of Federal funding provided as a result of political pressure applied to a desperate government, Translink's contrubition was what.  A fare increase that has detered patronage, an appalling timetable that has resulted in services not connecting by one or two minutes resulting in intermediate waits of 28 minutes, another deterent to patronage.
What else could you call such a pathetic result.
Sorry Nicko not even an adequate defence of the indefensible.

[#Metro]

The subsidy is 75%. For that huge amount of subsidy I think we ought to get something decent for our tax money and fare money.
Public transport commuters pay three times over.

1. First when they get taxed to fund the 75% subsidy to prop up a system that tries to sell the unsellable- rotten apple rail frequency
2. Secondly when they get charged for their ticket and then that goes up by 15%
3. Thirdly when they have to wait for half an hour for their mediocre service. Half an hour might be an extra $5 - $10 worth of time.

Ripoff!!   

[#Metro]

Ok, so what do you call the extra services and new timetables on the Ipswich line?

They are an improvement, which is welcome. I'm sorry to keep bringing up Perth as the bastion of the example of bare minimum BASIC public transport frequency but the Thornlie spur line coming off the Armadale line (17 km from Perth station) which is about the same distance as Richlands station on the QR network. Thornlie sees trains every 15 minutes in the off-peak. Richlands does not. Spot the difference! And Richlands is brand new!

People don't like to hear about Perth. They don't want to know about it. What, someone can do better than us at the basics?
They don't even want to talk about the train system Brisbane has because it is so embarrassingly bad. Come and look at the busways,
come and look at the ferries. Rail system? Oh, you don't want to see that...

What do you call a complete revamp of the Ipswich bus network including the installation of basic bus infrastructure?

An improvement. To have a public transport bus system with no proper bus stops, I don't think I need to write more.

[somebody]

A total and complete stu*f up by an incompetent Transport Minister and even more incompetent Translink management, the cancelation of services can not by any stretch of the imagination be called a revamp, what infrastructure has Translink provided in the Ipswich region?

I don't agree with this particular criticism.  The 510 never strayed more than about 30 minutes walk from a train station, and spent most of its time within 20 minutes walk.  I think it is fair for this service to be provided on demand rather than by a route bus.  The 523 was slightly more useful.  The main mistake was cutting the 505.

There were some good improvements in the revamp though.  Sunday services for the first time was among them.

It's hard to get positive moves if you criticise everything.

[#Metro]

Ipswich City Council is the elephant in the room here. Time for a council public transport levy like the Sunshine Coast to fund bus services in areas that are below the TransLink minimum density threshold. I take it the Sunshine Coast council uses this to "prove" patronage and then can apply for funding from the state..

[ozbob]

The reason why there is a lot of community rage out at Ipswich is basically because it has been obvious for many years that the bus timetables were hopeless, they had buses leaving Ipswich before they arrived and so forth. The patronage did fall a bit, but not as much as claimed by the authorities. Ipswich citizens did their own counts and to this day their figures have not been challenged.  The figures show loadings actually higher than many of the present services.  In essence Ipswich punters were punished for a systemic failure by the authorities to actually fix the bus timetables over a long period, there was a move to be made in 2007 but it was not done.  They were left to hang.

Fast forward to the end of 2010, they were simply told the bus routes were to go and you can have Flexi-Link.  No consultation or nothing prior to this move.

Ideally the bus timetables should have been sorted, and if there were patronage load concerns a 'use or lose it' period at least done.  There are many bus routes in BCC that have less loads than some of the withdrawn routes in Ipswich. 

I support the Ipswich citizens in the quest for the return of their buses.  I have been out there many times, have talked to the folks and regularly chat by phone as well.  I have used the buses out there and the flexi-link.

mufreight is right about the political backlash.  They are very very upset and it is perfectly understandable.  The options recently presented by TransLink are not going to calm them at all. They rightly want their bus services back, with a proper frequency.

[somebody]

Are you referring to the 505/510/523 routes which were axed, or were there other aspects of the change which irked the Ipswich residents?

[ozbob]

There is some local concern with the loss of hail and ride, effects a number of folks with impaired mobility, but the base issue is the bus route withdrawal without warning.  Many folks have settled because they had bus access, now no more.

[colinw]

@Colin
Ok, so what do you call the extra services and new timetables on the Ipswich line? What do you call a complete revamp of the Ipswich bus network including the installation of basic bus infrastructure? What do you call Richlands extension with Springfield being pushed forward by 2 years?

I swear some people will never be happy until there are buses and trains stopping door-to-door in every street of every suburb of every City  

Oh great, someone trying to defend the utter and complete mediocrity of our public transport system.  Pull the other one!  

I do not expect buses or trains stopping at every door as you say, I do however expect a half decent attempt at service provision.

Ipswich Line - still half hourly offpeak, and slower than it used to be.  Wow, there's a win! Richlands - Half hourly - seriously - we built a new railway for half hourly services?  What is the sense in that?

Ipswich Buses.  If by "revamp" you mean routes cancelled and replaced with so-called Flexilink, which people absolutely hate, and now TransLink are not prepared to put sensible options on the table, then yes, it has been revamped.  I hope my local bus service doesn't get "revamped" into non-existence in the same manner.

Yes, Springfield is being brought forward.  That isn't TransLink's doing, it is a political decision at a level well above TransLink, i.e. it will be foist upon them whether they want it or not.  That, incidentally, is 2 years forward after being deferred for 4 or 5.  It was originally meant to be open all the way to Springfield by 2011, but everyone conveniently forgets that. I guess Government spin does work after all. I bet its half hourly offpeak when it opens too.

[#Metro]

Perth vs Brisbane


Is it really true that we can't run frequent services because the network is too big?


The Armadale line is ~ 30 km to the terminus. About the same distance as Ipswich line at 38km.
Armadale- 15 minute trains. Ipswich- 30 minutes.

The Midland line is ~ 16 km to the terminus.
About the same distance as the Ferny Grove line which is 16km. Midland 15 minute trains. Ferny Grove 30 minutes.

The Fremantle line is 18km to the terminus. About the same distance as from Central to Hemmant on the Cleveland line
or comparable to the Shorncliffe line (16km). Fremantle line- 15 minute trains. Hemmant and Shorncliffe lines 30 minutes.

The Gold Coast line is ~75 km. Directly comparable with Perth's Mandurah line in terms of distance and service type. Both trains run express and have limited stops (in Perth's case the intermediate stations do not exist, in Brisbane's case the train simply bypasses them). Identical trains. Recent upgrades and duplication to the track and the Gold Coast line is also fairly new too. 15 minutes frequency to Mandurah and. Half an hour frequency to the Gold Coast.

The Caboolture Line is ~ 50 km. Directly comparable with Perth's Joondalup line in terms of distance. Some concession can be given for the slightly bent alignment in Brisbane and older age of the line. However, nothing special is out at Clarkson. Caboolture line has a township at the terminus and fast growing suburbs like North Lakes etc. 15 minutes frequency to Clarkson. Half an hour to Caboolture.

All these train lines in Perth run 15 minute frequency in the off-peak. Perth IS a valid yardstick to use when comparing against the QR rail system. There is no excuse for not running these lines with decent frequency in Brisbane. What is out at Armadale? Surely something like Ipswich can get 15 minutes off peak with the population that it has.

The City of Armadale (pdf 1.3MB) lies at the heart of Heritage Country. Less than an hour from Perth on the Albany Highway, Armadale encompasses the hills and valleys of the Darling Range. It also comprises the charming townships of Kelmscott, Roleystone, Bedfordale and Forrestdale, each boasting their own distinctive identity and character.

http://www.experienceperth.com/en/Destinations/Pages/Armadale.aspx

Map
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Perth,+Kelmscott,+Western+Australia,+Australia&aq=0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=31.095668,88.066406&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Kelmscott+Western+Australia,+Australia&ll=-32.155051,116.008801&spn=0.016204,0.059352&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=-32.153983,116.013651&panoid=Kguzyj7baB8FH7FXstux8w&cbp=12,99.44,,0,4.09

Perth. Haven of BASIC STANDARD public transport.

[colinw]

Perth. Haven of BASIC STANDARD public transport.

Which will soon overtake us in total rail patronage, despite having a system less than half the size of CityTrain.  All of this built from a miserably low base of less than 10 million rail trips per year (similar to Adelaide) just 25 years ago (when Brisbane was already doing 40 million).

If we keep dishing up the same old crap to the punters in South East Queensland, then we will continue to get the same result.

[#Metro]

This whole "we can't do it because the network is so big"- well I don't believe it.
The size of the network is inflated by Rosewood, Sunshine Coast and Gympie North lines.
Cut these places out of the picture and you get a very different picture. There isn't even proper service to Dutton Park, Buranda and Windsor!

Hiding behind this 'network size' as a defence, I don't think will fly. Nobody is asking for 15 minute services to Rosewood or Gympie North.

[colinw]

That is exactly it.  Even the inner part of the network, directly comparable with the Perth network or the inner parts of Sydney or Melbourne, gets a fraction of the service, and for significantly higher fares in many cases.

E.g. where I live at Kuraby, which is 22km on the Beenleigh line, gets half hourly rail service and hourly bus offpeak. And that is despite having MORE infrastructure than a comparable line in Perth (triple line).  Furthermore the buses and rail don't even co-ordinate in any meaningful sense - you are as likely to have a bus leave the station just before the train arrives than just after it.  That means very few people ever use it for bus/rail interchange, even though it is one of the two rail stations closest to Springwood.

The same distance from Sydney as Kuraby is Hornsby.  It also has suburban service with an overlaid interurban service.  How many trains per hour suburban service does Hornsby get?  (Not 2tph, although one of the lines via Hornsby - the Northern line - DOES drop to that during the day).

[#Metro]

Ipswich should get a decent train service. 15 minute frequency to Ipswich. Buses meet trains (I think most do already).

[somebody]

The same distance from Sydney as Kuraby is Hornsby.  It also has suburban service with an overlaid interurban service.  How many trains per hour suburban service does Hornsby get?  (Not 2tph, although one of the lines via Hornsby - the Northern line - DOES drop to that during the day).

One station south on the Northern Line takes you to Normanhurst.  Since the ECRL, that has been receiving 4tph, however half of them terminate at Chatswood for a large part of the day, so they are largely useless.  However, the north shore line does receive 4tph as far as Hornsby like a BUZ.

[david]

A total and complete stu*f up by an incompetent Transport Minister

A little harsh, considering that she's only been in the job for 3 weeks. I think you intended to aim your criticism at the former Transport Minister.

[justanotheruser]

@Colin
Ok, so what do you call the extra services and new timetables on the Ipswich line? What do you call a complete revamp of the Ipswich bus network including the installation of basic bus infrastructure? What do you call Richlands extension with Springfield being pushed forward by 2 years?

I swear some people will never be happy until there are buses and trains stopping door-to-door in every street of every suburb of every City  

A total and complete stu*f up by an incompetent Transport Minister and even more incompetent Translink management, the cancelation of services can not by any stretch of the imagination be called a revamp, what infrastructure has Translink provided in the Ipswich region? the additional services on the Ipswich line were forced on Translink by public pressure and the response by QR management, as for the Springfield line being brought forward by two years, you have to be kidding it was originaly scheduled to be completed by the end of this year and the supposedly accelerated schedule was the result of Federal funding provided as a result of political pressure applied to a desperate government, Translink's contrubition was what.  A fare increase that has detered patronage, an appalling timetable that has resulted in services not connecting by one or two minutes resulting in intermediate waits of 28 minutes, another deterent to patronage.
What else could you call such a pathetic result.
Sorry Nicko not even an adequate defence of the indefensible.

So if it was translink who chose to put the fares up why didn't they announce it?  Why was it the government who announced the fare increases and left it for translink to implement?

I have found several bus routes which were changed are now more reliable. I also think having more services on a sunday is great in this day and age where more people are working 24/7. I have also found that like in many places the main shopping precint is well serviced.  So there are advantages as well as disadvantages. Perhaps that is why nobody is interested in listening because they just get sick and tired of people only complaining and never saying what the good things are.  There is an old saying that 9 out of 10 people who get bad service will complain while only 1 in 100 who receive good service will say anything. Over the last 30 years I have never found a saying that is more true. Yep I wouldn't be real interested in listening either. But sure you go ahead and continue to campaign to have a system that doesn't work rather than having them try different things to fix it.

The subsidy is 75%. For that huge amount of subsidy I think we ought to get something decent for our tax money and fare money.
Public transport commuters pay three times over.

1. First when they get taxed to fund the 75% subsidy to prop up a system that tries to sell the unsellable- rotten apple rail frequency
2. Secondly when they get charged for their ticket and then that goes up by 15%
3. Thirdly when they have to wait for half an hour for their mediocre service. Half an hour might be an extra $5 - $10 worth of time.

Ripoff!!  

Your contradicting yourself TT.  You complain that they have the high subsidy but also complain when they try to reduce it. Which is it?

[justanotheruser]

@Colin
Ok, so what do you call the extra services and new timetables on the Ipswich line? What do you call a complete revamp of the Ipswich bus network including the installation of basic bus infrastructure? What do you call Richlands extension with Springfield being pushed forward by 2 years?

I swear some people will never be happy until there are buses and trains stopping door-to-door in every street of every suburb of every City  

Oh great, someone trying to defend the utter and complete mediocrity of our public transport system.  Pull the other one!  

I do not expect buses or trains stopping at every door as you say, I do however expect a half decent attempt at service provision.

Ipswich Line - still half hourly offpeak, and slower than it used to be.  Wow, there's a win! Richlands - Half hourly - seriously - we built a new railway for half hourly services?  What is the sense in that?

Ipswich Buses.  If by "revamp" you mean routes cancelled and replaced with so-called Flexilink, which people absolutely hate, and now TransLink are not prepared to put sensible options on the table, then yes, it has been revamped.  I hope my local bus service doesn't get "revamped" into non-existence in the same manner.

Yes, Springfield is being brought forward.  That isn't TransLink's doing, it is a political decision at a level well above TransLink, i.e. it will be foist upon them whether they want it or not.  That, incidentally, is 2 years forward after being deferred for 4 or 5.  It was originally meant to be open all the way to Springfield by 2011, but everyone conveniently forgets that. I guess Government spin does work after all. I bet its half hourly offpeak when it opens too.

So are you saying that if people don't like something then it should be scrapped. Lets look at something else that was done without peoples consent. Reserve Bank Governor Bernie Fraser approached Bob Hawke & Paul Keating and said if we drag the recession out longer than we need to we will have a once in a lifetime opportunity to reduce interest which will take awhile before it comes in. Do you really think people wanted the recession to last longer? Of course not and in the result CPI was lower for which Howard got all the credit despite basically all the hard decisions being made by Hawke & Keating. So just because people have an opinion does not make it the right way to go.

by the way I always voted against Hawke and Keating.    

That is exactly it.  Even the inner part of the network, directly comparable with the Perth network or the inner parts of Sydney or Melbourne, gets a fraction of the service, and for significantly higher fares in many cases.

E.g. where I live at Kuraby, which is 22km on the Beenleigh line, gets half hourly rail service and hourly bus offpeak. And that is despite having MORE infrastructure than a comparable line in Perth (triple line).  Furthermore the buses and rail don't even co-ordinate in any meaningful sense - you are as likely to have a bus leave the station just before the train arrives than just after it.  That means very few people ever use it for bus/rail interchange, even though it is one of the two rail stations closest to Springwood.

The same distance from Sydney as Kuraby is Hornsby.  It also has suburban service with an overlaid interurban service.  How many trains per hour suburban service does Hornsby get?  (Not 2tph, although one of the lines via Hornsby - the Northern line - DOES drop to that during the day).

hang on your complaining about train lines having half hourly off peak services and then quote a train line that drops to half hourly services in off peak as justification to why it could be done?  Tell me does Kuraby have 4 train lines servicing it like hornsby does or are you just making an unfair comparison?

[justanotheruser]

From the Queensland Times click here!

Bundamba resident Vida Leane, 76, said she was unhappy there would not be a straight return to the old bus routes that were axed.

This comment shows the stupidity of some people.  The previous  bus timetable clearly did not work. That is even more clear than flexilink failure! The bus that this resident wants returned was one of the worst runs with the buses so late it could have been the next one running 10 minutes early. Of course that is if the bus turned up! Nothing will ever be fixed while people won't give new options a go. I for one do not want a system that doesn't work returned. I would rather they try and find some different alternatives.  Of course if the community who all got together to protest actually got together and helped each other out then that would solve alot of problems too. Seems they would rather only band together to be critical rather than offer workable alternatives themselves. It just makes it laughable when I hear older people complaining young people have no initiative.

[justanotheruser]

The same distance from Sydney as Kuraby is Hornsby.  It also has suburban service with an overlaid interurban service.  How many trains per hour suburban service does Hornsby get?  (Not 2tph, although one of the lines via Hornsby - the Northern line - DOES drop to that during the day).

One station south on the Northern Line takes you to Normanhurst.  Since the ECRL, that has been receiving 4tph, however half of them terminate at Chatswood for a large part of the day, so they are largely useless.  However, the north shore line does receive 4tph as far as Hornsby like a BUZ.

True but unlike kuraby hornsby is a home for part of the suburban train fleet and therfore the north shore line provides trains that go from the city to hornsby via the mainline and also blacktown. So 4tph on the north shore line translates into 2tph on each of those other two lines.  The number of trains is not there for same reasons that BUZ services exist here. For the most part trains here are stored in one spot with a few trains left out in the open at the end of some lines.

[justanotheruser]

This whole "we can't do it because the network is so big"- well I don't believe it.
The size of the network is inflated by Rosewood, Sunshine Coast and Gympie North lines.
Cut these places out of the picture and you get a very different picture. There isn't even proper service to Dutton Park, Buranda and Windsor!

Hiding behind this 'network size' as a defence, I don't think will fly. Nobody is asking for 15 minute services to Rosewood or Gympie North.

Sure there may not be many trains to buranda but there are several buses that go there or within 5 minutes walk.

[Gazza]

So what I don't get is, if patronage in these areas is so low, why don't they just run minibuses, driven by people on minimum wage?

Surely that's going to be much cheaper to run, and a better fit for the capacity requirements of the area than full sized buses?

[Arnz]

Transit Australia (owners of Surfside on Gold Coast and Sunbus on the Sunshine Coast) I believe has some mini-buses that see less route work those days (as most services are operated by 40-50 seater Bustech bodied rigids).

Up here I mostly see the CB20 bodied mini buses on the local Nambour town service.  

[Stillwater]

Noosa blue bus: http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36693

[somebody]

hornsby is a home for part of the suburban train fleet

Not sure why this is relevant.

therfore the north shore line provides trains that go from the city to hornsby via the mainline and also blacktown. So 4tph on the north shore line translates into 2tph on each of those other two lines. 

While this is true to a small degree, nothing would stop them reversing 2tph at North Sydney, Lindfield or Gordon.  The 4tph is definitely provided all the way to Hornsby to improve service on that line.  As to why they want to improve service, it could be for political reasons, or it could be largely a CityRail initiative.  I'm not sure how we would know.

What annoys me is the Hornsby-Chatswood via Epping shuttles.  If they don't want improve service to Epping via North Strathfield, then why not connect these trains to Richmond and have 4tph to Penrith?

The number of trains is not there for same reasons that BUZ services exist here. For the most part trains here are stored in one spot with a few trains left out in the open at the end of some lines.

See above.

So what I don't get is, if patronage in these areas is so low, why don't they just run minibuses, driven by people on minimum wage?

Surely that's going to be much cheaper to run, and a better fit for the capacity requirements of the area than full sized buses?

I've wondered about that also.  A smaller bus would be a better idea out Ipswich way IMO.

[#Metro]

Your contradicting yourself TT.  You complain that they have the high subsidy but also complain when they try to reduce it. Which is it?

It is not a contradiction because it is possible to have BOTH low fares AND low subsidy. Public transport has economies of scale.

There is more than one way to reduce subsidy. One is to simply push the transport system towards zero services. The cheapest public transport system simply is no public transport system at all (on paper at least). Or you might run "profit only" services like peak hour express buses and then nothing for the rest of the day. This is the 'airtrain' approach. High fares and fewer services.

The alternative way is this: If you have a decent product to sell, people will buy it and the revenue generated from that reduces subsidy. This might be called the 'BUZ' approach, where all day usage grows patronage in the off-peak where it is cheaper to supply extra services because the vehicles are surplus from peak hour.

The problem with the current approach, is that the fares go up and rotten apple products are being sold. So no wonder people balk at it and the subsidy blows out because it costs money to maintain infrastructure but the service is carrying air parcels around. I think either Brizcommuter or Somebody said that the subsidies increased after the fares went up because more people were turned away.

[#Metro]

Sure there may not be many trains to buranda but there are several buses that go there or within 5 minutes walk.

I think this is besides the point. A train service must have services!
This is an inner city station that doesn't have proper services so close to the CBD.

[colinw]

Hopefully I've got the quoting right.  

Oh great, someone trying to defend the utter and complete mediocrity of our public transport system.  Pull the other one!  

I do not expect buses or trains stopping at every door as you say, I do however expect a half decent attempt at service provision.

Ipswich Line - still half hourly offpeak, and slower than it used to be.  Wow, there's a win! Richlands - Half hourly - seriously - we built a new railway for half hourly services?  What is the sense in that?

Ipswich Buses.  If by "revamp" you mean routes cancelled and replaced with so-called Flexilink, which people absolutely hate, and now TransLink are not prepared to put sensible options on the table, then yes, it has been revamped.  I hope my local bus service doesn't get "revamped" into non-existence in the same manner.

Yes, Springfield is being brought forward.  That isn't TransLink's doing, it is a political decision at a level well above TransLink, i.e. it will be foist upon them whether they want it or not.  That, incidentally, is 2 years forward after being deferred for 4 or 5.  It was originally meant to be open all the way to Springfield by 2011, but everyone conveniently forgets that. I guess Government spin does work after all. I bet its half hourly offpeak when it opens too.

So are you saying that if people don't like something then it should be scrapped. Lets look at something else that was done without peoples consent. Reserve Bank Governor Bernie Fraser approached Bob Hawke & Paul Keating and said if we drag the recession out longer than we need to we will have a once in a lifetime opportunity to reduce interest which will take awhile before it comes in. Do you really think people wanted the recession to last longer? Of course not and in the result CPI was lower for which Howard got all the credit despite basically all the hard decisions being made by Hawke & Keating. So just because people have an opinion does not make it the right way to go.

by the way I always voted against Hawke and Keating.    

Where did I say anything about scrapping anything?  All I was saying is that if you look at what has occurred in Ipswich it is all rather mediocre.  Half hourly trains at best, and the locals clearly not happy with their bus services. Public Transport is about service delivery, if it doesn't provide a service that people need and want then it isn't meeting its objectives. I don't see that the reserve bank example you give is at all relevant.

That is exactly it.  Even the inner part of the network, directly comparable with the Perth network or the inner parts of Sydney or Melbourne, gets a fraction of the service, and for significantly higher fares in many cases.

E.g. where I live at Kuraby, which is 22km on the Beenleigh line, gets half hourly rail service and hourly bus offpeak. And that is despite having MORE infrastructure than a comparable line in Perth (triple line).  Furthermore the buses and rail don't even co-ordinate in any meaningful sense - you are as likely to have a bus leave the station just before the train arrives than just after it.  That means very few people ever use it for bus/rail interchange, even though it is one of the two rail stations closest to Springwood.

The same distance from Sydney as Kuraby is Hornsby.  It also has suburban service with an overlaid interurban service.  How many trains per hour suburban service does Hornsby get?  (Not 2tph, although one of the lines via Hornsby - the Northern line - DOES drop to that during the day).

hang on your complaining about train lines having half hourly off peak services and then quote a train line that drops to half hourly services in off peak as justification to why it could be done?  Tell me does Kuraby have 4 train lines servicing it like hornsby does or are you just making an unfair comparison?

Note entirely a fair comparison (4 tracks vs. 3 tracks, and with the ECRL in use both lines funnel into two tracks across a bridge to access the CBD, just like the Beenleigh line), but the closest equivalent distance I could quote that I am familiar with (because I used Hornsby & Pennant Hills a lot when I am in Sydney).  Hornsby gets 6TPH or better to the CBD via the Harbour Bridge full time, plus interurban & freight service which goes via the Strathfield route.

Pick a station at equivalent distance from the Brisbane CBD anywhere in Perth, Melbourne or Sydney and it will most likely have double the service frequency or better.   Even some Adelaide ones do (not many, but they are improving).

I don't know why people get so upset when it is pointed out just how 3rd rate Brisbane's public transport really is.  Are we so parochial & blind up here that we simply must "do things the Queensland way" and ignore the rest of the world?

It seems to me that the expectation of crap service has become so deeply ingrained that people actually get annoyed when it is challenged.

[somebody]

I think for the comparison to Hornsby to be fair in the sense of mixed all stoppers and interurban services (there is also freight), you have to look at it pre-ECRL, and ignore the North Shore.  There was only a brief period of sustained 4tph off peak operation then, in the mid 90s.  AIUI everyone whinged about poor reliability so they went back to 2tph service.  It is one reason why it really irks me when people complain about poor reliability, as the solutions include cutting services and slowing them down.

What annoys me about the Salisbury-Kuraby triple is that if they had added a single crossover somewhere like Sunnybank, a 4tph to Kuraby service would have been doable with a reasonable operating margin.  But they didn't do that as they do not want any more of those annoying passengers IMO.  Or maybe they thought about how to improve off peak service but just stuffed it, although I doubt that.

[somebody]

Pick a station at equivalent distance from the Brisbane CBD anywhere in Perth, Melbourne or Sydney and it will most likely have double the service frequency or better.   Even some Adelaide ones do (not many, but they are improving).

There are exceptions in Sydney, such as Tempe* (6.84km), Arncliffe, (8.42km), Banksia (9.6km), Carlton (12.74km), Allawah (13.69km), Oatley (18.28km), Como (21.24km), Homebush (12.74km), Clyde* (20.6km), Harris Park* (22.6km), Wentworthville (26.7km), Pendle Hill (28.3km), Toongabbie (29.9km), Berala, Regents Park, ECRL stations, Northern Line and Carlingford line, Sefton (21.19km)-Carramar (25.9km), Loftus (26.29km)-Waterfall (38.74km) stations beyond Revesby (20.96km) and Blacktown (34.8km).

South Line only receives 2tph from 11:14am-1:44pm but 4tph until 11:44pm heading inbound, times at Merrylands.

Stations marked with * probably do not require a better service

Of CityRail's 100-200 suburban stations within 21km (Darra is 16km, Bald Hills is 20km, Petrie 27.4km, Kuraby 22.5km, Shorncliffe & Ferny Grove <20km) something like 85% receives a 4tph service.  The Northern Line reduces this statistic enormously.  Most stations further than about 10km out also receive limited stops service full time.

I don't know why people get so upset when it is pointed out just how 3rd rate Brisbane's public transport really is.  Are we so parochial & blind up here that we simply must "do things the Queensland way" and ignore the rest of the world?

It seems to me that the expectation of crap service has become so deeply ingrained that people actually get annoyed when it is challenged.

This culture really irks me also.  It's stronger than annoyance to.  I may well leave this town, before you do as I don't have a house here. 

I must say, even on RailBoT I have noticed people getting annoyed at mediocrity being challenged.  I won't name any names.

[justanotheruser]

Sure there may not be many trains to buranda but there are several buses that go there or within 5 minutes walk.

I think this is besides the point. A train service must have services!
This is an inner city station that doesn't have proper services so close to the CBD.

If one was to increase the number of train services then those buses should be cut out perhaps.  Having numerous bus routes and a train gives people plenty of options. If it had no buses I could understand your point but in reality while it may only have 2tph people have way more options and flexibility because of the buses.