Feeling ripped off?

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/02/brisbane-vs-everywhere-else.html
Ouch!

[Stillwater]

And what was the fare(s) as a percentage of average weekly earnings?  That is, would a fare to travel 5km in Madrid, although lower than Brisbane, represent a higher impost on the individual earning the average weekly wage?  Statistics and damned lies -- we are back to comparing West Australian apples and Brisbane oranges; well Spanish citrus and Queensland pomme fruit.

[Gazza]

We're still cheaper than Sydney ($3.20) and Adelaide ($4.60!) thankfully.

[Stillwater]

With the withdrawal of monthly and other periodic tickets, at the end of the five-year, year on year 15 per cent annual rise in fares, a worker travelling five days a week return between Palmwoods and Central would be forking out $9000 annually to QR.  Given the level of service on the SCL, now THAT'S being ripped off!

[ozbob]

Hey Briz, is the date correct?  ie Exchange rates used were as of 27/02/2010.

Very useful list, thanks for compiling it.

[somebody]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/02/brisbane-vs-everywhere-else.html
Ouch!

Interesting list, but why are other Australian cities excluded?

[colinw]

Here's what I come up with using the journey planners for the 5 Australian suburban rail systems.  Note: I do not trust my Adelaide result as their website confused me.

Brisbane: $3.11 (Go Card zones 1/2, Roma St to Fairfield, a bit over 5km, 13 minutes by train)
Sydney: $3.20 (MyTrain Single ticket 0-10km, Wynyard to St Leonards, a bit over 5km, 13 minutes by train)
Melbourne: $2.94 (Zone 1 myki, Flinders St to Hawthorn, a bit over 5km, 8 minutes by train)
Adelaide: $4.60??? (Adelaide to West Croydon, approx 5km, 7 minutes by train)
Perth: $2.50 (Perth to Subiaco, about 6km, 6 minutes by train)

The Perth fare of $2.50 is the cash single.  A SmartRider card drops it to $1.88.

Perth wins both on fare and speed of service.  Brisbane & Sydney tie for slowest over the distance, and have a similar fare (but the Sydney fare would get you nearly twice as far).  Adelaide returned an anomalously high fare of $4.60 but I'm not convinced I interpreted their very confusing ticket guide correctly.

Melbourne is in the middle of the pack for both speed & cost.

Perth, Sydney & Melbourne trains were all much more frequent than Brisbane or Adelaide.  Brisbane & Adelaide both offered only 2TPH on the routes selected.

Adelaide fare information: http://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/ticketing/fares.html

[#Metro]

These are prices, but they do not capture total costs.

When you catch public transport, you actually pay twice: once in cash for the fare, and again in time for waiting and the journey.

A passenger makes a decision based ontotal, not nominal cost. This is where train frequency comes into the equation.
A person would happily pay more for a metro service that ran every 5 minutes than say the same service if it ran hourly.

While it would be painstaking to try and apply values of time to estimated waiting times, it would be easier to simply report the frequency (2tph).
Under this analysis, Perth is a bargain. Not only do you get a cheap fare, but also frequent service.

So a solution could take two forms: increase frequency (get proper apples), or decrease cost (discount the price of rotten apples).

[BrizCommuter]

Hey Briz, is the date correct?  ie Exchange rates used were as of 27/02/2010.

Very useful list, thanks for compiling it.

Sorry, should be 2011

[ozbob]

 

[Gazza]

Adelaide returned an anomalously high fare of $4.60 but I'm not convinced I interpreted their very confusing ticket guide correctly

.
The $4.60 fare is flat for the whole city, so that explains the higher price (The perils of a flat fare!)
The only cheaper option is a 2 section (approx 3km) ticket for $2.70.

[ozbob]

Adelaide, nice place ..

http://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/promos/promos.html

TWO CHILDREN TRAVEL FREE with an adult using a Daytrip ticket!

On Saturday, Sunday, public holidays and during school holidays, when a parent or guardian purchases a Daytrip Metroticket, two children under the age of 15 can travel FREE OF CHARGE for the entire day, saving you up to $8.40! Daytrip Metrotickets can be purchased on board the bus, train or tram at the time of boarding.
Travel to great places like the Adelaide Zoo, Cleland Wildlife Park, Port Adelaide Museums, and many more, all for the cost of a Daytrip Metroticket!

Current fares in Adelaide --> http://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/ticketing/fares.html

[ozbob]

From the Courier Mail click here!

Public transport in southeast Queensland ranks among world's most expensive

Public transport in southeast Queensland ranks among world's most expensive

    * by Robyn Ironside
    * From: The Courier-Mail
    * March 01, 2011 12:00AM

SOUTHEAST Queensland commuters are paying some of the highest prices in the world for public transport, despite being consistently told train and bus fares are very competitive.

Since the 15 per cent price hike in January, the cost of a zone two go card fare has climbed to $3.11, cheaper than the London underground ($3.95) but dearer than comparable distances in Berlin ($2.85), Paris ($2.30) and Madrid ($1.70).

Tokyo residents pay $1.95 for a subway single, New Yorkers pay $2.50 and Los Angeles residents $1.47.

Most cities also offer heavily discounted weekly or monthly tickets, which are no longer available in southeast Queensland's go card fare structure.

In New York, $29 gets you a seven-day unlimited-trip subway ticket and in Madrid a monthly zone A ticket costs $62 less than what many Brisbane commuters are spending on train or bus fares a fortnight.

The price differences have sparked calls from a commuter advocacy group for a major overhaul of ticket pricing in southeast Queensland.

Robert Dow, of Back on Track, said the steep fares were not only putting people off using public transport, they were damaging tourism.

"We think it's got to a pretty serious situation and, anecdotally, we've been told there seems to be some evidence patronage has fallen since the January increase," Mr Dow said.

"The other thing is the high cost of paper tickets, which are usually the ones bought by tourists. You're looking at $3.90 for a zone one ticket and $4.60 for two zones. That can't be good for tourism."

He said although former Transport Minister Rachel Nolan stated in October 2009 that "passengers would continue to pay cheaper fares than in Sydney and Melbourne" despite the fare increases, that was not the case.

"Weekly tickets are available in Sydney for as little as $25, and in Melbourne from $29.40," Mr Dow said.

"People who commute from the Sunshine Coast, for example, are looking at paying an extra $5000 or $6000 a year in fares because of the loss of the periodical ticket. Politically it's going to be disastrous."

But a Translink spokesman defended the cost of public transport in southeast Queensland, describing it as "one of the best value for money" networks in Australia.

"For every $1 the customer spends on public transport it is subsidised by about $3 from taxpayers, making fares good value when compared with similar-sized networks across the world," he said.

"Public transport continues to offer value for money when compared to car travel and we would encourage everyone to use public transport and compare it with the efficiency of using their car."

Members of Back on Track have planned a boycott of rail services on March 17 to protest massive fare hikes.

[colinw]

Well done BrizCommuter (and RailBOT) for highlighting this issue and getting it into the media.

Clearly the Government has walked away from any thought of growing public transport mode share, and are now using the UK mainline rail tactic of fare gouges to suppress demand, thereby deferring the need to invest in the system.

If you wanted to set a public transport system on a trajectory toward reduced mode share and eventual failure, combining world's worst practice frequency with price gouge fares and lack of sensible periodical and capping is the way to do it. To do much worse that this, you would have to perform research into what makes a public transport system work, and then deliberately suppress demand by doing the opposite. 

Bring on the PUBLIC TRANSPORT election.  It is time for the opposition to front up with their policies.

[somebody]

Bring on the PUBLIC TRANSPORT election.  It is time for the opposition to front up with their policies.

Let's just hope that the opposition do better than last time.

[colinw]

The comments on that Courier-Mail article have gone right off.  302 and counting.

[#Metro]

I hope BrizCommuter compares Perth vs Brisbane!!! 

[#Metro]

    FREQUENCY       trains every 15 minutes or better , 7 days,  6am-11.30 pm.

[#Metro]

Movement in sydney as well: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/state-election-2011/out-of-the-jam-how-to-get-sydney-back-on-track-20110228-1bbsc.html

[#Metro]

Heather Posted at 12:58 PM Today
Those comparing Brisbane to other cities overseas, why not compare it to Perth? The train from Mandurah to Perth takes 45mins at peak hour and if you are registered with SmartRider, costs $6.53 one way. This is the same distance as Landsborough to Brisbane; which takes from the shortest PEAK,hahahaha, time 1hr19 to more than TWO HOURS and costs $8.83 on Go card and $12.90 on paper ticket. And Nambour is even more expensive. Perth's population is just over 1.6million (Brisbane is over 2million) and Mandurah has 85,000 people as opposed to the Sunshine Coast's 340,000. And we don't actually HAVE a train line, as it runs inland, and most of the population live on the coast, a min of 20 mins drive. And what's with the stupid search thing on the Transinfo website - location vs landmark?
Comment 328 of 391

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/public-transport-in-southeast-queensland-ranks-among-worlds-most-expensive/comments-e6freoof-1226013765312

Heather seems to know her stuff...

[Golliwog]

I would tell her that shes kind of comparing apples with oranges. Mandurah is a town with a smaller population than the Sunshine Coast, true. But the Sunshine Coast is a regional council with an area of 3124.5 square kilometers compared to Mandurah's area of 106.6 square kilometers (Source: Wikipedia). She also has a whinge about the rail line not going to where the people live (near the coast) as if it was built that way. The rail (again from Wikipedia) line was first built to Petri in 1888 and was completed to Cairns by 1924. Its not the railway lines fault people chose to live on the coast.

[#Metro]

IMHO does it actually matter? Poor service is poor service! Mandurah is tiny!
Enough excuses. The rail line is already there- maybe it needs extension to Caloundra and duplication. A difficult task, but less difficult than having to build 70km of rail from scratch.

Let's not forget stations like Coorparoo- so close to the CBD and yet 30 minute service!!! 
Are you kidding me!!! 15% price increase on that 0% increase in frequency.

The government should just buy everyone in Brisbane a one-way ticket to Perth.
SEQ growth problem solved.

[Golliwog]

But again, how big are the towns along the SCL? Much smaller than Mandurah I would think. And Mandurah doesn't have freight does it?

As for Coorparoo, they've already announced that they're re-writing all the other timetables in the second half of this year once they finish with the IPS-CAB corridor so I would be expecting an upgrade then. You can't just click your fingers and have more trains running.

[colinw]

I appreciate that we can't just snap our fingers and expect instant results, but am getting sick of the way the debate always seems to come around to reasons why "we're different up here" or "you can't do that".

Its funny the way here in Queensland we always seem to be looking for constraints or excuses NOT to do things, or reasons why things won't work. Meanwhile in Perth and elsewhere they just get on with the job and provide the service.

I used to think Adelaide was the home of backward looking "can't do" attitude in Australia.  I have to revise that and say it is Brisbane.

This really is Hicksville.

[#Metro]

Not good enough. No excuses will do.
Freight is even more reason to fix up the line.

I left my GoCard at home, and for the first time in a long time got a paper ticket. $4.60 to travel 2 zones! UNBELIEVEABLE!
For rotten apple 30 minute service.

Next thing we will be hearing excuses about how cities starting with capital "P" are able to run services but cities beginning with "B" cannot.

[colinw]

I left my GoCard at home, and for the first time in a long time got a paper ticket. $4.60 to travel 2 zones! UNBELIEVEABLE!
For rotten apple 30 minute service.

Sadly it is now more than a month since I have even swiped my Go Card.

The system is not catering to my needs, and is not cost effective even when it does.

As of a few weeks ago I hold a learner's permit, something I have resisted doing for 26 years since being of driving age. Next year I will be joining the masses on the roads, and for the first time we will be a two vehicle family.

A transfer to our UK office is looking more & more attractive, because even small villages in the area we are located have a better train service than Brisbane.  With the announcement this week that the GWML electrification from London to Cardiff is proceeding, it is looking even more attractive.  By 2016 head office - in a town about the polulation of Maryborough (22,000) - will be located a short walk from a station carrying a half hourly or better 200 km/h electric intercity service (possibly 225km/h after sparking).

Brisbane is being left behind I'm afraid, and poor public transport is already impacting the economy.

[cranky chap]

 

I will be protesting on March 17. This is a massive ripooff. My transport costs have risen by 200%

[somebody]

I appreciate that we can't just snap our fingers and expect instant results, but am getting sick of the way the debate always seems to come around to reasons why "we're different up here" or "you can't do that".

Its funny the way here in Queensland we always seem to be looking for constraints or excuses NOT to do things, or reasons why things won't work. Meanwhile in Perth and elsewhere they just get on with the job and provide the service.

I used to think Adelaide was the home of backward looking "can't do" attitude in Australia.  I have to revise that and say it is Brisbane.

This really is Hicksville.

Hear here, colinw!  I fully back you in these comments.

I actually think Sydney has such an attitude to some degree, but it isn't nearly as bad as Brisbane.  What particularly irks me in Brisbane is that you are thought to be an arsehole if you complain about anything.  It was a comment made by someone the first time I came here as an adult, that you aren't allowed to point out any limitations with anything and he may have been referring to politics in particular.  In Sydney, what was with the insistence on keeping a non integrated ticketing system with the T-card smart card ticketing system, allegedly leading to its demise?

Back to Brisbane, I have recently been involved a project which is a very significant advance, and if my boss could have stopped it from being done, he would have.  Another senior figure was also against it.  I can also think of other examples from the past when Queenslanders have sought to prevent advances.  It is the land of mediocrity and intransigence.  What is with:

• city stop location stupidity
  
• destination display stupidity
  
• lack of consultation on any change to anything
  
• reluctance to change anything
  
• the determination to put PM rocket bus routes onto Adelaide St, even when the full time services stop in QSBS
  
• lack of a reasonable train frequency except where multiple lines converge
  
• The attitude that no one should complain about a 15 minute service frequency when a better could be easily provided.  15 minutes is NOT turn up and go.  That's why they have to say that it is.
  
• The lack of a full time express service to Caboolture and Ipswich
  
• All stations trains still running to/from Caboolture and Ipswich in peak hour
  
• Sunday am hourly frequency and evening early finish
  
• Lack of coordination between bus routes on the same corridor
  
• The Flood.  It would have been avoided with an appropriate operating strategy, which we don't have.  Then they put their hands out for federal funding.  This is the Queensland way.  In Sydney, at least they flooded Richmond when it would have been prudent to do so.
  

Perhaps this post should be deleted, but I needed a vent.

[Fares_Fair]

Feel better ?   

Regards,
Fares_Fair

[ozbob]

 

[O_128]

But again, how big are the towns along the SCL? Much smaller than Mandurah I would think. And Mandurah doesn't have freight does it?

As for Coorparoo, they've already announced that they're re-writing all the other timetables in the second half of this year once they finish with the IPS-CAB corridor so I would be expecting an upgrade then. You can't just click your fingers and have more trains running.

Look if timetable rewrites don't hav AT LEAST a 15 min frequency then don't even bother

[dwb]

And what was the fare(s) as a percentage of average weekly earnings?  That is, would a fare to travel 5km in Madrid, although lower than Brisbane, represent a higher impost on the individual earning the average weekly wage?  Statistics and damned lies -- we are back to comparing West Australian apples and Brisbane oranges; well Spanish citrus and Queensland pomme fruit.

The flat fare for trips here in Rio is generally R$2.40 (reals) or R$2.80 on metro and some buses are R$2.50 or even R$2.70.

There is a new card that apparently let's you transfer from one bus to another within the city within 1hr for a "single" cost, otherwise no transfers exist.

The minimum wage has just been put up to R$560 per month. Yes per month. That is about R$2 something per hour.  So the journey/commute not only takes time but costs significantly compared to minimum wage. Of course for tourists that's not much, but for locals it is!

Just another angle on international comparisons.


Ed. $1AUD = R$1.7... so that makes a normal trip on the metro here about $1.66AUD, which may be about 6mins of an Aussie's minimum wage, but here is almost 30mins!

[dwb]

* The attitude that no one should complain about a 15 minute service frequency when a better could be easily provided.  15 minutes is NOT turn up and go.  That's why they have to say that it is.
* The lack of a full time express service to Caboolture and Ipswich
* All stations trains still running to/from Caboolture and Ipswich in peak hour
* Sunday am hourly frequency and evening early finish
* Lack of coordination between bus routes on the same corridor

Perhaps this post should be deleted, but I needed a vent.

I couldn't agree more. 15mins seems to be the best it gets in Brisbane, and that is at BEST an average wait of 7.5mins... which really given unreliability is more like 12mins or even 25mins more often than not (ie with bunching you wait for ever then 2 turn up).

I really think some shorter routes especially in inner city areas that have the land use to support all day services should run at very high frequencies!

[somebody]

Feel better ?   

Regards,
Fares_Fair

A little bit.

[colinw]

Perhaps this post should be deleted, but I needed a vent.

Please don't!  I think it contains legitimate concerns.

[dwb]

And what was the fare(s) as a percentage of average weekly earnings?  That is, would a fare to travel 5km in Madrid, although lower than Brisbane, represent a higher impost on the individual earning the average weekly wage?  Statistics and damned lies -- we are back to comparing West Australian apples and Brisbane oranges; well Spanish citrus and Queensland pomme fruit.

The flat fare for trips here in Rio is generally R$2.40 (reals) or R$2.80 on metro and some buses are R$2.50 or even R$2.70.

There is a new card that apparently let's you transfer from one bus to another within the city within 1hr for a "single" cost, otherwise no transfers exist.

The minimum wage has just been put up to R$560 per month. Yes per month. That is about R$2 something per hour.  So the journey/commute not only takes time but costs significantly compared to minimum wage. Of course for tourists that's not much, but for locals it is!

Just another angle on international comparisons.


Ed. $1AUD = R$1.7... so that makes a normal trip on the metro here about $1.66AUD, which may be about 6mins of an Aussie's minimum wage, but here is almost 30mins!

I've just found out from the locals here that under the constitution, workers are paid an amount on top of their wage for their travel to and from work (as well as their lunch). The amount they are paid relates to their actual use travelling to and from work, for those who have average wages (ie not super rich) the benefit is practically unlimited. I'm still not entirely sure if the government pays or if the employer pays (two people told me different things), however either way, this is a great way for there to be money to invest in public transportation... and it can support higher fares... ie the customer is not paying, the benefitor (the business/govt) is paying.

And perhaps that's the way it should be here? But rather than through general subsidy (where you don't know who is subsidising who), you have higher ticket prices but offset the cost through taxation/ work benefits etc.

Here in Rio, the main cost in transport to a worker is time. The journey/ commute for many could easily add more than a 1/3 to their working week. If workers didn't have their transport costs paid for by their employer under the constitution (above the minimum wage) they could be paying roughly 20% of their wage solely on transport, not even factoring the 15hrs commute time per week or their housing costs!

Although buses/ metro costs cost roughly $1.66AUD/ trip (R$2.80 per trip) its not cheap considering the minimum wage in Brazil is only R$560 per month (roughly R$2 something per hour)!