Terms of use Privacy About us Media Contact

Author Topic: Gold Coast Light Rail  (Read 194187 times)

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« on: February 25, 2008, 07:58:09 AM »
Gold Coast Rapid Transit Translink website



Decision should be coming soon.
Be interesting to see if the best long term solution, light rail will used.


Article below from Gold Coast Bulletin click here!
Rapid transit system hits protest wall

Quote
Rapid transit system hits protest wall

25Feb08

COUNCILLORS, protest groups and residents have urged the Federal Government to assist in the planning of a rapid transit system for the Gold Coast before an inferior transport system is built.

Transport experts and Coast business people expressed their anger over controversial plans for a $600 million transit system at a rally on Saturday.

More than 500 people attended the Macintosh Island event, including Mayor Ron Clarke and councillors Susie Douglas and Dawn Crichlow who all endorsed bus rapid transit as the best option for the Coast.

The newly-formed Gold Coast Public Transport Alliance organised the rally and alliance spokesman Kevin Cooke spoke at the meeting.

"We have been kept in the dark and fed misinformation for too long. The large turnout on Saturday demonstrates that Gold Coast residents and the business community demand better consultation," said Mr Cooke.

"It was apparent from many of the speakers that the project has been ill thought through, has no real leadership and that the range of alternatives and options for the route and the type of transportation to be adopted have not been properly investigated."

The group is calling for an immediate halt to the project, which is being overseen by Translink.

Cr Douglas voiced her disapproval at the light-rail proposal and said the coast needed a plan to benefit everyone on the Gold Coast.

"I think the Government should listen to the people. The Government need to go back to the drawing board," said Cr Douglas.

She said the light-rail plan was outdated and said the meeting was 'just the beginning' of a long road in finalising a transport system.

"I know the Federal Government doesn't get involved in any city's developments and it would be a first for them but it's such a big issue.

"The Gold Coast is a different geographical city than any other so I think they need to," she said.

"There's no way people from the suburbs can get around and they can't drive to a train."

Michael Apps, head of the Gold Coast Bus Rapid Transit Taskforce, said that a bus system was the only viable option for the Coast.

"BRT can cost a third less than light rail which is enough to make ratepayers stand up and demand that a more affordable, environmentally friendly and modern public transport option be considered," said Mr Apps.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 03:54:40 PM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2008, 11:47:24 AM »
 ???
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline mufreight

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3026
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2008, 08:18:49 AM »
The Gold Coast currently has a relatively good bus system which is limited by the levels of traffic congestion,
A bus based rapid transit for the coast is a flawed concepy.
Light Rail would require a smaller footprint, have a higher capacity and be more environmentaly friendly.
No light rail will not be able to cover avery street but it does provide a fast high capacity trunk for a transit system at a lower operating cost with either kiss and ride or bus feeders.
Bus based rapid transit will still require its own right of war if it is not to be choked off by traffic congestion and events such as Indy give a whole new definition to the word congestion.
The Cold Coast Council wants to have a best standard transit system buts does not want to face the practicalities of the situation but wants to be seen to be doing something but do it on the cheap and have someone else foot the bill,
They want the Australian taxpayers to foot the bill rather than the residents of the coast.
Your thoughts on this one will be of interest.
Cheers

Offline mrciclismo

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 02:43:57 PM »
I agree mufreight, light rail is the best option with buses used to feed the light and heavy rail.  Buses should be kept off the busy roads and should be used for whht they do best i.e. feed these heavier and more efficient modes of transport.  Our politicians don't have the courage to make the decisions that will be of benefit in the longer term, they just make politically expedient decisions but want to appear to be doing the right thing.  Perth in WA has an excellent transport system and guess what, they are also looking at re-introducing light rail.  But then they have a progressive infrastructure minister, don't they......

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 07:55:31 AM »
From Gold Coast Bulletin click here!

Transit showdown for mayor and minister

Quote
Transit showdown for mayor and minister

Geoff Chambers

02Apr08

MAYOR Ron Clarke is preparing for a showdown with Transport Minister John Mickel next week after it emerged the council could ditch a $100 million promise.

Mr Mickel will walk into a storm when he steps off the plane from Singapore tomorrow after Cr Clarke signalled he would attempt to cut the funding pledge for the controversial $600 million Gold Coast Rapid Transit System.

A transport spokesman last night confirmed Cr Clarke had written to Mr Mickel days after his election win to discuss the future of the project.

"The Minister is out of the country at the moment but he has been informed that the mayor has written to ask for a meeting," he said.

"That meeting will take place as soon as possible when he gets back.

"He was waiting until after the election and electioneering to sit down and speak rationally about the project with whoever won."

Cr Clarke, who is expected to meet with Mr Mickel early next week, said he could no longer see value in the rapid transit project and did not want to waste ratepayers' money.

As the new chairman of a special budget committee, Cr Clarke and his supporters are in a position to get enough votes to axe the funding following the departures of rapid transit supporters Ray Hackwood and Rob Molhoek.

"The actual cost of the project is inflated and it will be more than the $650 million, and frankly I think that the money could be better spent on other transport," said Cr Clarke. "I will get my first look at what we can do with the budget later this week. Once I see that report I will be able to target what we need."

TransLink staffers working on the project have spent years and millions of dollars organising the feasibility studies and consultation on the rapid transit system.

The rapid transit proposal was criticised last year after it appeared dozens of properties would be resumed in the heart of Surfers Paradise and Southport to make way for the system.

"The money that has been promised could be spent on more buses or other transport infrastructure," said Cr Clarke.

When quizzed about his pre-election promise to build a tunnel under Surfers Paradise, Cr Clarke categorically ruled out tunnels.

"There will not be a tunnel in the budget. A tunnel would be a long-term plan but that is something for the State Government to fund, not the council," he said.

"We can't afford a tunnel."

It was the second straight election that Cr Clarke had pledged to oversee the construction of a tunnel to relieve the transport gridlock.

TransLink is conducting planning and feasibility studies for the first route, running from Helensvale rail station to Southport.

It is expected Option 2 through Parkwood to Griffith University along Smith Street will be preferred over the original option via Harbour Town.

Mr Mickel will receive the final business plan on the rapid transit system project by the middle of this year.

That report will decide whether the system will operate light rail or rapid buses.

If the council pulls its funding, the Bligh Government could push ahead with the system, the cost of which has been tipped to blow to more than $1 billion.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2008, 06:48:04 AM »
There is a very disturbing comment in this article.  Can you spot it?
It will condemn the Gold Coast to a long term sustainable mass transit poor future.

From Gold Coast Bulletin click here!

Feud puts brakes on rapid plan

Quote
Feud puts brakes on rapid plan

Geoff Chambers

05Apr08

MAYOR Ron Clarke and Transport Minister John Mickel have not spoken for months as their feud threatens to derail the rapid transit system.

The pair's relationship is at an all-time low after their crisis meeting was postponed.

The pair's war of words continued yesterday as they remained at loggerheads over the future of the $600 million Gold Coast rapid transit system.

Cr Clarke last night refused to rule out axing the city's $100 million contribution to the system.

Cr Clarke said the State Government was engaged in cloak and dagger activities, hiding crucial elements of the final TransLink report.

"I can't see how they can tell council they are waiting for our decision when they are the ones who have been stalling at every step," said Cr Clarke.

"We want to see the business case for the rapid transit system and only when we see it will we decide whether it is money best spent for Gold Coasters."

Cr Clarke has copped criticism from Mr Mickel for leading an anti-rapid transit system push.

Cr Clarke said he had not received any personal correspondence from Mr Mickel about the project.

"He communicates through other channels but I've had no phone call to my office," he said.

"They can put whatever sugar coating they like on this but there are some very legitimate concerns and complaints about the consultation process and they need to be urgently addressed by the minister."

Mr Mickel yesterday said his hands were tied until the council committed its long-term support.

"I will meet with them. I need to know what the council is thinking and not just the Mayor's thoughts," said Mr Mickel.

"The transport issue on the Gold Coast needs urgent attention. I'm not in favour of either rapid bus or light rail, though there is a compelling argument for the buses option."

A Transport spokesman said Mr Mickel would have to schedule the meeting.

"The minister has a busy week but he does want to sit down to hear council's view. He is away on Monday and has meetings on Wednesday so that leaves him little scope to organise a meeting," he said.

The meeting will be held at Mr Mickel's office in Brisbane.

Combined Gold Coast Chambers of Commerce president John Preston, who has been in close consultation with TransLink, said the system was far from perfect and required more public consultation.

"To strengthen effective consultation on the existing proposal, the chamber believes that it has become necessary to table its expectations of what this proposal should deliver in the short and long term," said Mr Preston.

Mr Preston said he wanted Mr Mickel to expand the brief, allowing additional engagement with council.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2008, 10:19:40 AM »
From Gold Coast Bulletin click here!

Transit talks fast-tracked by minister

Quote
Transit talks fast-tracked by minister

Peter Gleeson

09Apr08

TRANSPORT Minister John Mickel wants to know the thoughts of the Gold Coast City Council -- not necessarily Ron Clarke -- when he sits down with the mayor later this month to discuss the future of the controversial rapid transit system.

A spokesman for Mr Mickel has said a meeting was being arranged between the minister and Cr Clarke, at the mayor's request, and it would be held on April 22.

"The minister is interested in what Cr Clarke has to say, but equally he's interested in what the whole of council thinks on the issue," said the spokesman. "Nobody has made the minister aware of any resolution from council which opposes what is proposed."

The future of the rapid transit system remains clouded after Cr Clarke indicated last week he wasn't sure about a rapid transit system.

"The actual cost of the project is inflated and it will be more than the $650 million, and frankly I think that the money could be better spent on other transport," Cr Clarke told The Bulletin.

"I want to talk about the finalisation of the routes, still existing problems with traffic congestion, but most of all I'd like to see the information on which the business case is being prepared," he said.

But Translink, the Government arm pulling together the project, is going full steam ahead and will decide within three months whether the Gold Coast gets a light rail or rapid bus system.

The city's chamber of commerce lobby group has not given a favoured public option, other than to say the process should be expedited.

Gold Coast Combined Chamber of Commerce president John Preston said the city only had one opportunity to get it right.

"We support a rapid transit system that integrates a whole of city public transport, traffic management and parking strategy," he said.

"It needs to have an east-west public transport to address the needs of customers and workers who travel to Southport, Surfers Paradise and Broadbeach.

"We need to reduce impact on traffic congestion and parking, within the Southport, Surfers Paradise and Broadbeach precincts by establishing park-and-ride facilities bordering the M1 on or near major east-west corridors."

TransLink is conducting planning and feasibility studies for the first route, running from Helensvale rail station to Southport.

It is expected Option 2 through Parkwood to Griffith University along Smith Street will be preferred over the original option via Harbour Town.

Mr Mickel will receive the final business plan on the rapid transit system project by the middle of this year.

That report will decide whether the system will operate light rail or rapid buses.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2008, 07:35:46 AM »
From Gold Coast bulletin click here!

No transit ultimatum from Clarke

Quote
No transit ultimatum from Clarke

Leah Fineran

22Apr08

MAYOR Ron Clarke, pictured right, has denied he will deliver Transport Minister John Mickel an ultimatum on the Gold Coast City Council's $100 million rapid transit funding at their meeting today.

Cr Clarke has previously threatened to withdraw the council's share of the funding of the $650 million project, saying he was no longer convinced it was good value, but after a briefing with TransLink officials last week, Cr Clarke said yesterday he would go to the meeting with an open mind.

Cr Clarke refused to comment further yesterday but said he was attending the meeting at the invitation of the minister and he would not be pushing an agenda.

Backing up Cr Clarke will be the week-old council rapid transit taskforce made up of city planning boss Ted Shepherd, corporate governance chairman Eddy Sarroff and sustainable city future chairman Peter Young.

Cr Clarke said the taskforce would better represent the the views of the council and the city.

The taskforce had a private briefing with TransLink officials last week to hear the latest updates.

Formation of the group came after Mr Mickel asked to hear the views of more councillors than just the Mayor.

The minister, the Mayor and council chairpersons are expected to discuss issues around the project's business case, the proposed Helensvale route, resumptions and project timelines.

The northern route, Helensvale to Broadbeach, remains the key bugbear for the council and local action groups, who fear it will cause more traffic woes than it eases and be under-used.

TransLink is studying the planning and feasibility of the first route from Helensvale rail station to Southport.

It is expected Option Two through Parkwood to Griffith University along Smith Street will be preferred over the original option via Harbour Town.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2008, 03:46:28 PM »
Minister for Transport, Trade, Employment and Industrial Relations
The Honourable John Mickel

Tuesday, April 22, 2008

Minister and Mayor agree Rapid transit project remains on track

Transport Minister John Mickel met with Gold Coast Mayor Ron Clarke and members of the Gold Coast City Council rapid transit taskforce today to discuss the future of the important rapid transit project.

After much community speculation about the future of the project Minister Mickel was eager to sit down with task force members Mayor Clarke, Councillors Young, Sarroff and Shepherd to address any issues concerning the rapid transit project and the State Government's partnership with Gold Coast City Council.

Both parties emerged from the meeting happy with proceedings and ready to continue working together to deliver what will be a landmark public transport project for the Gold Coast.

"I think we can all be happy with the outcome of the meeting, Minister Mickel said. The council is a valued and active partner and their continued support and commitment to the project is certainly appreciated."

"The meeting reaffirmed that it is business as usual for the rapid transit project. The ongoing planning and investigation will continue as the project prepares for completion of the business case" Mayor Clarke said.

The Mayor was assured that the concerns of the people and property owners along the potential routes are being considered and addressed within the business case, as are the complimentary transport systems through the city as part of an integrated network.

Minister Mickel said today was the first time he and Mayor Clarke have had an opportunity to meet and discuss the project since the local council elections held in March.

"The rapid transit system is one of the city's most important projects and it is our duty to make informed decisions on behalf of the community,? he said.

?Council are committed to the project and we look forward to reviewing the business case when it is finalised later in the year,? Mayor Clarke said.

The Gold Coast Rapid Transit (GCRT) project is a Queensland Government transport project being delivered by TransLink in partnership with Gold Coast City Council.

This project will deliver a transport system that is fast, frequent, reliable and integrated with the existing transport network to ensure it meets the needs of the Gold Coast community.

Stage 1 of the GCRT system will link Helensvale to Broadbeach passing through Griffith University, (with the actual route to be finalised) the new Gold Coast University Hospital, Southport central business district and Surfers Paradise.

April 22, 2008
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline stephenk

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
  • Location: Land of reality
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2008, 07:40:37 AM »
OK, silly idea of the week here....

I'm not usually a fan of monorails, as there are usually more practical ways of achieving the same transportation purpose. However, given the Gold Coast's image, maybe a monorail might fit in. It could be built above existing rights of way, and wouldn't get stuck in traffic. I'm not talking about a theme park monorail here such as the one in Sydney, but a Japanese (and now Malaysian) style monorail such as:-
Hitachi
http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/monorail_system/overview/index.html
Scomi
http://www.scomi.com.my/core/energy_monorail.asp
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2007 - 7tph
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
* departures from Central between 16:30 and 17:30.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2008, 09:21:39 AM »
Monorail is very touristy for sure. But the population pressures on the Gold Coast Rapid Transit will be huge, for that reason and for sustainability light rail will met all objectives.

Bus rapid transit will not be able to carry the loads that light rail will.

We also have the looming problem of fuel shortages.

High capacity monorail is not proven although is a lot more attractive than bus rapid transit for the coast for sure.

Sadly, they (QT/Translink/Government) will probably go for bus rapid transit and condemn the Gold coast to a transport poor future down the track so to speak.  Although I would like to be surprised!

High capacity monorail would be better than the bus.  Many parts of the world are moving back to high capacity light rail as it is the proven performer.

Thanks for the links, very interesting.

Regards
Bob
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 09:27:39 AM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline dwb

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1924
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2008, 01:13:21 PM »
Advanced light rapid transit ALRT has recently been chosen as the technology of choice for one of Translink Vancouver's newest lines - the evergreen line. http://translink.bc.ca/Projects/default.asp
It is driverless and above ground and would have several advantages over traditional light rail, however would also not lead such a positive urban design outcome at ground level which is very important.
I know this site is RAIL back on track, but I don't think busways should be underestimated - the success of the South East busway COULD NOT have happened with rail or light rail, particularly at such a low cost and implemented portion by portion. Feeder buses to rail may work well in high density areas, but they don't seem to function particularly well where they already exist in SEQ.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2008, 02:15:07 PM »
The south east busway is already suffering severe bus congestion at peak.
We simply cannot keep throwing more and more buses at an ever increasing failure to transport bus passengers. (1200 full buses last month in BT alone). There won't be enough room on the roads soon.

Time for the big decisions.  The line to Mandurah in Perth is already carrying three times more than the buses were.

Great shame the original light railway proposal wasn't pushed through. The Mater Hill bus station was the only one built for possible upgrade to the light rail before they went on the cheap.

My guess is the INB will soon be at capacity as well.

Busways have their place but for better capacity for the long haul and sustainability light rail is needed.

 ::)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 02:36:41 PM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2008, 11:09:01 AM »
Minister for Transport, Trade, Employment and Industrial Relations
The Honourable John Mickel
28/05/2008

Rapid transit system to boost east-west bus services

The State Government is serious about tackling congestion on the roads and improving public transport.

On the Gold Coast a number of measures are being implemented including bus priority/high occupancy vehicle lanes and more frequent and improved bus and rail services alongside the Gold Coast Rapid Transport system.

Minister for Transport John Mickel said projections of future traffic congestion on the Gold Coast showed action needs to be taken.

"The rapidly increasing population, the low use of public transport on the Gold Coast, the spiralling cost of fuel and pressure on an already congested road system means people will look to public transport to get around the city," Mr Mickel said.

TransLink is rolling out improvements to bus connections to Coomera, Helensvale, Nerang and Robina railway stations and introducing new services in the faster growing areas.

"Nearly completed bus priority lanes on Frank Street and Smith Street will improve the reliability of the local bus services as they won't be competing with traffic and congestion.

"The construction of bus priority lanes from Broadbeach to Burleigh Heads will see commuters on the southern end of the Gold Coast benefiting from bus services that get priority on the road system," he said.

"In the next 12 months bus service improvements are also planned between Southport to Helensvale including a review of service frequency and hours of operation.

"Under a broad vision to meet the city's demand for public transport, the Gold Coast Rapid Transit system will be integrated with cross-city bus services and network improvements," Mr Mickel said.

"When the rapid transit system is introduced, bus services currently operating along the outlined route will be freed up for new east-west services and to boost the frequency of existing cross-city routes.

"As the city's population continues to grow, a fast, frequent and reliable public transport system is a must for the whole region and not just the coastal areas.

"The rapid transit system is part of a broader vision for a truly integrated public transport network on the Gold Coast," Mr Mickel said.

Under TransLink's integrated transport plan, service operating hours will be extended, routes modified and travel times cut for those living in areas not directly serviced by the rapid transit system.

For further information, visit www.translink.com.au/gc_rapidtransit or call 1800 967 377.

May 28, 2008

==============================================================
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline mufreight

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3026
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2008, 02:14:58 PM »
It would seem from the crafted spin in the ministers press release that the Gold Coast is going to be stuck with a bus oriented transit system and not get the much needed light rail, but will they be able to afford to operate it in five years in terms of fuel costs and emissions, so much for the publicly espoused concerns of fuel costs and greenhouse effects.
Now if we could harness all the hot air and spin by the minister and Translink, we might have an ecologicaly sound and sustainable alternative source of energy for this bus oriented transit system.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2008, 03:11:46 PM »
Not necessarily.  I think it might be just paving the way for a high capacity, environmentally sustainable mass transit light rail?

The emphasis seems to be feeding the rapid transit with  east - west buses?

Light rail will give the capacity that will be needed.

 ???

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2008, 04:35:00 AM »
From Gold Coast Bulletin click here!

Ron's tunnel a rapid solution

Quote
Ron's tunnel a rapid solution

Geoff Chambers

21Jun08

THE Gold City Council could pull the plug on the $100 million funding for the rapid transit system and put the money into tunnels.

Mayor Ron Clarke has told The Bulletin that his dream of a tunnel underneath Surfers Paradise is not impossible.

Cr Clarke has promised Gold Coasters road tunnels since he first ran for office in 2004.
 
But four years later nothing has eventuated as TransLink finalise its business case, which will be presented to the State Government early next month.

TransLink briefed councillors last night about the status of the $1 billion rapid transit system.

Cr Clarke said he would consider slugging Gold Coast motorists and increasing the transport levy to bankroll new options.

"Rapid transit is not the be all and end all. My concern right now is to keep it as it is. How many jams will there be before rapid transit is built," said Cr Clarke.

"There will be a lot of pain for businesses in Southport and Surfers Paradise, along Scarborough Street and Nerang Street.

"People are very keen on rapid transit but it's actually going to hold up a lot more people."

Cr Clarke said the Government must look for a new solution.

"The best solution is what the State Government did with Brisbane and that is to provide tunnels," he said.

"I'd welcome them coming to us and saying that through those busy areas let's get in there and get a tunnel built."

Cr Clarke said tunnels would cause minimal interference with traffic compared with an above-ground rapid transit system.

"At the present time they're not spending enough money to do what needs to be done," he said.

"It's a half pregnant type of situation.

"Council hasn't got the money that the State Government has but we would be interested in looking at putting in more but only after we know the costings and being satisfied that we are getting value for money."

TransLink has sent out invitations to media and stakeholders to attend a final briefing session next Wednesday before the business case is delivered.

The briefing will include a presentation by project manager Tim Poole and transactional manager Tim Crane.

Transport Minister John Mickel will then be handed the business case for the first stage of the transit system from Helensvale to Broadbeach. Cabinet will make a decision before the end of next month to determine whether the system will be serviced by light rail or rapid bus.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 04:38:20 AM »
Tunnels would cost billions and billions, particularly in view of the water tables and so forth.

It is obvious what is needed - high capacity, sustainable electric light rail.  It is the perfect situation for that mode.  Fed by east - west lateral feeder buses.

They blew it big time in the 1960s when the rail corridors where lost.  Let's hope they don't blow it again ....

 ???
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 04:43:20 AM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline stephenk

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
  • Location: Land of reality
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2008, 08:31:03 AM »
Advanced light rapid transit ALRT has recently been chosen as the technology of choice for one of Translink Vancouver's newest lines - the evergreen line. http://translink.bc.ca/Projects/default.asp
It is driverless and above ground and would have several advantages over traditional light rail, however would also not lead such a positive urban design outcome at ground level which is very important.

Whilst elevated structures are not always the most attractive, they do have the advantage that the supports can run along the median strip in roads, and not reduce the numbers of lanes for cars. For much of the Gold Coast Transit route I don't think an elevated structure would be too intrusive. Busways, and surface light rail would reduce the number of car lanes. Underground tunnels are likely to be problematic and expensive on the Gold Coast due to the water table and geology.

There are of course many options for elevated light rail systems. There are proven fully segregated driverless systems such as Siemen's VAL, and Bombardier ART. Then there are driven light rails systems (now where is that forum member with a tram train obsession?) which could be elevated where required, and at surface level at locations where elevation is not required/wanted. There is also the option of fully segregated driverless monorails, with either above beam systems such as those from Hitachi and Scomi, or suspended systems such as those from Mitsubishi. I quite like the monometro idea ( http://www.monometro.com/ ) as it has a very inobtrusive structure compared to other elevated options.
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2007 - 7tph
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
* departures from Central between 16:30 and 17:30.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2008, 08:48:29 AM »
When I was in Kuala Lumpur a few years ago the aerial light rail system there was working well.

More info  Kelana Jaya Line

I agree Stephen, aerial options should be considered.

 ;)
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline dwb

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1924
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2008, 06:22:31 PM »
The point is that the Gold Coast Rapid Transit project should to more than just move people, it should be the spine of a new network of communities... if it is up in the air in the middle of the road it can't do that and you have all sorts of issues with lifts and bridges and people accessing the station from the middle of the road.

Offline stephenk

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
  • Location: Land of reality
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2008, 10:50:06 PM »
The point is that the Gold Coast Rapid Transit project should to more than just move people, it should be the spine of a new network of communities... if it is up in the air in the middle of the road it can't do that and you have all sorts of issues with lifts and bridges and people accessing the station from the middle of the road.

Elevated transit works pretty well in many other cities of different sizes - Lille, Rennes, Chicago, New York, Las Vegas, Kuala Lumpur, Tokyo, Osaka, Hiroshima, Bangkok, London (DLR), Vancouver, Santiago, Taipei, and many more. 

If the elevated stations have good architecture, then it can really add to the cityscape and look of a city. It also provides an alternative and safer method of crossing roads for pedestrians.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 10:53:39 PM by stephenk »
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2007 - 7tph
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
* departures from Central between 16:30 and 17:30.

Offline dwb

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1924
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2008, 12:04:01 PM »
New York - components of the elevated subway are proposed to be turned into parklands... and there are significant CPTED issues with many parts of the network underneath the elevated route, and on stations [CPTED = Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design]

Santiago - I've used this system and most of the inner city bits are actually subterranean, it only is above ground on the outskirts of the city.

Vancouver - you didn't mention this one, but at grade light rail is seen to have many advantages over the expense of skytrain, although yes the Canada Line is being built with components as elevated track.

Las Vegas - I'd like to know how many residents actually use this system, seems like a bit of a gimmick for the tourists/ gamblers... GC system needs to be for locals as much as tourists.

Chicago - The L is loved and hated in Chicago, but like NY it has immense issues on public spaces in the city in terms of shadowing, visual obstruction etc....

Using many of these examples as case studies would actually reinforce my point, they may prove "efficient" in terms of transport, but in overall contribution to the city, the urban design, to people's lives this is not enough.  These solutions really need to consider how they are impacting on streetscapes, businesses (at grade proves better economics bc people get on and off and buy things), residents, etc.

Offline Skeetbris

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2008, 11:58:26 PM »
Just one little point has been bugging me about the arguments used by the car lobby about road space being taken up by light rail or bus lanes, it may seem dumb to you and I'm not having a go at anyone. But if the road space is so precious to them then how can they explain the continued existence of kerbside parking on major arterial roads in SEQ, particularly in Brisbane? Along with other similarly unpopular measures like a congestion tax and other moves to cut the numbers of vehicles in the Brisbane CBD in particular. There are many roads that could do with at least a 12-15 hour clearway  (or longer) like they have in other cities. If the streets are "too narrow" for light rail, then surely that argument must also hold true of parked cars taking up valuable traffic lanes, not just during the peak periods. How many times has the Gateway been a carpark this week, that then impacts on the rest of the city. It is just that I haven't seen the obvious question raised or am I missing the double standards? :-w
Brisbane needs an integrated light and heavy rail system now.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2008, 06:29:32 PM »
From Gold Coast Bulletin click here!

Clarke doubts federal transit funding

Quote
Clarke doubts federal transit funding

Geoff Chambers

04Jul08

MAYOR Ron Clarke yesterday welcomed possible federal funding for the $1.67 billion rapid transit system but was sceptical of it arriving.

Earlier this week, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said public transport would play a central role in tackling climate change.

Mr Rudd said it was 'time to act' on public transport, and signalled the Federal Government would get involved.

"Ask yourself this question, how much do people waste each week sitting in unnecessary traffic queues?" he said.

"And how much ... do they put into the environment in terms of greenhouse gas emissions because we have yet to evolve a large, long-term investment into urban public transport systems, with the national government playing its role as well."

"I think it is time to act."

Mr Rudd also said he would take action on energy efficiency and alternative fuels.

Cr Clarke said he remained sceptical that the Federal Government would step in but said he would welcome the support.

"If they want to help, then of course I'd welcome them with open arms," said Cr Clarke.

"But this isn't new. We've heard that the Gold Coast has been part of federal plans for decades and until I see it, I won't believe it."

Cr Clarke will receive a briefing from TransLink today about the status of the rapid transit project.

The Gold Coast City Council is worried about the project's rising costs after it initially promised to contribute a preliminary $100 million.

The business case, to be handed to Transport Minister John Mickel later this month, is expected to recommend rapid buses over the more expensive light rail system, to save money.

"The Federal Government promised their candidate Eddy Sarroff a $2 billion infrastructure roll-out, so maybe Eddy can help out there," said Cr Clarke.

"We've got to be realistic about this. The project is not the holy grail. It's not going to miraculously fix the problem.

"The Gold Coast was developed virtually as a coastal resort town in the 1950-60s with only the car in mind. It's not feasible to resume prime real estate to put down this system."

Cr Clarke has again pushed Mr Mickel for money towards his bus idea, which would have mini shuttle buses provide a door-to-door service.

"I've just found out that Hervey Bay has received that funding from the state to set-up 'Kan Go' buses."

"I want them here on the Coast. We can trial them at Nerang, Robina, Mudgeeraba or Coomera.

"At the end of the day, Gold Coasters travel 7km trips on average and that's just to go to the shops or down the road. Public transport is just not going to take off here."
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2008, 06:31:56 PM »
Bus rapid transit will be unsustainable and will end up costing a lot more than electric light rail.  Great cities of the world use and will be using light rail.  Guess we are not as smart as we think we are?


Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline stephenk

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
  • Location: Land of reality
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2008, 07:55:11 PM »
Oh dear, the so called "smart state" looks like it's going for another half-baked cost transport solution  :(
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2007 - 7tph
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
* departures from Central between 16:30 and 17:30.

Offline mufreight

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3026
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2008, 08:49:30 AM »
Another case of an unsustainable do it on the cheap response that given the bias toward bus exhibited by Gold Coast Mayor Mr Clarke raises questions as to possible supporting of vested interest rather than the administration of the coast region for the overall benefit of residents.
Bus has its place but long term considering cost, environmental concerns and congestion some form of light rail powered by environmentally friendly non poluting electric power has the capacity to provide a better service.
Buses have their place but in the congestion of the Gold Coast that will increase light rail transit is the only long term sustainable response.
Cheers

Offline jason

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2008, 10:06:40 AM »
I believe that rapid bus service will be more effective than light rail

it will be more responsive, wont bring the whole or part of the system due to accidents or faults

its more cost effective, leaving more money for other public transport projects, hospitals and education

Rapid Bus is used more often than not around the world, India and other cities use it

The only difference is that Developed Countries Like to use Light Rail because of a stigma attached to it, while heavily populate cities use the more cost effective

If buses can do a similar job at a lower cost than thats money well spent

The thing that i am having trouble understanding is that besides the emotional attraction of Light Rail, which i understand, how come more cities around the world have BRT but people here are so attached to the emotional of LRT?

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2008, 11:19:46 AM »
Hi Jason,

Rail back on track is for folks  interested in rail. It is no surprise then that we are interested in rail solutions. Bus has it is place, but as we can see in Brisbane we have already reached capacity limitations.  The real bulk people people mover is rail.  The Gold Coast is a good opportunity for a high capacity light rail system. 

The loss of the rail corridors in the 60s, as pointed out by Minister Mickel rather frequently of late, was another costly blunder "social disaster".
Looks like we will see another.

For example, Manila and Kuala Lumpur both run high frequency high capacity light rail systems, which without would be transport meltdown.  As they are not dependent on oil fuels they are in a much stronger position for the future.  Modern high capacity light rail is not trams running down St Kilda road as such, although in Melbourne trams do a great job and have had some major innovations of late too (eg. platforms, high capacity mu trams). 


With an eye to the future, the other option might be a trolley bus system (electric) to replace the oil/gas buses.  These oil gas fuels are only going to increase significantly in costs, and already a major issue for bus operators.  Electricity will be increasingly produced by sustainable generation options.  Hence it would be sensible to put in place a system that is sustainable for the long term.

I also find it interesting that folks at the ATDB (Bus Australia) have an informed discussion on this topic too. They are bus enthusiasts in the the main and many there realise the advantages of the Light Rail in this case too. (--> ATDB)

My support for light rail in this situation is simply based on these facts:

  • Capacity - high frequency multiple units (3 or 4 car).
  • Sustainability - minimal environmental impacts
  • Longevity - light rail will be running long after the buses have stopped
  • Proven performance and safety

The positive thing about the plan is that at least some attempt is being made to put in place a decent public transport solution be it bus or rail.

Cheers
Bob
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 11:59:51 AM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2008, 02:09:10 PM »
Found this point of view just surfing ..

Interesting reading in view of the present discussion

Bus Rapid Transit - Deficiencies and Defects


Light Rail Cities: What Perth Can Learn  PDF


Dublin Light Rail Project Ireland

=================

From SMH  click here!

In the fight to clear the streets, light rail is streets ahead

Quote
In the fight to clear the streets, light rail is streets ahead

January 13, 2006

Trams on the right routes can free buses for better service, write Garry Glazebrook, Chris Brown and Jeff Angel.
AdvertisementAdvertisement

With its Metropolitan Strategy, the State Government has confirmed that it sees Sydney as back in business as Australia's world city.

Significant growth will occur in the outer suburbs, highlighting the need for the north-west to south-west rail line announced last June, as well as the bus transitways and cross-regional bus initiatives under way. But growth is also anticipated in the central business district and inner suburbs, with 58,000 extra jobs and 50,000 more residents in the City of Sydney alone, plus growth in the inner-eastern, southern and western suburbs.

This will further strain inner Sydney's transport, particularly buses. On a weekday, 7400 State Transit buses drive through the city, causing congestion on key roads and affecting the city's amenity.

Almost 50 government studies have looked at transport in the CBD and inner suburbs and have concluded the most appropriate answer for increased capacity and a better environment is the extension of the light rail system, coupled with rationalising bus routes and giving greater priority to public transport, walking and cycling.

While there is increasing support for this strategy, there has been concern that Sydney's streets are too narrow, or that reintroducing trams will cause traffic chaos. These concerns misunderstand modern light rail. It was always envisaged light rail could be introduced following completion of the Cross City Tunnel. Detailed engineering studies commissioned in 2004 and released this week to the Herald, found a number of key routes between Circular Quay and Central were feasible, including George and Castlereagh streets. The latter carries relatively little through-traffic.

Light rail vehicles provide more capacity than buses, are electrically powered, with no local emissions, quieter, highly accessible and are more compatible with city centre environments than buses. Light rail has also demonstrated an ability to shift people out of cars. British studies found volumes of about 2000 passengers an hour in peak periods were needed for light rail to be cost-effective compared with buses. Other routes, such as Sydney's proposed south-west and north-west rail link, need the capacity and speed of heavy rail.

The study conducted for the City of Sydney identified five potential light rail routes radiating from the CBD to the inner suburbs. These routes took into account bus patronage, potential to unlock residential growth and the physical requirements for light rail. It is not envisaged that there would be trams running down almost every street as was the case when Sydney had one of the world's largest tramways. These days, light rail is usually separated from other road lanes, in many cases uses a separate reservation, receives traffic light priority and in some cases goes underground to avoid car areas. The study also examined how light rail could be linked with buses, trains and ferries. It would free buses for improved services elsewhere.

Light rail is not the solution for all transport problems, but it can play a key role in an integrated system. More than 100 cities worldwide, which have reintroduced trams or built new light rail systems in the past decade, have come to the same conclusion. All operate buses and many operate heavy rail as well.

With Sydney's growth about to pick up after the slowdown of the past couple of years, and with increasing competition for corporate headquarters and international tourism, the need for world-class transport is becoming urgent. Higher petrol prices and concerns about global warming add to the case for action. It can happen now with the right community and political leadership.

Chris Brown is the chief executive of TTF Australia. Jeff Angel is the executive director of the Total Environment Centre. Garry Glazebrook is an urban transport consultant and urban planning lecturer at the University of Technology, Sydney.


« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 05:48:35 PM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline stephenk

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
  • Location: Land of reality
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2008, 05:24:26 PM »
Reasons why bus rapid transit (BRT) is a bad choice:-
1) BRT cannot support the same capacity as  a well implemented light rail, or elevated light metro.
2) BRT often requires larger infrastructure, particularly concerning tunnels, stations, and elevated structures.
3) BRT has longer station dwell times.
4) Light rail is more disabled friendly.
3) Brisbane's SE busway is already saturated with buses to the point at which they often have to queue to get into bus stops. Any future increases in bus frequencies will make this situation worse. Do we want a similar situation on the Gold Coast?
4) Rail is a more attractive public transport option to passengers than buses. Do you think would Melbourne would have as much public transport ridership if buses were run on the same routes instead of trams?
5) Buses can be more expensive to operate (more buses required for same passenger capacity),
6) Buses use more fuel/passenger (friction from rubber tyres), have less efficient engines (internal combustion), and emit fumes.
6) Light rail is likely to be safer than buses. Totally segregated/elevated light metro would be considerably safer.
7) Rail gives a city a better identity than buses.
8 ) Buses get stuck in traffic. If you build a segregated right of way to solve this, then you might as well build light rail?

There are a few advantages of BRT:-
1) Flexible routing - doesn't require feeder services
2) Lower initial investement (attractive to short sighted politicians!)
3) Slightly more flexible infrastructure - steeper gradients (although rubber tyred metro can cope with 10% gradients)

Personally I think that an elevated light metro system (such as VAL, or ART) would be the most effective, but not cheapest option. Cities of less than 1m population in Europe can support multiple metro lines, I'm sure the Gold Coast (which has a reasonably high population density along a fair portion of the route) can support a light metro system!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 07:54:15 AM by stephenk »
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2007 - 7tph
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
* departures from Central between 16:30 and 17:30.

Dean Quick

  • Guest
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2008, 03:05:16 PM »
Well said Stephenk,
                          I am growing tired and frustrated with the currant obsession with buses in this state!! It seems that whenever a long term solution to transport infrastructure is studied a SHORT term solution is decided on purely because of COST!! and Long term sustainability is dismissed.I really hope that light rail is given a chance on the gold coast but my fear is that, once again, the bean counters will choose the easier and cheaper option.

Offline jason

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2008, 08:06:47 PM »
I found the arguement pretty poor, and in response i put the following forward:

1. Melbourne's Yarra Tram had on time running of only 83.58% for June 2008, which is a lot worse than QR and all bus services
2. trams are very limited to servicabilty, unable to travel to where passengers live. brisbane suburban streets are unable to cope with the carriage width
3. trams tracks often have to run down the middle lanes on 4 lane roads, as to accommodate park cars. when this occurs all lanes are often blocked as crs must wait behind cars for passengers to alight.
4. if buses and trams are often of the same vehicle size, why would buses need wider and taller tunnels, wouldn't trams need a larger tunnels as they are based on standard guage rail systems with overhead wires.
5. the vehicle mass of trams are a lot heavier, the bridge from southbank to myer centre would have to be replaced as it cannot structurally support light rail
6. light rail has a higher cost per km,
7. the SE busway will always be saturated, its dillusional to say that it won't be the same with trams, presently 4 buses can occupy and move on independantly as they can move around each other. with trams all services are halted until the first vehicle moves, causing more delays down the line
8. there are standards for disabled access, buses are just as accessible
9. trams are often shut down during intermediate weather
10. trams cannot move around traffic accidents, scheduled works, breakdowns
11. trams cannot be readily deployed to where they are needed,
12. trams are more iconic than buses, but doesn't make them better
13. operation costs should be taken into account whole of business, not just cost per km
14. no city can afford a totally seperated light rail system, there will always be interaction with road and pedestrians, busways are just a segerated as light rail.
15. emmesion from light rail are displaced, because you can't see it doesn't mean its not there, polution from light rail occurs at power stations from coal emmisions

buses have their own problems, but this is why decision are made by experts, because as mentioned by stephenk, too often personal opinions overshadow economics and sustainability

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2008, 06:56:12 AM »
Thanks for your input Jason, always good to read different points of view.

I grew up in Melbourne and visit there regularly.  Melbourne trams run generally in normal street traffic, 83% timetable performance is good under those circumstances.  The Brisbane bus timetable performance is far worse.

I think the cost of fuels will be an important factor in the outcome here. As has been highlighted by the CSIRO this week, petroleum fuel costs will be exhorbitant. 


Fuel for thought
The future of transport fuels: challenges and opportunities

Future Fuels Forum

June 2008

http://www.csiro.au/files/files/plm4.pdf
 
Some quotes of relevance from the above report:

Quote
?The choices Australians make about the size of their vehicle, how much they need to travel and in what mode (e.g. public versus private passenger transport) are likely to be equally as important as the fuel and technology choices that they make in reducing greenhouse gas emissions and their vulnerability to the impacts of higher prices for oil products.

This is important because of the uncertainty that still remains over which future technologies and fuels will proceed to be commercially available at reasonable cost.

The modelling projected that a greater shift toward public transport and lighter vehicles, and increased use of rail and sea freight could reduce kilometres travelled by 30 per cent and greenhouse gas emissions by 17 per cent.?

?Strategies for improving the ability of cities to respond to significant fuel price rises include:

? Expanding the provision of high quality integrated public transport including the targeted extension of
rail services and reconfiguring urban transport networks so that local suburban and circumferential bus services link to rail services. Note, bus services that are capable of using existing road space are likely to provide the fastest response

? Planning for higher urban residential and activity densities and more local services

? Expanding cycle ways and pedestrian infrastructure

? Improved integration of public and non-motorised transport modes

If governments and communities acknowledge the possibility that the dominant form of transport (that is,
the private motorised vehicle) could undergo a sharp decline in affordability in the near future due to a peak in global oil production, there would be greater potential to engage on improving public transport and city planning.?

As we have always put forward, integrated modes best fit for purpose is the way to go.
We will see increasing use of rail, and I believe that the high capacity light rail rapid transit will be the sustainable solution for the Coast, with integrated east west bus feeders.

Anyway, we will all know the out come shortly!

Regards
Bob
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 01:32:23 PM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline stephenk

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
  • Location: Land of reality
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2008, 11:37:30 AM »
Melbourne's Yarra Tram had on time running of only 83.58% for June 2008, which is a lot worse than QR and all bus services
You are comparing a partially unsegregated and ageing tram system with modern more segregated light rail!

Quote
trams are very limited to servicabilty, unable to travel to where passengers live. brisbane suburban streets are unable to cope with the carriage width

We are talking about the Gold Coast here, not Brisbane.

Quote
if buses and trams are often of the same vehicle size, why would buses need wider and taller tunnels, wouldn't trams need a larger tunnels as they are based on standard guage rail systems with overhead wires.

Trams are fixed to the track, thus they have a controlled safety envelope. However buses are not fixed to tracks, and require wider guideways. Also busway stations require 4 lanes for buses to overtake. A tram stop requires just 2. This increases the width of a busway station considerably.
 
Quote
the vehicle mass of trams are a lot heavier, the bridge from southbank to myer centre would have to be replaced as it cannot structurally support light rail


Again, we are discussing the Gold Coast here, not Brisbane. However, given that Brisbane has had a pedestrian bridge open recently, and there is currently a road and another pedestrian bridge under construction, then building a new bridge for light rail in Brisbane isn't exactly impossible!

Quote
light rail has a higher cost per km

Are you referring to construction costs or operating costs? Don't forget that LRT can carry more passengers per km! I have read many sources that operating cost per km per passenger is lower with LRT than BRT.

Quote
there are standards for disabled access, buses are just as accessible

No they aren't. A tram can use a platform with very small gap between the tram and platform. This allows a wheelchair to move easily into the tram. A bus cannot align accurately with a platform. Has to lower itself, and then lower a mechanical ramp for the wheelchair passenger to board. This is time consuming, less safe, and causes very long dwell times.

Quote
trams are more iconic than buses, but doesn't make them better

The Gold Coast thrives on the tourist market. An iconic transport system would be a plus for tourism. Apart from London, how many cities are famous for their buses? None.
Also, "light rail has a stronger image, and is more popular and attracts more rider" *, plus " LRT vehicles are more spacious and comfortable and have better riding quality than buses" *.

Quote
no city can afford a totally seperated light rail system, there will always be interaction with road and pedestrians, busways are just a segerated as light rail.

The design of the individual system affects the level of segregation. Light rail can become completely segregated, which  effectively means it becomes a metro system!

Quote
emmesion from light rail are displaced, because you can't see it doesn't mean its not there, polution from light rail occurs at power stations from coal emmisions

The pollution may be displaced, but light rail still has approximately 50% less energy consumption per seat km than single decker bus *. The displacement of pollution is also better for the city environment. Light rail also produces less noise pollution than buses *

* reference Urban Transit Systems & Technology, V.R.Vuchic, Wiley, 2007.


Despite my argument here, I still personally think the Gold Coast deserves an elevated light metro system - along the lines of Siemens VAL, Bombardier ART. It would be far from the cheapest option initially, but would offer significantly faster and frequent journeys, would ultimately have a higher capacity, would be more attractive to the public, and improve the image of the Gold Coast to tourists.
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2007 - 7tph
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
* departures from Central between 16:30 and 17:30.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2008, 01:16:04 PM »
From Gold Coast Bulletin click here!

Quote
Mickel steamrolls transit 'fearmongers'


An image from a series of 3D animation clips of the future rapid transit system
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/images/uploadedfiles/editorial/pictures/2008/07/11/transitWEB.jpg


Leah Fineran

July 12th, 2008

TRANSPORT Minister John Mickel has steamrolled rapid transit system critics, announcing the project will go ahead despite anger from Southport business leaders.

Mr Mickel told the Gold Coast Combined Chambers of Commerce yesterday he was sick and tired of fear-mongering from detractors, and that the city should be grateful for the $1.67 billion joint State Government and council commitment.

"The easiest thing we could do is to take this funding away," he said.

"There are a lot of places that would love this money but there are few places that lend themselves so beautifully to an integrated system like the Gold Coast.

"But despite calls from detractors, this system will go ahead -- it is essential."

The Minister yesterday launched a series of 3D animation clips of the future rapid transit route and alignment through Southport and Broadbeach.

It reignited anger from Southport Chamber of Commerce members who accused him of ignoring their concerns of parking, visual amenity and route location.

Southport Chamber president Luke Preston said he feared the Government had stopped listening to locals.

"We are justly concerned that the future of Southport will be worse with the rapid transit system," he said.

The Minister said the chamber had been given every chance for consultation but promised a last-ditch meeting in August.

"There is an issue in Southport that the local chamber of commerce has raised with us and I am still prepared to listen," he said.

"We are not dismissing the public's concerns but to retrofit infrastructure into a constrained area will mean impacts."

Soaring fuel prices were highlighted at the meeting as another sign that a rapid transit system was the only answer to our traffic woes.

"The rising cost of fuel has driven people into public transport solution and the numbers are only going to increase, so if we build it, they will come," said Mr Mickel.

"We know that by 2011 parts of this city will be completely congested and the only solution for that is a passenger transport system."

Mayor Ron Clarke welcomed the Minister's commitment and said he was confident about the project remaining on time and on track.

"I do still believe the Southport Chamber of Commerce concerns have validity but I think there will have to be compromise from both parties," he said.

TransLink is expected to present the business case to the State Government and the Gold Coast City Council by early August at the latest.

Mr Mickel remained tightlipped about a decision between light rail or rapid buses.

"I have heard excellent arguments from both sides and the only significant difference between the two is that buses bring more versatility but light rail has a longer shelf life," he said.

Mr Mickel squashed questions about future plans for monorail or tunnels.

"For once and all I must say that monorail is too expensive and would be a visual nightmare," he said. "And tunnelling under Surfers Paradise would be tunnelling into a swamp."

The animation clips can be viewed on the Bulletin's website, goldcoast.com.au or at www.translink.com.au/gc-rapidtransit.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline haakon

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 172
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2008, 08:47:21 PM »
Swamp? The Minister is being to generous in his assessment I think.

Offline jason

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2008, 11:52:48 PM »
hi stephenk

i have read your reply, and a bit amused by your comments.

If you are going to quote Brisbane's South East Busway in your original arguement and Melbourne's Trams, then when people are going to reply, that will reply on the same basis.

The whole arguement whether it be Brisbane or Gold Coast still applies.

Your point regarding trams being a safer form of transport is true, as it removes the variable of road space to a fixed track, but ultimately it comes down to the driver and other road users. Insurance Agencies do note that cities with trams have considerably high number of vehicle small accident claims with pubic transport vehicles.

On some of your rebuttle points:
1. The current plans don't provide a fully segregated travel path, often sharing or crossing a vehicle roads;
2. Your point regarding buses requiring a larger envelope has some truth, but failed to note the actual width of vehciles and overhead equipment. Also you note that busways require 4 lanes at stations, when trams only require 2. This brings me back to congestion down the line when trams ahead are at stations, following vehicles are held up as well. Under the same assumption then busways could only require 2 lanes as per trams, hence reducing construction costs as well could they not;
3. I was refering to construction costs. In regards to operating costs there seems to be a number of variables depending on which report. I am amused by different reports on what they believe and what they take into account as operational costs. One report I read didn't include maintenance for vehicles. A lot of proposals, and it was the same with the BRT purposal, withheld different costs to make their proposals more appealing;
4. I don't see the problem with having a mechanical mechanism for aid for disabled access. Australian Standards  specify what is acceptable. If you want to draw straws one could argue that a mechanical ramp with no gap is better than the small gap between fixed platfrom and tram door;
5. Of course LRT is a more comfortable and spacious ride the buses, but that goes back to my point about about requiring a larger envelope for tunnels, so does LRT have a larger envelope than buses now?
6. On the subject of iconic buses, depends who you talk to. A lot would argue that the American Yellow School buses are iconic.
7. We have gone from LRT system to Metro, I must have missed that point somewhere along the line. Which discussion paper was this in?
8. Are you comparing Coal from power station with CNG or desiel? Also have you taken into account the polution produced to provide 24hour electricity to a system wide tram network 24000V, compared to individual power supply as needed.
9. With most of SE QLD power supply being sorced from Swan Bank, being situated so close to Brisbane and the Gold Coast, pollution from here will still end in the Gold Coast and Brisbane due to its proximity.

All in all, each method has its advantages and disadvantages. Public tranport will always play catch up as no govt is going to spend money on future provisions as its economically impossible, as money is always needed else where.

I personally love the idea of trams, and i am at the end of the year off for a working holiday to USA and Canada to study public transport system in New York, Washington DC, LA, Boston and Toronto.

Many cities have implemented quality tram network systems, and depending on what bench marks you compare its impossible to compare. As OzBob says 83% on time is very reasonable.

My major concern with with any fixed track system is the lack of flexibility. All it takes is once incident, either it be a police, power failure, signal failure or vehicle break down, and has the potential to bring partial or whole system to a stand still. This is often seen with Train Systems including QR. And when this occurs these vehicles are useless. At least with buses they can avoid accident spots, are individually powered and operated independantly to each other if required. And if trams are brought to a stop, are there going to be enough buses to replace in emergency operations?

There are also other technical issues to consider,
* trams require a wider turning circle to operate at a resonable speed
* buses can turn in a smaller circle, but take more time to complete compare to trams
* trams are a visually more appealing vehicle, zero pollution at vehicle, but require constant overhead power supply. some people see this as visual pollution and are opposed to such wires
* buses are less visually appealing, with emmisions at vehicle, but CNG is a more cost effective, lower running costs than desiel and coal producing sources, and produces less pollution than both.

The reason why BRT was chosen over LRT is complex, and takes into account more issues than raised here. As a planner and an economist i can understand where the decision was made and i agree with it.

As a rail enthusiast i would have preferred LRT as like you said, more appealing than buses

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100964
    • RAIL Back On Track
Gold Coast Light Rail
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2008, 06:41:32 PM »
From ABC News click here!

Forum says light rail an obvious choice for Gold Coast

Quote
Forum says light rail an obvious choice for Gold Coast

A group representing the tourism and transport sectors says the spiralling cost of fuel makes light rail an obvious choice for the Gold Coast rapid transit system.

The Queensland Government is still deciding whether to use light rail or rapid buses on the Helensvale to Coolangatta route.

Stewart Prinz from the Tourism and Transport Forum says the tightening economic climate makes light rail a more practical choice.

"More people will be looking to travel at home with the increased cost of fuel so the Gold Coast needs to be providing something which will attract domestic tourists," he said.

"It also needs to be providing something that will enable people to move around without relying on the motor car."

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 


“You can't understand a city without using its public transportation system.” -- Erol Ozan