Article: Rail jobs lost, and more to go

[colinw]

Fraser Coast Chronicle:Rail jobs lost, and more to go

THE WORST fears of Maryborough rail manufacturers have been realised, with Bombardier confirming it has been forced to sack 22 workers.

The job losses last week came after months of speculation that work would dry up for Bombardier and Downer EDi, when Queensland Rail failed to sign another contract for 38 trains — instead rolling its future orders into a $3.2 billion, 200-train tender that will be contested internationally.

But in another blow to workers, a Bombardier spokesperson said the redundancies would not be the last, unless the situation turned around.

"Production of the current Queensland Rail suburban passenger train contract will be completed by the end of 2011, and due to the nature of the manufacturing process unfortunately work force reduction needs to commence," the spokesperson said.

"More job losses throughout 2011 are planned unless workload increases."

Federal member for Wide Bay Warren Truss said he was dismayed the Queensland Government was prepared to dishonour a commitment to buy 38 trains worth $380 million — a contract that could save the jobs of about 100 workers.

"I am horrified that the Bligh Labor Government would break its budget promise and risk local jobs when it knows how important the rail industry is to the battling Fraser Coast economy," Mr Truss said.

"We want productive jobs, not people on welfare payments. Those 22 families will be left without income, so they will not stay in Maryborough waiting to see if we get the $3.2 billion tender."

State member for Maryborough Chris Foley said he was planning an urgent private meeting with Treasurer Andrew Fraser, asking him to consider sending the 38-train contract back to Maryborough.

"It's not a net-saving for government to roll those trains in with the bigger contract," he said.

"All it does is replace wages that come from private enterprise, which doesn't cost the taxpayer, with people on unemployment benefits, which does cost the taxpayer."

[#Metro]

Unfortunately jobs move (note the word move, not loss).
Why there is no booming rail industry in this state is a bit puzzling given the extent of the CityTrain system and the importance of rail for moving coal and so on.
I think though that international tendering is the right way to go though.
The trains should be much cheaper that way too.

[mufreight]

Unfortunately jobs move (note the word move, not loss).
Why there is no booming rail industry in this state is a bit puzzling given the extent of the CityTrain system and the importance of rail for moving coal and so on.
I think though that international tendering is the right way to go though.
The trains should be much cheaper that way too.

They could also be junk built to a lower standard and for a shorter life span that what is built localy      

[#Metro]

They could be, but they also might not be. Many rail systems overseas use rollingstock or componentry purchased from elsewhere or are
manufactured on machines that are imported. I take it that Brisbane's buses are imported as kits and motors etc are imported as is the fuel etcetera  and are assembled here?

It is the responsibility of the Government and whoever is tending to realise and make the judgement on which or who provides
the best cost-perfomance package. Cost is only one dimension, like you point out. But it is not necessarily true that higher cost
is higher quality, and the reverse of that is also true.

A decision like this IMHO should never be legislated so that orders automatically go to a particular firm. It must be remembered
that there are rail suppliers overseas too that have an equal claim to manufacturing things and will also lose jobs if they too
do not get orders or if favouristic purchasing requirements are instituted.

[Stillwater]

Legislated?  No.  You have a tender process that treats everyone equally.  Tenderers must be pre-qualified and you may consider introducing a preference for Australian-owned or Queensland businesses (say 5% of the tendered price), and you may require that certain skills be fostered in Australia so as to maintain capacity for the eventuality of war.  Set the engineering parameters of the job and get quotes that are evaluated so as to compare like with like.  But legislate??  You may as well go back to the days of Commonwealth Engineering.

[colinw]

Is there any reason to think that Bombardier / Downer EDI would not be competitive in an open tender anyway?

Their 3'6" multiple units certainly have a very good record in service both here and in Perth.

I'm inclined to just watch and see what happens.  Can't really say much more as my employer has a joint venture with one of their competitors, so I'd best not comment on any of the opinions posted above.

[Stillwater]

Exactly.

As taxpayers, we are defacto 'shareholders' in a company, namely the government.  Shareholders want maximum return on their investment, so do taxpayers.  Competitive tendering is one way governments demonstrate value for money.

But legislating?    

[#Metro]

The job losses last week came after months of speculation that work would dry up for Bombardier and Downer EDi, when Queensland Rail failed to sign another contract for 38 trains — instead rolling its future orders into a $3.2 billion, 200-train tender that will be contested internationally.

200 trains! It's QR, not QR National so I am thinking that these are for the suburban network? Maybe TUZ is coming!
Maybe we should say something about three doors please, lest they order 100 six car trains with only two doors!

"We want productive jobs, not people on welfare payments. Those 22 families will be left without income, so they will not stay in Maryborough waiting to see if we get the $3.2 billion tender."

One of the reasons behind the design of the welfare system and why it operates is to allow the economy to operate smoothly and businesses to change in response to market conditions. Welfare has a bad name (thanks to Today Tonight or ACA), but it really is important and at times in my life I have had to use it (the latest disaster for example I had to access help). It is there to cover for these eventualities and more so that people have a source of income while they re-skill or find another position. It allows businesses to change and it allows people a guaranteed income for the time they need it.

I understand that this is not what people want to hear, but I am only stating facts, and that is how it was designed and supposed to work.

[Derwan]

This is not news.  Nothing has changed.  The Fraser Coast Chronicle has made it out to be that EDI Rail has "lost" something.  But it's a case that it still hasn't won the tender yet.

Check this post for details.  You will notice the "38 units" mentioned as the first of the "new generation" trains.

That post was just over year ago.  The Fraser Coast is a bit slow. 

[#Metro]

Should we be pushing for 3 door trains? 2 doors are not enough...

[colinw]

200 trains! It's QR, not QR National so I am thinking that these are for the suburban network? Maybe TUZ is coming!
Maybe we should say something about three doors please, lest they order 100 six car trains with only two doors!

As Derwan rightly points out, that figure of 200 has been known for a while.  This is actually a net fleet increase of 120 or so, not 200, as it includes end-of-life replacement for the EMUs. It is a fair bet that the ICE sets will probably retire around that time as well.

You will not see Queensland Rail go to tender until after the State Budget anyway, as there was nothing in the 2010-11 budget for the next block of 38 trains.  There may be a year or two delay, but that is all, as additional trains will be necessary with Springfield coming online in 2013 and Kippa-Ring in 2016, assuming those two projects run on time.

[Stillwater]

Need to take my tape measure along on next trip -- to measure up the mother-in-law's 'retreat'.  ICE toilets means half the bathroom is done. 

[mufreight]

Should we be pushing for 3 door trains? 2 doors are not enough...

Well everyone is entitled to their opinions but the track record of rolling stock with only two doors that is configured to suit the operating conditions has to this time been pretty good in this country even on the Sydney system where the door widths are comparable and the capacity of the carriages is almost double, Perth almost identical rolling stock to here operated at a higher service frequency, Adelaide higher capacity rollingstock with only two doors per carriage.
With the length of journey in terms of time the difference in loading times is negligble as is the increase in carriage capacity but the loss of seating as a consequence of the third vestibule is detrimental to to passenger comfort, the carriages would need to be heavier for the same structural integrity.
The decision on the number of doors has already been made, what it needed is higher frequency of operation and for that there needs be more infrastructure such as CRR, an additional track between Lawnton and Petrie, track amplification between Beerburrum and Nambour provided.
Three doors, well maybe in twenty or so years time on a new dedicated underground system but until then it is just so much banging on an empty drum.

No doubt politics will enter into the argument and the loss of employment in the Marybrough area will affect the next election so it is possible that there may be a rethink or perhaps it is again a politician who has gone along with the government party line decisions who now his seat is threatened by the backlash from those decisions now wants to be seen as doing something while in fact doing nothing in relation to a decision already made to which he raised no objection at the time.
Elequent hot air acomplishes little.     on both counts.      

[somebody]

If EDI are having to lay off staff, couldn't this decision be moved forward?  I thought we were having trouble getting the trains quickly enough, and now we are slowing down.

Well everyone is entitled to their opinions but the track record of rolling stock with only two doors that is configured to suit the operating conditions has to this time been pretty good in this country even on the Sydney system where the door widths are comparable and the capacity of the carriages is almost double, Perth almost identical rolling stock to here operated at a higher service frequency, Adelaide higher capacity rollingstock with only two doors per carriage.

I'd disagree with the point about the Sydney trains having door widths which are comparable.  They are noticeably wider in Sydney and achieve double flow, which isn't really achieved here.  But I've said that before.

Should we be pushing for 3 door trains? 2 doors are not enough...

Haven't we recently had a thread on this one?

[#Metro]

Well everyone is entitled to their opinions but the track record of rolling stock with only two doors that is configured to suit the operating conditions has to this time been pretty good in this country even on the Sydney system where the door widths are comparable and the capacity of the carriages is almost double, Perth almost identical rolling stock to here operated at a higher service frequency, Adelaide higher capacity rollingstock with only two doors per carriage.

Yes, but it doesn't seem like a case to cling to 2 doors. Doesn't Sydney have problems with dwells and hence the padding out of timetables?
Peak hour I can remember a number of times where I had to get up from the middle of the train and it was next to impossible to leave the train, there were so many people on it.

With the length of journey in terms of time the difference in loading times is negligble as is the increase in carriage capacity but the loss of seating as a consequence of the third vestibule is detrimental to to passenger comfort, the carriages would need to be heavier for the same structural integrity.
The decision on the number of doors has already been made, what it needed is higher frequency of operation and for that there needs be more infrastructure such as CRR, an additional track between Lawnton and Petrie, track amplification between Beerburrum and Nambour provided.

http://monash.academia.edu/SelbyCoxon/Papers/202738/The_Effect_of_Suburban_Train_Carriage_Design_Upon_Punctuality_Ingress_and_Egress_Occlusion_and_Passenger_Comfort

The Authors suggest that station dwell times are a significant factor in service punctuality and
are determined by a number of variable factors such as passenger movement through doors, crowding
on board, and the carrying of objects, and that these relate directly to the carriage.

I can understand that people like seats, and the authors point this out, but I have taken many trains with sections where there is longitudinal seating inside and it is not a problem.
During peak hour demand always exceeds supply and the train will be full. In the off-peak, the reverse is true, so most if not all people will have a seat. So I fail to see why it is
so controversial.

Adding an existing carriage (might be hard on current system)
Increase the number and frequency (upgrade signalling)
Changing the seating arrangements to open them up
Double deck trains (not possible in Brisbane)
Track amplification
Wider Doors
Fewer Seats
Seperate boarding and alighting platforms (doesn't seem practical for Brisbane)

Three doors, well maybe in twenty or so years time on a new dedicated underground system but until then it is just so much banging on an empty drum.

The order of new trains represents a rare opportunity to design the carriages in such a way that they are improved and also make it easier for people to get in and out.
These trains could still be running around on the network for the next 30 or 40 years. Regardless of whether or not there is a metro service built in that time (and with
finances such, I doubt it, we can't even build CRR yet!) there will still be the problem of being trapped in the middle of the train. Thus building a separate metro system
is a non-solution because local suburban stations will continue to exist (unless they are shut down, which is highly unlikely and unsupported my me) on the current QR network and passenger numbers will keep growing, regardless. Not only that, it will take many many decades and high cost before that system is even at an extent where it makes an impact
on QR CityTrain. It's a bit like saying running more frequent CityCats and buses on the busway will solve the door problem on QR Citytrain-- it won't because they are logically separate things.

Compared to the costs of building an entirely new system, altering the design/number of doors seems a small price to pay. And such measures would be complimentary to, and not prevent, other measures to increase capacity such as better signalling or (expensive) infrastructure projects.

[#Metro]

Maybe they should do a mock up carriage...

[#Metro]

Found something interesting ---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5359.msg47747#msg47747

[Stillwater]

Farmer Hoggett to babe:  That'll do, pig.  That'll do.

[mufreight]

Well TT here we go again.

Adding an existing carriage (might be hard on current system)

Not hard impractical bordering on imposible, platform lengthering for every station, resignaling almost the entire system, replacement of existing maintenence facilities and stableing facilities.

Increase the number and frequency (upgrade signalling)

Frequency of services, well we all know the story here and we are still pushing for that and it will be an ongoing battle as long as treasury rather than the railways control what rollingstock the operator can obtain.

Changing the seating arrangements to open them up,

There is a limit to what can be gained there without reducing the amenity of travel with the longer distance and transit time of services.

Double deck trains (not possible in Brisbane)

Well nothing more to say on that the reasons are obvious.

Track amplification

More than overdue, there are a number of choke points on the system as it exists one of which is CRR, this forum has clearly espoused the needs here.

Wider Doors

The costs of rebuilding the existing fleet would be prohibitive, new rollingstock, how much wider do they need to be? More a case of education, there is sufficent room for two lines of people the enter or exit through the doors at present but frequently passengers try to use the centre of the doorway.

Fewer Seats

Not a realistic option due the the general utilisation of the rollingstock and the transit times on the longer journeys, a higher frequency of services is a far better option.

Seperate boarding and alighting platforms (doesn't seem practical for Brisbane)

Again impractical, how many houses would need to be resumed and roads relocated to obtain the room for the additional platforms and what could be done in locations such as Roma Street, central and Fortitude Valley where the stations are boxed in and in the case of Central and Fortitude Valley built over.

[#Metro]

Well TT here we go again.

Thanks. All I was doing was noting what measures the paper I referenced discussed as alternative or complimentary measures. I put them up for the forum, not necessarily because I was advocating one or another either which way.

[#Metro]

mufreight, I will reply in the other thread. 

[Gazza]

They could also be junk built to a lower standard and for a shorter life span that what is built localy (Sic)      

The Japanese make some very nice narrow gauge trains though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sobu_E231_Mitaka_20030222.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JREast-E331.jpg

[#Metro]

I have to say, that last image with the red one is very nice.  Replace JR with QR and you have your strawberry themed train! 

Isn't the Japanese economy depressed, maybe there is a good deal to be had. I would love to have a train like that pull up at Roma Street.
Given the huge loads of train passengers carried by Japanese rail systems, I would think reliability is key for them.

[Golliwog]

Bombardier getting desperate would explain the bill board on the wall across from platform 1 at Central, pointing out they make our trains. Trying to get us behind the local.

[Dean Quick]

So they may be cheaper  BIG DEAL!!! Have you all forgotten the trouble Melbourne are having with their CHEAP IMPORTED sets???  They are LEMONS. Brakes that don't work, Air conditioning that doesn't work properly and many other teething issues which have led to extremely long lead in times for commisioning. Then there is the training for the crews and maintainance staff who are all unfamiliar with imported trains. Then you have warranty and spare parts issues that have to come from overseas which will ground sets whilst waiting for parts  If you worked for Bombadier and were very proud of the quality and proven trains that we all enjoy now I think you would be concerned as well that the Gov't has decided to take this ridiculous step. There is no need to look overseas when we have perfectly good/reliable manufacturers here. KEEP IT LOCAL!!!

[Derwan]

So they may be cheaper  BIG DEAL!!! ... KEEP IT LOCAL!!!

I agree totally!  I'm hoping that this is merely an exercise to ensure that EDI is providing the latest and greatest technology at a competitive price.  At the end of the day it'd be worth paying a bit more to support local manufacturers and ensure easy delivery/return as necessary.  I personally think it'd be ridiculous if they source the trains from a different provider.

[Stillwater]

And Downer EDI's other woes don't have a bearing on the Queensland Government's consideration of this matter?

http://www.businessreviewaustralia.com/sectors/manufacturing/what-s-holdup-downer-edi-delays-waratah-trains-railcorp-again

http://www.railexpress.com.au/archive/2010/november/november-10/waratah-delivery-to-go-ahead-as-planned-downer

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/downer-delays-waratah-trains-again-20101208-18ox7.html

[#Metro]

Problems are to do with workmanship and governance, not necessarily where the train came from.
After all, metal is metal, glass is glass, rubber is rubber, and so on- these things do not have nationalities.

How would people feel if Western Australia cancelled their train orders because they didn't want "Queensland" trains.
They are made in the same plant.

[johnnigh]

So, we're all happy for the Canadian multinational to make (assemble) our trains locally? Bombardier (Bom--bar-de-er to give an approximation of the correct pronunciation preferred by the top managers) doubtless look to wherever they can source inputs, so don't assume that a contract for them means Maryborough! and with the aussie battler at the top of its game due to China's demand for coal etc, local production may be hard to justify until China leaves the market and the aussie crashes.

[#Metro]

As long as they do the job. I don't see a problem. So what if they are Canadian.

PS:Bombardier has an office on Coronation Drive.

[Stillwater]

Australia imports bus chassis, fitted out locally.

[johnnigh]

As long as they do the job. I don't see a problem. So what if they are Canadian.

PS:Bombardier has an office on Coronation Drive.

My point, TT, is that there is no difference between them and any other tenderer, except that they (or the predecessor company) happen to have purchased, some little time ago, the Maryborough works when they were privatised.

[colinw]

My point, TT, is that there is no difference between them and any other tenderer, except that they (or the predecessor company) happen to have purchased, some little time ago, the Maryborough works when they were privatised.

Eh? The works in Maryborough always have been private. Walkers Limited, founded in 1868, was one of the major suppliers of locomotives in this state going right back to the 19th century.

My understanding, and I may have this wrong, is that Downer EDI is the end result of mergers that combined Walkers Limited, Evans Deakin Industries, Clyde Engineering and the NZ company Downer Engineering into a single organisation, headquartered in Sydney.

Downer EDI partners with Bombardier (HQ in Montreal, Canada) to produce rollingstock in Australia.

Prior to these mergers, Walkers was in joint venture with the Swedish ABB (Asea Brown Boveri) group, so at various points you had rollingstock coming out of Maryborough badged as Walkers-Asea, Walkers-ABB and Walkers-Adtranz.  At some point Adtranz was broken up and sold off in parts, with its rail business going to Bombardier, so the EDI-Bombardier alliance is actually a continuance of an arrangement that has existed since the first EMUs were built in the 1970s.

The electric rollingstock built in Maryborough since the 1970s has always had a major overseas component.  Initially it was mostly Swedish derived (Asea), but some of the electric locos built for the coalfield electrification were Hitachi derived, as were the tilt trains.
More recently it has been in partnership with Bombardier, which is the successor company to Asea/ABB/Adtranz.

[curator49]

Got in one, err two, err three ColinW

The takeovers, mergers and amalgamations are a bit twisted to follow sometimes.

Then there are the partnerships with other companies for the purpose of fulfilling a particular contract eg ABB and Bombadier and their contract with Walkers or whoever.

Sometimes paying a bit more for a product leads to better reliability and after delivery service. A cheaper product, may not necessarily, in the long run, be a better deal.

[colinw]

Got in one, err two, err three ColinW

Yeah, I'd no sooner finished writing that and I realised I'd left out the whole Adtranz stage, and missed the link between Adtranz & Bombardier.  I have a recollection there may have been a German connection in there as well - perhaps through Adtranz?

It sure was a twisted tale.  Worth posting 'though, because I think there has been a perception spread that the Walkers electrics were an entirely home grown product, which they most emphatically were not.

Whatever their heritage, I think there can be no doubt that for the most part they have served Brisbane (and Perth) very well.  There is no reason to think that a Downer EDI / Bombardier bid would not be competitive.

[#Metro]

Whatever their heritage, I think there can be no doubt that for the most part they have served Brisbane (and Perth) very well.  There is no reason to think that a Downer EDI / Bombardier bid would not be competitive.

Exactly. If they are that good as they say they are, then there is no need to put in special legislation or purchasing rules to unfairly tilt the field. And if overseas units really are of the poor quality that they are being made out to be, then they can point that out as well as part of their bid.

[mufreight]

Australia imports bus chassis, fitted out locally.

Beg to differ here, most imported bus chassis are imported in kit form and are assembled here then they are fitted with a wholy localy produced body.

Bombader use a high percentage of localy produced material and importing some components while many of the components are actualy produced here to imported designs, because of the high standards of some of this localy produced componentry some is exported, the actual rollingstock produced here while using some imported components is built here using local materials and labour.
Any faults are rectified localy and the costs of construction while perhaps higher are ofset by reliability and the standard of the rollingstock and the national advantage of local industry on the country economy.
There is more local content in the current build of SMU sets than there is in a BT built Volgren Bus.

[O_128]

Ok for a start 3 or possibly 4 sets of doors are needed, also make the trains full 6 car trains as this frees up more space, longitudal seating only, the older smu sets can then be relighted for longer haul trips while the new sets do the short ones

[ghostryder]

Exactly. If they are that good as they say they are, then there is no need to put in special legislation or purchasing rules to unfairly tilt the field. And if overseas units really are of the poor quality that they are being made out to be, then they can point that out as well as part of their bid.

Beg to differ here.
The Queensland Government has given preference to local makers since 1890 buying most of its Rollingstock from local makers, the idea was to keep as much of the money local and insure local employment. Exceptions being in times where need outstripped the local ability to deliver some examples are the period after World War 2 where BB-18 1/4s and Beyer Garret locos were built overseas C-17s built by Clyde in Sydney Evans Cars made by Waddingtons in Sydney. Another example the arrival of new technology saw the acquasition of the intial locos of the 1150 and 1200 class bought from overseas, subsequent units in the 1150 class made in NSW along with the 1400 and the 1450 classes being made in NSW, the SX tin sets were built in Sydney (under license from Budd to do with external body work.) and the internal fitting out was done in Queensland. Clyde Engineering set up a factory at Eagle Farm in a bid to win contracts. 

scott

[#Metro]

Beg to differ here.
The Queensland Government has given preference to local makers since 1890 buying most of its Rollingstock from local makers, the idea was to keep as much of the money local and insure local employment. Exceptions being in times where need outstripped the local ability to deliver some examples are the period after World War 2 where BB-18 1/4s and Beyer Garret locos were built overseas C-17s built by Clyde in Sydney Evans Cars made by Waddingtons in Sydney. Another example the arrival of new technology saw the acquasition of the intial locos of the 1150 and 1200 class bought from overseas, subsequent units in the 1150 class made in NSW along with the 1400 and the 1450 classes being made in NSW, the SX tin sets were built in Sydney (under license from Budd to do with external body work.) and the internal fitting out was done in Queensland. Clyde Engineering set up a factory at Eagle Farm in a bid to win contracts.

This is the thing- if it costs more, then that money has to come from taxes. And taxes impose a deadweight loss to businesses on the other end because that increases the price of their goods, which reduces the amount that people are willing to buy- thus less employment for someone else in the economy (and also someone else in another country missing an opportunity).