NEWSFLASH: CRR DELAY ANNOUNCED!!!

[#Metro]

I would die from happiness if that happened.

Lets see:

a) is somewhere useful Check
b) does not parallel/duplicate existing infrastructure check busways have been put in the gaps of the rail network.
c) Is the best fit for demand over the alternatives check (start to look at metros at 10 000-15 000 pphd on LRT, TL says busway carries 12 000 so getting close)

Sounds good to me. I think I would support this after maybe a bit more squeezing by using bigger buses...

[Golliwog]

And IMO smarter routing. How many bus routes are there that travel to the city via the busway, just because they've always traveled to the city? With patronage ramping up, I honestly think they need to change the thinking of how the busway operates. I'm not saying there should be one and only one route on the busway, and all others should feed it (although, I wouldn't go too far from that), but unless a route is serving a major corridor (eg, the 130/140/150/555/200/etc) I would vote for cutting them to just being a feeder. It would also prepare people for a metro style operation.

[Gazza]

How did I forget this until now!

Epping Chatswood line - 2009, 12.5km, all underground, for $1.84 Billion, so $147 Million per kilometer....Not bad considering the tunnels and stations would have to fit Sydney's big double decker 8 car trains, and the cost blew out and was the project was plagued with multiple delays.

[somebody]

How did I forget this until now!

Epping Chatswood line - 2009, 12.5km, all underground, for $1.84 Billion, so $147 Million per kilometer....Not bad considering the tunnels and stations would have to fit Sydney's big double decker 8 car trains, and the cost blew out and was the project was plagued with multiple delays.

And political interference which added 800m to the line and gave it steep grades while removing a station which they were going to build (was to have a bridge over Lane Cove River if you don't know what I am referring to).  AIUI this added significantly to the cost.

[Gazza]

Both Ferny Grove and Doomben are naturals for light rail  (ozbob dons tin-foil helmet in preparation for the incoming ...)

Bob wants light rail from Ferny Grove so trams can do historical runs into the city from the Museum  I'm onto you Bob 

And political interference which added 800m to the line and gave it steep grades while removing a station which they were going to build (was to have a bridge over Lane Cove River if you don't know what I am referring to).  AIUI this added significantly to the cost.

Indeed. Proof as to why you need to draw the line somewhere when it comes to NIMBYs. I wonder if they realised the environmental impacts of their decision to ask for further tunnelling, and higher energy use due to the track being the steepest grade in Sydney, and of course the lost trips on PT due to not having a station at a major trip generator.
But still, the figure I got relates to it 'as built' (Pretend it was going to be a tunnel all along), so it can be used as a benchmark.

[#Metro]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbane-lord-mayor-to-quit-for-state-political-tilt-20110321-1c3sz.html?comments=12#comments

Campbell Newman for state politics.

Will he cancel CRR for his Brisbane metro??? 

[colinw]

Ok, a lot of assumptions there.

1.  That Newman actually does switch (based on breaking news seems likely).
2.  That he wins a set (says he'll contest a labor held seat)
3.  That he manages to get the leadership & becomes Premier
4.  That the business case, etc. stacks up (or can be doctored to look like it does - think Clem7)
5.  That the realities of SEQ's public transport don't convince him to change strategy & back CRR after all.

I'm not ready to panic just yet, although a state of concern seems prudent!

[Gazza]

Mr Dow said whereas cross-river rail would be compatible with the existing rail network, a metro would involve "expensive duplication" at a much higher cost than Cr Newman predicted.

"A metro is a different type of rail system. It's independent, it's high frequency, it's an isolated system in that it's not connected with the heavy rail network," Mr Dow said.

"You have to have a completely different system of rolling stock [trains], maintenance, the support for the network.

Just noticed this quote...But isn't the whole point of a metro that it is independent and uses different trains to normal suburban railways....More doors, less seats, faster acceleration, no drivers cab etc etc.

I don't see why this 'duplication' would have to be expensive either....I think out of all the cities with Metros/Subways/U-Bahns, it is only Dubai that didn't have a legacy heavy rail network prior, so 'dupilcation' costs wouldn't be prohibitive, or else none of the overseas systems woud've gotten off the ground.

[ozbob]

That quote is in context as many think that a metro is just a continuation of the present rail network.  The other thing to remember is that other comments do not make into print so things can and do often lack the full context.  This applies to all media and all things.  No wonder the public is hoodwinked on so many things.

It is an expense to have a complete duplication of rolling stock, maintenance facilities stabling and the like.  To pretend it doesn't is silly.

In Australia, we have underground extensions to the heavy rail network. A true metro will not be built in Oz IMHO for at least next 20 years, as I have suggested before what is much more likely is modern light rail using a combination of approaches, surface, tunnel (mainly cut and cover) and elevation.  Other capitals are already moving forward with light rail.  The odd one out is Brisbane.  As was again observed this week the bus way system cannot cope properly, so something is going to give.

[#Metro]

I would support Gazza's metro idea to replace the busway. We have to replace it with something don't we.
I was on it again yesterday. Gee, those international visitors had better not come for their tour during peak hour!

[somebody]

A true metro will not be built in Oz IMHO for at least next 20 years, as I have suggested before what is much more likely is modern light rail using a combination of approaches, surface, tunnel (mainly cut and cover) and elevation.  Other capitals are already moving forward with light rail.  The odd one out is Brisbane.  As was again observed this week the bus way system cannot cope properly, so something is going to give.

Only project I am aware of which is likely to occur is the modest extension to the Sydney Light Rail.

[#Metro]

Adelaide tram-train?

[ozbob]

Melbourne, Perth has also commenced a study.

[#Metro]

and hobart

[somebody]

Melbourne, Perth has also commenced a study.

Well, Melbourne it does make sense to expand their already vast system.  At least on paper.

[Gazza]

It is an expense to have a complete duplication of rolling stock, maintenance facilities stabling and the like.  To pretend it doesn't is silly.

But if you were doing any sort of major rail expansion (Eg a new line rather than a 1 station extension) you'd need to build extra maintenance and stabling facilities regardless, and you'd need extra trains to work the line.

Besides, If Brisbane got light rail, that too would require duplicate maintenance facilities.

[ozbob]

But if you were doing any sort of major rail expansion (Eg a new line rather than a 1 station extension) you'd need to build extra maintenance and stabling facilities regardless, and you'd need extra trains to work the line.

Obviously, but a lot less expense than a completely different system ....  and example of the economy of scale ...

[ozbob]

I wouldn't be surprised if a monorail system eventually wins out in Brisbane over a metro.  Considerable cost advantages.

--> http://www.newaustralia.net/transport_monorail.html

[mufreight]

But if you were doing any sort of major rail expansion (Eg a new line rather than a 1 station extension) you'd need to build extra maintenance and stabling facilities regardless, and you'd need extra trains to work the line.

Obviously, but a lot less expense than a completely different system ....  and example of the economy of scale ...

One of the advantadges of a light rail system is that the maintenence facilities can be a rudimentary servicing facility rather than a more complex workshop facility with major work outsourced possibly to the builder/supplier of the equipment, possibly off site.

[#Metro]

MONORAILS! (Sick sounds in bathroom).    

I can see the NIMBYs go nuts.

What can't elevated (guided) busway or LRT do that monorail can?

[ozbob]

Around 10th of the cost of a metro.  I suppose that will be the determinant.  By the time of the 'transport failure' NIMBYs will have long been pushed into irrelevance, it will be a matter of survival.   This is interesting --> http://www.urbanrail.net/as/chon/chongqing.htm

[somebody]

Adelaide tram-train?

What is this?  Actually, now I can vaguely remember something about one of their train line branches being converted to light rail.  Was it the Grange branch?

[#Metro]

Around 10th of the cost of a metro.  I suppose that will be the determinant.  By the time of the 'transport failure' NIMBYs will have long been pushed into irrelevance, it will be a matter of survival.   This is interesting --> http://www.urbanrail.net/as/chon/chongqing.htm

Yes, but is that cost because it is elevated (right-of-way) or because it is monorail?

I can see a lot of privacy issues with this one! http://www.humantransit.org/2009/08/briefly-on-monorails.html

[Gazza]

Adelaide tram-train?

What is this?  Actually, now I can vaguely remember something about one of their train line branches being converted to light rail.  Was it the Grange branch?

Tonsley Line too, with an extension to Flinders Uni.

Obviously, but a lot less expense than a completely different system ....  and example of the economy of scale ...

I guess a lot of factors come into play. Our loading gauge means we have to order custom trains anyway. A new system could well piggy back off another larger cities rolling stock design.

The main argument I still stand by is that many other cities have a heavy rail network and a metro running in parallel, so obviously the long term benefits would outweigh the upfront costs of a separate system, or else all these places would've never built them.

[#Metro]

I have to say, as much as I like tram-train, why can't Adelaide run more trains and just get tram-train interchange?

[somebody]

The main argument I still stand by is that many other cities have a heavy rail network and a metro running in parallel, so obviously the long term benefits would outweigh the upfront costs of a separate system, or else all these places would've never built them.

That may be, but quite a number of large cities do not, e.g. San Fran.  Metro may work somewhere, but Chermside and Carindale would be the main candidates and they will soon have the busways.

Actually New York does have a couple of separate heavy rail systems.

[Gazza]

^San Fran has MUNI (Light Rail), BART (Sort of a weird one, 15 min frequency on the branches, with frequency together when lines converge) and Caltrain (Diesel Commuter) serving it though.

[somebody]

Didn't know about the Muni.  There you go.

Cities like Vancouver which are of a similar size to Brisbane do have multiple systems.  But with the busway expansion, I don't see where they would go.  That's quite a problem IMO.

[mufreight]

Quote from NSW Open forum by Stillwater

The Queensland Government and Mr Newman would be foolish to contemplate that, in circumstances where the CRR cost went up, the yet to be announced commonwealth contribution, likewise, would escalate proportionally.
It is also false to assume that federal money allocated for projects such as Parramatta-Epping somehow becomes state money that can be reallocated at whim, according to promises the state government of the day has made to bolster its election chances.  We have built into the Connecting SEQ 2031 document a similar assumption that projects funded into the future will be financed by the commonwealth on a proportional basis.  There is absolutely no basis for this assumption.

As has been seen in Victoria and NSW, the potential for cost escalation for major infrastructure projects is great.  The likelihood that CRR will cost more than $8.3 billion is just as great.  A higher cost could mitigate against the value of the benefits expected to be achieved, in which case a need to look at alternative 'value-for-money' projects may be triggered.

Mr Newman -- and again it is worthwhile emphasising that he is non-elected to any public office after this weekend -- has unilaterally declared all LNP policy, including transport policy, 'null and void'.   Does he believe that a whole new suite of LNP policies can be worked up in just six months?  That is about the time he has to develop them.  Or, is his plan to clear the decks so he has carte blanch authority to go around Queensland promising whatever he likes?

When they examine the transport policies of the major parties at the next election, Queenslanders may be faced with the choice of an ambitious and unfunded Labor policy to 'fix things mainly in the period 2025-31' and a 'make it up as you go along' LNP policy.  Either way, that's not good
end of quote
A point here is that it may well be the case that if Premier Bligh calls the election early as she well may that Mr Newman may only have one month to produce and market his possibilities.

[#Metro]

Wasn't the Sydney Metro done on the back of a napkin? Or is that an urban myth.

[Stillwater]

No major piece of infrastructure involving billions of dollars of taxpayer funds should be 'done on the back of a napkin'.  That is the very point.  It is fraught with potential disaster.

[longboi]

Its interesting how dismissive you are of a metro system, Bob. How exactly would a monorail be able to cater to the volumes of passengers who would use such a system? 

[mufreight]

Neither a Metro nor a Monorail are practical options for Brisbane at this time, more bang for the buck can be achieved by CRR or if a secondary system is to be built to suppliment the bus system the option is LRT, more flexible than either Metro or Monorail

[somebody]

Neither a Metro nor a Monorail are practical options for Brisbane at this time, more bang for the buck can be achieved by CRR or if a secondary system is to be built to suppliment the bus system the option is LRT, more flexible than either Metro or Monorail

LRT may have a place in West End/New Farm, the broader parts of Brisbane I am skeptical.

[#Metro]

Fix train frequency! Frankston now has 10 minute trains all day!

Once again, BrizCommuter nails it:
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/03/melbourne-leaves-brisbane-in-its-shadow.html

Melbourne's rail network has had umpteen new timetables since the last major timetable change in Brisbane. That was in 2008, and even that timetable was a disaster for many commuters! Now Melbourne's private rail operator  "Metro Trains" has introduced yet another timetable which will make Brisbane commuters weep, with more major changes still planned in the near future. New timetables here:
http://destinationbetter.metrotrains.com.au/moving-to-a-metro

The most notable addition in the new timetable is a 10 minute weekday daytime frequency from Frankston to the City. For those not familiar with Melbourne, in respect to journey time, Frankston is a similar distance from Melbourne's CBD as Caboolture and Ipswich are from Brisbane's CBD.

"Read the timetable and weep..." 

[Stillwater]

Wow, TWO major timetable reviews every year.  Translink should also take note of how the timetable shows the bus linkages to the railway stations.  Maybe its time to open a new thread here to discuss the look and content of printed timetables.

[#Metro]

Not to mention that Melbourne has a very complicated octopus hydra of a train network

[SteelPan]

   Here's some tunnel inspiration for Brissy Maaatteeee
Gotta give to Zurich - pure class - take in all the sights and background sounds!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj-yeXmz1WQ&feature=related

[Stillwater]

How does the driver guard against becoming hypnotised by the 'tunnel vision'?

[Golliwog]

How does the driver guard against becoming hypnotised by the 'tunnel vision'?

Is there a driver? From the last frame it looked like the camera man/woman was just a normal passenger and it was an automated train.