Car parking - solutions?

[#Metro]

I'm sure that Westfield would want a market return on said car parks.  The current situation is about optimal, with the private sector providing parking at commercial rates, paid by the users of the service.

There will always be some free car parks that are not in use, as the parking ratio is legislated...

I think it is still worth getting on the phone and discussing. Why make assumptions?

[Gazza]

It is not either or. And I keep saying this.

I never said no outright to park and ride.

We can't BUZ everything. Double frequency = double cost.

If you BUZed the existing network, yes indeed, but what about halving the route length by terminating many nearby routes at Carindale, and then doubling the frequency...Same cost  

By all means- go and improve the feeder buses. But it doesn't matter how much you improve them, you are never going to get 100 % coverage or 100 % patronage - there are always going to be gaps, there are always going to be areas uneconomical or difficult to serve. You can't put a BUZ up everyone's street or even most streets. It's OK to drive a car to a park and ride, it's not a crime, you're not an environmental assassin or some heretic if you have to do that just to get to the bus station!

I agree, all im saying is that do the feeders first because they have higher benefit IMO, and need to be done anyway. Yes it takes a long time, but a journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step.

What next? No bicycle racks because "everyone HAS to come by bus!". Or maybe ban public transport because "Walking everywhere is the most sustainable mode" and so we force everyone to walk? Yes I have gone to extremes to demonstrate my point, but the fact is there were 1000+ signatures on that petition.

Skim read this part because its  exaggeration and does nothing to convince me or advance the discussion. So it might as well not be here.

Yeah, but these people have lives and choices, maybe they DON'T want to catch the bus. Maybe they can't maybe it isn't close enough or frequent enough or whatever. Are you going to respect that or just cut their options because they don't live the way you want them to?

My whole point is people don't have a choice, its all rotten apple services.
If we provided frequent feeders, then that gives people a choice.
But now the default is either parking and riding, or using a rotten apple service with a poor public image, so obviously the park and ride looks more attractive.

But as always, good PT should be supply led, and a good feeder network would be guaranteed to attract pax.

[#Metro]

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/tubestationcarparks/default.aspx

Even London has park and rides to tube stations, and they charge. And that is even in a city which is absolutely and completely saturated with public transport and high frequency buses everywhere. Options for everyone.

I agree, all im saying is that do the feeders first because they have higher benefit IMO, and need to be done anyway. Yes it takes a long time, but a journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step.

I'm saying the sequence doesn't matter. Just get it done.

My whole point is people don't have a choice, its all rotten apple services.
If we provided frequent feeders, then that gives people a choice.
But now the default is either parking and riding, or using a rotten apple service with a poor public image, so obviously the park and ride looks more attractive.

But as always, good PT should be supply led, and a good feeder network would be guaranteed to attract pax.

If westfield is happy to provide for a fee, if commuters want to park in it and pay a fee to cover a lease from westfield, then let them have it. This could potentially be done in a few months. The community wants it. It may be possible to strike a mutually agreeable deal there. Nobody should have to wait for every last feeder to be designed, funded whatever, give them the park and ride. And it certainly should not be conditional on whatever outcome with the feeder buses turns out to be. Mutally independent improvements...

[Gazza]

May as well force everyone who owns a car to have a 30 minute random ignition lock delay to force everyone driving to use public transport because "it's good".

Oh that old chestnut.

here were 1000+ signatures on that petition.

But opening up that patch of ashphalt certainly wont fit 1000 cars, so a lot of dissapointed people.

This is a 1500 space car park, so imagine something 2/3 of the size of that needing to be built to satisfy the petitioners alone.


Of course, if Westfield were smart they would offer $3 all day parking, and do the govts job for them. I'd agree with you on that being smart.

I'm saying the sequence doesn't matter. Just get it done.

I think it does a bit, because if you only have a bad route near you, its almost as if you have no PT at all or as if it costs $20 a ticket due to the time factor, from a usability standpoint.

And if there is a finite number of spaces due to charging, then inevitably some people wont be accommodated. These displaced people must have PT provided, or they'll just not use it alltogether, and patronage crashes. People just cant go without.

Thats why feeders need to be established ASAP, because its a perfect storm of people needing transport, and park and ride only being able to cater to some of the demand initially.

. You can't put a BUZ up everyone's street or even most streets

It doesn't even have to be close to that. Just one along every major road, and have them spaced on parallel roads at 8000-1200m intervals, and we get the majority of the population covered.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I used to live next to the railway line in Fitzcarselgibbondine what ever they call it now. When it comes to coverage the whole area is a massive sh%t hole (Sorry for the language, but it is). Its got a good layout of bus routes covering the area on paper but the frequency just drives it into the ground and no one caught it. No one in South East Aspley caught any bus along Gympie Road as its a isolated unlit 200-300m walk minimum along a smelly river through uncut grass surrounded by trees and frequently had derros hanging around the area when the sun started to set (IIRC in the local paper or something there were a few write ups about assults, rapes and muggings in the area relating to people walking home after work having decided to cut through the park at night). Parents at kidspace? kicked up a stink after locals were caught using it to catch the 330 during the holidays. People living along the 340 route in Bridgeman Downs used to drive to the Park and Ride at Carseldine railway station. From experience back in 2007/2008ish the 339s had the same (A few times less) passenger loading than the daytime 335 (I still beleive this is because it bypasses Chermside). Going east towrds the Shorncliffe line/Boondall/Taigum was such as hassel. Bus routes stopped running east at about 8pm (IIRC its just after 9-9.30pm now). The 335 always got a pretty decent load prior to stopping at Chermside inbound/departs Chermside outbound (Wasn't uncommon to be at standing capacity when leaving in the afternoon). The 335 was perferred over the 340 to Chermside due to it being faster and as a result the 340 frequently ran empty from Bridgeman Downs to the station). 340 frequently left even if the Caboolture train had just arrived at the station. Ellison and Robinson Roads has had the same level of frequency since the old 35A days. Towards Gympie Road it still hasn't had a service in decades. Driving everywhere in the area was the norm as a result.

I can't say much for it now but nothing has changed excluding the fare rises so it should be the same.

[O_128]

I'm getting fed up with this argument. If all 1000 signatories put in $1000 each then they can buy 5 parks. See where I'm going? For that money you could BUZ every lousy feeder bus within a 5km radius. People have an issue with feeder buses because they are useless. If I wanted a tour of a suburb Ill do it in my own time. The only way to do a feeder is to really Buz them. 10 mins during peak and 15 mins off.

If carindale residents want a park and ride then they are welcome to pay for it. I am not suffering more fare rises because a minority of people are to lazy to walk/cycle/feeder to a hub.

[#Metro]

Well you don't need 1000 car parks.. even richlands is only 650.

I think 100-200 might be a good number, and charged for/access controlled to PT ticket holders. Would be curious to see how many park and ride on Westfield's turf. I'm sure the practice is already occurring anyway.

All that will happen is another Chermside situation. Everyone will just park in the side streets and the shopping centre car parks will be mostly empty.

While I'm interested in what people should do, I'm interested in what they actually do. And I don't see Carindale that much different to say a Helensvale, for instance.

Feeder buses and car parking are mutually independent improvements. One can happen with or without the other. This is why I don't subscribe to the "we must wait" argument. Mark my words... I hope the residents are ready for their side streets to take the overflow once paid parking comes into force.

You can either work with people or against them... it's easier to work with them and make some reasonable compromises.

[Gazza]

Well you don't need 1000 car parks..

But didn't you just say earlier that 1000+ people petitioned wanting park and ride?

Or would the model be that say 100-200 will pay for parking on the govt owned corner site (However many bays will fit), and the other 800-900 or so would be accomodated in the existing shopping center parking, with Westfield collecting the revenue?

[#Metro]

Gazza, as much as you may not like it there will be people who want to or have to use their car.
Obviously all 1000 people are not going to turn up and use it -- some of them would use your feeder buses surely.

[Gazza]

Obviously all 1000 people are not going to turn up and use it -- some of them would use your feeder buses surely.

Sorry, its just that you said that there was the weight of 1000 people behind it, so I doubt they would sign for it if they didn't intend to use it.

And I think it is entirely feasible 1000 people would be wanting parking there.

Richlands gets 650 a day plus overflow onto the dirt, for what is a station that has 2/3 of its surrounding radius as industrial sheds and just ordinary suburbia.

Carindale could easily beat this in terms of demand.

Obviously BT dont really publish 'Bus Interchange' boarding stats like QR do for rail stations, but I can easily see this bus station being equivalent to many rail stations in terms of pulling power. Its the starting point (Yes I know, Carindale Heights before anyone says anything) of two routes which combine for a 7.5 minute service to the CBD, so there is gonna be that 'bees to a honey pot' factor.

In peak hour, the 10 min frequency of the two BUZ routes alone mean 780 'seats' leave carindale per hour. Obviously it gets people along the way, but PT hubs to tend to get heavy boardings.

The gist of what I'm saying is that if you are correct, and only 100-200 spaces are needed, then that still doesn't avoid the need for a comprehensive feeder network at all.
Its highly unlikely that only 100-200 people depart Carindale per day.

[#Metro]

Did you read my comment?

Obviously all 1000 people are not going to turn up and use it -- some of them would use your feeder buses surely.

There still needs to be park and ride facilities, charged for as well. REGARDLESS of what happens to the feeder buses. There will always be some people not covered.

[O_128]

Did you read my comment?

Obviously all 1000 people are not going to turn up and use it -- some of them would use your feeder buses surely.

There still needs to be park and ride facilities, charged for as well. REGARDLESS of what happens to the feeder buses. There will always be some people not covered.

True but in an urbanised suburb like carindale I don't believe it. Most people driving would be from further out...answer? Extend the 222 to the sleeman centre, heck even abolish the 250 and replace it with the 222.

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Commuters offered unofficial park'n'ride

Commuters offered unofficial park'n'ride
Daniel Hurst
January 5, 2012 - 3:00AM

Brisbane bus commuters struggling to find a place to park near the Carindale bus interchange have been told they can use a makeshift space near the Westfield shopping centre.

But state and local government representatives disagree over whether signs should be installed to turn the public land on the corner of Creek and Old Cleveland roads into an official park'n'ride site.

Debate over the future of the site continued after the state government this week rejected a petition calling for a park'n'ride facility for Carindale bus commuters, with Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk arguing the area was well served by bus feeder services.

Deputy Mayor Adrian Schrinner, who organised the petition and represents the local area in Brisbane City Council, yesterday stepped up his calls for the government to utilise the existing, makeshift carpark on the corner of Creek and Old Cleveland roads.

Much of the site – already containing a sealed carpark – is currently being used by construction workers undertaking a refurbishment at the Westfield Carindale shopping centre.

Cr Schrinner and state Labor member for Chatsworth Steve Kilburn both agreed yesterday that commuters would be able to use the site to park when construction work finished, or even while activity continued if they could find a space.

However, the elected members were divided on whether the area should be sign-posted as an official park'n'ride facility for commuters.

Cr Schrinner said there was room for 300-400 cars on the site and he was sure some commuters already parked there.

"I'm not sure how widespread the knowledge of that area is," he said.

"It's not very clear from the road how to get in either.

"From my point of view all it would take is for TransLink to put in some directional signs, make some improvements to turning lanes and it would be activated as a park'n'ride at minimal cost."

Cr Schrinner said the council was "certainly not going to have a problem with anyone parking there".

However, Mr Kilburn said his priority was to keep pushing for improved bus feeder services so commuters did not have to drive to Carindale to catch a bus to the city.

"In a perfect world, I'd love if there was a park'n'ride and everyone could come here and park and catch a bus, but I'm not going to advocate that at the expense of improved feeder services," Mr Kilburn said.

"It is already a carpark and people can come and park there right now if they can get a parking space."

Mr Kilburn said the difficulty was that once Westfield Carindale started charging its workers in March to use the company's designated employee carparking, those staff members were likely to start using the free carpark on public land, taking up commuter spaces.

"That won't solve the problem; it's not going to fix up people parking in the street. The only thing that is going to fix that is improved feeder [bus] services."

Mr Kilburn dismissed Cr Schrinner's assertions that the carpark was on government-owned land, pointing to a 2007 title search document nominating Brisbane City Council as the registered owner.

Cr Schrinner said it was state-owned land but was the council's responsibility on a day to day basis.

The land is expected to be used for transit-oriented development in the future when the Eastern Busway is extended through the area.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/commuters-offered-unofficial-parknride-20120104-1pl46.html

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Tennis fans served with fines

Tennis fans served with fines
Tony Moore
January 5, 2012 - 3:00AM

Queensland tennis fans have been slugged with more than 500 parking tickets during the first two days of the Brisbane International tournament at Tennyson.

Despite attempts to encourage people to use free buses and trains, promoters remained frustrated by the problem.

At the current rate, there will be about 2000 parking tickets issued after the eight-day tennis tournament finishes on Sunday, compared to the 645 parking tickets issued for the duration of last year's tournament and the 1572 issued in 2010.
Advertisement: Story continues below

Almost all parking tickets have been issued because people have parked for longer than the one-hour parking limit.

The Brisbane International, Brisbane City Council and Translink websites make it clear that driving and parking is discouraged.

"There is very limited parking around the centre, and parking restrictions will apply throughout the event," the Brisbane International website says.

"TransLink encourages all patrons to make use of the free public transport offer available on event bus shuttles, Queensland Rail train and Brisbane Transport bus services."

The council has set up a one-hour parking restriction around the area at Tennyson, because many residents felt frustrated about being unable to park in their suburb.

A council spokeswoman said new signs introduced last year let people know that parking restrictions would be in place during the tennis tournament.

"Last year, council installed new signage around the traffic area to inform residents that parking restrictions would apply during the Brisbane International tennis tournament," she said.

There were 169 parking tickets issued on New Year's Day, the first day of play, and 331 were issued the following day.

Brisbane International tennis organisers said parking information was on their website in a question and answer format which strongly encouraged people to use the free buses and trains.

The council spokeswoman said every effort was being made to persuade people not to drive to the event.

"As this is the third year that the event has run, repeat visitors to the event are more aware of the transport alternatives," she said.

People can travel for free on buses and trains to the Brisbane International.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/tennis/tennis-fans-served-with-fines-20120104-1pl32.html

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Commuters offered unofficial park'n'ride

Commuters offered unofficial park'n'ride
Daniel Hurst
January 5, 2012 - 3:00AM

Brisbane bus commuters struggling to find a place to park near the Carindale bus interchange have been told they can use a makeshift space near the Westfield shopping centre.

But state and local government representatives disagree over whether signs should be installed to turn the public land on the corner of Creek and Old Cleveland roads into an official park'n'ride site.

Debate over the future of the site continued after the state government this week rejected a petition calling for a park'n'ride facility for Carindale bus commuters, with Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk arguing the area was well served by bus feeder services.

Deputy Mayor Adrian Schrinner, who organised the petition and represents the local area in Brisbane City Council, yesterday stepped up his calls for the government to utilise the existing, makeshift carpark on the corner of Creek and Old Cleveland roads.

Much of the site – already containing a sealed carpark – is currently being used by construction workers undertaking a refurbishment at the Westfield Carindale shopping centre.

Cr Schrinner and state Labor member for Chatsworth Steve Kilburn both agreed yesterday that commuters would be able to use the site to park when construction work finished, or even while activity continued if they could find a space.

However, the elected members were divided on whether the area should be sign-posted as an official park'n'ride facility for commuters.

Cr Schrinner said there was room for 300-400 cars on the site and he was sure some commuters already parked there.

"I'm not sure how widespread the knowledge of that area is," he said.

"It's not very clear from the road how to get in either.

"From my point of view all it would take is for TransLink to put in some directional signs, make some improvements to turning lanes and it would be activated as a park'n'ride at minimal cost."

Cr Schrinner said the council was "certainly not going to have a problem with anyone parking there".

However, Mr Kilburn said his priority was to keep pushing for improved bus feeder services so commuters did not have to drive to Carindale to catch a bus to the city.

"In a perfect world, I'd love if there was a park'n'ride and everyone could come here and park and catch a bus, but I'm not going to advocate that at the expense of improved feeder services," Mr Kilburn said.

"It is already a carpark and people can come and park there right now if they can get a parking space."

Mr Kilburn said the difficulty was that once Westfield Carindale started charging its workers in March to use the company's designated employee carparking, those staff members were likely to start using the free carpark on public land, taking up commuter spaces.

"That won't solve the problem; it's not going to fix up people parking in the street. The only thing that is going to fix that is improved feeder [bus] services."

Mr Kilburn dismissed Cr Schrinner's assertions that the carpark was on government-owned land, pointing to a 2007 title search document nominating Brisbane City Council as the registered owner.

Cr Schrinner said it was state-owned land but was the council's responsibility on a day to day basis.

The land is expected to be used for transit-oriented development in the future when the Eastern Busway is extended through the area.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/commuters-offered-unofficial-parknride-20120104-1pl46.html

Mr Kilburn is talking sense ...

[O_128]

I'm getting to the stage where I am going to hurt dobro e if I keep seeing ignorant comments from a minority. Eg tennis there are 5500 people going , so should we build a 500 space park to appease a few lazy people?

What is the issue with street parking? People need to get over themselves. The caribdale solution is a fair compromise and cost effective.

[HappyTrainGuy]

One has to ask could feeders be improved to reduce the parking woes...

[somebody]

One has to ask could feeders be improved to reduce the parking woes...

Feeders here seem perfectly fine in peak hour.  204 covers the bit between Meadowlands Rd and Old Cleveland Rd, 200/201 covers Cribb Rd and 205 covers Scrub Rd.  Also 213 feeds Belmont.

In peak hour I don't know what I'd do differently to present.  There just needs to a financial incentive to use the feeders as opposed to Park 'n' Ride.

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Tennis fans continue to ignore restrictions

Tennis fans continue to ignore restrictions
Tony Moore
January 6, 2012 - 3:00AM

Tennis fans have continued to fall foul of parking inspectors, with nearly 200 fines issued around the Queensland Tennis Centre at Tennyson on day three of play.

Over the first three days of the Brisbane International tournament, nearly 700 parking fines had been issued.

However, a Translink spokesman said about 80 per cent of the tennis fans attending the Brisbane International used public transport to get to the venue.

On Wednesday, there were 196 parking fines issued to people parking in the streets around the tennis centre. Yesterday's figures should be available today.

Over the first two days of play, exactly 500 parking fines were issued, bringing the three-day total to 696.

Brisbane City Council last year amended parking restrictions to enforce a one-hour parking zone between 7am and 10pm to ensure residents were not crowded out by tennis fans.

Ascot fan Sarah Sullivan said she drove to the tennis because Brisbane's public transport was inadequate.

She were surprised to receive a $50 parking fine and said there should be more signs.

"We live over at Ascot and we never really get public transport anywhere because public transport is crap in Brisbane," Ms Sullivan said.

"We always drive everywhere. We thought there would be parking actually, we thought there would be parking included at the tennis centre."

Ms Sullivan said it "never" occurred to her, or her partner Graeme, to catch the train to the tennis.

Graeme said the public transport would take two hours and their ticket only allowed them to watch games until lunch time, and he would not catch public transport after receiving the $50 fine.

"On principle I wouldn't give them the time of day. I would drive my car and park somewhere else," he said.

Tennis fans can travel to Yeerongpilly station on the Beenleigh line and walk 500 metres, or get off at Corinda station and catch a free shuttle bus to the tennis centre.

However, the Translink spokesman said there was no intention to reopen the nearby station at Tennyson, on the Corinda - Yeerongpilly branch line, during the Brisbane International.

"Tennyson station is no longer open and is not considered safe for large numbers of passengers," he said.

Overall, there have been 1001 residential parking permits issued to Tennyson residents, allowing them to park around the tennis centre.

Of those, 266 residents have parking permit stickers which be fixed permanently to each car registered at their address and 288 have portable passes, shared between visitor's cars.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/tennis/tennis-fans-continue-to-ignore-restrictions-20120105-1pmqg.html#ixzz1iccZnRTZ

Blog comment:

Well how about fixing Tennyson railway station then if it is 'unsafe'.  I dispute that, the station has been used for near on a hundred years.  As suggested yesterday on this esteemed blog at Brisbanetimes, some modifications will fix it and allow seamless access to and from free from the parking and road mayhem issues. This failure demonstrates well one of the big failings with public transport policy in SEQ.  A failure to use existing infrastructure properly.  Give us strength!!

[#Metro]

I totally feel no sympathy for that lady. $50 saving and she still wouldn't catch PT.
And now she is "upset" that she got fined. Pfft. Well. Is that your car? Did you drive it? Did you park it illegally?

Nice big car park at PA hospital, could have parked there and caught the 104.

[O_128]

I totally feel no sympathy for that lady. $50 saving and she still wouldn't catch PT.
And now she is "upset" that she got fined. Pfft. Well. Is that your car? Did you drive it? Did you park it illegally?

Nice big car park at PA hospital, could have parked there and caught the 104.

While I understand some people have no PT access where are they getting these times from? 2 hours to the tennis? I'm currently working at the tennis and the PT is totally adequate.

[Mr X]

Ms Sullivan said it "never" occurred to her, or her partner Graeme, to catch the train to the tennis.
Graeme said the public transport would take two hours and their ticket only allowed them to watch games until lunch time, and he would not catch public transport after receiving the $50 fine.

Well there you go. Doomben line?

[#Metro]

Doomben Line I guess. Still could have drove to Eagle Junction and caught a train.

There will always be need for car parks at bus and train stations.... not everyone can get the bus.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Even with the hourly Doomben line it doesn't take two hours to get there.

[SurfRail]

Doomben Line I guess. Still could have drove to Eagle Junction and caught a train.

There will always be need for car parks at bus and train stations.... not everyone can get the bus.

From Ascot?  If we were talking about Nudgee Beach I might be a bit more sympathetic.

[ozbob]

Interesting ...  The visual expression of surface parking  --> here!

[achiruel]

Doomben Line I guess. Still could have drove to Eagle Junction and caught a train.

Train is not the only option in Ascot, there is also 300/301/303/305 buses.

[STB]

Just for the record, here's the Carindale story and comments from the The Redland Times/Bayside Bulletin.

http://www.baysidebulletin.com.au/news/local/news/general/no-parknride-at-carindale/2409400.aspx

No park'n'ride at Carindale
DANIEL HURST, BRISBANE TIMES
04 Jan, 2012 07:27 AM
The state government is standing firm against building a park'n'ride facility at Carindale, insisting bus feeder routes provide good connections from all surrounding suburbs.
Formally rejecting petitions bearing 1650 signatures, Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk yesterday pointed to other park'n'ride facilities "near Carindale".

Ms Palaszczuk said there were facilities at the nearby Sleeman Sports Complex at Chandler (about 4km away by road), Cannon Hill K-Mart Plaza (5km) and the Queensland Sports and Athletics Centre at Nathan (10km).

Brisbane's Deputy Mayor Adrian Schrinner organised the two petitions which called for urgent action to build a park'n'ride near the Carindale bus interchange after Westfield's decision to introduce paid parking at the adjacent shopping centre from March.

Cr Schrinner argued a parking facility designated for commuters would help encourage public transport use and reduce parking demand in surrounding residential streets.

Cr Schrinner said the looming introduction of paid parking at Westfield Carindale would compound the problems and Ms Palaszczuk's response lacked commonsense as Sleeman Sports Complex and QSAC at Nathan were not close to Carindale.

He argued a government-owned site at the corner of Old Cleveland and Creek roads would be ideal for a commuter parking facility.

Cr Schrinner said he'd been told part of the site would be needed for the future Eastern Busway, but he believed it could be used in the meantime.

He said the call for parking had strong support from the local community, with 1650 people signing the petition after he sent letters to 1900 Carindale and Carina Heights residents.

However, in a response released yesterday, Ms Palaszczuk said a park'n'ride facility at Carindale would be against government policy.

"TransLink does not generally support developing new park'n'ride facilities in locations less than one kilometre from shopping centres such as Carindale, where there is heavy traffic and customers have access to a high number of local feeder buses," she wrote to petitioners.

Ms Palaszczuk said park'n'ride facilities located near Carindale shopping centre included the Sleeman Sports Complex at Chandler (500 spaces), Cannon Hill K-Mart Plaza (12 spaces), Cannon Hill railway station (161 spaces), Murarrie (48 spaces) and the QSAC at Nathan (400 spaces).

"It should be noted that bus feeder routes provide good connections from all surrounding suburbs so there is no need for customers to drive and park at the shopping centre," she said.

"These include routes on Cribb Road, Scrub Road, Creek Road and Old Cleveland Road," Ms Palaszczuk said.

And the comments....

Revel in the generic response provided by the outgoing Minister for Costly Public Transport:
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/apps/EPetitions_qld/Responses/1801%20&%201841.pdf

Another typical generic response that dodges the matter, disrespectful of all who signed the petition in that their specific concerns that they drew to the attention of the House have not been answered.

Let all you know the disrespectful response that this government makes to such a feasible and necessary request. Also ask if the LNP will do better.

However, in a response released yesterday, Ms Palaszczuk said a park'n'ride facility at Carindale would be against government policy.
"TransLink does not generally support developing new park'n'ride facilities in locations less than one kilometre from shopping centres such as Carindale, where there is heavy traffic and customers have access to a high number of local feeder buses," she wrote to petitioners.

Perhaps the minister could explain the differece in traffic congestion between Capalaba and Carindale? And why the extra congestion caused by a park and ride at Capalaba is acceptable?

[ozbob]

Media release 7 January 2012

SEQ: Carindale park n' ride already exists

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers agrees with the Minister for Transport's response to the request for a Park n' Ride at Carindale (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The fact is that there is already a Park n' Ride at Carindale, provided by Westfield on commercial terms.  What is being asked for is a subsidised Park n' Ride.  RAIL Back On Track members believe that such money should be put in to bus services rather than car parking."

"At Carindale, there is already a fairly substantial feeder network fanning out from Carindale, with the 200, 202, 203, 204, 212, 215, 250 and 270 services, adding 201, 205, 213 and numerous Veolia services in peak hour.  What is missing is late night frequencies, particularly the 204 bus which gets high loadings."

"The 204 covers the immediate vicinity quite well, but it is not a BUZ yet, in spite of reportedly getting 1.2 million boardings per year (2).  This could be upgraded to BUZ status with an allocation of less than 20000 weekly seats.  This would also raise the profile of the route in the area."

"Spend the money on bus services, not parking!  Solve the problem for the long term. Building more car parks is repeating the mistakes of the past and adding to the congestion and gridlock crisis on the roads."

Reference:

1. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/carindale-commuters-told-to-park-at-qsac-20120103-1pjhi.html

2. "On Board" Spring 2009.

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[dwb]

222 to Sleeman! You know it makes sense 

Even better would be to kill the 222, run the 270+250 half hourly each all the way to the CBD, avoid the 'Gabba and stop in QSBS.

Going to happen?  When pigs fly.

Even if TL wanted it I doubt BT would let a competitor into their bus station! If TMR took it off BTs hands first then it might be a different story....

[dwb]

Why does it have to be cost recovery? I said they had to pay ($2-3), but does it have to be full cost recovery? I think it should only be cost recovery to the extent that demand and supply are balanced and there may even be a case for some subsidy in the same manner that PT is subsidised.

Well bc that money would be better spent on services and road treatment's giving buses priority!

Even to reach cost recovery it would have to be around $12 per day...

[dwb]

I really just don't understand what the big fuss is about park and ride in many situations. For an interchange like that some carparking, paid to control demand, would extend the PT network coverage to houses not within bus distance. Simple. Why so controversial.

Just so we are not at cross purposes - I have absolutely no beef with putting in 1,000s of paid spaces at somewhere like the Sleeman Centre, the Belmont Rifle Range or elsewhere on the urban periphery (Gold Coast stations, Mt Lindesay Highway).  I agree that parking is required, but it is a question of degree. 

Park'n'ride commuters are an absolute minority and should not be given too many favours at the expense of everybody else.  Accordingly, I do not want to see them being encouraged to drive all the way in to what is increasingly a semi-CBD.  Bad policy all round, with people still making up to 50% or more of their journey by car instead of being able to plug into the network at the first opportunity.

+1.

Completely agree Surfrail, and TL spent $30mil on that minority last year... what other benefit could have been bought for that $30mil instead of those 1200 car spaces? I'm thinking one kickarse PT lifestyle reinforcing car share scheme here... so no not everything has to be anti car, but it does have to be clever!

[dwb]

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/tubestationcarparks/default.aspx

Even London has park and rides to tube stations, and they charge. And that is even in a city which is absolutely and completely saturated with public transport and high frequency buses everywhere. Options for everyone.

I agree, all im saying is that do the feeders first because they have higher benefit IMO, and need to be done anyway. Yes it takes a long time, but a journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step.

I'm saying the sequence doesn't matter. Just get it done.

OF course sequencing matters, there is a very limited bucket of cash to spend, why would you keep wasting it on low return investments. First projects get funding, others don't, so definitely don't fund car parks first!!!

[dwb]

No one in South East Aspley caught any bus along Gympie Road as its a isolated unlit 200-300m walk minimum along a smelly river through uncut grass surrounded by trees and frequently had derros hanging around the area when the sun started to set (IIRC in the local paper or something there were a few write ups about assults, rapes and muggings in the area relating to people walking home after work having decided to cut through the park at night).

A good reason that park and ride money should be redirected to paths and lighting to open up coverage areas.

[dwb]

Gazza, as much as you may not like it there will be people who want to or have to use their car.
Obviously all 1000 people are not going to turn up and use it -- some of them would use your feeder buses surely.

Sure, the point is the order and quantum of money you spend on which people.

[Gazza]

So if car drivers are cheap and easy to accommodate, and people should have the choice, then why the opposition to Car Rapid Transit LOL?

I mean, apparently some people 'prefer' to drive to PT and we need to respect their choice, and anything else is dictating what is 'good' for them (30 min ignition locks being the next step yada yada yada)
But then to turn around and say "no more road tunnels for drivers, PT instead, they should harden up and use PT!" is not doing exactly the same thing? If someone lives in an area without good PT and 'prefers' to drive, then a new freeway seems fantastic to them.

Not that I'm saying we should build more tunnels and roads though!

But as far as I'm concerned, P&R and CRT share many of the same characteristics. Both only short term solutions, both low capacity, both costly (And its a catch 22, if you want to have user pays, the price needs to be set  so high nobody uses it, see clem7 etc), both can never hope to cater to full demand and induce it, both have user groups that 'prefer' and feel entitled to it for free, it so we are forced to cater to them, rather than an efficient solution for the majority.
They are variants of the same idea IMO. That's why the LNP wants it in the inner 10km of Brisbane, yet say nothing about feeders.

The $30 Mil spent on Park and Ride this year would fund Cityglider for a almost decade. ($3.1 Mil a year to run)

$30 Mil builds 1000 spaces at best.

Guess which option boosts PTs mode share more? Guess which option provides more mobility?

[#Metro]

But as far as I'm concerned, P&R and CRT share many of the same characteristics. Both only short term solutions, both low capacity, both costly (And its a catch 22, if you want to have user pays, the price needs to be set  so high nobody uses it, see clem7 etc), both can never hope to cater to full demand and induce it, both have user groups that 'prefer' and feel entitled to it for free, it so we are forced to cater to them, rather than an efficient solution for the majority.
They are variants of the same idea IMO. That's why the LNP wants it in the inner 10km of Brisbane, yet say nothing about feeders.

The $30 Mil spent on Park and Ride this year would fund Cityglider for a almost decade. ($3.1 Mil a year to run)

$30 Mil builds 1000 spaces at best.

Guess which option boosts PTs mode share more? Guess which option provides more mobility?

Gazza, you're overlooking the two goals the public transport is supposed to serve. The first goal is patronage (we want to move masses of people because it is better that way) and the second goal is welfare (we want to provide close to universal access to PT for those who want it / people pay taxes too).

Park and ride isn't a patronage measure. It is a welfare measure designed to increase the coverage area of PT. So by that reasoning, it becomes a value judgement, not a technical one about how much park and ride to allow and also where to place park and ride. My position is that there should be some provision of park and ride and also, there should be a contribution to regulate demand. And I also think that for the same reasons that public transport does not have to break even, people who use park and ride should not necessarily have to cough up $12 (i.e. full cost recovery) to use it.

The second line of thought of mine is also that it may be possible to cover some of the low frequency bus routes by substituting them with P&R.

The reality is that Brisbane is not Paris. We have lower density parts and if we want coverage on places like that, without running
Welfare BUZ, P&R needs to be deployed there. Other suggestions that other park and ride facilities could be used (i.e. Chandler) have merit but there needs to be proper marketing, a decent map and decent services out there of course.

[dwb]

But as far as I'm concerned, P&R and CRT share many of the same characteristics. Both only short term solutions, both low capacity, both costly (And its a catch 22, if you want to have user pays, the price needs to be set  so high nobody uses it, see clem7 etc), both can never hope to cater to full demand and induce it, both have user groups that 'prefer' and feel entitled to it for free, it so we are forced to cater to them, rather than an efficient solution for the majority.
They are variants of the same idea IMO. That's why the LNP wants it in the inner 10km of Brisbane, yet say nothing about feeders.

The $30 Mil spent on Park and Ride this year would fund Cityglider for a almost decade. ($3.1 Mil a year to run)

$30 Mil builds 1000 spaces at best.

Guess which option boosts PTs mode share more? Guess which option provides more mobility?

Gazza, you're overlooking the two goals the public transport is supposed to serve. The first goal is patronage (we want to move masses of people because it is better that way) and the second goal is welfare (we want to provide close to universal access to PT for those who want it / people pay taxes too).

Park and ride isn't a patronage measure. It is a welfare measure designed to increase the coverage area of PT. So by that reasoning, it becomes a value judgement, not a technical one about how much park and ride to allow and also where to place park and ride. My position is that there should be some provision of park and ride and also, there should be a contribution to regulate demand. And I also think that for the same reasons that public transport does not have to break even, people who use park and ride should not necessarily have to cough up $12 (i.e. full cost recovery) to use it.

The second line of thought of mine is also that it may be possible to cover some of the low frequency bus routes by substituting them with P&R.

The reality is that Brisbane is not Paris. We have lower density parts and if we want coverage on places like that, without running
Welfare BUZ, P&R needs to be deployed there. Other suggestions that other park and ride facilities could be used (i.e. Chandler) have merit but there needs to be proper marketing, a decent map and decent services out there of course.

Tramtrain YOU are overlooking the fact that $30mil was spent by Translink LAST YEAR on park and ride to little benefit broadly to the network. You still haven't acknowledged my main argument against even higher provision of park and ride, which was "the [important] point is the order and quantum of money you spend on which people"/projects. If you keep spending all the money available on p&r then you can't do the other things you want to do. The existing p&r policy is already stripping funds off other service improvements/network enhancements and yet you want more??? Really??? Keep eating those rotten apples mate cos that is what you're going to get.

[Gazza]

The second line of thought of mine is also that it may be possible to cover some of the low frequency bus routes by substituting them with P&R.

What about people with no cars, infirm, disabled, unable to drive, children etc?

[O_128]

People are missing the point $30 MILLION was spent so 1200 people could park there cars. The city glider costs 3.1 million a year. For 30 million you could put 30 feeder routes on.