Car parking - solutions?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Grab a free Mx or have an umbrella

[Gazza]

Toowong works well, due to the overpass.

[dwb]

^^ LOL

A certain supermarket has wheel locks on shopping trolleys at Inala.  Once the boundary of the car park is reached one wheel is locked.

Folks just continue to drag them along, although it is a bit more difficult to take them a long way up the street etc.

My sister lives near Robina Town Centre, around 300m away via a public path. Once leaving the centre, a big sign says "NO TROLLEY BEYOND THIS POINT" and of course people dump their trolleys there, but really if we're doing a big shop we can't just carry it all and aren't prepared to drive (which could defeat the purpose of a pedestrian oriented area AND is slower than walking) so we just take it along, take our shopping up and return it.
I know trolleys can be expensive to replace, I think the $1 fee works, where if you return it you get your $ back.

Like I said, you can get a folding shopping buggy.

For an entire trolley?? =\ repacking for 200M is dumb!
Some centre managements should be a little bit less strict on where their trolleys are taken. What's next, GPS activated alarms??

Get one of those little trollies that the pensioners used, and that there even used to be a stand space for them on BT buses... you can use your own trolley in and out of the shop and even on PT then. Too small? Shop more often.

[#Metro]

Home delivery anyone?

[Golliwog]

Try it in the rain!

Haha, I have. It's still fine, you either have an umbrella or you don't. You're going to get wet anyway when you get off somewhere else (unless it's stopped raining) so not being fully covered isn't really an issue. Park Rd/Boggo Rd has a cover, but its pretty crappy, and it doesn't seem to bother anyone.

[mufreight]

Get one of those little trollies that the pensioners used, and that there even used to be a stand space for them on BT buses... you can use your own trolley in and out of the shop and even on PT then. Too small? Shop more often.

Good in theory, but shop more often? frequently not an option for many, such as the pensioners that you referred to as they only do the one shopping trip each pension day and by necessicity it is do the lot on that one trip.
Public transport fare increases are pricing them out of public transport for anything other than essential trips.

[Gazza]

^I don't think he was saying pensioners should shop more often, rather fit people who 'borrow' trolleys.

Honestly, people should try to solve their own problems. It's not the job of the supermarket to provide a means of getting stuff home for the population in walking distance of the supermarket.

You could always get a couple of buggies if things wont fit in one.

[dwb]

Get one of those little trollies that the pensioners used, and that there even used to be a stand space for them on BT buses... you can use your own trolley in and out of the shop and even on PT then. Too small? Shop more often.

Good in theory, but shop more often? frequently not an option for many, such as the pensioners that you referred to as they only do the one shopping trip each pension day and by necessicity it is do the lot on that one trip.
Public transport fare increases are pricing them out of public transport for anything other than essential trips.

Oh bollocks.

[O_128]

Get one of those little trollies that the pensioners used, and that there even used to be a stand space for them on BT buses... you can use your own trolley in and out of the shop and even on PT then. Too small? Shop more often.

Good in theory, but shop more often? frequently not an option for many, such as the pensioners that you referred to as they only do the one shopping trip each pension day and by necessicity it is do the lot on that one trip.
Public transport fare increases are pricing them out of public transport for anything other than essential trips.

Oh bollocks.

DWB, As a student fares are to expensive, Ive started cycling and walking more than taking the bus. Its a 1.8k walk to the methyr village coles for me, to hard with groceries and no way am I paying $1.30 for the privilege of using the bus. In paris 1.3 euros got me anywhere within zone 1 (most of the metro network) I can easily understand why pensioners are having a hard time

[Gazza]

$1.30 isn't a lot of money actually.
But good on ya for using active transport.

Paris can provide fares that cheap because fixed costs are divided across more pax, so not sure how/why we should be attempting to compete with them on a price level.

[O_128]

$1.30 isn't a lot of money actually.
But good on ya for using active transport.

Paris can provide fares that cheap because fixed costs are divided across more pax, so not sure how/why we should be attempting to compete with them on a price level.

But 1.30 adds up when I want to do multiple local trips to the point where I'm spending to much on PT,

[Gazza]

Presumably you could only spend $13 a week on PT once the weekly cap comes in, if you are only doing these short trips you describe.

$13 a week, Problem?

[dwb]

Get one of those little trollies that the pensioners used, and that there even used to be a stand space for them on BT buses... you can use your own trolley in and out of the shop and even on PT then. Too small? Shop more often.

Good in theory, but shop more often? frequently not an option for many, such as the pensioners that you referred to as they only do the one shopping trip each pension day and by necessicity it is do the lot on that one trip.
Public transport fare increases are pricing them out of public transport for anything other than essential trips.

Oh bollocks.

DWB, As a student fares are to expensive, Ive started cycling and walking more than taking the bus. Its a 1.8k walk to the methyr village coles for me, to hard with groceries and no way am I paying $1.30 for the privilege of using the bus. In paris 1.3 euros got me anywhere within zone 1 (most of the metro network) I can easily understand why pensioners are having a hard time

It is called trip chaining... and I know plenty of pensioners who are out there on the PT system day in day out... same with students, so just get it on the way or like you said walk! And before you say it, not all pensioners are invalid!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Get one of those little trollies that the pensioners used, and that there even used to be a stand space for them on BT buses... you can use your own trolley in and out of the shop and even on PT then. Too small? Shop more often.

I'll remember that next time I get on the afternoon peak hour bus after doing my shopping at Coles express in the city    OUTTA MY WAY!!! 

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Frustrated retailers demand parking action

[#Metro]

Looking at the Ottawa Transitway system and came across this - PAID PARKING

Shock Horror! (not!)
A gold pass is $50 per month - about $2.50 per day. An enterprising organisation might auction them off... 

http://www.octranspo1.com/routes/gold_permit_parking
http://www.octranspo1.com/routes/park_and_ride

Introduce Paid Parking at stations where carparks are overflowing into streets!

A Gold permit guarantees you a parking space on weekdays until 6:00 p.m.

Permits are limited and sold on a first come, first serve basis.

Gold Park & Ride permits are sold at the Sales and Information Centres, or by telephone at 613-741-4390.

Permits are on sale from the 15th of the previous month at a cost of $50.00 per month.

Customers will be asked to produce their current monthly or annual pass to purchase a permit.

[ozbob]

From the Queensland Times click here!

Dob in a car park cheat

Dob in a car park cheat

Kieran Banks | 28th December 2011

A COUNTRY town is hoping volunteer car-watchers will hold the key to solving its parking problems.

Scenic Rim Regional Council is set to introduce limited two- and four-hour parking limits in the town's centre, but is reluctant to introduce parking meters.

Instead, members of the public will be recruited to monitor parking spaces and gently remind offending drivers.

The targeted streets will include High, Railway, Park and Church sts.

Council has opened up its draft plan to public consultation, with submissions closing on January 31.

A council spokesman said they wished to provide motorists with reminders of their overstaying rather than enforcement.

"Parking meters are not the preferred option," he said.

However, the spokesman said fines would be considered for drivers who continually ignored the restrictions.

"The decision to install time parking has not yet been made, however, given the

community spirit that exists in townships like Boonah we are not expecting a significant number of repeat offenders," he said.

"If council experiences this then it will be addressed at that time.

"Fining is one of the tools available to council for future consideration."

The parking shake-up is long overdue, according to Tanya Ruhland of Boonah Butchery. She raised the issue in 2008 by starting a petition to protest about the difficulties of parking in Boonah.

She said the town centre's parking spaces were often clogged with staff from businesses, preventing shoppers from getting prime parks.

Ms Ruhland said staff had to be aware of the impact they were having on customers.

"We have a lot of elderly customers and even a small parcel of meat becomes heavy for them if they have to walk far," she said.

Ms Ruhland said it was important the restrictions were enforced.

"I think there has got to be some kind of policing and effort to make people aware of the changes. Something as simple as businesses dropping a leaflet on the car," she said.

The Boonah District Chamber of Commerce added weight to the debate this year, releasing the Boonah Fair Parking Plan.

The council spokesman said residents could provide written feedback by mail, email or at the Boonah council office.

The Scenic Rim Regional Council draft can be seen at www.scenicrim.qld.gov.au.

[O_128]

http://thingsboganslike.com/2010/09/20/175-car-parks/

[#Metro]

Scenic Rim Regional Council is set to introduce limited two- and four-hour parking limits in the town's centre, but is reluctant to introduce parking meters.

Ha, charge!

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Carindale commuters told to park at QSAC

Carindale commuters told to park at QSAC
Daniel Hurst
January 4, 2012 - 3:00AM

The state government is standing firm against building a park'n'ride facility at Carindale, insisting bus feeder routes provide good connections from all surrounding suburbs.

Formally rejecting petitions bearing 1650 signatures, Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk yesterday pointed to other park'n'ride facilities "near Carindale" including Sleeman Sports Complex at Chandler (about four kilometres away by road), Cannon Hill K-Mart Plaza (five kilometres) and the Queensland Sports and Athletics Centre at Nathan (10 kilometres).

The two petitions, organised by Deputy Mayor Adrian Schrinner, called for urgent action to build a park'n'ride near the Carindale bus interchange, particularly in light of Westfield's decision to introduce paid parking at the adjacent shopping centre from March.

Cr Schrinner argued a parking facility designated for commuters would help encourage public transport use and reduce parking demand in surrounding residential streets.

However, in a response released yesterday, Ms Palaszczuk said a park'n'ride facility at Carindale would be against government policy.

"TransLink does not generally support developing new park'n'ride facilities in locations less than one kilometre from shopping centres such as Carindale, where there is heavy traffic and customers have access to a high number of local feeder buses," she wrote to petitioners.

Ms Palaszczuk said park'n'ride facilities located near Carindale shopping centre included the Sleeman Sports Complex at Chandler (500 spaces), Cannon Hill K-Mart Plaza (12 spaces), Cannon Hill railway station (161 spaces), Murarrie (48 spaces) and the QSAC at Nathan (400 spaces).

"It should be noted that bus feeder routes provide good connections from all surrounding suburbs so there is no need for customers to drive and park at the shopping centre," she said.

"These include routes on Cribb Road, Scrub Road, Creek Road and Old Cleveland Road."

Cr Schrinner last night warned that people would continue to drive to places like Carindale to catch a bus, saying some level of commuter parking should be provided.

"The feeder bus argument works well in theory but in practice people will always drive to places like Carindale to park and ultimately there'll always be a need for some commuter parking at places like Carindale," he said.

"My concern now is that we'll see local residential streets parked out and massive residential problems in the streets around the shopping centre," he said.

"It's going to be parking chaos in the local area."

Cr Schrinner said the looming introduction of paid parking at Westfield Carindale would compound the problems and Ms Palaszczuk's response lacked commonsense as Sleeman Sports Complex and QSAC at Nathan were not close to Carindale.

He argued a government-owned site at the corner of Old Cleveland and Creek roads would be ideal for a commuter parking facility.

Cr Schrinner said he'd been told part of the site would be needed for the future Eastern Busway, but he believed it could be used in the meantime.

He said the call for parking had strong support from the local community, with 1650 people signing the petition after he sent letters to 1900 Carindale and Carina Heights residents.

"Ultimately if this government won't do it let's hope whoever wins the state election will have a different response," the Liberal National Party councillor said.

The introduction of paid parking at Westfield's Chermside and Carindale shopping centres have sparked ongoing debate over the adequacy of spaces for commuters.

Both are sites of busy bus stations. The shopping centre operator says the move towards paid parking for anyone occupying a space for three hours or more is aimed at deterring commuters from taking shoppers' spaces.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/carindale-commuters-told-to-park-at-qsac-20120103-1pjhi.html

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

13th December 2011 and 4th January 2012

Re: SEQ: Parking pressures around stations? More of the same is the wrong answer.

Greetings,

Car parking is a major issue.  It will not be solved by knocking down yet more houses and building more acres of tar car park wastelands.

A concerted effort to provide regular feeder buses to stations is needed, particularly  during the periods 5.30am to 9.30am, 3.30pm to 7.30pm.  This will provide a real alternative for public transport passengers.

It means that the limited park n' rides will be available for shift workers and those who don't travel at peak times.

'Station buses', using midi-buses on local runs should also be considered  (see --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=532.msg4651#msg4651 ).

in many circumstances small local station buses will do the job.  These buses can be used for other tasks during the day was well. For example, shopping runs for retirement homes and so forth.  Some places route feeders are fine, other spots midi buses might be the go.  Other places around the world do this.  Matter of horses for courses.  It is really sensible to have full size buses do small feeder runs?

Once a proper network of feeder and station buses is in place, some consideration for cost recovery from park n' rides might be achievable.  This would further encourage use of public and active transport options, rather than selfish car use.

Time new thinking was implemented.

Smart state or failed state?

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

On 9/12/2011 10:24 AM, RAIL Back On Track Admin wrote:
Media release 9 December 2011

SEQ: Parking pressures around stations? More of the same is the wrong answer.

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said there has been plenty of controversy in the media about parking shortages at train stations, and fines subsequently being dished out when cars overflow into the streets and park illegally.

What is the solution?

RAIL Back On Track Member Gavin Seipelt said:

"In our outer areas, Park n' Ride can be a handy solution for where it may be too far to walk or cycle to the station, or where it is difficult to give full coverage with buses."

"However this is not the case for the inner suburbs of Brisbane. The concentration of jobs and population within the inner 10km means it is entirely possible to blanket the area with a comprehensive grid of frequent public transport, within walking distance of all homes. The fact people drive to station says there are gaps in coverage, frequency and operation hours that people are being forced to compensate for, by forced car usage."

"RAIL Back On Track  believes that building parking stations near inner city transport hubs is an expensive, short term solution, and will never cater to the long term projected goals of tripling public transport usage, unless of course we just keep building bigger and bigger car parks.
When the usage of many train stations is measured in the thousands, you can see how attempting to provide this many parking bays, at every station, is absurd."

"A better long term solution of connecting buses can readily be ramped up over time as public transport loads increase, and solves the problem for good."

"Buses can be readily deployed as feeders to funnel passengers into the rail network (1).
Unfortunately this is done in  very limited manner in Brisbane, or has been done poorly, resulting in missed connections and long waits when changing from one vehicle to the next."

"Thoughtful co-ordination of the network is the key, not thoughtlessly building car parks."

Reference:

1.  Car parking - solutions?   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=532.0

Contacts:

Gavin Seipelt
RAIL Back On Track Member

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail Quest click here!

Bulimba needs more bus services says public transport advocate

Bulimba needs more bus services says public transport advocate

    by: Alex Strachan, South-East Advertiser
    From: Quest Newspapers
    January 03, 2012 3:56PM

PUBLIC transport advocate Rail Back on Track says Brisbane City Council should introduce a BUZ bus service to Bulimba to solve the area's parking problems.

Rail Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said last year's Bulimba paid parking row could have been avoided if more bus routes serviced the area. He proposed a BUZ service to Bulimba and Balmoral through Thynne Rd and Riding Rd.

"It is surprising that a suburb like Bulimba, with the cinema and popular restaurant district, does not have a BUZ service," spokesman Robert Dow said. "Frequent bus services are good for people, good for business and good for development."

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk said while TransLink had the final say on bus routes, he would throw his weight behind any move to get more high-frequency bus services into the suburbs, particularly at busy shopping precincts.

"If the Government's going to raise bus fares 15 per cent every year until 2014 then the extra money they're generating needs to go back into suburban services," he said.

[#Metro]

I think main interchanges it is OK to have park and ride on the single condition that they pay market rate for parking there.
Main interchanges are actually not a bad idea for park and ride because people will drive for the frequency (I think Derwan explained a situation like this in some other thread a while ago).

If they want it, they should pay for it.
Sure there are buses but for 100% coverage in an area, you need car. This would also mean less need for circuitous feeder routes.

[#Metro]

Ms Palaszczuk said park'n'ride facilities located near Carindale shopping centre included the Sleeman Sports Complex at Chandler (500 spaces), Cannon Hill K-Mart Plaza (12 spaces), Cannon Hill railway station (161 spaces), Murarrie (48 spaces) and the QSAC at Nathan (400 spaces).

No-one wants to park at these places because the frequency and mobility at these locations are cr*p. Build a park and ride at the interchange, enforce paid parking controls in the area and make the carpark non-free. MAKE THEM PAY.

It's not free parking if you have a charge.

[somebody]

I agree with TT here.  I'm sure Westfield Carindale would be pleased to provide parking for commuters at the rate it has set.

[Mr X]

To be honest, I'd love my shopping centre to do this too. It's a certain one in southern inner Brisbane where every other parking space in practically the whole area is paid street parking. Finishing work at 9pm on a Saturday, driving out of there the entire thing (two levels) is basically full of cars and you see plenty of people walking OUT of the car park to go dining along a nearby restaurant strip! We close at 5pm on a Saturday when the centre closes so these people can't possibly be genuine customers.

Even worse during events like Paniyiri which draws big crowds and is a 10min walk away. As an employee, I have difficulties in finding a spot because of people using it as FREE PARKING!

If centre management, even one weekend night, put out an inspector to book these people I reckon they could make a nice $10,000+ profit. I'd 100% support making people to pay for parking.

[#Metro]

I agree with TT here.  I'm sure Westfield Carindale would be pleased to provide parking for commuters at the rate it has set.

Same with Westfield. It would actually be profitable if Westfield had some spare parking space that they section off a part and charge for it. I have no problem with people who only have car access, for whatever reason, using a car park as long as they pay something for that privilege, and there is a charge to deter people from using it who have access to other options.

Why turn people away who want to catch PT, and are prepared to pay a premium for doing so? Charge them $2-3, this also means the car park can be smaller as well, and thus less costly to build in the first place.

Strike a deal that balances competing needs and values-- not everyone can catch the bus, no matter how good they are. Impossible to get 100% coverage in an area and not always desirable too. Build a lot of free bike racks as well, and put these in a priority location nearest to the buses.

No-one will drive to those far flung and obscure park and rides because the frequency there is rubbish. Formally rejecting petitions bearing 1650 signatures, There are people who want this - there's community support for it, obviously.

I think this needs to be re-thought. Is there space? Will there be demand if charges are levied. Strike a deal...

[SurfRail]

Ugh.  Disagree entirely with the above.

The only way to implement paid parking at major interchanges in a sensible manner would be to set an appropriate value on the congestion and wear caused by attracting large volumes of cars into a busy area with limited road space (ie to the point where nobody would pay for it). 

Buses can be ramped up considerably more so than they are at present at places like Carindale with crap frequencies.  Worry about that first.

[#Metro]

Ugh.  Disagree entirely with the above.

The only way to implement paid parking at major interchanges in a sensible manner would be to set an appropriate value on the congestion and wear caused by attracting large volumes of cars into a busy area with limited road space (ie to the point where nobody would pay for it).

Buses can be ramped up considerably more so than they are at present at places like Carindale with crap frequencies.  Worry about that first.

Disagree. The park and ride situation needs a MAP with FREQUENT FEEDER routes highlighted in an area, just like a frequent network map, there needs to be a proper map! For starters! No good just describing it in words...

Secondly, it is obvious that people are using the centre as park and ride right now anyway, and shopping centres are already high traffic generators anyway, the roads around that are built for that capacity, so disagree about the congestion thing.

Thirdly, I think there should be a park and ride somewhere on the Eastern Busway, similar to the situation out at 8 Mile Plains... but it should be CHARGED FOR to moderate demand.

[SurfRail]

Secondly, it is obvious that people are using the centre as park and ride right now anyway, and shopping centres are already high traffic generators anyway, the roads around that are built for that capacity, so disagree about the congestion thing.

Because they are unwilling to subject themselves to an unreliable bus system that does not meet their needs.  Fix that first, and the parking issues will be easier to manage.

I earnestly believe most of the parking issues would be resolved without providing these spaces at Carindale.  For those who live in Gumdale or places like that - use the Sleeman Centre, which is not in a busy built-up area.

[#Metro]

Because they are unwilling to subject themselves to an unreliable bus system that does not meet their needs.  Fix that first, and the parking issues will be easier to manage.

I don't agree. You cannot achieve 100 % coverage and 100 % high frequency simultaneously in a place like this. Remember that patronage goals and coverage goals conflict. There will always be a need for some parking and people will naturally drive to the place with the highest frequency- which is naturally the interchange!

The sleeman centre is awful - you have to catch 250 or other 2X veolia services. Nowhere near enough frequency and nowhere near the range of mobility available at Carindale. There is demonstrated community support.

People want to deter other people from parking there using policy and laws --- it is the wrong tool IMHO. Use prices to moderate demand instead. That way those who have access to a bus use it, and those who have no access can use the parking space and pay for it. The petition shows that people DO want that option - and there has to be options for everyone and in this case, i think it is totally appropriate.

I earnestly believe most of the parking issues would be resolved without providing these spaces at Carindale.  For those who live in Gumdale or places like that - use the Sleeman Centre, which is not in a busy built-up area.

We will have to agree to disagree at this point. Indeed if public transport were that amazing, there would actually be no need for any car parks at any suburban shopping centres... clearly false.

[Gazza]

222 to Sleeman! You know it makes sense 

[somebody]

222 to Sleeman! You know it makes sense 

Even better would be to kill the 222, run the 270+250 half hourly each all the way to the CBD, avoid the 'Gabba and stop in QSBS.

Going to happen?  When pigs fly.

[SurfRail]

I don't agree. You cannot achieve 100 % coverage and 100 % high frequency simultaneously in a place like this. Remember that patronage goals and coverage goals conflict. There will always be a need for some parking and people will naturally drive to the place with the highest frequency- which is naturally the interchange!

Oh for goodness' sake -  there you go again.  Who ever said anything about 100% everything?

There would be no overflow parking issues if enough commuters were catching buses from further out.  The current public transport spend is extremely low as a proportion of all government transport spending.  Time to stimulate patronage by ramping up feeder services.  Do you seriously think this cannot be done more meaningfully than at present?

Encouraging any form of car travel beyond present levels into major centres is sheer lunacy, because the "price" would only be referable to constructing the car park and not managing the demand for additional car travel throughout the suburb.  I would suggest that if you went further than "cost recovery", the price would be higher than what people would be prepared to pay.  Just fling the money at Veolia and BT in the first place, and those people who need to park can do so without having to drive to Carindale.

The sleeman centre is awful - you have to catch 250 or other 2X veolia services. Nowhere near enough frequency and nowhere near the range of mobility available at Carindale. There is demonstrated community support.

Again - expand the parking THERE, and expand services THERE, and emphasise that people save fuel and time and agita by not having to drive halfway to the city before boarding public transport to get there.  Veolia don't even run at 15 minute headways in the shoulder peak, so of course nobody wants to go to the Sleeman Centre.  That needs to be fixed, and can be done with the resources that a park and ride on the corner of Creek and Old Cleveland Roads would require to implement.

People want to deter other people from parking there using policy and laws --- it is the wrong tool IMHO. Use prices to moderate demand instead. That way those who have access to a bus use it, and those who have no access can use the parking space and pay for it. The petition shows that people DO want that option - and there has to be options for everyone and in this case, i think it is totally appropriate.

People also want public transport to be free and to run express from their house to the city.  I've given up on what popular sentiment requires as some kind of absolute and prefer looking to sensible town planning principles developed by people who know what they are talking about. 

If Carindale is to ultimately be a secondary CBD, then more parking is a self-defeating solution.

[#Metro]

Oh for goodness' sake -  there you go again.  Who ever said anything about 100% everything?

But you do, intuitively, understand my point, otherwise you would not have reacted to it. So even you know that 100% coverage is crazy, and therefore there is areas that its not going to be PT covered, no matter how much effort you put into the feeder buses.

There would be no overflow parking issues if enough commuters were catching buses from further out.  The current public transport spend is extremely low as a proportion of all government transport spending.  Time to stimulate patronage by ramping up feeder services.  Do you seriously think this cannot be done more meaningfully than at present?

I don't see why it has to be ONE or the OTHER. Sure feeder buses can be done up, but you still can't catch everyone and obviously there is demand for this. Where are these feeder buses going? How much are they costing? Which roads? What scope of hours? etc etc.

Encouraging any form of car travel beyond present levels into major centres is sheer lunacy, because the "price" would only be referable to constructing the car park and not managing the demand for additional car travel throughout the suburb.  I would suggest that if you went further than "cost recovery", the price would be higher than what people would be prepared to pay.  Just fling the money at Veolia and BT in the first place, and those people who need to park can do so without having to drive to Carindale.

You may not value park and ride. All you need to do is alter the price so that the car park is only just under full. That's all you've got to do- every other commercial car park and Perth seem to be capable of doing it. It's called the price mechanism, demand and supply. Obviously the price at the car park and the car travel to the suburb are intrinsically linked. I mean, expensive car parking is one reason why people don't drive to the CBD and catch PT- so it *does* work.

Why does it have to be cost recovery? I said they had to pay ($2-3), but does it have to be full cost recovery? I think it should only be cost recovery to the extent that demand and supply are balanced and there may even be a case for some subsidy in the same manner that PT is subsidised.

Again - expand the parking THERE, and expand services THERE, and emphasise that people save fuel and time and agita by not having to drive halfway to the city before boarding public transport to get there.  Veolia don't even run at 15 minute headways in the shoulder peak, so of course nobody wants to go to the Sleeman Centre.  That needs to be fixed, and can be done with the resources that a park and ride on the corner of Creek and Old Cleveland Roads would require to implement.

You could do that.

People also want public transport to be free and to run express from their house to the city.  I've given up on what popular sentiment requires as some kind of absolute and prefer looking to sensible town planning principles developed by people who know what they are talking about. 

It is not necessary to run PT express from their house to the city. You can transfer by walking, cycling, feeder bus, or by car park and ride.

I really just don't understand what the big fuss is about park and ride in many situations. For an interchange like that some carparking, paid to control demand, would extend the PT network coverage to houses not within bus distance. Simple. Why so controversial.

[SurfRail]

I really just don't understand what the big fuss is about park and ride in many situations. For an interchange like that some carparking, paid to control demand, would extend the PT network coverage to houses not within bus distance. Simple. Why so controversial.

Just so we are not at cross purposes - I have absolutely no beef with putting in 1,000s of paid spaces at somewhere like the Sleeman Centre, the Belmont Rifle Range or elsewhere on the urban periphery (Gold Coast stations, Mt Lindesay Highway).  I agree that parking is required, but it is a question of degree. 

Park'n'ride commuters are an absolute minority and should not be given too many favours at the expense of everybody else.  Accordingly, I do not want to see them being encouraged to drive all the way in to what is increasingly a semi-CBD.  Bad policy all round, with people still making up to 50% or more of their journey by car instead of being able to plug into the network at the first opportunity.

Virtually everybody in the eastern suburbs (say west of the Gateway) should be able to have access to good PT feeding the nearest sub-regional activity centre or the city itself.  You have the railway, several nice arterials (Wynnum Rd, Stanley Rd, Old Cleveland Rd, Chatsworth Rd, Cavendish Rd) and an ever expanding bus fleet.  There is little reason why the system cannot cope with better coverage, with a bit more investment and reorganisation.  I certainly consider that to be better value than locking the money into the ground and clawing it back in dribs and drabs.

The problem lies not in the concept of a feeder bus network - we just don't have one.  The tenor of the comments on the BT website and elsewhere makes it clear that the only serious obstacle to getting these people to change out of their car further out is because the network is crap - that can change.

[#Metro]

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Carindale&ll=-27.502876,153.105029&spn=0.006823,0.010943&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&hnear=Carindale+Queensland&gl=au&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6

Carindale is hardly a mini-CBD.

I just can't get my head around the big fuss. I really can't.

This is actually very very simple, in fact in a few months or so you could have park and ride at Carindale.

One idea could be TransLink and the Minister of Transport need to ring up Westfield enter into negotiations on allocating any "Free" or excess parking that Carindale might have and then Westfield could lease that to TransLink, for a rental fee. TransLink would charge $2-3 for parking and the shopping centre would make some money off it. No need to construct anything except for maybe a boom gate and ticket machines and signs.

Whammo. There you have your park and ride. Shopping Centre happy, TransLink happy, people who don't have feeder bus happy, 1000x faster and cheaper than feeder buses (which could be done anyway), LNP has to go off and think of something else to bang on about.

This could also happen at Westfield chermside. I hope their negotiation skills are good, because it would be best to trial first.

[Gazza]

people who don't have feeder bus happy

What about people who don't have cars etc, or even the notion of avoiding households buying the 2nd or 3rd car? They wouldn't be happy. If I lived in that area, I certainly wouldn't.

HTG lives near Chermside and puts up with the same situation right? I don't think he is happy.

The feeders will have to be done if we want to achieve our mode share targets.

Carindale is hardly a mini-CBD.

It will be in the future, so we need to take steps to support that now.
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/bccwr/lib181/chapter4_carindalemajor_lp.pdf


I agree with Surfrail anyway. We may not get 100% coverage, but check out what I did with my northside grid for instance:
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7051.0

Not 100% coverage, but definitely the vast majority (Many gaps in coverage are bushland anyway), and done mostly just using the main roads, and resorting to spaghetti routes to get the coverage.
Had I bothered to spend longer, I could have designed in a few short run feeders, and gotten basically 100% coverage.

Now, I've never gotten around to doing a network plan with 'coverage bubbles' shaded onto it, but Carindale looks like a farily easy area to tackle with respect to designing a good feeder network.

Getting back to the topic, there are two categories of potential PT users in the area.
-Passengers which could be serviced by a frequent short run feeder, but aren't, or the feeder isn't good enough (slow, infrequent, indirect, whatever)
-Passengers which cannot be effectivley serviced by a feeder, and will rely on park and ride.

Charging for parking does limit demand, and I do think park and ride has its place.
For me, the goal is (And always has been) about mode share.
But then what does everyone who is priced out demand wise of the park and ride, or cant get a space at all? We're back to square one, and these people need improved mobility in some means or another.

So if we do your 'whammo 1000x quicker than feeders' suggestion, we're basically putting passengers that could be serviced by feeders but aren't, in direct competition to use the park and ride, with people that have no choice in using park and ride.

Park and ride passengers are somewhat fickle and expensive to service....$30,000 per seat, and we can still only recover part of the cost through parking, unless we make it super expensive.

So now what we have is a choice between subsidising park and riders, and subsidising feeder bus users.

We already know that the vast majority of pax on the Brisbane network walk up, which shows if you do provide a usable service close to home, then people will just jump on.

So I think we should do as Surfrail suggests. Take all the money and get the feeders sorted out, this helps both CBD bound travelers changing to a BUZ, and locals who just wanna go to Westfield.
I reckon say 80% of the population could be covered in this manner.
Then, once people have a decent choice, we then establish park and ride to sweep up the remainder that we cant service in this manner.

This solution is the most sustainable, and maximises mode share.

[#Metro]

What about people who don't have cars etc, or even the notion of avoiding households buying the 2nd or 3rd car? They wouldn't be happy. If I lived in that area, I certainly wouldn't.

It is not either or. And I keep saying this. I'm not going to discriminate against someone who wants to get to the train or bus station just because their means of access is on four wheels. If people drive, there should be a car park and they should be asked to pay something if it tends to get full. What next? No bicycle racks because "everyone HAS to come by bus!". Or maybe ban public transport because "Walking everywhere is the most sustainable mode" and so we force everyone to walk? Yes I have gone to extremes to demonstrate my point, but the fact is there were 1000+ signatures on that petition.

By all means- go and improve the feeder buses. But it doesn't matter how much you improve them, you are never going to get 100 % coverage or 100 % patronage - there are always going to be gaps, there are always going to be areas uneconomical or difficult to serve. You can't put a BUZ up everyone's street or even most streets. It's OK to drive a car to a park and ride, it's not a crime, you're not an environmental assassin or some heretic if you have to do that just to get to the bus station!

HTG lives near Chermside and puts up with the same situation right? I don't think he is happy.

HTG happens to live near a welfare route. There is a bus near him, but it is a coverage service. Perhaps he should drive to Chermside
interchange and then catch the bus... oh no, I can't actually say that can I? Yes we could improve the service too, but that will take time. We can't BUZ everything. Double frequency = double cost.

So if we do your 'whammo 1000x quicker than feeders' suggestion, we're basically putting passengers that could be serviced by feeders but aren't, in direct competition to use the park and ride, with people that have no choice in using park and ride.

Yeah, but these people have lives and choices, maybe they DON'T want to catch the bus. Maybe they can't maybe it isn't close enough or frequent enough or whatever. Are you going to respect that or just cut their options because they don't live the way you want them to? All you have to do to encourage people is to whack a price on the car park set such that is is just under full at peak hour. That's all. So if you live near a bus stop there will still be incentive for you to catch the bus. If you don't, you get hit with a price to pay. Very simple!

Park and ride passengers are somewhat fickle and expensive to service....$30,000 per seat, and we can still only recover part of the cost through parking, unless we make it super expensive.

Absolutely disagree. The carparks already exist, therefore construction cost = $0. All they need to do is ring up Westfield and start negotiating a rental lease fee, which could be covered by parking charges.

There is absolutely no reason why you can't improve feeders, and there is no reason why it has to be one or the other.

May as well force everyone who owns a car to have a 30 minute random ignition lock delay to force everyone driving to use public transport because "it's good".

[somebody]

Absolutely disagree. The carparks already exist, therefore construction cost = $0. All they need to do is ring up Westfield and start negotiating a rental lease fee, which could be covered by parking charges.

There is absolutely no reason why you can't improve feeders, and there is no reason why it has to be one or the other.

May as well force everyone who owns a car to have a 30 minute random ignition lock delay to force everyone driving to use public transport because "it's good".

I'm sure that Westfield would want a market return on said car parks.  The current situation is about optimal, with the private sector providing parking at commercial rates, paid by the users of the service.