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Car parking - solutions?

Started by ozbob, February 21, 2008, 19:20:16 PM

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#Metro

QuoteSo in other words, it would be easier for commuters to park in a nearby side street.

No reason why you can't put a parking meter there too if that is a problem. I'm sure BCC would be open to put metering where is is required.

They have already done so for many inner city suburbs. See here interactive map ---> https://www.data.brisbane.qld.gov.au/data/dataset/brisbane-parking-meters/resource/1f951eb6-f2e8-4a8a-a5e0-98d744ea719b

Side street parking meters already surround Auchenflower Station, for example. Large parts of West End side streets also have parking meters.

It could be $2 flat fee, whole day. Cup of coffee is what - $3.90 these days?

The fact that there are so many people against it just shows how effective it will be at moderating demand. Even 50c or $1 flat fee might do the trick!




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BrizCommuter

Quote from: @Metro on March 28, 2017, 07:25:58 AM
QuoteSo in other words, it would be easier for commuters to park in a nearby side street.

No reason why you can't put a parking meter there too if that is a problem. I'm sure BCC would be open to put metering where is is required.

They have already done so for many inner city suburbs. See here interactive map ---> https://www.data.brisbane.qld.gov.au/data/dataset/brisbane-parking-meters/resource/1f951eb6-f2e8-4a8a-a5e0-98d744ea719b

Side street parking meters already surround Auchenflower Station, for example. Large parts of West End side streets also have parking meters.

It could be $2 flat fee, whole day. Cup of coffee is what - $3.90 these days?

The fact that there are so many people against it just shows how effective it will be at moderating demand. Even 50c or $1 flat fee might do the trick!
I highly doubt that residents around Oxford Park would appreciate parking metres. It would be political suicide for the local councillor. I just don't see your argument for charging for station parking.

#Metro

#1282
QuoteI highly doubt that residents around Oxford Park would appreciate parking metres. It would be political suicide for the local councillor. I just don't see your argument for charging for station parking.

Prices are highly effective at reducing over-demand for limited car parking space.

Perth started it off only at new stations and then expanded it to all stations.

Expanding car parking takes revenue ($40 000/pop). Charging for car parking makes revenue.

If there is any doubt - conduct an experimental trial.


Final Report - Parking Pricing Study, Sound Transit Seattle

http://www.fehrandpeers.com/docs/SoundTransitPricingFinalJune10.pdf

QuoteIt is worthwhile to note that experiences elsewhere show that riders are relatively insensitive to parking charges of
up to $1.50 per day. Above this charge, parking lot utilization erodes more quickly than ridership, as patrons first
find new ways to access stations (walk, bike, bus, or park off-site) before switching from rail altogether.


Riders' sensitivity to parking charges is also tempered by the total cost of their commute trip – parking charges in
Downtown Seattle and the cost of gas would factor into their decision of whether to continue riding Sounder.

QuoteThe idea of charging for parking at transit stations is starting to gain momentum in cities with newer transit
facilities that have developed a strong ridership base. Several agencies noted that they did not want to charge for
parking initially to encourage ridership. However, as the ridership continues to grow on these systems, they are
running into problems of full parking facilities.
It was noted that the economy has caused a decline in ridership
and parking demand. Therefore, parking is not as critical of a problem now as it was a year or so ago and will be
when the economy rebounds.

Expansion of car parking management is something that is progressing in Brisbane. Plenty of areas now have it:

Parking meters headed for the suburbs
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/parking-meters-headed-for-the-suburbs-20091104-hx4z.html

QuoteBrisbane City Council's Labor Opposition Leader Shayne Sutton this morning released an email, dated October 6, outlining four stages of the council's parking meter expansion plans that will see the tripling of machines around Brisbane and the city fringe, from 2900 machines in July this year to about 9100 next year.

It is the same with the major shopping centres too - people hated it when it first got introduced but now it is spreading all over Brisbane.

These issues are not new, and are repeated internationally:

Parking Pricing Technical Assessment 2016
http://denver.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/14/2016/08/20160711-Final-Report-RTD-Parking-Pricing1.pdf

QuoteSpillover/On-street Parking: Where spillover has been an issue, a number of jurisdictions within the
BART system have used this as an opportunity and meter on-street parking
, in many cases
charging more than BART does for parking in the off-street lot. One city has allocated on-street
parking revenue to pay for access and station improvements for the nearby Park and Ride.

• Parking information: BART offers estimated parking fill times on their website for each of their lots.
• Parking Revenue: BART allocates some of its parking revenue for certain station access and Park
and Ride improvements, including feeder service, real-time signage, and lighting.
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bcasey

While I agree paid and gated parking for some Park & Rides around the city could be a good idea, I think it would only really be acceptable as long as there is adequate feeder bus services to those or neighbouring stations, to give residents options on how they can access the stations.

I think our main priority should be to promote reducing the need for parking spots, rather than try to regulate the demand for it by introducing a cost to them.

Derwan

Quote from: bcasey on March 28, 2017, 11:40:57 AM
While I agree paid and gated parking for some Park & Rides around the city could be a good idea, I think it would only really be acceptable as long as there is adequate feeder bus services to those or neighbouring stations, to give residents options on how they can access the stations.

Yes - definitely.  If there are no other options, people will start adding the fare and parking costs to compare it with driving all the way.

Feeders are essentially free.  It's a matter of them being available and convenient.
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aldonius

Five hours free and with residential permits within 400m of Oxford Park station should do it.

Cazza

I know this is against most of the opinions in this thread but I believe that all Park'n'Rides should be free. We want to be encouraging the use of PT, not putting an extra tax on it. I also realise that most of the comments have been to do with over use with PnR's.

A simple way to counter this is to either extend them or build more. If no adjacent land is available, then the PnR's could be double storied (this would only work in some cases, others it just would not be practical).

One example of a Park'n'Ride that could do with a second story (that I have noticed) is The Gap Park'n'Ride (Settlement Rd). This is because it only has 49 spaces and fills up by 7:30 on some days. By West Ashgrove, approximately 1/4-1/3 of cars have come over Settlement Rd (this is an approximate based on what I have seen) from Keppera, Ferny, Upper Kedron and sometimes even Samford to avoid the Samford Rd traffic. I realise that they are choosing to drive into the city because they have passed the 1000 space car park at FG station but these extra spaces are needed.

Also, this is an idea I have been thinking about to reduce traffic in the city (these are ideas and do not take into account space or land acquisitions needed) - build massive PnR's at major transport hubs just on the outskirts of the city (e.g. Normanby, Woolloongabba etc.). This will enable people to drive to these Park n Ride's (I'm talking 5000+ spaces) so customers can catch buses and trains for the last part of the journey so city traffic is greatly reduced. This will be more appealling to a commuter not willing to catch public transport because: A- they aren't on it for as long, and B- it is much cheaper than catching a bus or train from Manly or Albany Creek to the city.

These are just my thoughts and opinions and are open to feedback/criticism (within reason :D). As I said before, these are very open ended ideas and need to be refined quite some bit.

ozbob

It has long been our position that some paid park n' ride similar to Perth is both logical and a way of funding further improvements in parking facilities. It is very expensive to provide park n' ride, and it is very finite.  The caveat for charging a nominal fee is that there is adequate feeder bus (span coverage and frequency ) and good active transport support. As this unlikely to be achieved in SEQ, face it they struggle with the notion of all door boarding on buses and other low hanging fruit, I just don't bother any more.
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#Metro

#1288
QuoteI know this is against most of the opinions in this thread but I believe that all Park'n'Rides should be free. We want to be encouraging the use of PT, not putting an extra tax on it. I also realise that most of the comments have been to do with over use with PnR's.

Hey Cazza,

Thanks for the feedback. Park and Ride charges are so effective precisely because people hate them so much.
People want both abundant and free parking but unfortunately the two are inversely correlated.

I'm not going to bore people with the reasoning, suffice to say you can read all about it here: Functions of the Price Mechanism https://www.tutor2u.net/economics/reference/functions-of-the-price-mechanism

A parking charge is not a ' tax ' any more than shopping at Coles is a  ' grocery tax ' or filling up at the servo is a ' petrol tax '. They are fee-for-service charges. Something being Government-owned does not always mean it is automatically free.

The Gap Park and Ride is a good demonstration of just how cost-inefficient and cost-ineffective park and ride approaches are in urban areas.

Price Reference - The Gap Park and Ride

$6 million dollars (A) for 85 car parking spaces (B) (2013$)

Divide (A) into (B): That is $70 000+ per car parking space.

The cost is likely to be even higher for multi-story car park because The Gap facility is all on the ground level.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/west/park-n-ride-on-waterworks-rd-to-help-commuters-use-public-transport/story-fn8m0u4y-1226581344469

And that is just for a simple car park out at The Gap. Anything that involves any kind of construction or digging is even more $$$.

To fill a single 65 seat bus, we can multiply 65 seats x $70 000/pop = $4.55 million.

For the same money, we could buy nine deluxe buses ($500 000/pop) and transport 585 people instead (Opex not included).

If a local area or group of people feel very very strongly that they are entitled to massively expanded free parking - despite falling outside 'reasonable' application - then their homes in that suburb should be locally taxed to pay for the upgrades after a local ballot is conducted. The charge could be put on their next BCC rates notice.

A typical suburb might have about 10 000 people in it, and at 2.3 people per home that is about 4347 properties (estimate only) so we are looking at a charge per house of around $4.55 million / 4347 homes = $1046 per property.

Might be $104 per year for 10 years, or $26 per quarter on the BCC rates notice. And that is just to fill 1 bus remember...

Park and Ride has a role, but it is a role reserved for very specific applications and not general purpose across the network.
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Cazza

Jeez, I didn't realise it cost that much for The Gap PnR, isn't that a massively inefficient use of money? The only real catchment for that would be Mt Nebo. They would have been better off just improving the bus turn around or upgrading the one a Settlement Rd.

I now see what you mean once you put the money into perspective-$70 000 per space is just absolutely stupid. And the council is going around looking for extra money (like the "Metro" for example). They can't just go wasting money unnecessarily and expect to still have some left. Go figure.

Although, couldn't council just buy a vacant block of land next to the train station or b/way station then just slap some guide lines painted on the ground for the parking spots? I know that cars park on a vacant lot next to Enoggera station (although I'm pretty sure it's illegal). Council could do this except they would probably get bagged out by everyone. But it would be much cheaper and more efficient. They could do this in 3 spots for example for the same price of an over the top one (like The Gap).


ozbob

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ozbob

#1292
There is zero chance of paid park and ride in SEQ IMHO at present. 

The Governments and authorities cannot organise a birthday party at the Golden Arches let alone run a public transport network effectively.

The masses will continue to park everywhere ( if not stopped)  congesting and blocking traffic flows etc, park and ride facilities will never be sufficient (how can they be at great cost and space utilisation?), all in all a total cluster-fuk!  It will only get worse with time.

It is relatively easy to control street parking.  Following campaigns years ago the streets around Oxley were setup with limited marked parking spots with time restricted parking spots as well. (Darra has had some similar treatment as well)  What precipitated the campaign was the fact the streets were at times dangerous, congested and even rubbish trucks etc. could not get through.  It is well managed now - I drive through there virtually daily picking up grand daughter from school and it is a lot better than the bad days of utter chaos!

All park and rides on the Ipswich line are basically full most days, with overflow verge parking at the usual locations Gailes, Wacol etc.

Eventually the penny might drop and proper feeder buses provided, until then congest on SEQ !
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achiruel

While I overall agree with the principle of paid parking at railway stations, I don't believe it is reasonable to introduce it into SEQ at the moment with how incredibly poor our bus-rail connections are.

FIX railfail
REFORM the bus network
THEN introduce paid parking.

I don't think introducing paid parking is a good idea when the alternative is so terrible. As for parking on streets around stations, make it 2 or 4 or even 7 hour metered parking (few people would finish their workday within that time) and enforce it regularly, have resident/visitor parking permits available to those who live nearby.

ozbob

South West News 29th March 2017 page 3

Quote
POLL HOPEFULS TO BE ASKED FOR RAIL PARK 'N' RIDE PLEDGE

SOUTHWEST residents are still no closer to an expansion of the park 'n' ride facility at Darra Rail Station despite preliminary assessments indicating it was a "suitable candidate".

A petition for a three-storey parking facility, led by the Darra Community Group, received 45 signatures and was tabled in State Parliament on March 20.

The petition noted the significant loss of parking at the station after it underwent a major upgrade in 2010 and services from Springfield joined the line.

In her response to the petition, lodged by State MP for Mt Ommaney Tarnya Smith, Transport Minister Jackie Trad said there was a "high demand" for park 'n' ride facilities in southeast Queensland.

Ms Trad wrote that a preliminary assessment indicated that Darra may be a "suitable candidate" for future expansion of its park 'n' ride facility.

But she said it would be subject to detailed planning, funding availability and a statewide prioritisation of transport infrastructure investments.

Ms Trad said it would also be influenced by the new Fairer Fares package, introduced in 2016.

Darra Community Group member Darren Butcher said it was great their voice had been heard but it wasn't action soon enough.

Mr Butcher said the group would be calling on Ms Smith and her opponents to make an election promise to deliver the parking upgrade at the next election. He said the present 206space car park was full from 7am and commuters were parking in nearby streets more than 500m away.



I have noted of late that commuter cars are now spreading down Warrender St for some distance.  No real surprise is it. 

No parking left at Richlands, poor feeder buses generally particularly for Springfield C. and Springfield. 

Ellen Grove station a dream.

All in all the usual circus.  More parking at Darra > fills > we need more parking [ repeat until infinity ]

SEQ is increasingly an excellent example or worst practice transport planning for scholars of such things hey?

:fp:
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ozbob

Quote from: achiruel on March 29, 2017, 06:35:51 AM
While I overall agree with the principle of paid parking at railway stations, I don't believe it is reasonable to introduce it into SEQ at the moment with how incredibly poor our bus-rail connections are.

FIX railfail
REFORM the bus network
THEN introduce paid parking.

...

Exactly, that has always been our position.  Once proper feeder buses established it is then reasonable for nominal parking fees for park and ride (free for disabled etc.).  As this is a very long way from happening if ever in SEQ, never going to happen, too dumb for such enlightenment.
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BrizCommuter

High frequency feeder buses would take a lot of pressure off Richlands, Darra, and Springfield station car parks. Springfield bus services are appalling.

#Metro

QuoteSOUTHWEST residents are still no closer to an expansion of the park 'n' ride facility at Darra Rail Station despite preliminary assessments indicating it was a "suitable candidate".

A petition for a three-storey parking facility, led by the Darra Community Group, received 45 signatures and was tabled in State Parliament on March 20.

Darra would benefit from the CentenaryGlider. It is worth asking where all the people are coming from.
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achiruel

Quote from: BrizCommuter on March 29, 2017, 07:14:47 AM
High frequency feeder buses would take a lot of pressure off Richlands, Darra, and Springfield station car parks. Springfield bus services are appalling.

Maybe ICC needs to contribute some more money toward public transport funding.

Let's be realistic, the areas with better public transport in Qld (I didn't say good) have some level of Council funding as well as TransLink. GCCC, BCC (maybe they contribute a little too much, giving them too much say over how it's run), SCRC. I mean rail services on the Sunshine Coast are terrible but bus services aren't too bad considering the horrible geography and population distribution they have to work with.

Arnz

^^

Apart from trunk routes 600 and 620, along with half-hourly services from 607, 610, 611, 616 & 626.  The remainder of the Sunshine Coast bus network are largely coverage or rail feeder (605, 615, 631) routes.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

ozbob



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Derwan

Quote from: achiruel on March 29, 2017, 06:35:51 AM
FIX railfail
REFORM the bus network
THEN introduce paid parking.

That sounds like a great 3-point plan!  :)
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BrizCommuter

Quote from: Derwan on March 29, 2017, 13:47:19 PM
Quote from: achiruel on March 29, 2017, 06:35:51 AM
FIX railfail
REFORM the bus network
THEN introduce paid parking.

That sounds like a great 3-point plan!  :)
I'd put CRR ahead of paid parking!

ozbob

It is understood CRR is part of fixing rail fail generally.

Not looking too bright is it?

:bo :bo :bo
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#Metro

This is how I see such a plan:

QuoteWAIT railfail
MORE WAITING the bus network
MAYBE 2090 introduce paid parking.

For example, what buses go to Oxford Park station? None I can see and none in the new network either.

If the car park is full, what should happen??

Might just have to build a few  :bi :bi
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techblitz


ozbob

Widespread paid park and ride throughout SEQ is not practical or sensible eg. Rosewood. Many outer stations have no or very few bus services etc.

It needs to be managed on site by site basis, but unless there are adequate feeder bus and active transport options it should not happen.
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#Metro

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Gazza

I think theres not really a case for widespread parking charges across SEQ at the present time. It needs a bit of time to recover from the battering of high fares and rail fail.
Feeder buses need to be fixed first, and from then, you'd only do it at the really popular park and rides, like 8MP, FG, Richlands etc initially.

Places like oxford park are small beer. The walk up catchment is within the catchment of the neighbouring stations, and the parking is only really there because there was some otherwise useless land they could squeeze it in and there is no real other practical use such as apartments.

If the parking wasn't there, patronage would be the same anyway.

Derwan

I'm agreeing with the sentiment here.  While I agree with paid parking in principle, a LOT needs to happen before it's viable here.

In other words, we should park the idea for now.  (Pun intended.)
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ozbob

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#Metro


Where does he want more parking?

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BrizCommuter

#1312
Quote from: ozbob on May 02, 2017, 14:41:03 PM


I thought it was BCC who didn't allow for station parking within 10km of CBD?

#Metro


State Budget is due on 13 June 2017
http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2017/2/15/201718-state-budget

Sounds like Schrinner wants some $$.
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SurfRail

Quote from: BrizCommuter on May 02, 2017, 15:04:16 PMI thought it was BCC who didn't allow for station parking within 10km of CBD?

TransLink.  Pre the Newman Government their policy was no new park n ride capacity inwards of 10km from the CBD.  I believe it was also no new capacity within 5km from the coastline on the Gold and Sunshine Coasts but I am open to correction.

Now, as far as I know, they don't have any official position.
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ozbob

Quote from: BrizCommuter on May 02, 2017, 15:04:16 PM
Quote from: ozbob on May 02, 2017, 14:41:03 PM


I thought it was BCC who didn't allow for station parking within 10km of CBD?

Nope.  That was a TransLink edict in the Bligh and earlier era.  That was changed under the Newman Government.

The point that Cr Schrinner is making is that it needs better overall coordination. BCC is still responsible for some, TransLink most.  Like most things in the public transport space in SEQ it is just a mess. No consistency of policy etc.
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ozbob

Couriermail Quest --> Thousands affected as commuter carpark closes at Hyperdome

QuoteCOMMUTERS at Logan will be forced to find somewhere else to park from next month.

An estimated 2000 cars are parked at the Logan Hyperdome every day by those catching buses from Logan to Brisbane, but the carpark will close in July so the shopping centre can be redeveloped.

The landowner, Queensland Investment Corporation, said the closure was crucial during construction of Logan Hyperdome.

TransLink said an alternative park 'n' ride carpark was about 1km away at Nujooloo Rd, Slacks Creek.

Bus fares into Brisbane from the Slacks Creek park 'n' ride would be cheaper as the new site is closed to Brisbane on the border of zone 2-3 and the Hyperdome is in Zone 3.

TransLink said the carpark relocation would save commuters into Brisbane up to $2.06 a trip, or $889.92 per year.

TransLink also increased buses on routes P581 and 582.

Hyperdome centre manager Rob Mansfield said the development would include a petrol station, car wash, three drive-through food retails and 75 extra car spaces.
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ozbob

Brisbanetimes --> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/sick-of-his-street-being-used-as-a-parknride-west-end-man-demands-action-20170704-gx4dw3.html]Sick of his street being used as a park-n-ride, West End man demands action

QuoteOver the past 30 years, West End resident Tim Mather has seen his street change from a quiet place where his kids could play cricket to a dangerous thoroughfare lined with cars parked bumper to bumper.

Mr Mather said traffic in the suburb was slightly out of control, but the problem was exacerbated by commuters who parked their cars in his street and then caught the bus.

Whynot Street is just two streets from Brisbane City Council's central traffic area, which enforces two-hour parking limits between 7am and 6pm Monday to Friday and 7am to noon on Saturdays for vehicles without a valid resident's parking permit.

"It's very difficult to find a park before about 10 o'clock at night. The commuters go and then people going to the restaurants park," Mr Mather said.

"It's particularly bad for us because we're just outside the two hour limit.

"There are a few times where I've had to park a few streets away to get back to the house."

Mr Mather said despite the suburb drastically changing since he had lived there, the traffic area zone had never been altered.

A council spokesman said the restricted traffic areas had been in place in the CBD and inner-city areas for more than 50 years and were designed to reduce the impacts of commuters parking out local streets where public transport is readily available.

"Brisbane City Council is committed to finding the balance between the needs of all road users and residents and understands that kerbside space is in high demand from residents, commuters, public transport vehicles, taxis, motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians," the spokesman said.

"Council welcomes feedback from residents for improvements or changes to restricted parking areas, however, will only institute new restrictions or change existing restrictions where there is overwhelming community support to do so."

In 2014 the council used the Brisbane Parking Taskforce to assess how they could manage on-street parking in the future.

This study led to the introduction of 15 minute free parking in the inner city, advisory signs to improve motorists' understanding of parking restrictions and the distribution of a parking guide to all households within restricted parking areas.

Mr Mather said the council did not seem to have any plan when it came to parking.

"I've not seen an infrastructure plan, there's just apartments going up willy nilly and the residents just aren't told. Maybe there is a plan, I'd be interested to hear," he said.

"I've got nothing really against the development it's just it seems to be happening without anyone thinking about what it's doing to the suburb.

"In some respects it's great, there's more people on the street and brought new colour but it's just crowded and there's cars rushing everywhere.

"You look onto those seas of apartment buildings and think they'll be there forever...it could have been done so much better and it's sort of too late.

"We still live with the memory of it when it used to be a quiet suburb."

The council spokesman said street parking was considered when assessing all development applications.

"Since 2014, council has created a new parking permit area in Taringa, in a residential area close to Taringa Rail Station, and in Teneriffe, to extend the existing Central Traffic Area restrictions," the spokesman said.

"These new restrictions were in direct response to community concern that residents were unable to park in their local streets due to the number of commuters.

"Council has repeatedly urged the state government to review the current allocation of park and ride facilities at public transport hubs across the city, to identify where expanded facilities are required to meet the growing number of public transport users.

"The recently released Connecting Brisbane report identifies that up to 42 per cent of all people commuting to Brisbane are travelling from other areas in south-east Queensland."
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ozbob

Brisbanetimes --> Inner-city commuter parking threatened by two-hour limit

QuoteAfter decades of commuters using inner-city suburban streets as parking lots, a change could be afoot.

In July, Fairfax Media reported West End residents' frustrations as their once quiet suburban streets attracted commuter's cars parked bumper to bumper.

While some of the suburb was listed as a central traffic area and had two-hour parking restrictions for those without residential permits, all streets south of Granville Street were a parking free-for-all.

In July, a council spokesman said the restricted traffic areas had been in place for more than 50 years and the council would only change them if there was overwhelming community support.

On Monday, the council sought to find out if that support existed.

It started delivering 6200 letters to every business and household south of Granville Street in West End and Highgate Hill to ask residents if they wanted a residential parking area to help solve the area's on-street parking issues.

Council's infrastructure chairwoman Amanda Cooper said several residents had raised concerns about the difficulty of parking in West End.

"Council strongly believes that residents should not be parked out of their suburban streets by commuters who do not make use of our public transport system," she said.

​Local Greens councillor Jonathan Sri (The Gabba) said he supported a reform of parking rules in the southern half of West End and Highgate Hill.

"We want to encourage people to travel by active and public transport," Cr Sri said.

"At the same time that council brings in these rules, they also need to be improving the frequency and reliability of public transport services."

Cr Sri said he believed different streets should be able to have different kinds of parking restrictions.

"I hope council will work with me to deliver a flexible system that has good signage and clear rules for each street," he said.

If more than 60 per cent of respondents supported the idea of a residential parking area by September 22, two-hour time limit signs would be erected for all streets south of Granville Street.

Each household would be able to apply for one residential permit and one visitor permit, and council would enforce parking time restrictions on all other vehicles.

Cr Cooper said most of the West End peninsula was already covered by designated parking laws and this was the last remaining area without restricted parking.
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ozbob

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