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Integration/Interchange and the Western Suburbs bus services

Started by #Metro, December 24, 2010, 22:42:22 PM

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#Metro

Continued from http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5129.msg43579#msg43579

QuoteYes, but that's not really comparable to a trip from the suburbs to the city though.  Such changes are a necessary evil, because no service can connect every suburb to every other suburb.

Can you post your other thoughts on the centenary services to another thread rather than continue to hijack this one please.  This may be a suitable thread: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4448.0

Or start a new one.  I have a few comments, but I'm going to continue taking this thread off topic.  I didn't mind answering a quick off topic question, but its gone on too long.

Here is the new thread! I've put it into the bus-rail integration as rail will be involved plus bus services likely.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

Gazza

Sorry, didn't mean to "highjack" the other thread. I guess buses are a complex issue and everything needs to be worked through. I figure that the conversation should just flow, and then be split off into new threads if the discussion is interesting enough  ;)

Anyway, to recap, CART (Centenary Area Rapid Transit)

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7834/cart1o.jpg


And now, my attempt at KART (Kenmore Area Rapid Transit)

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4711/kart1.jpg
Fairly self explanitory
....The dark blue route I kind of just extended down to give coverage to that bit of Fig Tree Pocket, it would go to Indro, then through the western parts of Taringa and terminate at Toowong.

#Metro

STB, would you be kind enough to give us a few hints/guides on bus route design principles?
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

Gazza

PS, why is this in Bus Rail integration? I thought what we were looking at was a bus to bus system to replace the multitude of western single seat routes that go to the CBD?

somebody

Quote from: Gazza on December 25, 2010, 20:11:48 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to "highjack" the other thread. I guess buses are a complex issue and everything needs to be worked through. I figure that the conversation should just flow, and then be split off into new threads if the discussion is interesting enough  ;)
No worries, everyone is to blame really.

As for your Centenary proposal, I expect that the residents of Jindalee would be up in arms at your suggestion.  They now need to backtrack to Mt Ommaney and interchange.

As for your Kenmore area one, sorry, but I don't think that the patronage of the 425 warrants splitting it up into two routes!  Similarly with the 445 along Fig Tree Pocket Rd.

With your version of the 433, I'm pretty sure that Wyndarra St doesn't connect to Moggill Rd.  I'm referring to the western part of the light blue route if you aren't sure.

Gazza

QuoteWith your version of the 433, I'm pretty sure that Wyndarra St doesn't connect to Moggill Rd

Stupid Brisbane road layouts! Ta for pointing that out, back to the drawing board! Silly mistake on my part.

QuoteAs for your Kenmore area one, sorry, but I don't think that the patronage of the 425 warrants splitting it up into two routes!  Similarly with the 445 along Fig Tree Pocket Rd.
Forgive me, I don't know my routes off by heart.
I basically just started from scratch, and plotted based on catchment areas, trying to be direct as possible.
Anyway, had a look at the 425...Wow, what an ugh route. Would hate to be the one boarding from the end due to the big horseshoe you have to do
The basic gist of all my proposals is to be demand inducive
The way I see it, Brisbane has pretty uniform density in the 'burbs, so if BUZes to places like The Gap or Moggil can support a 15 minute service, then these sort of routes should be able to too.
You would be demand inducive by making routes more direct (by eliminating stuff like big horseshoes, hence reducing journey times and that feeling of going slow and weaving everywhere that turns people off bus travel) and by increasing frequency by lopping the Indro CBD stretch of routes (so the bus turns around sooner, and can do another run)

Quote
I expect that the residents of Jindalee would be up in arms at your suggestion.  They now need to backtrack to Mt Ommaney and interchange.
I guess do as Tramtrain said and extend those ones Indro. Will concede this.

Fantasy file here........ Would be nice if the road layout wasn't so crappy at Jindallee though
Could be a great spot for a Bus interchange (And hence you would finish those two routes there and switch to the BUZ)


somebody

With the 425, if you live on the outer reaches, but too far to walk down to the 444, you are still able to do what you would have to do in your scenario and catch a bus along Bielby Rd (IIRC) to Moggill Rd and get the 444.  I expect there are few takers of this option at present, which would be the only option in your proposal.

Sorry, should have explained where the 425 goes.

#Metro

Edenbrooke!
Brookfield!
Try putting buses in there = impossible!
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

Golliwog

Also with your CART plan I think those over in 17 Mile Rocks and like like wouldn't be a big fan of not having a bus route. They are probably (for the most part anyway) closer to Oxley/Darra station for CBD trips but for others, DFO and Mt Ommanney shopping center are big drawcards.
There is no silver bullet... but there is silver buckshot.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

somebody

A further comment on your Centenary area routes, the red route has a small dormitory suburb component, so I see a low patronage on that route.

Gazza

QuoteA further comment on your Centenary area routes, the red route has a small dormitory suburb component, so I see a low patronage on that route.
Sorry?
The Red route is intended to just be the line haul BUZ, running from the City to Darra Station, via Mt Ommaney.
Quote
Also with your CART plan I think those over in 17 Mile Rocks and like like wouldn't be a big fan of not having a bus route
.
Apoligies, was focusing on sorting out the areas west of the freeway.

somebody

Quote from: Gazza on December 26, 2010, 08:55:30 AM
Sorry?
I'm not flaming you, I'm pointing out legitimate concerns.

Quote from: Gazza on December 26, 2010, 08:55:30 AM
The Red route is intended to just be the line haul BUZ, running from the City to Darra Station, via Mt Ommaney.
Yes, well if the other routes extend from Jindalee into Indro, that is the way people will get there, rather than transfer to the red route.  Perhaps if they terminate at Indro and the red route continues to the city via Moggill and Coro, Riverhills pax may transfer to the red route, but not all probably.  Perhaps the red route will go via Milton Rd.

To be honest, I am very comfortable with what has been put forward by RailBoT for the 450/453/454 replacements.  Only controversial aspects are one route going via Milton Rd and the other continuing from Indooroopilly into the city via Coronation Drive.  Requires an interchange for some people to reach Indro shops at Jindalee, Mt Ommaney or Fig Tree Pocket, but if both are BUZes, it is relatively easy.

Quote from: Gazza on December 26, 2010, 08:55:30 AM
was focusing on sorting out the areas west of the freeway.
Yes, I was assuming that the 468 still runs.

Gazza

Another go at the Kenmore area routes...I've perhaps softened it a bit, and had all 3 feeders run right to Indro.
Intention with the dark blue route is that one could ride its length if they were fully opposed to interchanging. But the intention is that people would board and ride only as far as the first point it crosses Moggil Rd, and then change to a 444.

Again, the overriding intention is that existing 400 series routes in the area are completely forgotten, save for the 444, and everyone would just change to the 444 at some point, and use that to reach the city. Dropping the Indro-City leg of the current routes saves about 7km on what is an often congested route, so buses can be turned around sooner, and this is how you achieve higher frequency (4 bph) on these 3 feeders.


http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/8476/karttake2.jpg

somebody

A much better attempt there Gazza at first glance.  Might be a bit hypothetical, just because people don't like change unless there is a clear benefit.  I suppose you could try to sell the frequency increase, but I feel it could be a hard sell.

#Metro

Looks good Gazza, but, see that dark blue route- its really windy. IMHO some bus shelters where the big dots are should be upgraded with special livery and maybe bus bays as "interchange" stops  so that people jump off the bus and on to 444, otherwise they will be snaking around the back parts of Chapel Hill and Brookside.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

Gazza

QuoteLooks good Gazza, but, see that dark blue route- its really windy. IMHO some bus shelters where the big dots are should be upgraded with special livery and maybe bus bays as "interchange" stops  so that people jump off the bus and on to 444, otherwise they will be snaking around the back parts of Chapel Hill and Brookside.
.....
QuoteBut the intention is that people would board and ride only as far as the first point it crosses Moggil Rd, and then change to a 444.
Indeed, the green dots would be superstops with full shelters, PIDS, proper lighting and CCTV.

You'd just board in the direction that gets you to Moggil Rd most directly so the majority of customers would perhaps ride 1/5 of the total route length, at most (never have to travel more than 3km from Moggil Rd, Total route is 14.5 km). This would actually mean most seats would be occupied multiple times per trip, with inbound and outbound passengers on the same bus.

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