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Sunshine Coast Line draft 2011 timetable feedback thread

Started by ozbob, November 19, 2010, 09:21:08 AM

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mufreight

The petition is admitedly poorly worded, the levels of service as provided under the current timetable are a minimum level of service, what is required is an increase in the levels of service (frequency, capacity and toilet equiped trains) not a degrading of the levels of service as it would appear the proposed timetable will provide.   :pr  :lo and if the politicians dont accept the rational of this then at the next election for them the story is simple on your  :bi mate and keep going.

ozbob

From the Sunshine Coast Daily click here!

Sunshine Coast trains forum

QuoteSunshine Coast trains forum

3rd December 2010

SUNSHINE Coast commuters facing earlier starts and later returns under revised rail timetable are encouraged to register their concerns at a Translink forum.

The Coast is pushing for better train services -and an eventual link to Maroochydore.

SUNSHINE Coast commuters facing earlier starts and later returns under the revised rail timetable are encouraged to register their concerns at a Translink forum on Saturday.

Newly appointed LNP Shadow Minister for Public Transport Tracy Davis will join Member for Glass House Andrew Powell at the community consultation forum in Nambour tomorrow.

Ms Davis said the new timetable failed to take into account common start and finish times for Sunshine Coast residents who used the train to commute to work in Brisbane.

"Commuters who catch these train services have been neglected by this long-term Labor Government for a long time.

"Now Translink's new timetable will actually lengthen their journeys and force commuters to catch earlier trains in the morning and later trains in the evening."

Problems with the timetable identified by commuters and Rail Back on Track include:

·  The 5:16pm Nambour service now departs Central Station at 5:04pm, which means office workers finishing work at 5pm cannot catch this service.

· The current 5:43pm service has been moved back to a 5:47pm departure time. This means commuters who already have the longest haul in the entire network face a 45 minute longer wait to catch their train home.

· The morning Nambour service that currently arrives at Central at 8:16am will arrive at 8:26am, allowing workers who start at 8:30am no time to get to work. This problem also occurs with the 7:42am/8:02am service.

· Reducing the number of stations bypassed on express services from 20 to 13 on most morning services has added to travel time.

· A two hour gap between Nambour services on weeknights.

"Sunshine Coast commuters have the longest journeys on the rail network," Ms Davis said.

"Changes to the timetable have a huge impact on commuters who rely on this service for getting to and from work.

"If the Bligh Labor Government wants to encourage South East Queenslanders onto public transport, they have to ensure that our trains are user friendly — appropriate timetables are a big part of this."

Mr Powell, who has the majority of Sunshine Coast railway stations in his electorate, has sponsored an epetition and a paper petition to preserve the current timetable.

"There are a limited number of services running north of Caboolture, these should be as convenient as possible for Sunshine Coast commuters," Mr Powell said.

"If it is too hard for commuters to catch the earlier or later trains, people will elect to drive to Brisbane instead.

"It is in everyone's interest to have a train timetable that encourages commuters to use the service.

"Minister Nolan should listen to Sunshine Coast commuters' concerns and help them arrive in Brisbane at a reasonable time to start work, and return home with minimal delay."

Commuters are encouraged to attend the community consultation session at the Nambour Community Centre, Cnr Shearer and James streets from 10am to 12pm on Saturday or share their concerns at http://ow.ly/3j97L

The epetition can be signed at http://ow.ly/3j97k
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ozbob

Sent to all outlets:

4th December 2010

Greetings,

Today in Nambour  a 'Timetable Information Session' concerning the proposed changes to the Sunshine Coast Line is to be held.

It is important that the timings for the limited services be set at times that provide the maximum utility to commuters.  This is not the case for the draft timetable with poor timings and too many gaps in services. A good turn up of disenchanted rail commuters in Nambour today is assured as a consequence of this draft timetable not resonating well with the public.

The underlying issue however is the failure to provide proper rail infrastructure upgrades over a long time on the Sunshine Coast line.

In order for the Sunshine Coast line to achieve a reasonable frequency  it needs infrastructure upgrades  to remove choke points now.

A looming major choke point is the lack of track capacity into Petrie, to enable a long term frequency increase a third track is needed between Lawnton and Petrie,  and with the extra traffic when the line to Kippa-Ring is built and comes into service, this will also then require the line from Northgate to Petrie to be four tracks.

It would be logical when building the new bridge across the North Pine river needed to provide the third track to cater for the four tracks from the outset.

There is sufficient capacity between Petrie and Beerburrum in the short term but beyond Beerburrum the single track and poor alignment with its numerous speed restricted curves inhibits major increases in frequency. If the Government is unable to commit to the resuming the delayed Beerburrum to Landsborough duplication immediately, some staged upgrades could be done. This could be achieved by the duplication and realignment of the line between Beerburrum and Beerwah and between a point about halfway between Mooloolah and  Palmwoods, and between Nambour and Kulangoor, these passing lanes would enable a reliable frequency of operation with movements in opposing directions or overtaking movements on a frequency of some three trains per hour as a minimum, with some creative timetabling and fleeting of trains this could be raised to at least five or six movements per hour, possibly more with improved signalling, and would enable an hourly frequency to and from Nambour to be easily achieved.

The Sunshine Coast line is a major rail link.  It is important from the point of view of not only commuter rail services, but it is also a major freight and long haul passenger conduit, and in times of looming oil crises is an important strategic link with defence implications.  A failure to properly upgrade this critical rail corridor now will have profound adverse outcomes down the track not only for Queensland but also Australia.

See you in Nambour!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org


Quote

On 3/12/2010 7:31 AM, RAIL Back On Track Admin wrote:

Greetings,

All Sunshine Coast Commuters and community minded citizens are reminded that there is a Community Information Session concerning the draft rail timetables in Nambour on Saturday 4th December.  Venue  Nambour Community Centre, Corner of Shearer and James Streets, Nambour, 10am to 12noon.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

========================

On 2/12/2010 2:43 AM, RAIL Back On Track Admin wrote:

Greetings,

All Sunshine Coast Commuters and community minded citizens are reminded that there is a Community Information Session concerning the draft rail timetables in Nambour on Saturday 4th December.  Venue  Nambour Community Centre, Corner of Shearer and James Streets, Nambour, 10am to 12noon.

For your information:

Sunshine Coast population hit 323,400 at 30 June 2009.
Gold Coast population 515,200 at 30 June 2009.
(Source: ABS 3218.0 - Regional Population Growth, Australia, 2008-09)

So the the Sunshine Coast has 62.77% of the Gold Coast population at 30 June 2009.

Do they have 62.77% of the Gold Coast services?  No they don't. the present commuter rail service on the Sunshine Coast line is actually a national disgrace.

A little bit of timetable tweaking is needed on the draft timetable, but the fundamental issue is the major neglect of timely progressive infrastructure upgrades.

We now question the ability of policy planners in the Department of Main Roads and Transport as to their capability.  The Sunshine Coast line is testament to failed planning over a long period.

What is needed is the immediate recommencement of the duplication from Beerburrum to Landsborough, with additional track upgrades between Landsborough and Nambour to allow time and cost effective passing of trains.  Proper stabling facilities need to established at Yandina.  Forget stop gap solutions get it right for goodness sake.  We are tired of the mediocrity, is after all OUR MONEY that is being squandered.  Stabling established at Yandina would allow Nambour station to be fixed up with additional platforms.  The money to be spent on Nambour station for a cosmetic tart up beggars belief.   What is needed is the removal of the stabling at Nambour and a proper station upgrade, to capture the commercial value of the precinct.  It is not rocket science.

There is no doubt the Sunshine Coast commuters do have a valid axe to grind.

Continued arrogance and non performance will no doubt be rewarded down the track.

Best wishes
Robert

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org


========================

Media release 23 November 2010 re-released 2 December 2010

SEQ: New timetable for the Sunshine Coast line leaves commuters behind

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has said the draft 2011 timetable for the Sunshine Coast line needs major revisions and additions (1,2,3).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"RAIL Back On Track has long been concerned with the poor rail service north of Caboolture (1).  The draft Sunshine Coast line timetable does nothing to ease those concerns (2).  In some respects the draft timetable is actually worse for commuters than the present one.  This is not acceptable.

Major issues identified are:

1. Moving the 5:16pm Nambour service ex Central back to 5:04pm means no 5pm office worker can catch it.

2. Moving the  current afternoon 5:43pm service to later still (5:47pm) for the longest haul commuters in the entire network, so that there is now a 50% longer (3/4 hour) gap between this and the previous (5:04pm) service.

3. Moving  the morning service such that it used to arrive in the CBD from Nambour at 8:16am now arrives at 8:26am with no time for an 8:30am starter to get to work in time.

4. Moving  the morning service such that it used to arrive in the CBD from Nambour at 7:42am now arrives at 8:02am with no time for an 8:00am starter to get to work in time.

5. Reducing the express pattern from 20 stations by passed down to 13 on most services to those who travel furthest and by far the longest, with two services (during peak times) in each direction which only pass 9 stations.

6. Failure to schedule a Nambour service from Central each weeknight between the 7.34pm and 9.34pm services. This is a two hour gap!  A Nambour service is needed to depart Central at 8.34pm.

7. A failure to guarantee trains with toilets on all services north of Caboolture. The Sunshine Coast line should have the priority for IMU trains.

"The new early morning services out of Nambour at 5:10am and 5:38am (which replace the current 5:26am) are welcomed by those who need to arrive in the CBD early, by 7:02am and 7:36am respectively.  The extension of the weekday Cooroy service to Gympie North also means that there are now two daily return services to Gympie North Mondays to Fridays."

"It is critical to note that the limited number of rail services north of Caboolture means that those services that are available need to be very carefully timed to ensure the maximum utility to commuters.  The draft 2011 timetable does not do that."

"In the medium term, another innovation that would allow even more frequent services between Brisbane and Nambour on the restricted  'third world' rail infrastructure between Nambour and Beerburrum would be be to put shuttle services on between Nambour and Gympie North.  This would allow a higher frequency of service between Nambour and Gympie North and allow more express services south of Nambour as more train paths would be available. The ICE trains would be removed from the peak timetable through the rail choke points and this would then allow more uniform operating patterns hence improved frequency and capacity."

"The failure to continue with the duplication of the railway line from Beerburrum to Landsborough is now impacting severely. Another major transport bungle in south-east Queensland."

References:

1. 10 Oct 2010: Sunshine coast or congestion coast? Please don't miss the train! http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4615.0

2. http://www.translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/queensland-rail-timetable-changes/caboolture-and-sunshine-coast-line

3. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4880.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
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ozbob

Onboard EMU03 (3 car set only) the 6.29am ex Central for Nambour!  Legs crossed!  :lo
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Fares_Fair

G'Day Bob,

Hope you have your umbrella with you, it's raining in up here at the moment.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.
Regards,
Fares_Fair


ozbob

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Hi Ho! Inbound! on IMU178, hey has a toilet!  :-c  Now at Woombye  :lo
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somebody

Quote from: ozbob on December 04, 2010, 01:30:24 AM
In order for the Sunshine Coast line to achieve a reasonable frequency  it needs infrastructure upgrades  to remove choke points now.
That may be, but is that the issue we need to focus on now?

Fares_Fair

Hello somebody,

Ultimately, I think that they are inextricably linked IMHO.

But yes, first the timetable issues need to be addressed.
Since this is the first stage of a major network overhaul (timetable wise).

QR do admit that infrastructure is an issue for us on the Sunshine Coast.
I asked them why we have so many Rail buses ?
What does that tell us about the network. It is obviously at over capacity.

Weekdays, currently we have 26 rail bus services daily.
We have 27 train services daily.
Rail buses account for virtually 50% of them (for Caboolture to Nambour leg and return)

Of those 26 rail buses, 13 have some kind of express leg in them and 13 are all stops.
The 13 all stop rail buses take 1 1/2 hours to go from Caboolture to Nambour.
You can drive it in 30 minutes, the time for the rail bus is treble drive time.
Not much incentive for PT don't you think?

In short, yes we do need to push it now as it will take years to build and catch up to what is required IMHO.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.
Regards,
Fares_Fair


david

Perhaps the alternative solution to running trains all stations from Northgate to Bowen Hills is to have them ALL running express from Northgate to Bowen Hills (maybe with a stop at Eagle Junction) during the core peak times of 7:30am-8:30am and 4:30pm-5:30pm?

Passenger alighting/boarding patterns would need to be examined closely, but this might just work. Shorncliffe/Doomben trains would need to be ramped up in the next set of timetable reviews to compensate though.

somebody

I'm fairly sure that idea has already appeared, probably on the first page of the thread.

A few of the Petrie trains could also use the suburbans to provide the all stopping service.  And don't say there would be conflicting moves, because these apply anyway.

Golliwog

It has been suggested and I think it may be the common ground that might be eventually found. The problem is that to up the frequency of the Shorncliffe line involves changes to all the other lines that use the suburbans, hence to 2 stage timetable change, and at least 6 months if not longer would be far too long for the passengers using the intermediate stations (not to mention actual Shorncliffe line commuters who would get squished at Northgate) to wait for the problem to be solved. Perhaps a 3rd stage once the Shorncliffe line has a higher and more constant frequency to change the Sunshine Coast/Caboolture trains so the all run express from Northgate to Bowen Hills? IMO it wouldn't be much of a change and should work seeing as you would just be shortening the running times of all the services so there shouldn't be any conflicts (bar possibly freight)
There is no silver bullet... but there is silver buckshot.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

ozbob

Sent to all outlets:

5th December 2010

Greetings,

The was a good turn out of citizens for the Timetable Information Session in Nambour yesterday (the 4th) probably around 150 to 200 people attended.

At the Timetable Information Session at Darra which I attended last weekend there was less than 10 people.  There is not too much wrong with the draft timetable for the Ipswich line, the issues are mainly with the Caboolture and Sunshine Coast Lines draft timetables as these figures would suggest.

The concerns we raised  in our media release of the 23rd November (below) were confirmed by many.

It was noteworthy that Transport Staff did indicate that some changes to the draft timetable are possible with respect to the timings, and that trains with toilets would be on all services after June 2011.

Yesterday on the journey from Central to Nambour, the 6.29am ex Central Nambour service the train was EMU 03.  This train does not have a toilet.  On my return journey last afternoon/evening the train was IMU 178, toilet equipped.

One would have thought that on  a Saturday morning there are not the large number of peak services and IMUs should be available for the Nambour services.

Tracy Davis MP, Shadow Minister for Public Transport and Member for Aspley, Andrew Powell MP, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Mental Health, Drug Strategy and Health Personnel and Member for Glass House and Mark McArdle MP, Shadow Minister for Health and Member for Caloundra also attended the session.

People present at the session did indicate that they would like a forum so that Transport staff could further explain the timetable and answer questions.

Moves are under way to organise a forum and QR and TransLink staff will be invited.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org




QuoteOn 4/12/2010 1:26 AM, RAIL Back On Track Admin wrote:
Greetings,

Today in Nambour  a 'Timetable Information Session' concerning the proposed changes to the Sunshine Coast Line is to be held.

It is important that the timings for the limited services be set at times that provide the maximum utility to commuters.  This is not the case for the draft timetable with poor timings and too many gaps in services. A good turn up of disenchanted rail commuters in Nambour today is assured as a consequence of this draft timetable not resonating well with the public.

The underlying issue however is the failure to provide proper rail infrastructure upgrades over a long time on the Sunshine Coast line.

In order for the Sunshine Coast line to achieve a reasonable frequency  it needs infrastructure upgrades  to remove choke points now.

A looming major choke point is the lack of track capacity into Petrie, to enable a long term frequency increase a third track is needed between Lawnton and Petrie,  and with the extra traffic when the line to Kippa-Ring is built and comes into service, this will also then require the line from Northgate to Petrie to be four tracks.

It would be logical when building the new bridge across the North Pine river needed to provide the third track to cater for the four tracks from the outset.

There is sufficient capacity between Petrie and Beerburrum in the short term but beyond Beerburrum the single track and poor alignment with its numerous speed restricted curves inhibits major increases in frequency. If the Government is unable to commit to the resuming the delayed Beerburrum to Landsborough duplication immediately, some staged upgrades could be done. This could be achieved by the duplication and realignment of the line between Beerburrum and Beerwah and between a point about halfway between Mooloolah and  Palmwoods, and between Nambour and Kulangoor, these passing lanes would enable a reliable frequency of operation with movements in opposing directions or overtaking movements on a frequency of some three trains per hour as a minimum, with some creative timetabling and fleeting of trains this could be raised to at least five or six movements per hour, possibly more with improved signalling, and would enable an hourly frequency to and from Nambour to be easily achieved.

The Sunshine Coast line is a major rail link.  It is important from the point of view  of not only commuter rail services, but it is also a major freight and long haul passenger conduit, and in times of looming oil crises is an important strategic link with defence implications.  A failure to properly upgrade this critical rail corridor now will have profound adverse outcomes down the track not only for Queensland but also Australia.

See you in Nambour!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org



On 3/12/2010 7:31 AM, RAIL Back On Track Admin wrote:
Greetings,

All Sunshine Coast Commuters and community minded citizens are reminded that there is a Community Information Session concerning the draft rail timetables in Nambour on Saturday 4th December.  Venue  Nambour Community Centre, Corner of Shearer and James Streets, Nambour, 10am to 12noon.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org



On 2/12/2010 2:43 AM, RAIL Back On Track Admin wrote:
Greetings,

All Sunshine Coast Commuters and community minded citizens are reminded that there is a Community Information Session concerning the draft rail timetables in Nambour on Saturday 4th December.  Venue  Nambour Community Centre, Corner of Shearer and James Streets, Nambour, 10am to 12noon.

For your information:

Sunshine Coast population hit 323,400 at 30 June 2009.
Gold Coast population 515,200 at 30 June 2009.
(Source: ABS 3218.0 - Regional Population Growth, Australia, 2008-09)

So the the Sunshine Coast has 62.77% of the Gold Coast population at 30 June 2009.

Do they have 62.77% of the Gold Coast services?  No they don't. the present commuter rail service on the Sunshine Coast line is actually a national disgrace.

A little bit of timetable tweaking is needed on the draft timetable, but the fundamental issue is the major neglect of timely progressive infrastructure upgrades.

We now question the ability of policy planners in the Department of Main Roads and Transport as to their capability.  The Sunshine Coast line is testament to failed planning over a long period.

What is needed is the immediate recommencement of the duplication from Beerburrum to Landsborough, with additional track upgrades between Landsborough and Nambour to allow time and cost effective passing of trains.  Proper stabling facilities need to established at Yandina.  Forget stop gap solutions get it right for goodness sake.  We are tired of the mediocrity, is after all OUR MONEY that is being squandered.  Stabling established at Yandina would allow Nambour station to be fixed up with additional platforms.  The money to be spent on Nambour station for a cosmetic tart up beggars belief.   What is needed is the removal of the stabling at Nambour and a proper station upgrade, to capture the commercial value of the precinct.  It is not rocket science.

There is no doubt the Sunshine Coast commuters do have a valid axe to grind.

Continued arrogance and non performance will no doubt be rewarded down the track.

Best wishes
Robert

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org


========================

Media release 23 November 2010 re-released 2 December 2010

SEQ: New timetable for the Sunshine Coast line leaves commuters behind

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has said the draft 2011 timetable for the Sunshine Coast line needs major revisions and additions (1,2,3).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"RAIL Back On Track has long been concerned with the poor rail service north of Caboolture (1).  The draft Sunshine Coast line timetable does nothing to ease those concerns (2).  In some respects the draft timetable is actually worse for commuters than the present one.  This is not acceptable.

Major issues identified are:

1. Moving the 5:16pm Nambour service ex Central back to 5:04pm means no 5pm office worker can catch it.

2. Moving the  current afternoon 5:43pm service to later still (5:47pm) for the longest haul commuters in the entire network, so that there is now a 50% longer (3/4 hour) gap between this and the previous (5:04pm) service.

3. Moving  the morning service such that it used to arrive in the CBD from Nambour at 8:16am now arrives at 8:26am with no time for an 8:30am starter to get to work in time.

4. Moving  the morning service such that it used to arrive in the CBD from Nambour at 7:42am now arrives at 8:02am with no time for an 8:00am starter to get to work in time.

5. Reducing the express pattern from 20 stations by passed down to 13 on most services to those who travel furthest and by far the longest, with two services (during peak times) in each direction which only pass 9 stations.

6. Failure to schedule a Nambour service from Central each weeknight between the 7.34pm and 9.34pm services. This is a two hour gap!  A Nambour service is needed to depart Central at 8.34pm.

7. A failure to guarantee trains with toilets on all services north of Caboolture. The Sunshine Coast line should have the priority for IMU trains.

"The new early morning services out of Nambour at 5:10am and 5:38am (which replace the current 5:26am) are welcomed by those who need to arrive in the CBD early, by 7:02am and 7:36am respectively.  The extension of the weekday Cooroy service to Gympie North also means that there are now two daily return services to Gympie North Mondays to Fridays."

"It is critical to note that the limited number of rail services north of Caboolture means that those services that are available need to be very carefully timed to ensure the maximum utility to commuters.  The draft 2011 timetable does not do that."

"In the medium term, another innovation that would allow even more frequent services between Brisbane and Nambour on the restricted  'third world' rail infrastructure between Nambour and Beerburrum would be be to put shuttle services on between Nambour and Gympie North.  This would allow a higher frequency of service between Nambour and Gympie North and allow more express services south of Nambour as more train paths would be available. The ICE trains would be removed from the peak timetable through the rail choke points and this would then allow more uniform operating patterns hence improved frequency and capacity."

"The failure to continue with the duplication of the railway line from Beerburrum to Landsborough is now impacting severely. Another major transport bungle in south-east Queensland."

References:

1. 10 Oct 2010: Sunshine coast or congestion coast? Please don't miss the train! http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4615.0

2. http://www.translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/queensland-rail-timetable-changes/caboolture-and-sunshine-coast-line

3. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4880.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

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ozbob

From the Sunshine Coast Daily click here!

QR timetable changes anger locals

QuoteQR timetable changes anger locals

Roxanne Mccarty-O'Kane | 5th December 2010

VIVIEN Csallo will have to spend an extra hour commuting to work in Brisbane if proposed changes to the Queensland Rail timetable are approved.

Audrey Browne says it will add another two hours to her daily commute between Nambour and the city.

And they are not alone.

Hundreds of Coast commuters say the proposed changes will make their lives a nightmare.

Ms Csallo catches the 6.25am train from Landsborough every day and gets into Roma Street Station with just enough time to get to work by 8am.

Under the proposed changes, she will have to leave 20 minutes earlier at 6.06am to arrive at the same time.

But the real kicker for hundreds of Coast commuters are changes to the peak return services from Brisbane – mainly those around 5pm.

When Ms Csallo works until 5pm, she has been able to reach Roma Street in time to catch the 5.16pm train.

But with the proposed changes, this service will leave just a few minutes after 5pm, making it impossible.

Those who miss that service will have to wait another 45 minutes for the next one.

"People who don't have flexible work hours will spend a lot longer getting to and from work," Ms Csallo said.

"At the moment my husband and I have one car and he leaves the same time I do, drops me off and picks me up at the station.

"I have heard of people who have kids who won't have time to drop them off at day care and still make it to the train station and others who have to add an extra half hour on to their journey each way as they are coming from Caloundra or Maroochydore.

"Some people might have to drive to Caboolture and park and ride there, but the carparks are already incredibly full by 7am."

Ms Csallo said the Coast had once again missed out as the majority of the new rail timetable improvements went from Ipswich as far north as Caboolture.

"It seems they have a much better service in Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast is always last on the list. City people get six-minute services while the rest of us get screwed," she said.

Tempers flared yesterday at a community forum called to allow Sunshine Coast commuters to discuss the proposed changes.

QR and Translink representatives faced a barrage of unhappy residents as they discovered the forum-style meeting at Nambour Community Centre would not mean an open question-and-answer session.

Instead, they were directed to speak one-on-one with staff and leave their details for further communication.

Jeff Addison, a regular on the trains for the past decade, said the changes were simply not good enough.

"There was no consultation before this and now they are doing little to address our concerns," Mr Addison said.

The Rail Back on Track group member said the proposed changes would affect the lives of hundreds of people who relied on public transport to get to work each day.

Nambour commuter Ms Browne said she would have to endure an extra two hours of commuting each day.

"At the moment I leave for work at 5.30am and get back at 6.30pm," she said.

"If these changes go through, it will be a case of get up, go to work, come home and go to bed then get up again. There will be no work-life balance."

Translink strategy and planning director Sally Stannard said feedback from the forum had been consistent.

"The same issues are affecting the majority of the people," she said.

"It will now be a matter of taking that information back and using it with feedback gathered at other forums to come up with an overall plan addressing these concerns.

"This is definitely a draft timetable and the reason it is so specific is that people needed all of the information in order to properly comment."

MOST COMMON CONCERNS

The 5.16pm Nambour service now departs Central Station at 5.04pm, which means office workers finishing work at 5pm cannot catch this service

The morning Nambour service that arrives at Central at 8.16am will arrive at 8.26am, allowing workers who start at 8.30am no time to get to work. This problem also occurs with the 7.42am/8.02am service

Reducing the number of stations bypassed on express services from 20 to 13 on most morning services has added to travel time

A two-hour gap between Nambour services on week nights
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#Metro

Quote"I have heard of people who have kids who won't have time to drop them off at day care and still make it to the train station and others who have to add an extra half hour on to their journey each way as they are coming from Caloundra or Maroochydore.

QR Commuter Childcare -- don't laugh, there could be a very big market for this. $$$

Quote"Some people might have to drive to Caboolture and park and ride there, but the carparks are already incredibly full by 7am."
Looks like BRT is required to the station. More services..
I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

ozbob


Quote
QR Commuter Childcare -- don't laugh, there could be a very big market for this. $$$

And they could add a guarantee, no extra charges for late pick up due to delayed rail services ..   :P
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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Stillwater


When it comes to the Sunshine Coast Line, there is the rhetoric of government promises and the stark reality facing commuters.  Compare the commuter experience with this view of the world, as espoused by Premier Anna Bligh -- http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/beating-the-rat-race-at-160kmh-20100830-1479g.html

Arnz

First of all, it was nice catching up with STB and meeting Bob on Saturday.

Which on a related note, I've brought up a few "minor" ideas in regards to services being equipped with toilets.  The new SMUs and IMUs have the same front/exterior, but both the SMU and IMUs doesn't distinguish on the exterior whether if the train has a toilet onboard, since both new types of trains have the same front.  There are signs on the IMU interiors indicating where the toilets are though.

My suggestion is to place a toilet logo on the front of the IMU160s (similar to how the Wheelchair logo is on the front of the BT low floor buses), and also a smaller toilet logo at the doors of the IMU160 to show/indicate that there are "toilets" onboard the train.  

I can't remember how many times (on the number of times the SMU260s operate up to Nambour in the afternoon peak) that someone asks "Where is the toilet?", only to be told that there are no toilets aboard (despite being a 'new' -SMU- train)
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

ozbob

Great to catch up with you too Arnz, great suggestion about clearly indicating the toilet equipped trains, new SMUs and IMUs particularly look much the same to most.

Just completed a follow up interview with ABC Radio Sunshine Coast FM on the breakfast show.  Thanks for the support in getting the message out John and all at Coast FM.  As was evidenced by the turn out in Nambour in Saturday this is a most important matter, particularly the timings.  During the interview I again gave examples of the timing impacts, mentioned the commitment to toilet equipped trains, and suggested that a service leaving Brisbane around 5.20pm additional to the projected services, as well as another at 8.34pm week nights is needed.

John Stokes sang a few verses of the song composed by a Sunshine Coast commuter! :D

Also mentioned the positives e.g., Gympie North and the additional morning service.

I was also given a broad assurance on Saturday at Nambour that the express pattern would be looked at, no guarantee on that but at least the feedback has been solid, a long journey is being made significantly longer.

So we need to keep feedback going in if you couldn't make a meeting.

:lo
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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Stillwater

Feedback in the form of a form letter will be sent today.
Some people took opportunity to make additional comments.  Here's a selection:
"Trains should run 24/7" ... "More six-car trains" ... "Live on the Gold Coast, left 7.50am, arrived Australia Zoo at noon – not good enough" ... 'Significant change will be possible only when the Beerburrum-Nambour duplication is delivered – 2031 target date is ridiculous' ... ' the 6.08am service from Nambour is a retrograde step – it gets to Central too late for people who start work at 8am' ... 'Train travel should be a more attractive alternative to driving – Central to Elimbah non-stop would achieve this' ... 'Toilets important – it may be the only free seat on the train if people get sick of standing' ...

Stillwater


New Shadow Minister for Public Transport, Tracy Davis, interviewed on ABC radio this morning, said she was listening to people on Saturday.  However, she side-stepped two questions about whether the LNP would (1) speed up a start on the CAMCOs Corridor and (2) bring forward duplication to Nambour.  She replied that she was concerned about the provision of services to commuters; matters of infrastructure were for Fiona Simpson to answer.  Some clarification of division of responsibility among LNP spokespersons is required, I believe.

colinw

I can but repeat my assertion that CAMCOS is the new Kippa-Ring.  A much promised line that will be dangled before the electors of the Sunshine Coast at every election, only to be snatched away again as George St commences another 3 years slumber.

#Metro

QuoteShe replied that she was concerned about the provision of services to commuters; matters of infrastructure were for Fiona Simpson to answer.  Some clarification of division of responsibility among LNP spokespersons is required, I believe.

Sounds like "Shadow Minister for dealing with TransLink" and a "Shadow Minister for dealing with DTMR on PT infrastructure"

Why are they doing this? It's like having a shadow minister for roads and a separate one for traffic lights.
I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

#Metro

#103
QuoteI can but repeat my assertion that CAMCOS is the new Kippa-Ring.  A much promised line that will be dangled before the electors of the Sunshine Coast at every election, only to be snatched away again as George St commences another 3 years slumber.

My conspiracy theory is that this one might be in the "election surprise bucket". The way it works is you do a study on something and then when the results are back, sit on it, umm and ahh, deny all interest in the project and dither to get the opposition off the scent and then just before the election, announce it as a election blockbuster promise. The opposition will then be caught out and it will be too late for the costing etc to be incorporated into their suite of election promises.

This is not the first time "blockbustering" has been used. It was used on the Kippa-Ring line!
I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

Stillwater


Confirmed with LNP:  Fiona Simpson is LNP Infrastructure spokesperson.  Very interesting.

Golliwog

Oh dear. Even the current government does better than that. There are seperate deparments (Transport and Main Roads, Infrastructure and Planning) but TMR still does its own infrastructure most of the time, DIP does get involved from time to time but my understanding is they do their own thing.
There is no silver bullet... but there is silver buckshot.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Stillwater


Yes!

Is, for example, the provision of a bus stop or an interchange a matter for Ms Davis (because its siting would provide a service to commuters) or Ms Simpson (because it involves expenditure on physical infrastructure)?

To whom should representations about additional stations on the Richlands-Springfield line be made -- to Ms Davis (delivery of services) or Ms Simpson (bricks and concrete)?

Presumably, a new ticketing system, or upgrade, would be a matter for Ms Davis.

What happens when it comes to the ordering of new train sets?  That's less clear.

Further clarification LNP.


mufreight

A minister for public transport needs to have control over the provision of the infrastructure related to or needed to be provided to enable the provision and operation of public transport,
Yes the current LNP ideas will create grey areas but they do at least address the priority of public transport and represent a step forward, now to see how they make it work, effectively public transport becomes a sub ministry of the transport and infrastructure portfolio but it will focus more attention on the needs of public transport.   :-t   :lo   :bu   :tr  the  :bo has sunk with Bligh.

STB

Quote from: Arnz on December 05, 2010, 19:03:16 PM
First of all, it was nice catching up with STB and meeting Bob on Saturday.

Which on a related note, I've brought up a few "minor" ideas in regards to services being equipped with toilets.  The new SMUs and IMUs have the same front/exterior, but both the SMU and IMUs doesn't distinguish on the exterior whether if the train has a toilet onboard, since both new types of trains have the same front.  There are signs on the IMU interiors indicating where the toilets are though.

My suggestion is to place a toilet logo on the front of the IMU160s (similar to how the Wheelchair logo is on the front of the BT low floor buses), and also a smaller toilet logo at the doors of the IMU160 to show/indicate that there are "toilets" onboard the train. 

I can't remember how many times (on the number of times the SMU260s operate up to Nambour in the afternoon peak) that someone asks "Where is the toilet?", only to be told that there are no toilets aboard (despite being a 'new' -SMU- train)

It was indeed a good day out and I'm impressed by the passion and turnout of the locals to the consultation session.

Just further to your post, it'd be a good idea, if possble, if prior warning of a non-toilet train is going to be used on the Sunshine Coast line before it arrives on the platform at Roma Street.  I'm thinking if it may be possible for the Mayne Yard to contact Control who then can contact the Customer Service staff on the ground if a non-toilet train will be dispatched for that run.  It takes at least 10mins for the train to make its way from the yard to the platform so there would be plenty of warning to the Customer Service staff to pass on to passengers to have a toilet run if needed before they jump on.

BrizCommuter

Quote from: david on December 04, 2010, 22:56:42 PM
Perhaps the alternative solution to running trains all stations from Northgate to Bowen Hills is to have them ALL running express from Northgate to Bowen Hills (maybe with a stop at Eagle Junction) during the core peak times of 7:30am-8:30am and 4:30pm-5:30pm?

Passenger alighting/boarding patterns would need to be examined closely, but this might just work. Shorncliffe/Doomben trains would need to be ramped up in the next set of timetable reviews to compensate though.
2 problems:
1) Not really enough capacity on Suburbans (looking as 2009 load survey, would need 8tph. 8tph Shorncliffe + 8tph FG + 4tph Airtrain + 2tph Doomben = 22tph and uneven headways).
2) Not enough reversing capacity at Shorncliffe.

Maybe in 2016 post CRR.

Arnz

Doomben is still 1tph in peak.  Shorncliffe is also 2tph for most of the peak period, except for 5pm-6pm when it is 4tph.

Not to mention you got the Gympie North train already running on the suburbans.  Still may be able to squeeze 1 express (2 if lucky).  Hence the suggestion of Nambour trains arriving in Central between 0745 and 0845 (x2 Nambour, 1x Gympie), and departing Central between 1700-1800 (1x Nambour, 1x Gympie) departing from the suburbans.  

That's 2 extra trains on the suburbans in the morning, and 1 extra train in the afternoon peak.  This would require shuffling the Caboolture departures around, same with trying to fit the affected Nambour trains on the suburban tracks between Shorncliffe/Doomben/Airport/Gympie North/FG/etc departures from Central.

The QR schedulers/staff and the few TransLink staff that attended on Saturday are aware of the gap/running pattern issues, and are looking to fix the gaps (yes that means shuffling Caboolture trains around), they however can't guarantee the ideal slots that may enable the express running between NG and BH.  Which means some peak trains may have their patterns changed (somewhere close to the current patterns) to accomodate those concerns, whilst other trains will need to be shuffled to fix up any gaps that occur.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

somebody

#111
I can't agree with giving up that easily.

There is also the option of just having mixed stopping patterns on the same track.  i.e. some all to Petrie, the rest limited stops to Northgate.  I doubt that the required number of trains prevents this.  The other option is to cross to the suburbans after Bowen Hills for the stopping trains.  I know you are going to say that there would be conflicting moves involved in that, and you are correct, but you need to conflict with the inbound trains from Caboolture in the PM peak anyway.  But does the service exist to avoid conflicting moves, or to provide a service?

EDIT: May need to qualify the above.  There is a 3 minute frequency through Northgate between 7:26am & 7:41am.  You can't do mixed patterns through this period.

Arnz

Quote from: somebody on December 06, 2010, 20:36:34 PM
The other option is to cross to the suburbans after Bowen Hills for the stopping trains.  I know you are going to say that there would be conflicting moves involved in that, and you are correct, but you need to conflict with the inbound trains from Caboolture in the PM peak anyway.  But does the service exist to avoid conflicting moves, or to provide a service?

Some selected weekend trains to Nambour already cross over to the suburbans after Bowen Hills, fyi.  Also, at the same time, the suburban starters (from the Mayne yards) on any day of the week (Ferny Grove, Shorncliffe, Gympie North, etc) already "conflicts" by crossing the mains into the suburban platforms at Roma Street.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

somebody

That's exactly right.  And those Roma St #7 starters conflict with more trains than those which cross to the suburbans after Bowen Hills.

somebody

Quote from: BrizCommuter on December 06, 2010, 20:15:44 PM
Not really enough capacity on Suburbans (looking as 2009 load survey, would need 8tph. 8tph Shorncliffe + 8tph FG + 4tph Airtrain + 2tph Doomben = 22tph and uneven headways).
How do you figure that you'd need 8tph Shorncliffe?  6tph near-clockface would do.  Can't get exactly clockface due to that not being a multiple of 3 minute frequency.  Although that wouldn't allow for QR's normal terminus operations.

But that would encourage so much patronage that the trains would be overloaded, most likely.

Even 8tph should be achievable with crew swaps and/or overrunning at Shorncliffe.

BrizCommuter

Quote from: somebody on December 20, 2010, 12:59:43 PM
Quote from: BrizCommuter on December 06, 2010, 20:15:44 PM
Not really enough capacity on Suburbans (looking as 2009 load survey, would need 8tph. 8tph Shorncliffe + 8tph FG + 4tph Airtrain + 2tph Doomben = 22tph and uneven headways).
How do you figure that you'd need 8tph Shorncliffe?  6tph near-clockface would do.  Can't get exactly clockface due to that not being a multiple of 3 minute frequency.  Although that wouldn't allow for QR's normal terminus operations.

But that would encourage so much patronage that the trains would be overloaded, most likely.

Even 8tph should be achievable with crew swaps and/or overrunning at Shorncliffe.

It is likely that the 2011 suburban timetable will have to evolve around a 15 minute repetition, with slots every 3 mins through the CBD. Otherwise it will be a random mess as it currently is. This can be supported by the Gold Coast (4tph), Beenleigh/Kuraby (8tph), Cleveland (8tph), Ferny Grove/Mitcheton (8tph), Airport (4tph). But from the North this leaves just 8tph for both Shorncliffe (all stations) and Doomben.

So looking at the idea of expressing all Caboolture Line trains between Northgate and Bowen Hills - 2009 loadings for sectors Eagle Junction - Albion, Shorncliffe - Bindha, Northgate - Toombul = 8,969. That is more than the FG Line on 8,182! Most Northgate passengers would take the Caboolture express services, and some Eagle Junction passengers would take the Airtrain which would take the pressure off a bit. However, I could see serious overcrowding on the ex-Shorncliffe services after the 15 min gap due to having to fit in the Doomben service. Stations between Northgate and Albion would also have a considerably worse service if they were bypassed by all Caboolture/Sunshine Coast services instead of the frequent service in the draft 2011 changes. Should more than 5,000 inner-city passengers be inconvenienced to keep less than 1,000 Sunshine Coast passengers happy?







#Metro

QuoteShould more than 5,000 inner-city passengers be inconvenienced to keep less than 1,000 Sunshine Coast passengers happy?

I don't know about this. Firstly, The numbers on the SC line are no doubt suppressed because of the poor service. They are getting "rotten apples" and as we know, the demand for rotten apples will always be lower than the demand for quality, fresh apples, so to speak.

The other thing is the Sunshine Coast line commuters really don't have much of an alternative. It is either the train or the road. At least within the BCC boundary there is a third option, which is the bus system. In an integrated PT system, could buses be used to relieve loadings? (perhaps not, but you can see where I'm coming from).

The Gold and Sunshine Coasts in my view are sufficiently similar in terms of distance and in terms of population and city layout to be sufficient for comparison to each other. Gold Coast commuters get trains 15 minutes and the longest express run in the network. Not only that, they got triplication projects on the Beenleigh line and have express service no matter what day or time of the week or weekend it is.

This isn't really the Sunshine Coast commuter's problem that the network cannot accommodate a sufficiently decent level of service even half-comparable to that the Gold Coast receives. No doubt, with poor linkages to the high paying jobs in Brisbane the Sunshine Coast economy has suffered in some way simply because the people who otherwise would have made that trip into Brisbane for those jobs can't, and tourists with no car will find it harder to access and therefore holiday there. Look at the Gold Coast line on the weekends, lots of people; Sunshine Coast, I wouldn't know, I wouldn't even bother thinking about catching a train there on the weekend to see their tourist attractions, too slow, too infrequent and too far.

IMHO, CAMCOS should be built, and express services run on them mirror-image to that of the service levels and type seen on the Gold Coast line. Understandably, there will be some kind of stop gap measure just to make sure the system works while someone somewhere realises that there needs to be improvements to allow more Sunshine Coast services into Brisbane.

My point is this: The Sunshine Coast line commuters are not selfish in any sense of the word. Far from it. Their services are third world IMHO, and are set to get worse if this all stops business goes ahead. Its not their fault that there isn't adequate track capacity. That is the responsibility of the current government to ensure that.
I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

somebody

#117
Quote from: BrizCommuter on December 20, 2010, 17:08:42 PM
Should more than 5,000 inner-city passengers be inconvenienced to keep less than 1,000 Sunshine Coast passengers happy?
You're ignoring >11 000 commuters Virginia-Caboolture who are also inconvenienced by the proposed timetable.

Firstly, I wouldn't really recommend skipping Eagle Junction, and I've always thought that serving Northgate while skipping EJ is a throwback to before the Airport line went in.  That makes a huge difference to the loadings involved on the Shorncliffe services.

Secondly, I'm not sure why there would need to be a 15 minute gap, if the suburbans have a capacity of 23-25tph.  Assuming 2.5 minute headways and 8tph all to FG (not easily achievable at present):
:00 FG
:02.5 Shorncliffe
:05 Airtrain
:07.5 FG
:10 Shorncliffe
:12.5 Doomben

On current infrastructure for FG, the Airtain has to come 2.5mins earlier followed by the Mitchelton terminator.  I expect this to work out, although I haven't been through it thoroughly.

The 7.5min frequency on the Shorncliffe line can only be done with crew swaps at Shorncliffe on the current infrastructure.

Ok, so if you want a 3min timetable and 8tph Shorncliffe + FG, it can't be done with even frequencies without a conflicting move.

BrizCommuter

Quote from: somebody on December 20, 2010, 17:50:43 PM
You're ignoring >11 000 commuters Virginia-Caboolture who are also inconvenienced by the proposed timetable.
Inconvenienced? They appear to have an increase in peak frequency, a more homogenous timetable, and shorter maximum gaps between services. I'd be very happy if I didn't have to wait more than 12mins in the peaks!

Quote
Theoretically the suburbans can handle 23-25tph, in reality this would be extremely difficult. I would be surprised if the 2011 timetables have more than 20tph scheduled, but I would be happy to be proved wrong. Personally I can only see it being based around a 15 minute pattern, as a 12 minute pattern could not be operated on many lines that use the suburbans.

Julian

The Peak hour draft timetable is completely appalling and has been thoroughly discussed, but what about the Off-Peak?

I'm horrified at the new stopping timetables for the Off-Peak services. It wasn't that long ago that travelling on the Sunshine Coast line off-peak - especially on the weekends - involved catching all all-stations train to Caboolture then a shuttle from Caboolture to Nambour (or vice versa). Or, when the stopping pattern was Express between Bowen Hills to Northgate then Zillmere to Petrie. Remember the 2 early morning trains from Nambour during the week? All stations to Beenleigh and Ipswich respectively?  :o QR and TransLink finally got their act together a few years ago to make them Express between Caboolture to Bowen Hills (with stops at Petrie - which turned out to be a vital link - and Northgate).  ;D  This was such a major step forward for Sunshine Coast commuters. Suddenly, early morning peak and all off-peak travel by train became simple, logical - and most importantly, attractive!  :-t

Now, the precious Few direct Off-Peak services on the Sunshine Coast will now be slower, and leave earlier, to arrive later. It boggles my mind that the new timetable will destroy all this good work that's been achieved in the past five to ten years on our line and take such massive steps backward.  :'(

There is no need for our off-peak services to stop all stations between Northgate and Bowen Hills. Those stations will get 15 min frequencies in both directions off-peak. What would happen if all Gold Cost trains off-peak - and 75% peak services, stopped all stations from South Bank to Coopers Plains? The outcry would be obscene! And yet, we travel FAR longer in even worse conditions.  :pr

And I know this sounds silly, but I'm no longer going to feel safe on late night outbound services. Passenger counts on those trains are far less than the urban all stations services and I'm no longer going to feel safe during the all-stops dance between Northgate and Bowen Hills (yes, I know that sounds silly, but I feel there is safely in numbers). :-[

As far as I am concerned, all off-peak services on the Sunshine Coast line should maintain their current stopping pattern of Express between Caboolture and Bowen Hills with stops at Petrie and Northgate. And I'll go one step further and say that all Peak services should be the same but omit the Petrie and Northgate stops. Suddenly, a blinding flash of the obvious - it's logical and just so easy to remember!

What I don't understand is that TransLink are saying we need simpler stopping patterns, and treats the Nambour and Gympie North services as being on the one time table, and essentially the one line, but gives them both separate stopping patterns??  ???  Where is the logic?  :pr

I really hope TransLink could at least pay attention to us off-peak Sunshine Coast commuters but I fear it might be too late.

Cheers

MJ
TransStink - because your guess is as good as ours! ;)

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