Sunshine Coast Line draft 2011 timetable feedback thread

[somebody]

Possibly the powers that be forgot about Bowen Hills?

90 secs platform reoccupation time + 60 secs crew changover + 30 secs operating margin = 3 mins.

Maybe move the crew changeover to Central during the peak.

[Gazza]

The Gold and Sunshine Coasts in my view are sufficiently similar in terms of distance and in terms of population and city layout to be sufficient for comparison to each other.

O RLY?


http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8913/landuseorlyscgc.jpg

Maybe when CAMCOS gets built things would be more comparable, but at the moment, no way.

[#Metro]

Maybe when CAMCOS gets built things would be more comparable, but at the moment, no way.

Which is why it needs to be built!

Sure, you have shown the rail line is further out, all the more reason to bring it in closer with CAMCOS.
The first stage could go to the bottom of the Sunshine Coast at Caloundra. That would allow it to plug into the bus system as a stop-gap measure pending further extension.

If anything, your image shows the Sunshine Coast as MORE concentrated along the coast than the GC, which has some urban spread between the coast and the rail line. So it should be EASIER to service the more concentrated demand using PT infrastructure like CAMCOS and bus services.

The Sunshine Coast is a linear city! How hard must it be to get public transport to travel in a straight line???

[Gazza]

I guess the point I was trying to make is why the GC line gets more trains than the  Nambour line.

[#Metro]

I'll leave it to Fares_Fare and Arnz to defend the case for more rail services to the Sunshine Coast in this debate.

My point is this: The demand for rotten apples will always be lower than the demand for non-rotten apples.

The Gold Coast had its version of CAMCOS built, it has been a success and now has 15 min trains in peak and express rail services all day, every day.

The Sunshine Coast has rotten apples. Rotten service frequency. Rotten services with no toilets on them (do this on the GC line and wait for the uproar) and rotten infrastructure (single track sections, and CAMCOS not built).

And being turned off by the rot is being used as "proof" that nobody want to catch PT on the Sunshine Coast.

There is a need for more services on that line. I think that has been established.

In my view (and others have disagreed with me due to cost) there is also a need for CAMCOS to be built.
The Sunshine Coast is growing, they need services.

[#Metro]

I guess the point I was trying to make is why the GC line gets more trains than the  Nambour line.

Yes, but see my explanation above ^^^

[Stillwater]

Yes, CAMCOS should be built, and to Caloundra in the first instance.  The state government announced this in 2007 and said that duplication to Landsborough would happen and CAMCOS would extend to Caloundra by 2015-16.  Since then, silence.  No explanation.  CAMCOS now on the '2031 promise' like many other bits of Infrastructure.

There are a host of reasons why CRR should be a priority, but CAMCOS does not even make the 'top 14' requests for Infrastructure Australia funding published today.  That means commuters are stuck with the current track and alignment, with bus links east to the coast.

The government should be able to explain how it will tweak the current infrastructure to meet demand and population growth (more than 500,000 permanent pop. by the middle of the century.)  Nothing.  Silence about what will happen between now and 2031.

[Fares_Fair]

Does Brizcommuter not realise there is only a single track north of Beerburrum. THAT is a bottleneck !

BrizCommuter does realise that, but the single track north of Beerburrum doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the slowing down of your express service. BrizCommuter also thinks at an extra Landsborough service (extended from Caboolture) could be fitted in the peaks with existing infrastructure if there were sufficient trains, crew, and suitable return paths/stabling arrangements.

I was not making a point about slower express services for the Sunshine Coast by the Beerburrum bottleneck,
as express services only start from/to Caboolture! The express leg itself is unaffected by this.

They will be slower based upon the reduction in number of by-passed stations.
Worst peak time case I found was an extra 12 minutes on the journey length ex-Nambour 6:00am service.
Most are only 1, 2 or 5 minutes longer and not worth a massive fuss IMHO. I can live with that.

Regarding express services:
Currently there are 23 week-day express services.
These by-pass 420 stations in total.

Draft 2011 has are 29 week-day express services.
These by-pass 396 stations in total.

Whilst there are 6 extra express services on the Sunshine Coast line, they by-pass 24 less stations!
The statistic is indeed interesting IMHO.

My no. 1 priority main issue in all of this is the incredibly illogical changes to the peak arrival and departure times.   

The other priority issue is the number/type of services. We have no hope of frequency until infrastructure is put into place.
The fact that 51.6% of our Nambour to Caboolture leg services are Rail buses is testament to that. 
Yes, we have 126 weekly services and 65 of those are Rail buses from Nambour to Caboolture!

We have every right to be disgruntled with the State Government's apparent deliberate neglect of the Sunshine Coast.

The only other line in the network with them is Doomben !!
Do you see an incongruity there ?

I accept that you have your own opinion and defend your right to express it, even it seems biased against the Sunshine Coast. I sometimes wonder whether this means you work for the State Government. 


Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[BrizCommuter]

Does Brizcommuter not realise there is only a single track north of Beerburrum. THAT is a bottleneck !

BrizCommuter does realise that, but the single track north of Beerburrum doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the slowing down of your express service. BrizCommuter also thinks at an extra Landsborough service (extended from Caboolture) could be fitted in the peaks with existing infrastructure if there were sufficient trains, crew, and suitable return paths/stabling arrangements.

I was not making a point about slower express services for the Sunshine Coast by the Beerburrum bottleneck,
as express services only start from/to Caboolture! The express leg itself is unaffected by this.

They will be slower based upon the reduction in number of by-passed stations.
Worst peak time case I found was an extra 12 minutes on the journey length ex-Nambour 6:00am service.
Most are only 1, 2 or 5 minutes longer and not worth a massive fuss IMHO. I can live with that.

Regarding express services:
Currently there are 23 week-day express services.
These by-pass 420 stations in total.

Draft 2011 has are 29 week-day express services.
These by-pass 396 stations in total.

Whilst there are 6 extra express services on the Sunshine Coast line, they by-pass 24 less stations!
The statistic is indeed interesting IMHO.

My no. 1 priority main issue in all of this is the incredibly illogical changes to the peak arrival and departure times.   

The other priority issue is the number/type of services. We have no hope of frequency until infrastructure is put into place.
The fact that 51.6% of our Nambour to Caboolture leg services are Rail buses is testament to that. 
Yes, we have 126 weekly services and 65 of those are Rail buses from Nambour to Caboolture!

We have every right to be disgruntled with the State Government's apparent deliberate neglect of the Sunshine Coast.

The only other line in the network with them is Doomben !!
Do you see an incongruity there ?

I accept that you have your own opinion and defend your right to express it, even it seems biased against the Sunshine Coast. I sometimes wonder whether this means you work for the State Government. 


Regards,
Fares_Fair.

-I'm with you on the CBD arrival/departure times.
-I'm with you on frequency (within reason - half hourly peak can only be justified given current patronage+extra for growth).
-I'm with you on lack of infrastructure (although I think partial extra tracks between Caboolture and Bowen Hills would be more useful than Beeburrum to Landsborough in the near term)
-However, with the current infrastructure, I have to agree with the draft timetable stopping patterns as it makes the efficient use of the limited track capacity.

One of my next blogs will be a comparison of Sunshine Coast & Gold Coast frequency and journey times against international railway systems (looking at stations which are within 85-105km of major cities).

[#Metro]

One of my next blogs will be a comparison of Sunshine Coast & Gold Coast frequency and journey times against international railway systems (looking at stations which are within 85-105km of major cities).

Does Mandurah, WA get in on this one??? 

[Fares_Fair]

To be fair, I think you would be best factoring in population sizes (but not density) into the mix.
That impacts upon frequency and costs.

As at 30th June, 2009 the populations were

Sunshine Coast population at 30 June 2009 = 323,400
Gold Coast population at 30 June 2009 = 515,200
(Source ABS)

Sunshine Coast was 62.77% of the Gold Coast population at that time.

Regards,
Fares_Fair

[#Metro]

http://profile.id.com.au/Default.aspx?id=352&pg=107&gid=10&type=enum

Analysis of household income levels in Sunshine Coast Council area in 2006 compared to South East Queensland shows that there was a smaller proportion of high income households (those earning $1,700 per week or more) but a larger proportion of low income households (those earning less than $500 per week).

Overall, 15.5% of the households earned a high income, and 20.5% were low income households, compared with 22.1% and 17.2% respectively for South East Queensland.

I wonder what effect poor transport is having on the ability to attain high paying jobs in the Brisbane CBD, and more broadly the Sunshine Coast economy...

[#Metro]

Mandurah and Rockingham, another coastal strip development, outside of Perth.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mandurah&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=43.983628,109.072266&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Mandurah+Western+Australia,+Australia&ll=-32.486597,115.754356&spn=0.183895,0.426064&t=h&z=12

[somebody]

Finally, if anyone can write a draft timetable that gives the Sunshine Coast an improved service, whilst improving the current overcrowding situation on the Caboolture Line, and without stuffing up anyone else's train service then post it here.

I'm sure you won't like this proposal either, but what about this for a half hourly evolution in the AM peak, inbound on the mains:

Train from:	Petrie	Caboolture	Nambour	Petrie	Caboolture	Shorncliffe & Albion #1	Petrie	Caboolture	Airport to Roma St	Petrie
Bowen Hills time:	:00	:03	:06	:09	:12	:15	:18	:21	:24	:27

Next half hour swaps Petrie & Caboolture slots.

Assuming the Shorncliffe line also supplies the suburbans with 4tph, all Shorncliffe trains are all stops and all Caboolture & Petrie trains stop at Northgate, Eagle Junction and then Bowen Hills.  Also assuming 2tph from Doomben which really means 8tph at Albion & Woolowin and 6tph at Nundah & Toombul but with probably 15 minute gaps at the last 2 stations.

I say that I am reducing the effect of the Airport to Roma St platform #7 train by 50%, so no increase in effective conflicting moves.  So is this service evil?

[somebody]

In the PM peak, I'd think 2tph to Northgate (Platform #1) + 2tph to Doomben + 4tph all to Shorncliffe would be the go.

[somebody]

Finally, if anyone can write a draft timetable that gives the Sunshine Coast an improved service, whilst improving the current overcrowding situation on the Caboolture Line, and without stuffing up anyone else's train service then post it here.

And for the suburbans:

Train from:	Ferny Grove	Airport	Doomben	Ferny Grove	Shorncliffe or Sandgate	Ferny Grove	Airport	Shorncliffe	Ferny Grove	Shorncliffe
Bowen Hills time:	:00	:03	:06	:09	:12	:15	:18	:21	:24	:27

In fact, that timetable shows that it may be unnecessary to have the conflicting move from Shorncliffe to the mains, if you can live with a 6tph Shorncliffe timetable, with 15 minute gaps.  If you insist on an 8tph timetable, 2tph could swap to the mains after Northgate heading inbound and then stop at Eagle Junction then Bowen Hills.

How am I doing?

On the Shorncliffe line (adding Doomben), I am thinking of ideally an 7.5 minute service, which would be quite tight even with crew swaps at Shorncliffe.  The other alternative for 8tph is to alternate Sandgate starters in the AM. (This won't work in the PM though, but there is a less peaky demand pattern then anyway.

In typing this, and thinking about the possibilities, I've already gone off the idea of 6tph Shorncliffe in the AM.  Why not 4tph from Shorncliffe and 4tph from Sandgate?  What I am suggesting does mean that Bindha has a better service than Nundah/Toombul (which would have 15 minute gaps), but no plan is perfect.

EDIT:
The above limitation could be solved by a crossover heading south from Toombul on the suburbans towards the mains, and one on the mains approaching Toombul outbound from the mains to the suburbans.  One area I do not think QLD has an infrastructure fetish.  There aren't always appropriate crossovers!

I'd also wonder about the need to serve Northgate from Petrie/Caboolture/Nambour, but if some trains have to serve, then all do.

Another limitation with the 6 minute frequency from both Petrie and Caboolture is that it doesn't allow any Sunshine Coast trains through for the period in which it applies.  Thought that was worth pointing out.

[somebody]

Finally, if anyone can write a draft timetable that gives the Sunshine Coast an improved service, whilst improving the current overcrowding situation on the Caboolture Line, and without stuffing up anyone else's train service then post it here.

Do you concede that it is, in fact, possible now?  I for one would much prefer a 9 minute frequency over a 6 minute frequency if the worse frequency actually saved 3 minutes of travel time!  No possible disadvantage.

[somebody]

Here's a detailed timetable for the PM, assuming no Ferny Grove duplication, 2tph Northgate terminators + 2tph Doomben and 3 minute headways

Bowen Hills time	:00	:03	:06	:09	:12
Proceeds to	Ferny Grove	Airport	Northgate or Doomben	Mitchelton	Shorncliffe
Northgate time			:19		:25
Shorncliffe Arrival					:44
-
Shorncliffe Depart					:54
Northgate					:10

The above table shows that it isn't quite doable without a crew swap somewhere with a 4tph counter peak frequency on the Shorncliffe line.  However, a crew swap somewhere (Shorncliffe would be best), or perhaps double heading of the Northgate train would make it perfectly doable.

As for the Ferny Grove line:

Bowen Hills time	:00	:09
Mitchelton time	:12	:26
Keperra	:18		:33	:48	:03
Ferny Grove	:22		:37	:52	:07
-
Ferny Grove	:42		:57	:12	:27
Keperra	:45		:00	:15	:30
Mitchelton	:50		:05	:20	:35

The reliability of this timetable could be mediocre in the counter peak direction, but I would be complaining too much about the reliability if I had suddenly had a 15 minute frequency!

[Stillwater]

Any word of the date or timing of the community forum on the draft Sunshine Coast Line that local MPs were trying to arrange following the 4th December 'consultation' session in Nambour?

[Fares_Fair]

Hello Stillwater,

No details at this point, awaiting pollies to return from their Christmas break on 10th January, 2011.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[BrizCommuter]

Finally, if anyone can write a draft timetable that gives the Sunshine Coast an improved service, whilst improving the current overcrowding situation on the Caboolture Line, and without stuffing up anyone else's train service then post it here.

Do you concede that it is, in fact, possible now?  I for one would much prefer a 9 minute frequency over a 6 minute frequency if the worse frequency actually saved 3 minutes of travel time!  No possible disadvantage.

It isn't possible now. The only way to speed up Sunshine Coast trains between Northgate and Bowen Hills in the new timetable would be to remove Caboolture or Petrie services. Less Caboolture/Petrie services (lower frequency) = more overcrowding.

[Arnz]

It isn't possible now. The only way to speed up Sunshine Coast trains between Northgate and Bowen Hills in the new timetable would be to remove Caboolture or Petrie services. Less Caboolture/Petrie services (lower frequency) = more overcrowding.

It is actually possible with a few trains, otherwise Gympie North would not be its own sector. It's not as if it's extra hard.  

ex-Nambour/Gympie trains arriving at Central between 0745 and 0845 and departing to Nambour/Gympie between 1700-1800 crosses from the mains to the suburbans (and vice-versa) after Bowen Hills (+2 ex-Nambour trains AM , +1 Nambour train PM).   Gympie North trains already starts from the suburbans, so they only conflict at Roma Street as per other suburban starters to Ferny Grove, Airport, Shorncliffe, etc. Other peak trains from Nambour remains scheduled on the mains due to heavier schedules at the other times from the other lines.

At most 1 train (or 2 trains) crossing from the suburban to mains (and vice-versa) at Bowen Hills blocks only the counter-peak 30 min Shorncliffe/Airport/60 min Doomben (5tph) on the suburbans in the AM peak, and in the PM peak blocks 2tph ex-Caboolture starters and the 1 service ex-Nambour that arrives around 5pm.  The conflicts will not effect FG, thus keeping extra slots for extra Ferny Grove runs in the peak direction (as it is busier than Shorncliffe, Airport or Doomben).

Sure it's a conflict, but Bowen Hills conflicting moves are much less than the numerous conflicting moves Roma Street Platform 7 deals on a regular basis in the current peaks and in the future timetable, due to Roma Street suburban starters (Ferny Grove, Shorncliffe, Airport, Gympie North and 4:28pm to Nambour) blocking the Ipswich/Caboolture Line every 10-20 mins.

The Bowen Hills suburban starters at least has the luxury of the FG flyovers from Mayne depot (and only conflicts with the FG line, which operates less frequently than Ipswich or Caboolture in the peaks).

[BrizCommuter]

It isn't possible now. The only way to speed up Sunshine Coast trains between Northgate and Bowen Hills in the new timetable would be to remove Caboolture or Petrie services. Less Caboolture/Petrie services (lower frequency) = more overcrowding.

It is actually possible with a few trains, otherwise Gympie North would not be its own sector. It's not as if it's extra hard.  

ex-Nambour/Gympie trains arriving at Central between 0745 and 0845 and departing to Nambour/Gympie between 1700-1800 crosses from the mains to the suburbans (and vice-versa) after Bowen Hills (+2 ex-Nambour trains AM , +1 Nambour train PM).   Gympie North trains already starts from the suburbans, so they only conflict at Roma Street as per other suburban starters to Ferny Grove, Airport, Shorncliffe, etc. Other peak trains from Nambour remains scheduled on the mains due to heavier schedules at the other times from the other lines.

At most 1 train (or 2 trains) crossing from the suburban to mains (and vice-versa) at Bowen Hills blocks only the counter-peak 30 min Shorncliffe/Airport/60 min Doomben (5tph) on the suburbans in the AM peak, and in the PM peak blocks 2tph ex-Caboolture starters and the 1 service ex-Nambour that arrives around 5pm.  The conflicts will not effect FG, thus keeping extra slots for extra Ferny Grove runs in the peak direction (as it is busier than Shorncliffe, Airport or Doomben).

Sure it's a conflict, but Bowen Hills conflicting moves are much less than the numerous conflicting moves Roma Street Platform 7 deals on a regular basis in the current peaks and in the future timetable, due to Roma Street suburban starters (Ferny Grove, Shorncliffe, Airport, Gympie North and 4:28pm to Nambour) blocking the Ipswich/Caboolture Line every 10-20 mins.

The Bowen Hills suburban starters at least has the luxury of the FG flyovers from Mayne depot (and only conflicts with the FG line, which operates less frequently than Ipswich or Caboolture in the peaks).

What you have not considered is that in late 2011 there may not be enough track capacity from Bowen Hills to Roma Street on the suburbans for trains to/from Sunshine Coast as those slots will be required for Shorncliffe, Airtrain, Doomben, and Ferny Grove services. In the interim period, some Shorncliffe services will be moved to the suburbans to free up space on the mains for the additional Nambour, Caboolture, and Petrie services.

[Arnz]

It isn't possible now. The only way to speed up Sunshine Coast trains between Northgate and Bowen Hills in the new timetable would be to remove Caboolture or Petrie services. Less Caboolture/Petrie services (lower frequency) = more overcrowding.

It is actually possible with a few trains, otherwise Gympie North would not be its own sector. It's not as if it's extra hard.  

ex-Nambour/Gympie trains arriving at Central between 0745 and 0845 and departing to Nambour/Gympie between 1700-1800 crosses from the mains to the suburbans (and vice-versa) after Bowen Hills (+2 ex-Nambour trains AM , +1 Nambour train PM).   Gympie North trains already starts from the suburbans, so they only conflict at Roma Street as per other suburban starters to Ferny Grove, Airport, Shorncliffe, etc. Other peak trains from Nambour remains scheduled on the mains due to heavier schedules at the other times from the other lines.

At most 1 train (or 2 trains) crossing from the suburban to mains (and vice-versa) at Bowen Hills blocks only the counter-peak 30 min Shorncliffe/Airport/60 min Doomben (5tph) on the suburbans in the AM peak, and in the PM peak blocks 2tph ex-Caboolture starters and the 1 service ex-Nambour that arrives around 5pm.  The conflicts will not effect FG, thus keeping extra slots for extra Ferny Grove runs in the peak direction (as it is busier than Shorncliffe, Airport or Doomben).

Sure it's a conflict, but Bowen Hills conflicting moves are much less than the numerous conflicting moves Roma Street Platform 7 deals on a regular basis in the current peaks and in the future timetable, due to Roma Street suburban starters (Ferny Grove, Shorncliffe, Airport, Gympie North and 4:28pm to Nambour) blocking the Ipswich/Caboolture Line every 10-20 mins.

The Bowen Hills suburban starters at least has the luxury of the FG flyovers from Mayne depot (and only conflicts with the FG line, which operates less frequently than Ipswich or Caboolture in the peaks).

What you have not considered is that in late 2011 there may not be enough track capacity from Bowen Hills to Roma Street on the suburbans for trains to/from Sunshine Coast as those slots will be required for Shorncliffe, Airtrain, Doomben, and Ferny Grove services. In the interim period, some Shorncliffe services will be moved to the suburbans to free up space on the mains for the additional Nambour, Caboolture, and Petrie services.

I have considered it. Read it again, Nambour trains depart/arrive from the mains at Roma Street - Bowen Hills, then crosses to/from the suburbans after Bowen Hills (only conflicting with the less frequent counter-peak trains).

Counter-peak services which the conflict after Bowen Hills is at (in both directions) do not increase at all.  Shorncliffe counter-peak remains 2tph, Doomben remains 1tph and Airtrain remains 2tph (5tph). Ferny Grove is not affected at all as the conflict is after the FG flyover.  

Suburban tracks in the peak direction after Bowen Hills is taken by Shorncliffe (4tph), Airport (4tph), Doomben (1tph).  Mains between 1600 and 1700 is taken up by Caboolture/Petrie (9tph) and Nambour (2tph).   Shifting 1-2 Nambour trains to the suburbans after Bowen Hills will only affect the less frequent counter-peak trains and will not affect any peak direction trains.

Since Shorncliffe/Airport is not likely to go above 4tph in peak (9tph between Bowen Hills and Eagle Junction, it would not surprise me if the Airport trains are stopping at Albion and Wooloowin in the future), followed by the 1tph to Doomben and the 1 train to Gympie North keeping suburbans to 10tph on average, it only shifts 1 train across to the suburbans.

[BrizCommuter]

It isn't possible now. The only way to speed up Sunshine Coast trains between Northgate and Bowen Hills in the new timetable would be to remove Caboolture or Petrie services. Less Caboolture/Petrie services (lower frequency) = more overcrowding.

It is actually possible with a few trains, otherwise Gympie North would not be its own sector. It's not as if it's extra hard.  

ex-Nambour/Gympie trains arriving at Central between 0745 and 0845 and departing to Nambour/Gympie between 1700-1800 crosses from the mains to the suburbans (and vice-versa) after Bowen Hills (+2 ex-Nambour trains AM , +1 Nambour train PM).   Gympie North trains already starts from the suburbans, so they only conflict at Roma Street as per other suburban starters to Ferny Grove, Airport, Shorncliffe, etc. Other peak trains from Nambour remains scheduled on the mains due to heavier schedules at the other times from the other lines.

At most 1 train (or 2 trains) crossing from the suburban to mains (and vice-versa) at Bowen Hills blocks only the counter-peak 30 min Shorncliffe/Airport/60 min Doomben (5tph) on the suburbans in the AM peak, and in the PM peak blocks 2tph ex-Caboolture starters and the 1 service ex-Nambour that arrives around 5pm.  The conflicts will not effect FG, thus keeping extra slots for extra Ferny Grove runs in the peak direction (as it is busier than Shorncliffe, Airport or Doomben).

Sure it's a conflict, but Bowen Hills conflicting moves are much less than the numerous conflicting moves Roma Street Platform 7 deals on a regular basis in the current peaks and in the future timetable, due to Roma Street suburban starters (Ferny Grove, Shorncliffe, Airport, Gympie North and 4:28pm to Nambour) blocking the Ipswich/Caboolture Line every 10-20 mins.

The Bowen Hills suburban starters at least has the luxury of the FG flyovers from Mayne depot (and only conflicts with the FG line, which operates less frequently than Ipswich or Caboolture in the peaks).

What you have not considered is that in late 2011 there may not be enough track capacity from Bowen Hills to Roma Street on the suburbans for trains to/from Sunshine Coast as those slots will be required for Shorncliffe, Airtrain, Doomben, and Ferny Grove services. In the interim period, some Shorncliffe services will be moved to the suburbans to free up space on the mains for the additional Nambour, Caboolture, and Petrie services.

I have considered it. Read it again, Nambour trains depart/arrive from the mains at Roma Street - Bowen Hills, then crosses to/from the suburbans after Bowen Hills (only conflicting with the less frequent counter-peak trains).

Counter-peak services which the conflict after Bowen Hills is at (in both directions) do not increase at all.  Shorncliffe counter-peak remains 2tph, Doomben remains 1tph and Airtrain remains 2tph (5tph). Ferny Grove is not affected at all as the conflict is after the FG flyover.  

Suburban tracks in the peak direction after Bowen Hills is taken by Shorncliffe (4tph), Airport (4tph), Doomben (1tph).  Mains between 1600 and 1700 is taken up by Caboolture/Petrie (9tph) and Nambour (2tph).   Shifting 1-2 Nambour trains to the suburbans after Bowen Hills will only affect the less frequent counter-peak trains and will not affect any peak direction trains.

Since Shorncliffe/Airport is not likely to go above 4tph in peak (9tph between Bowen Hills and Eagle Junction, it would not surprise me if the Airport trains are stopping at Albion and Wooloowin in the future), followed by the 1tph to Doomben and the 1 train to Gympie North keeping suburbans to 10tph on average, it only shifts 1 train across to the suburbans.

Sorry, I get what you mean now. However it still means that suburbans timetable would have to take into account the sunshine coast service (as it would run express on the suburbans, it would eat up multiple potential track slots for Shorncliffe, Airtrain, and Doomben services). As well fitting in between the above mentioned lines services, it would also have to fit into the Caboolture Lines track slots in two locations (Caboolture to Northgate and Bowen Hills to Roma Street), as well as not conflicting with moves in the opposite direction when crossing between the suburbans and mains (or vice versa). Even just doing this with one service could be a scheduling nightmare, and decrease reliability on all lines. Sorry, but yet again, this fails to answer the specifications of an improved sunshine coast timetable that does no stuff up the service on other lines.

[somebody]

The only way to speed up Sunshine Coast trains between Northgate and Bowen Hills in the new timetable would be to remove Caboolture or Petrie services. Less Caboolture/Petrie services (lower frequency) = more overcrowding.

I would agree.  However, it would be entirely appropriate to remove some Caboolture/Petrie trains in peak.  I don't see that the line needs 6 minute headways on each of two patterns.  It is only because they are stopping at so many stations that they need this frequency.  Basically, this timetable is great for people Albion-Northgate, but Virginia and beyond are getting screwed.

And if you agree about the arrival/departure complaints of the Sunshine coast commuters, there is no way to slot these trains in unless you make them extensions of the Petrie, all to Caboolture trains.  And unless you only run the single track in one direction in peak, or bring back shuttles, the Sunshine Coast services will become even more overcrowded than at present.

[BrizCommuter]

The only way to speed up Sunshine Coast trains between Northgate and Bowen Hills in the new timetable would be to remove Caboolture or Petrie services. Less Caboolture/Petrie services (lower frequency) = more overcrowding.

I would agree.  However, it would be entirely appropriate to remove some Caboolture/Petrie trains in peak.  I don't see that the line needs 6 minute headways on each of two patterns.  It is only because they are stopping at so many stations that they need this frequency.  Basically, this timetable is great for people Albion-Northgate, but Virginia and beyond are getting screwed.

BrizCommuter has many work colleagues who use the Caboolture Line, and they often report having problems getting seats at stations further out than Northgate (and even at Petrie it can be standing room only). The Caboolture Line is also one of the more overcrowded lines going by QRs overcrowding definition. There is little argument the Caboolture Line requires more services, which is what the draft timetable has achieved. The draft timetable also (with one exception) has no peak gaps of more than 12 mins anywhere on the Caboolture Line, which is considerably better than the current timetable. The more homogenous draft timetable also has a less confusing range of stopping patterns. Yes, Sunshine Coast commuters have been hard done by, but I cannot understand how Caboolture Line users can really be too upset by the draft timetable. You cannot realistically have more frequent services and shorter journey times.

BrizCommuter would love to have a peak hour train at least every 12 mins at his local station!

[somebody]

That argument only works if you compare the new timetable to the old one.  If you compare the new timetable to what is possible, it falls short.  I don't know why you can't have more frequent services at equivalent journey times.  I suppose Geebung/Sunshine/Virginia aren't really going backwards because they only had one express a day!  They'd be pretty happy about the timetable, even.

[somebody]

45 minute frequency to Landsborough timetable.  Repeats every 3 hours:

Northgate	+0:00	+0:45	+1:30	+2:25
Petrie	+0:14	+0:59	+1:44	+2:29
Beerburrum	+0:42	+1:27	+2:12	+2:57
Landsborough arrive	+1:02	+1:47	+2:32	+0:17
Cooroy	+1:56		+0:26
-
Cooroy	+2:31		+1:01
Landsborough	+0:20	+1:05	+1:50	+2:35
Beerburrum	+0:41	+1:26	+2:11	+2:56
Petrie	+1:08	+1:53	+2:38	+0:23
Northgate	+1:24	+2:09	+2:54	+0:39

Needs to be a cross between Landsborough and Cooroy with a shuffle in and out.  Haven't sorted out the details of that but there is enough slack that the cross north of Landsborough can be fitted in by moving times north of Landsborough only.

[Ashli]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this site, but have read several posts regarding Queensland train timetables, particularly the Caboolture and Sunshine Coast lines, which I am a commuter on. I live on Bribie Island (Where the bus service needs major improvements too), so I have already been on a bus for about 45 minutes before reaching Caboolture station. We, Bribie Island commuters, can sympathise with Sunshine Coast commuters who have already been on public transport for an hour (More from the coastal region) before arriving at Caboolture, and know an express train cutting travel time down by 15 minutes is the difference between arriving at work or university on time or having to leave home an hour earlier.

Somewhere in here, it was asked if anyone can come up with a timetable to maintain the express service for the Sunshine Coast, but not to disrupt Caboolture and Petrie services.

I have devised a timetable with a clockface 30 minute frequency on the Caboolture-Ipswich line and the Petrie-Richlands line (To cater now for future extensions to Kippa-Ring and Springfield respectively) giving a 15 minute frequency from Petrie to Darra, and one hour frequent interurban express services for the Sunshine Coast (Cooroy/Nambour) and Rosewood lines. All Caboolture trains continue to Ipswich, all Petrie trains continue to Richlands, and vice versa. All Sunshine Coast and Rosewood trains would terminate in the city, so there is no excuse for any Sunshine Coast train to stop all stations Northgate to Bowen Hills as is the current plan.

Currently, I have not used the third track between Lawnton and Northgate, or the third and fourth tracks between Darra and Roma Street. I don't have any train overtaking another, so all three lines can use the same track on both the Northern and Western lines.
I have not added peak-hour express services either, but these can easily be added in using the extra tracks, as well as a 30 minute frequency for Sunshine Coast and Rosewood where needed.

For the Sunshine Coast, I haven't added in any Gympie services yet. I have a 1 hour frequency to Nambour, and 2 hour frequency to Cooroy, which can easily be adjusted so all trains run to Cooroy (An extra crossover would be needed, as well as stabling), or all terminate at Nambour. I have made an extra stop at Eagle Junction, as I've read many commuters would like to see a stop there for the Brisbane Airport and Doomben/Pinkenba lines, but that can easily be taken out. The current crossing of trains I have timetabled is at Mooloolah Valley.
For Rosewood, I have run hourly trains from Rosewood to Ipswich, then express to Roma Street (Similar to the current Sunshine Coast running), stopping at Redbank and Darra (Junction for Springfield), but these stops can be changed to include others too. This eliminates the shuttle between Rosewood and Ipswich, and gives Ipswich commuters an hourly express service.

I have sent this on to several members of parliament who have praised this and are discussing the issue.

I'm not sure at this stage how to load it up here for you all to see, but if anyone can help that would be greatly appreciated, as would any suggestions or feedback.
Thanks, Ashli.

Basically the running on my proposed timetable looks like this Southbound for the Northern line:

                      CABOOLTURE LINE               SUNSHINE COAST LINE             PETRIE (KIPPA-RING) LINE
Cooroy                                                    :56 (Every second hour)
Nambour                                                 :20
Caboolture       :02, :32                             :18-:19                                   
Petrie              :22, :52                             :35                                        :37, :07
Northgate         :45, :15                            :50                                         :00, :30
Eagle Junction   :51, :21                             :55                                        :06, :36
Bowen Hills      :59, :29                             :02                                         :14, :44
Central            :03-:05, :33-:35                  :06-:08                                   :18-:20, :48-:50
Roma Street     :07, :37                             :10                                         :22, :52
                      Continues to Ipswich            Terminates                              Continues to Richlands

[#Metro]

Hi Ashli
I'm 100% hopeless at train timetabling, and always admire people who manage to sort things like this out!


Thanks for sharing!
Mufreight, Gazza, David and Somebody are more specialist in this area than I could ever be!

[ozbob]

Welcome Ashli!

Thanks for sharing your timetable.  Good stuff. 

We have been suggesting that Petrie to Darra is 15 minute achievable today as well, using similar sectors.

[Stillwater]

Like TT, I admire those who can devise timetable suggestions such as this.  Contributions along these lines are invaluable and must be captured by the process that examines these things in a formal sense.

Submitting information such as this to politicians (particularly if they are of a different political persuasion to the government of the day) can sometimes hamper the process.  Politicians can hold back the information for inclusion in their party's policy manifesto closer to an election.  Then it becomes the subject of a politican attack for no other reason than political parties tear down each other's policies no matter how sensible they may be.  That would be unfortunate.

Secondly, information such as this could be passed onto the current government with a big dollop of vitriol attached (i.e. 'your policy stinks, the Opposition supports this alternative').  The government of the day is forced to defend its own policy in such circumstances.

In addition to providing timetable adjustments to MPs, it may be wise to also pass the information to the bureaucrats who advise governments.  Public servants are supposed to provide 'frank and fearless' advice to governments, so information that finds its way to governments via that means is free of the political taint and, usually, can be considered in a calmer, more rational way.

One person in the bureaucracy who may be interested in any Sunshine Coast Line timetable adjustment would be:

Mr Mark Cridland
Deputy Director-General (Policy and Planning)
Department of Transport and Main Roads
Level 13, Capital Hill Building
85 George Street
Brisbane, QLD, 4000
Email:    mark.a.cridland@tmr.qld.gov.au

Suggest you shoot him an email or letter.

[somebody]

Hi Ashli,
I agree that your proposal for off peak is superior to the one that the professional planners have come up with, and kudos to you if politicians are looking at it seriously. My main criticism is that it isn't going far enough! No improvement for stations between Petrie and Caboolture (exclusive) is my main point of contention.  The other limitations are that it doesn't involve any improvement in travel times, with the exception of Sunshine Coast off peak users, and that the train from the Sunshine Coast isn't far enough in front of the Petrie starter, so what will happen when the Sunshine Coast train runs late?

so there is no excuse for any Sunshine Coast train to stop all stations Northgate to Bowen Hills as is the current plan.

You aren't understanding the issues here.  While you are correct in the off peak, doing something about this in peak while still having an adequate service to the Shorncliffe line and at Albion, Wooloowin, Nundah and Toombul would require one or more of:
(a) crew swaps at Shorncliffe, Sandgate and/or Northgate
(b) tighter than 3 minute headways on the suburban tracks, which have been independently assessed as possible
(c) conflicting moves
(d) non clockface timetables

QR are against all of these things AIUI.

I would suggest that (a) at Shorncliffe and (b) are what should be done.

[Ashli]

Thanks for the feedback and the welcome guys!

Somebody:
I agree that the timetable isn't going far enough at all. We would all love a 20 or 15 minute frequency, or even a 10 minute frequency (Similar to the Frankston line I used, where I come from in Victoria). I've just built onto the current 30 minute frequency on all suburban lines, giving a 15 minute frequency to the branching points of Petrie for Caboolture/Kippa-Ring and Darra for Ipswich/Springfield, and 60 minute frequency interurban.

With the Southbound Cooroy/Nambour to Roma Street express train running late, firstly we would hope QR can run on time. However, catching the current return service from Cooroy frequently, it has been anywhere from 2 to 24 minutes late, so I definitely understand this issue. Off-peak, as I have not used the middle track from Lawnton to Northgate in my timetable, the express train will simply have to run the middle track to Northgate to overtake the Petrie to Richlands train. This shouldn't prove a problem Northbound from Roma Street to Nambour/Cooroy, as there is enough track capacity to stay on time (This may change with addition of peak-hour express services).
I have also standardised the running times from Cooroy/Nambour to Caboolture, with a one minute catch up at Caboolture as is current, so unless there is a major disruption, trains shouldn't run late from the Sunshine Coast.
Obviously, I haven't catered for freight or TravelTrains, which can run behind the current trains, or overtake using the third track, however this may prove difficult in peak-hour as it does currently.

As for Shorncliffe, my understanding was this line is being moved off the main tracks to the suburban tracks (And hopefully connecting to the Cleveland line to make through runs), so will not interfere with the Caboolture, Kippa-Ring (Petrie), and Sunshine Coast lines, and I haven't catered for it on the suburban lines.
Although, I apologise, I'm not sure what you were asking me.

I failed to mention, my idea was to maintain the clockface timetable throughout the peak-hour, so Lawnton to Albion, and Oxley to Milton still have a 15 minute frequency.
A further idea for peak-hour I had is, in addition to having the standard 30 minute frequency from both the Caboolture and Kippa-Ring lines; express services from both Caboolture and Kippa-Ring (When it's built) all stations to Petrie, then express to Bowen Hills with the usual Northgate and Eagle Junction junction stops, running the middle track to overtake; and having all stations Petrie trains to run to Roma Street, giving an increased frequency for Lawnton to Albion.

Peak-Hour
30 minute frequency each hour each from Caboolture line and Kippa-Ring line (When it's built, currently Petrie), creating the 15 minute frequency from Petrie to Bowen Hills.
Express services each hour each from Caboolture and Kippa-Ring, stopping all stations to Petrie, express using the third track to Northgate, express to Eagle Junction, express to Bowen Hills.
All stations Petrie to Roma Street services, to provide an increased frequency for Lawnton-Virginia, Nundah, Toombul, Wooloowin, and Albion.
30 minute frequency each hour from Sunshine Coast line, possibly direct express from Caboolture to Bowen Hills, returning to 60 minute frequency off-peak.
This in addition to Shorncliffe all stations and expresses, Brisbane Airport expresses, and few Doomben all stations trains running on the suburban tracks, which I haven't touched yet.
A similar pattern could exist for the Western line.

Hopefully this helps!

[somebody]

Umm, your peak hour proposal has an unsatisfactory capacity.  Did I read it wrong?  The current timetable has 9tph from Petrie and Caboolture (combined) and it requires an upgrade. +2tph from Nambour.  IIRC.

To run an adequate number of trains from the Caboolture line, there is a need to have all the trains on the mains stopping on the same pattern inbound from Northgate.  Otherwise trains will run into red signals and there is no advantage from having the express pattern.  To have a different stopping pattern you would need to use the suburbans (an un-sectorisation) or have the Albion/W/Toombul/Nundah service provided by the Shorncliffe/Doomben/Airport lines.  Varying the stopping pattern of the airport trains would require the agreement of Airtrain, I expect, which would be difficult.  Domben can't support a 15 minute frequency on current infrastructure.  Northgate starters are a possibility from platform 1 but it does mean blocking a running line for some time.  The Shorncliffe line has issues with the single track beyond Sandgate and also some issues with the second platform at Sandgate.

Are you starting to understand the difficulties that the timetablers face?

I still think your time at Petrie is imprudently tight.  If the Petrie train always leaves on time, then that means the Sunshine Coast train must wait at Petrie even if only 1 minute late, which would delay it by at least 3 more minutes.

[Fares_Fair]

Hello Ashli,

Thank you for your input. 
Does your timetable proposal take into account the freight traffic along the sunshine coast line ?

Regards,
Fares-Fair.

[#Metro]

To run an adequate number of trains from the Caboolture line, there is a need to have all the trains on the mains stopping on the same pattern inbound from Northgate.  Otherwise trains will run into red signals and there is no advantage from having the express pattern.  To have a different stopping pattern you would need to use the suburbans (an un-sectorisation) or have the Albion/W/Toombul/Nundah service provided by the Shorncliffe/Doomben/Airport lines.  Varying the stopping pattern of the airport trains would require the agreement of Airtrain, I expect, which would be difficult.  Domben can't support a 15 minute frequency on current infrastructure.  Northgate starters are a possibility from platform 1 but it does mean blocking a running line for some time.  The Shorncliffe line has issues with the single track beyond Sandgate and also some issues with the second platform at Sandgate.

Are you starting to understand the difficulties that the timetablers face?

It is at times like these I throw my hands up in horror and wonder how our rail system ever got into this decrepit, embarrassing state of affairs! UNBELIEVABLE!!! Get rid of single track!

[somebody]

To run an adequate number of trains from the Caboolture line, there is a need to have all the trains on the mains stopping on the same pattern inbound from Northgate.  Otherwise trains will run into red signals and there is no advantage from having the express pattern.  To have a different stopping pattern you would need to use the suburbans (an un-sectorisation) or have the Albion/W/Toombul/Nundah service provided by the Shorncliffe/Doomben/Airport lines.  Varying the stopping pattern of the airport trains would require the agreement of Airtrain, I expect, which would be difficult.  Domben can't support a 15 minute frequency on current infrastructure.  Northgate starters are a possibility from platform 1 but it does mean blocking a running line for some time.  The Shorncliffe line has issues with the single track beyond Sandgate and also some issues with the second platform at Sandgate.

Are you starting to understand the difficulties that the timetablers face?

It is at times like these I throw my hands up in horror and wonder how our rail system ever got into this decrepit, embarrassing state of affairs! UNBELIEVABLE!!! Get rid of single track!

Single track isn't really the main problem is it?

[Ashli]

I don't think it's such a big problem as TransLink make it out to be. In peak hour, it would be more difficult to timetable more services, express and all-stations, but off-peak it shouldn't be. Running express from Northgate to Bowen Hills currently only reduces the all stations trip by about 2-3 minutes, and doesn't go much faster, especially if a stop at Eagle Junction is created, the timetable would just have to require that gap before and after a Caboolture or Petrie (Kippa-Ring) all stations uses the track.
The proposed timetable only includes Petrie trains during peak-hour. Off-peak, there are only all stations Caboolture, and few limited express Nambour. Which means the track capacity between Northgate and Bowen Hills is the same between Caboolture and Lawnton, (Two all stations per hour, one express every now and then) but the express train seems to be able to run express on the one track between Caboolture and Lawnton, so I, and several other commuters are asking, why does it need to stop all stations from Northgate to Bowen Hills? Track capacity is obviously not an issue if they aren't willing to add in Petrie trains for the future Kippa-Ring extension off-peak, because you should get the same problem between Caboolture and Lawnton, where they are proposed to still run express.
I have just gone one step further and included the standard 30 minute Petrie trains for Kippa-Ring, creating the 15 minute frequency, and have timetabled the Sunshine Coast (Cooroy/Nambour) trains to run between the Caboolture and Petrie (Kippa-Ring) trains, hoping that a "Passenger focussed Queensland Rail" will run Sunshine Coast services on time and as a priority over the freight and TravelTrain (Although I understand this can be quite difficult, I haven't included either as I'm not sure when these run).
In regards to the late running of the Sunshine Coast (Cooroy/Nambour) train, the current Nambour to Roma Street express train (10:04 - 11:53) leaves Caboolture at 10:59, 3 minutes ahead of the all stations train. If the Southbound Nambour train is only running a few minutes late, the all stations train is delayed a few minutes until the express passes it, this time taken out of the dwell at Brisbane Central. This initiative can be passed on to my idea of the timetable. However, like the Cooroy to Roma Street express train (1:48 - 4:00) leaving Caboolture at 3:09, the train may be so late it needs to use the third track or run behind the all stations if it can't catch up.