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Author Topic: NorthShore / Doomben Line  (Read 40677 times)

Offline #Metro

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NorthShore / Doomben Line
« on: November 15, 2010, 08:03:27 AM »
Just some questions:

If the rail line were to be extended to NorthShore Hamilton to become the "Portside Line" or "NorthShore" line (a very suave sounding name)

* How many trains can possibly run on the Doomben line right now
* Does the track need duplication?
* How many trains could run with duplication?

 :lo
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Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2010, 08:08:43 AM »
Quote
* How many trains can possibly run on the Doomben line right now
* Does the track need duplication?
* How many trains could run with duplication?

Yes, duplicating the line is achievable, and there were plans to do that.  Can be done within the existing corridor.

Only issue I see is Eagle Junction in, but with the progressive signalling and other network upgrades no issues.

Trains could run 10 minutes at peak, 15 minutes out of peak I would think.

There is a high level appreciation of the ease which the rail connection can be achieved, simply a deep cutting underneath KSD. 

CanDo is starting to struggle with the roads campaigns.  The masses are slowly turning ..
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colinw

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 08:16:28 AM »
Some construction work toward duplication of the Doomben line was performed in the 1950s, as part of the aborted 1500V DC electrification of the Brisbane Suburban Area.

All the stations from Clayfield to Doomben already have two platform faces, Clayfield & Hendra witout track.  click here and follow the line to see how easily it could be duplicated.  For the most part the existing single line would not even have to be slewed to accommodate a 2nd track on the northern side of the corridor.

Brisbane's own North Shore line?  ;D

Does the mapping indicate where the major concentration of employment may be?  Is there any value in going a station or two beyond Doomben toward Pinkenba (at least to the end of the wires at Eagle Farm near the TAFE?).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 08:31:42 AM by colinw »

Offline Gazza

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 11:18:16 AM »
I'm thinking that I'd rather see the line converted to Tram-Train operation (See what they are doing in Adelaide on the Tonsley line
), use the existing alignment obviously, but when it gets to Hamilton north shore, thread it through the heart of the development and incorporate the trams into the urban environment.
At the Eagle Junction end of the line just do some earthworks...Demolish the car park at the southern end of the station and  excavate the land down to rail level and build a terminus there. Trains come through EJ frequently enough so you'd just change for the city.
Doomben line doesn't warrant taking CBD train paths from the other lines.

No point going up towards the old terminus at Pinkenba IMO...Half the radial catchment area of these stations is occupied by airport land/army stores/the motor auctions. The other half of the catchment area covers industrial areas, which tend to have lower levels of activity density, and would be very 'peaky' in terms of passenger demand.


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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 11:19:36 AM »
I heard a few years ago that there was an idea floated of reopening Eagle Farm station, with a relocation further east to join up with the new through road though Aust Trade Coast and a bus/rail interchange built at Eagle Farm.  This would've included a high frequency bus between Murrarie, Northshore Hamilton, Aust Trade Coast, Airport One and Toombul.

One of the concerns was the indirect nature of the Doomben line which may not be as attractive as a more direct bus route using KSD and/or the extended Citycat to Northshore.

I'm not sure what happened about that idea, perhaps shelved?

Offline #Metro

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 11:52:39 AM »
Quote
I'm thinking that I'd rather see the line converted to Tram-Train operation (See what they are doing in Adelaide on the Tonsley line
), use the existing alignment obviously, but when it gets to Hamilton north shore, thread it through the heart of the development and incorporate the trams into the urban environment.

This is possible, but I've decided that I am actually against light rail operation on the Doomben line.
While technically possible, it would require an unnecessary extra level of effort compared to simply running more standard trains.
If labour is the largest cost of rail operations, the savings would really be minimal IMHO.

Better integration with the QR network (i.e. through-running from Cleveland) would be possible simply if standard trains were run and the need to purchase specialised stock and set up specialised maintainence facilities and works would also be avoided.

The only way I see LRT being run to KSD is if it were to replace the proposal for a busway from the CBD on KSD. But IMHO a bus + heavy rail connection would be just fine.

Quote
No point going up towards the old terminus at Pinkenba IMO...Half the radial catchment area of these stations is occupied by airport land/army stores/the motor auctions. The other half of the catchment area covers industrial areas, which tend to have lower levels of activity density, and would be very 'peaky' in terms of passenger demand.

I would agree. I think rail + bus or even a very flexible frequent flexilink service would do the job for beyond Doomben and NorthShore.

Quote
One of the concerns was the indirect nature of the Doomben line which may not be as attractive as a more direct bus route using KSD and/or the extended Citycat to Northshore.

I would disagree with the indirectness argument. Rail has a higher level of comfort, would integrate perfectly into the existing QR network (just extend Cleveland line trains) and is also runs in ROW class A, while buses run in ROW class B or ROW class C (mixed traffic, affected by congestion) which is more unreliable, lower speed (as congestion increases) and lower capacity. Rail would support the TOD much better IMHO. The key point is that when you compare travel times of the Doomben train vs Route 305, rail is faster.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 05:50:47 PM by tramtrain »
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Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 11:53:25 AM »
Check out the timetables, rail wins hands down, despite the route.

And with the increasing congestion becomes the real alternative.  

I think we will see it happen.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2010, 05:49:40 PM »
Edit: Yes, had a look again. Rail is faster, not identical...  :-t


Doomben Train station: 19 minutes
Route 305, from Adelaide St to Lancaster road stop: 32 minutes

Rail is 13 minutes faster
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STB

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2010, 06:27:14 PM »
I'm curious, if there was a bus lane along KSD with express services from Northshore Hamilton, would this be any faster than the train (keep in mind that you need to get from Northshore to Doomben station, make the transfer (allow 5mins) then get on the all stops to the City.

somebody

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2010, 06:31:28 PM »
One thing I think needs to be done is make the CityCat stop at Teneriffe rather than Bulimba.  That would allow for transfers to the CityGlider.

Offline #Metro

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2010, 06:51:00 PM »
STB, if the station was built at NorthShore as Ozbob said, you would walk to the train.
You could use buses, but buses by themselves only won't have the capacity, comfort, ROW Class A or labour efficiencies or TOD development impacts and network integration that simply extending the line would have. Running along KSD would also mean that stations such as Hendra, Ascot, Doomben etc also miss out on improved services.
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Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2010, 06:53:59 PM »
Forgot about this as well, very very relevant now ..

--> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4682.msg37081#msg37081
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STB

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2010, 06:56:18 PM »
I'm just keeping in mind that if the railway was built out, logic tells me that it'd be better to build Eagle Farm station to provide equal access between Australia Trade Coast and Northshore Hamilton.

I am aware of the benefits of the rail line, I'm just asking out of pure curiosity of what would be faster when taking in the knowledge that you have to get to the station to access the train if the train station was between the two developments of equal distance, give or take.

Offline #Metro

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2010, 07:09:22 PM »
I'm sure that when they do a proper study of the options this could be taken into consideration.
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Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2010, 07:21:16 PM »
If the line was branched to Hamilton Northshore newer transit station for the ATC could be placed between Doomben and Hamilton NorthShore, just before the present Eagle Farm station.  This would work for a bus feeder into the rail head as ATC is a wide spread out area generally.

There is no way a bus lanes will be added to KSD, no way that the latest plans for roads in rivers etc. will ever be built IMHO.  There is a talkfest in parliament today and tomorrow convincing all to stop the road madness.  Survival is going to start to dictate real solutions. The utilisation of existing assets is both sensible and practical.   The Doomben line is about to be reborn folks.

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Offline #Metro

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2010, 07:25:55 PM »
Yes, there could be multiple stations. Bicycles are also a goer as the distances are shorter.
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Offline paulg

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2010, 07:53:51 AM »
The extension of the Doomben line to Northshore Hamilton is included in the ULDA development scheme, see Figure 1 of this document:
http://www.ulda.qld.gov.au/_dbase_upl/NSHDSTotal.pdf
http://www.ulda.qld.gov.au/01_cms/details.asp?ID=143
Unfortunately it is not proposed to be built in the early stages of the development, p5: "The UDA will be serviced by an at-grade rapid transit system. Dedicated future bus and heavy rail corridor options are preserved within the urban structure." I assume "at-grade rapid transit" means bus :)

Cheers, Paul

Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2010, 08:01:47 AM »
Hopefully the heavy rail extensions will be done sooner now.

 :-t
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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2010, 08:02:24 AM »
Media release 16 November 2010

SEQ: The next station ... is North Shore

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters believes that Brisbane could have its own North Shore rail line.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"North Shore Hamilton is set to become Brisbane's next South Bank. And any transport solution must include upgrading and extending the Doomben Line in a cutting under Kingsford Smith to new station(s), including at North Shore Hamilton."

The extension and revitalisation of the existing Doomben line will provide:

* The highest level of capacity (a 6 car SMU 260 train every 10 minutes in peak would move 5496 people, even more if more frequent)
* The highest level of speed (Doomben trains are up to 13 minutes faster to the CBD than the route 305 bus)
* The highest level of reliability
* The highest level of traffic priority (completely separate from the road network and road congestion)
* The highest level of network integration and mobility
* The highest level of support for Transit Oriented Development (TOD)
* The highest level of safety for transport, (train travel is safer than car travel)
* The highest level of passenger comfort (smooth ride, many trains are brand new with more to come)
* The highest level of image and quality of service
* The highest level of cost efficiency
* The highest level of labour productivity (2 staff per 916 passengers) (1)
* The highest environmental benefits, with zero local exhaust
* The reduction in the costs of road trauma
* Quick to implement and value for money by leveraging off existing rail infrastructure
* Significantly improved rail services for Clayfield, Ascot, Hendra and Doomben residents
* Interchange with buses will allow access to rail from street stops

"In the 1950s works pre-prepared the Doomben line for duplication, and an extension to North Shore Hamilton isn't far which makes it a real goer. The rail station and high quality services will transform the land use around the station and is a perfect match for TOD."

"The people in the extra 3000 vehicles in peak hour mentioned in the media articles could easily be carried by the train with room to spare and further prospects for future capacity increases if required (2). A single, quick interchange at Eagle Junction, Central or Roma Street would allow quick access to destinations all over SEQ on rapid ExpressLink, UrbanLink and Cross-River Rail trains and to all destinations on the busway network."

"RAIL Back on Track agrees that all levels of government- councils, state and federal could contribute. (2) As the Moreton Bay Regional Council and Gold Coast City Council have contributed funds ($105 million for heavy rail, $120 million for Light Rail, respectively) a contribution from the Brisbane City Council to make this rail project happen would not be unprecedented. (3)"

"Now is the time to take off the 'road coloured glasses' and look for real solutions that will still work as petrol prices and interest rates continue going through the roof. (4) Many overseas places have already made tracks (5)", Mr Dow concluded.

References:

1. Queensland Rail, Fleet
http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/RailServices/City/Fleet/Pages/SMU260.aspx

2. Northshore Hamilton affordable housing development to choke Kingsford Smith Drive
http://www.couriermail.com.au/property/northshore-hamilton-affordable-housing-development-to-choke-kingsford-smith-drive/story-e6frequ6-1225953459721

3. SEQ: Rail to Kippa-Ring, just the thing!
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4845.0

4. Road Coloured Glasses
http://backontrack.org/images/rcg.png

5. Look to Vancouver, town planners told
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/15/3066974.htm

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
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Offline SteelPan

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2010, 09:26:52 PM »
This should happen  :-t  Let's keep making alot of  :pr  :pr  :pr  well-done as ever to Ozbob & Co!
If urban rail was a sports stadium - there'd be a station on every corner!  Keep it LOUD for Pro-Rail!  :pr

Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2010, 02:27:18 PM »
Presently at Doomben.  Had a good look at Clayfield, Ascot and Doomben.  About to get the rail bus to Hendra.

Plenty of room for complete duplication.  This rail corridor is priceless ...

Fairly overcast day today, the lite semaphore signals at Ascot are something special ..
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Offline Gazza

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2010, 05:44:59 PM »
Quote
I'm just keeping in mind that if the railway was built out, logic tells me that it'd be better to build Eagle Farm station to provide equal access between Australia Trade Coast and Northshore Hamilton.

I am aware of the benefits of the rail line, I'm just asking out of pure curiosity of what would be faster when taking in the knowledge that you have to get to the station to access the train if the train station was between the two developments of equal distance, give or take.
I think in this case putting the station in NSH should take precedence over branching to Eagle Farm/ATC due to activity density.  Basically, at NSH you'll have high density housing, and offices. Offices are pretty much the most intensive generators of trips since you have lots of people in little cubes, stacked floor on floor above each other. As a place, NSH will generate trips 7 days a week since it'll be a weekend/night destination with its cafes, residents will go about their lives etc.

But with ATC this is not the case, much of the land is not taken up by people, but by 'stuff', and  there is a generous amount of space per worker due to the nature of what goes on (Eg a handful of workers taking care of a broad warehouse) , plus on top of this ATC will be fairly inactive on weekends and outside of working hours. Plus the area is so broad it's not like it could be done without buses regardless.

Much better IMO to have a station in the heart of NHS so all residents can "walk up" rather than enforcing an annoying 5 minute bus ride, and then serve the industrial areas via a bus loop.

The bus loop could just go to the end of KSD, along Curtin Ave along Fison Ave, and then back onto KSD. That would cover the whole area with nobody more than 500m from the route.

Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2010, 06:20:42 PM »
Clayfield


















Hendra




















Ascot



















Doomben











Photographs R Dow 18th November 2010
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 07:25:17 AM by ozbob »
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colinw

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2010, 10:53:17 PM »
In those photos, particularly the Clayfield & Hendra ones, you can clearly see signs of the 1950s duplication project, both the extra platform faces and the wide corridor just sitting there ready to take track.

The whole line is looking a bit tired & rundown.  :(

Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2010, 05:27:52 AM »
The Doomben rail corridor is an extremely valuable asset.  Time for it be reborn!
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Offline Emmie

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2010, 05:53:40 AM »
Thanks for the photos Bob.  It certainly looks both ready and able to take duplication.

Another factor, I think, is that the line was originally designed to handle race crowds, few of whom would use the train these days. But there are persistent rumors (always denied for political reasons) that one of the racetracks will be sold off for housing, in which case commuter demand will certainly rise, even without extending the line to Portside.

Offline #Metro

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2010, 07:09:46 AM »
There are already re-development plans to TODify one of the race tracks (not replace, but upgrade) in a similar way to RNA Showgrounds.  Doomben line has been too long the yuck line. Time to turn it around.
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Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2010, 08:02:48 AM »
Added a few more photographs to the post above here.

I wonder if it is possible to get a heritage preservation order on the semaphore signals ...  ;)  when the line is upgraded they could be converted to automatic semaphores.  The VR narrow gauge Gembrook line  (now 'Puffing Billy) was an early system to have automatic semaphore signalling, amazing.  Operational from 21 December 1921!
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Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2010, 06:47:31 AM »
From the City North News 25th November pages 1 and 5

Way off track

Front page




Page 5

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Offline ghostryder

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2010, 04:42:26 PM »
Bob/all
Duplication of the Pinkenba line was first raised in 1911-12 by Commisioner Evans who at the time felt that the Pinkenba line would require duplication within 5 years. Preliminary work was carried out in 1911. But went no further, Duplication work started again after World War 2 to Whinstanes but the project was stopped before track was laid. Over the years several stations have been rebuilt, Clayfield rebuilt when regarding work at Sandgate road and Eagle Junction was carried out in the 1950s. Hendra station was rebuilt 1972-73 in its current location prior to being rebuilt the station was located on the northern side of the line near where the disused northern platform is now. Doomben and Whinstanes closed in the mid 70s and rebuilt in the current location both Doomben and Whinstanes featured very low level platforms that could be only served by Evans cars, and Pinkenba was relocated from near the grain silos to the site it was relocated to and used until passenger services were terminated beyond Doomben. And prior to Electrification there used to be a couple of sidings and a third track at Ascot.

Information from Brunswick st Bowen Hills and Beyond

scott

Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2010, 05:30:43 PM »
Thanks for that information.  I was aware of the various efforts post WW2 for duplication but not the earlier. 

Might just happen one day!   :D
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Offline Gazza

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2010, 12:41:35 AM »
I wonder if it is possible to get a heritage preservation order on the semaphore signals ...  ;) 
I thought it'd be better to have standard signals across the network...plus it'd only be train fans that would notice the semaphores lol.

If you did want to see them preserved, perhaps just uproot them, and gather them all together and make a little forest of them in the forecourt of one of the upgraded stations on the Doomben line.

Online ozbob

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2010, 03:40:20 AM »
 :), it was a little  :P  
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 03:42:31 AM by ozbob »
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Offline mufreight

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2010, 09:10:17 AM »
I wonder if it is possible to get a heritage preservation order on the semaphore signals ...  ;) 
I thought it'd be better to have standard signals across the network...plus it'd only be train fans that would notice the semaphores lol.

If you did want to see them preserved, perhaps just uproot them, and gather them all together and make a little forest of them in the forecourt of one of the upgraded stations on the Doomben line.

Actually it would be relatively simple and of little cost with the use a bit of technology for the semaphore signals to be modified to give the same light indications as current signals and preserve their heritage apperance

Offline Gazza

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2010, 09:35:33 AM »
^Why didn't they do that with the old signals on the rest of the network?

Offline ghostryder

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2010, 11:36:15 AM »
All
IIRC these signals have been retained for signal training and tuition, as there are/were other semaphores in other parts of the state.

scott

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2010, 11:50:30 AM »
g'day ghostryder,

just a quick abbreviation question, what does IIRC stand for ?
Is it "It Is Reasonable to Conclude" ? Only cliche I can think of that would fit.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Offline Mozz

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2010, 11:53:54 AM »
If I recall correctly

Offline #Metro

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2010, 12:01:31 PM »
Abbreviations: http://netforbeginners.about.com/cs/netiquette101/a/abbreviations.htm
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Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: NorthShore / Doomben Line
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2010, 12:05:28 PM »
Thank you Mozz and Tramtrain.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.
Regards,
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