88 Bus Route was Rumour: 88 8 mile plains to Indro

[somebody]

Its the screen doors isn't it? Not all of the stops are set up with them spaced for an artic.

Yes, and just the length of the stop.

Only the 111 & 66 stops are artic capable.

It is unlikely that any media will run anything against the 88 whilst TransLink are paying for the route 88 ads in various publications.

Sad but true. 

Ha!  Never thought about that.


I do wonder if as people start to understand what this "route 88" actually is, if a few more pax will use it.

[O_128]

Sitting at indro bus stop , 88 just went past empty. Totally forgot it existed, MOVE IT!!!!!!

[STB]

I boarded rte 88 this afternoon around 3pm at Roma St and counted 8 passengers on board, 5 of them got off at KGSBS and it took nearly 15mins to travel from KGSBS to Buranda simply from a busjam in the QSBS tunnel (caused by the lights at that intersection to exit the tunnel), and then got every light after that on William St!

[Golliwog]

RE: The Indooroopilly stop location.

I had a look today, and it really isn't that far between the 88 bus stop and the rest of the interchange. I do however think that there should be better signage of that stop with signs at the main interchange displaying the timetable for the 88 and where to catch it from.

[somebody]

RE: The Indooroopilly stop location.

I had a look today, and it really isn't that far between the 88 bus stop and the rest of the interchange. I do however think that there should be better signage of that stop with signs at the main interchange displaying the timetable for the 88 and where to catch it from.

Problem is that you can't wait for the next bus to the city at any location.

It's the same as the QSBS/KGSBS/Adelaide St problem heading outbound.

[Golliwog]

Yes, but if they've done the timetables properly (I haven't checked) then the 88 shouldn't be turning up near the 444, so you can pick one or the other.

[somebody]

Yes, but if they've done the timetables properly (I haven't checked) then the 88 shouldn't be turning up near the 444, so you can pick one or the other.

Doesn't cut it.  This only works if the buses run exactly to time.

EDIT: And even if that happened, it would still make the system needlessly annoying.

[Golliwog]

Perhaps, but there is limited capacity in the interchange. I also think that they should have built it (the interchange) on Moggil Rd. The detour to the other end of the shopping center and back is a waste of time for all passengers who go straight through.

[somebody]

Perhaps, but there is limited capacity in the interchange. I also think that they should have built it (the interchange) on Moggil Rd. The detour to the other end of the shopping center and back is a waste of time for all passengers who go straight through.

At first I thought that would be quite difficult, but thinking some more, it actually could have been done relatively easily with an interchange outside Myer and another 2 places where buses (only) can turn right when heading inbound.  Would have resulted in the loss of a number of parking spaces, so may not have been popular.

It also means that areas a long way from the train station are now better served.

[Golliwog]

My ideal interchange there would actually be kind of like the Cultural Center with indented busbays on either side of Moggil Rd, with what is currently a signalised pedestrian crossing turned into a pedestrian over/under pass. The more traffic lights and intersections the bus has to navigate the longer it will take, and this way they don't have to giveway to traffic already on the road, as they will just be pulling out of a bus stop.

[somebody]

My ideal interchange there would actually be kind of like the Cultural Center with indented busbays on either side of Moggil Rd, with what is currently a signalised pedestrian crossing turned into a pedestrian over/under pass. The more traffic lights and intersections the bus has to navigate the longer it will take, and this way they don't have to giveway to traffic already on the road, as they will just be pulling out of a bus stop.

That's the sort of thing they would do in Sydney, although without the pedestrian overpass.  Waringah Mall is an example.  Got to say, I do believe the Brisbane way is better.  I'm not a fan of needing to negotiate stairs, or (worse) a ramp on both sides of the road.

[Golliwog]

I'm just not a big fan of diverting the buses off the through route. It just wastes time, especially with the inbound routes having to wait for the lights to change to get in and again to get out.

[somebody]

In this case I think it is justified.  It's a whole lot less of a deviation than the current setup, and similar to what the outbound 330 does at Chermside.  Tie in the entry to the interchange with the pedestrian crossing, and you only need to worry about the outbound.  It would be a longer walk than present to the cinemas & food court though.  It also isn't that pretty at times that Myer isn't open.  There would need to be some covered path at a minimum.

[#Metro]

Interchanges are for buses. If the bus isn't going into the interchange, what is the point???
It also makes transfers and getting passengers much easier.

Maybe this route should just be canned.

[Golliwog]

Yeah if you were going to change where the interchange was (with either of the options) you would want to tie it in with a change to the shopping center as well. As you would be removing the parking that exists there, perhaps to make access easier, the bottom floor of Myer could be removed and become an extension of how the rest of the center is set up (ie: smaller shops on either side) and Myer could have extra space built for it to expand its other floors so they go above where the old car park was.

[somebody]

Maybe this route should just be canned.

I would expect in Sydney this route wouldn't last long.  However, Brisbane does things differently.  There is a lot of reluctance to mess with an existing service.

[#Metro]

We should not be afraid of the slasher. If a service needs to be cut, cut it!
There are better uses for those bus-km, and the bus-km freed up can be recycled into better services that will get more patronage elsewhere (BUZ 450, BUZ 100, GCL)

Chop Chop!!!   

[kingsjjk]

one problem with the Route 88 it doe not service the indroopilly interchange but terminates one stop prior to the Indroopilly interchange.

My suggestion is one that the service services the interchange then proceeds to the currently unused Stop in Station Road close to the Indroopilly Railway Station this would encourage more to use this service from the city and have the city bound 88's service the Indroopilly Interchange

[O_128]

Ok so I've always thought  the people at translink are stupid but now I know what idiots they truly are, why are the 444 and 88 not paced at 7.5 mins at kgs instead of both arriving within 4 mins to leave an 11 min gap till the next bus, how hard can it be ?

[somebody]

My suggestion is one that the service services the interchange then proceeds to the currently unused Stop in Station Road close to the Indroopilly Railway Station this would encourage more to use this service from the city and have the city bound 88's service the Indroopilly Interchange

Not sure what stop you mean, but I don't really see the point of this, except in the interim period until the train frequency is upgraded.  And it would also mean a round the block trip to start the next service.

Ok so I've always thought  the people at translink are stupid but now I know what idiots they truly are, why are the 444 and 88 not paced at 7.5 mins at kgs instead of both arriving within 4 mins to leave an 11 min gap till the next bus, how hard can it be ?

I don't think you need to look further than what they did on the opening of KGSBS to find confirmation of this - moves which have caused this route to be created.

[ozbob]

From the Westside News 22nd December 2010 page 5

Reaction mixed to route 88

[somebody]

Reaction mixed to route 88

Maybe hammer the city stop location issue again?

[#Metro]

Send it to the scrapper!

Relieve congestion? There are already rockets in peak hour, for example 133 Sunnybank is a rocket which runs every 5 minutes.
There is no significant congestion in the off peak with the busway system, and actually, the busway performs very well in the off peak.

Congestion could be relieved in some way by getting bigger buses- like those superbuses which can carry 110 passengers.
I note that 400 series buses now do not serve Cultural Centre during peak hour...

Those bus route-km would be better recycled for another service like BUZ 450 or a BUZ 100.

All door boarding should be looked at.

[somebody]

I note that 400 series buses now do not serve Cultural Centre during peak hour...

This has been going on for years.  What is relatively new is not serving it outbound in the AM peak.

[somebody]

Those bus route-km would be better recycled for another service like BUZ 450 or a BUZ 100.

Rather than hammering the BUZ 450, I'd rather hit this idea of yours: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4448.0
Although I'm a bit hesitant in its current form.  I'd really much rather the "red route" go via Dandenong Rd & Sumners Rd rather than Riverhills Rd.

I'd be inclined to push for these both becoming a BUZ, extending to the city and going via Coro to QSBS.

I think I'd rather hammer this point than go on about the city stops.

[#Metro]

Ok, just draw up your proposal in googlemaps and post it.
That way it can be linked if there is any future media release.

a) BUZ 450 would be good. Naturally the others around it will probably have to be re-organised as well once the BUZ is in.

[somebody]

Ok, just draw up your proposal in googlemaps and post it.
That way it can be linked if there is any future media release.

a) BUZ 450 would be good. Naturally the others around it will probably have to be re-organised as well once the BUZ is in.

What others?  The 450 is an awful route.

Here's what I am thinking of: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=207811834889795565086.000497f6c7dffbd8f313a&ll=-27.516341,152.958698&spn=0.130777,0.162392&t=h&z=13

Scrapping the 88, 450, 453, 454 for 2 BUZes on these routes IMO is the answer to much of the Centenary suburbs PT and traffic congestion issues.

[#Metro]

Please don't confuse the current 450 with a future, improved BUZ 450.
Yes it has the same number, but I doubt it would or should have the same route.

You need to log into googlemaps
When you finish drawing a line, you will double click to finish the line.
When you do that, a bubble will come up, you can change the colour, opacity and thickness of the line.

Explanations here: http://maps.google.com/support/bin/static.py?hl=en&page=guide.cs&guide=21670&topic=21676

[#Metro]

I can't help but think that situations like the route 88 have come about because there seems to be no formal procedural steps for vetting, trialling and review process for services. It's the same for the Ipswich services, and the same for the route 393.

"Ideas" were put in the newspaper by a media release (red and blue/green lines IIRC) which was route 88, but not specified as such. Then signs suddenly went up, and people started scratching their heads.
Then a bus was suddenly announced.

It looks like there is some procedure in place- the ipswich buses were shown to have low patronage, the 393 was obviously reviewed, there was a pipsqueak hint of a route 88, but this seems inconsistently applied.

I think there should be a standard procedure or guide to be followed. A financial standard that says if the costs to get patrons on the service is $ X / person the service is made permanent, or if it is below $ X / person it is considered for cutting. Any new bus services should be introduced as mandatory trial services for 6 months, and "confirmed" after a financial and patronage analysis shows that it is worthwhile and drawing in new patrons rather than route 88 which IMHO is probably cannibalizing patronage on existing services.

Each year, information about this should be compiled and published so the info is out there in the public.

I will develop this idea further.

[somebody]

One of the ones I like is the 151/153.  At one time, there was only a 151.  Then came a theoretically superior 153 via the Gateway, but they were reluctant to change the 151, so the 153 must do a milk run to pick up enough pax to justify its existence.

393 reviewed??

[frereOP]

Can anyone tell me what the logic is for this P88 service to NOT stop at any of the busway stations between King George Square and Buranda?  Why have the friggin' thing if you have to change buses to get to where you want to go beyond the city anyway!

The logic in having this bus run express from King George Square to Buranda is that people from the Western Suburbs don't want or need to go to Southbank, don't want or need to go the the IMAX theatres where movies are $8.50 compared to Event Indooroopilly where they are $16.50, and don't want or need to go to the Mater Hospital because they never get sick. FFS give me a break!

What overpaid undertalented bureaucratic IDIOT (replace with whatever highly derogative expletive you think appropriate) decided this?  Surely if they had inherited the family brain cell, they would run it express from Indooroopilly to Roma St to take pressure off the 444 then stop at all stations to 8 Mile Plains.

A better option would be to combine the two services and have 444's go from Moggill to 8 Mile Plains.

[#Metro]

Frere OP, it's called "Flexibility".
The idea is that you get a faster trip.

Although I would point out a very subtle point: Let's say you are standing at the bus stop and 444 pulls up. But you want the express trip, so you might wait 10 minutes for that next bus and save 10 minutes because it runs express between KGS and Buranda. So basically it doesn't seem that you are better off really.

Why didn't they just add more 444s and 111s? There are heaps of rockets from the CBD already too, easy to transfer to those.
IMHO the benefit really is in peak hour when people getting off at Roma St can get the P88 and bypass KGS etcetera.

I can see the logic of why they wanted to do this- a one seat ride from 8 Mile Plains to Indooroopilly.
Not sure if it is as essential to have the single seat though. Jury seems to be out on that.

[#Metro]

A better option would be to combine the two services and have 444's go from Moggill to 8 Mile Plains.

I suspect this is not an option. Here's why:

1. There is no Western Busway (although we have the 'Busway on Steel Wheels' there, sshhh, don't tell anyone about the upgrades there!)
2. Bus lanes on Coronation Drive were removed, so there is only traffic congestion on Coro Drive
3. If you combine 444 with 111, 111 is going to be severely impacted by congestion on Coro Drive. Buses can
easily be delayed 15 minutes to one hour plus on that road. 111 carries many pax, so that would be a catastrophe.

[frereOP]

Frere OP, it's called "Flexibility".
The idea is that you get a faster trip.

Although I would point out a very subtle point: Let's say you are standing at the bus stop and 444 pulls up. But you want the express trip, so you might wait 10 minutes for that next bus and save 10 minutes because it runs express between KGS and Buranda. So basically it doesn't seem that you are better off really.

Good point Tramtrain and of course this applies to any "Express", "Rocket" service (eg should I take a 454 which leaves 5 mins earlier and takes 10 mins longer to catch a 455 which might be late?)

But I still don't understand why a bus coming from one side of town to take passengers to the other side of town doesn't stop at the very stations that many people will want to get off.  I'm not sure how many people will do the entire trip but there must be a lot who start somewhere between I'pilly and Roma St who want to get off beyond the city but before Buranda.  To that extent, it makes more sense for the 88 to not stop at Roma St, KGS or CC because these are serviced by 444 and many other 4-series and 3-series buses, some of which continue further out along the busway.

Translink must have data on Go-Card transfers for people who rode a bus to the city then transferred to a bus then got off at CC SB or MH.  It would be interesting to compare these figures to those for people who took a single seat ride on the 88 from I'pilly to stations beyond MH..

[somebody]

Can anyone tell me what the logic is for this P88 service to NOT stop at any of the busway stations between King George Square and Buranda?  Why have the friggin' thing if you have to change buses to get to where you want to go beyond the city anyway!

The logic in having this bus run express from King George Square to Buranda is that people from the Western Suburbs don't want or need to go to Southbank, don't want or need to go the the IMAX theatres where movies are $8.50 compared to Event Indooroopilly where they are $16.50, and don't want or need to go to the Mater Hospital because they never get sick. FFS give me a break!

What overpaid undertalented bureaucratic IDIOT (replace with whatever highly derogative expletive you think appropriate) decided this?  Surely if they had inherited the family brain cell, they would run it express from Indooroopilly to Roma St to take pressure off the 444 then stop at all stations to 8 Mile Plains.

A better option would be to combine the two services and have 444's go from Moggill to 8 Mile Plains.

Perhaps congestion in peak hour along this stretch is one of the main parts of the reason.  But why have it at all?  Just have a common stop location for the 111 & 160 and add weekend trips to the 160.  (The 88 doesn't have evening trips.)

As for the 444, this should never have reversed its direction through the Cultural Centre.  Post Go-Between Bridge, it needs to be put into QSBS B like the 440 was before it.  The alternative idea is to take all the 4xx express buses out of the Cultural Centre, and run on Adelaide St, inbound at least.  Now that there is a reasonable train frequency between Indooroopilly and Roma St, as well as the BUZ 412, it might be an idea to review this.

As for getting from the SE Busway to Mater Hill, the P88 does help this as you can interchange for a quite frequent service really.

As for a combined 111 & 444, I agree with TT.

Although I would point out a very subtle point: Let's say you are standing at the bus stop and 444 pulls up. But you want the express trip, so you might wait 10 minutes for that next bus and save 10 minutes because it runs express between KGS and Buranda. So basically it doesn't seem that you are better off really.

No way does the "Express" make that much difference.  Actually the all stops routes are noticeably faster than the expresses as they don't need to go through the Cultural Centre or deal with the bus turnaround.  All stops vs 444/P88 is about the same, so long as you aren't heading near Creek St.

Why didn't they just add more 444s

That wouldn't be appropriate.  There are a number of other 4xx services which require an upgrade.

IMHO the benefit really is in peak hour when people getting off at Roma St can get the P88 and bypass KGS etcetera. 

Look at the timetable.  I'm sure that I have said before (perhaps not here) that the main reason for this route is to reduce complaints about the 444 & 111.  The timetable shows that the P88 leaves KGSBS/Roma St shortly before the 444, so it makes it more difficult to get a congested 444.

Although I agree with your point about avoiding South Bank being mainly for peak.

I can see the logic of why they wanted to do this- a one seat ride from 8 Mile Plains to Indooroopilly.
Not sure if it is as essential to have the single seat though. Jury seems to be out on that.

They have far bigger fish to fry than this one.  But they would really rather not promote PT use.  They are more interested in reducing complaints.  I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it.  This is only one manifestation of their somewhat misguided infrastructure fetish, which seems to be accepted as normal and appropriate in this town.

But I still don't understand why a bus coming from one side of town to take passengers to the other side of town doesn't stop at the very stations that many people will want to get off.  I'm not sure how many people will do the entire trip but there must be a lot who start somewhere between I'pilly and Roma St who want to get off beyond the city but before Buranda.  To that extent, it makes more sense for the 88 to not stop at Roma St, KGS or CC because these are serviced by 444 and many other 4-series and 3-series buses, some of which continue further out along the busway.

These people have the 425/430/435/450/453/454/460 which go to the Cultural Centre first, and they can then interchange.

Translink must have data on Go-Card transfers for people who rode a bus to the city then transferred to a bus then got off at CC SB or MH.  It would be interesting to compare these figures to those for people who took a single seat ride on the 88 from I'pilly to stations beyond MH..

You are too kind.

[frereOP]

But I still don't understand why a bus coming from one side of town to take passengers to the other side of town doesn't stop at the very stations that many people will want to get off.  I'm not sure how many people will do the entire trip but there must be a lot who start somewhere between I'pilly and Roma St who want to get off beyond the city but before Buranda.  To that extent, it makes more sense for the 88 to not stop at Roma St, KGS or CC because these are serviced by 444 and many other 4-series and 3-series buses, some of which continue further out along the busway.

These people have the 425/430/435/450/453/454/460 which go to the Cultural Centre first, and they can then interchange.

That's fine for people who use those services .  My beef is the P88 bypassing SB and MH.  The 425...460 users should be able to transfer at I'pilly to a P88 to go to SB or MH.  The P88 doesn't need to stop at RS, KGS or CC because of the 444 so if they want to make it really useful, have it by-pass these and add in SB and MH.

After all, it ain't rocket science.

[somebody]

That's fine for people who use those services .  My beef is the P88 bypassing SB and MH.  The 425...460 users should be able to transfer at I'pilly to a P88 to go to SB or MH.  The P88 doesn't need to stop at RS, KGS or CC because of the 444 so if they want to make it really useful, have it by-pass these and add in SB and MH.

After all, it ain't rocket science.

So, if the 88 served SB & MH you would transfer at Cribb St...Taringa from a 425...460 and go via the CBD rather than avoiding it entirely with a Cultural Centre interchange?  I certainly wouldn't.  I can deal with the bit where you have to swap platforms at the Cultural Centre.

You can't transfer at Indooroopilly unless you don't mind walking a few hundred metres to stop 24.  Why would you want to?

[frereOP]

So, if the 88 served SB & MH you would transfer at Cribb St...Taringa from a 425...460 and go via the CBD rather than avoiding it entirely with a Cultural Centre interchange?  I certainly wouldn't.  I can deal with the bit where you have to swap platforms at the Cultural Centre.

You can't transfer at Indooroopilly unless you don't mind walking a few hundred metres to stop 24.  Why would you want to?

If the P88 didn't stop at RS, KGS and CC, it could easily be re-routed across the Grey St (or God forbid the GB) Bridge from Coro drive and turn straight onto the SE Busway from Melbourne St avoiding the city completely.  Whether you rerouted it via the Grey St Bridge or the GBB heading towards I'pilly would be an operational issue depending on how easy it would be for buses inbound to the city to turn left onto Melbourne St.

As for the interchange, I agree.  If space is the issue, move the 598/599 to Stop 24 and bring the P88 to Interchange "C".

This is called "Thinking outside the box" but it seems just a bit too difficult for our transport planners.

[somebody]

I'm really not a fan of such ideas regarding the 88 rerouting.  I don't like adding a new move, and therefore a new cycle to the traffic lights, to an already congested intersection.

I also really don't think you can expect a direct connection between the west and SB.  Interchange isn't that hard really.

As for Indro interchange, it is plenty big enough.  I think stop 24 is used as it allows for the bus to lay over without moving.  As for not serving the Interchange on the inbound, I think that is done just because of TL's view that you cannot serve it inbound if it isn't served outbound.  Just plain stupid IMO.  In this case, it actually makes the service less legible.

[frereOP]

.
I also really don't think you can expect a direct connection between the west and SB.  Interchange isn't that hard really.

That STILL doesn't explain why the 88 doesn't stop at SB and MH now.  I understand your points but it makes no sense not to stop at these stations.