Roads - articles and discussion

[ozbob]

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2012/12/31/gateway-north-needs-federal-labor-commitment

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Scott Emerson

Gateway North needs Federal Labor commitment

The Newman Government is calling on Federal Labor to match the Federal Coalition's commitment to provide funding for a long overdue upgrade the Gateway Motorway.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Scott Emerson said the Gateway Upgrade North project risked becoming a victim of the former Bligh Government's financial mismanagement.

"If elected, the Federal Coalition has committed $1 billion towards upgrading the Gateway Motorway between Nudgee and the Bruce Highway," Mr Emerson said.

"The financial mess left by State Labor means if Federal Labor failed to match the commitment and formed Government the project can't currently be afforded.

"Most of the Gateway and Logan Motorways were privatised by the Bligh government, leaving the section from Nudgee to the Bruce Highway – known as Gateway Motorway North – as a state-controlled road.

"Ironically it happens to be the section that needs a taxpayer funded upgrade."

Queensland Motorways was privatised in 2011. The agreement struck by the Bligh Government covers the entire Logan Motorway, Gateway Extension and Gateway Motorway from the Logan Motorway to Nudgee. 

"If funding isn't committed by the Federal Government to the section north of Nudgee then we would need to consider delaying the project several years or tolling – neither of which is likely to be supported by up to 100,000 motorists who use that stretch of road each day," Mr Emerson said.

The Department of Transport and Main Roads released a draft plan to the community in June 2011 to upgrade the Gateway Motorway from Nudgee to the Bruce Highway.

Plans include widening to six lanes from Nudgee to the Deagon Deviation and the Deagon Deviation would also be widened between Depot Road and Bracken Ridge Road.

[ENDS] 31 December 2012

==================

[Mr X]

And where is the commitment for the NCL??

[ozbob]

Road transport is subsidised at very high levels, more than public transport (fuel levies, registration fees etc. no where near true costs).  Governments continue to be fixated on roads and costs continue to escalate out of control.

[#Metro]

How much money has been thrown at this monster road? It seems like it is permanently being upgraded, widened etc etc.
Slap a toll on it.

"If funding isn't committed by the Federal Government to the section north of Nudgee then we would need to consider delaying the project several years or tolling – neither of which is likely to be supported by up to 100,000 motorists who use that stretch of road each day," Mr Emerson said.

Oh puh-lease.

$1 billion divided & 100 000 trips per day

To pay off this upgrade within 30 years would be

30 years x 5.5 days/week x 52 weeks = 8580 days of tolls (the 0.5 in 5.5 is to catch some lower weekend patronage)

= $116,550 per day needs to be made

divide this by 100 000 = $1.16 per day, per trip required.


I'd say, slap a toll on it - there would still be a shortfall to plug, probably with public funds...


* Calculation assumes 30 year payback period (this could be longer up to 45 years depending on how quickly the road will wear out), doesn't discount future returns and assumes no traffic growth. So the real figure is likely to be less than $60 IMHO.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Government threatens Gateway Motorway toll

[Mr X]

165 days of tolls? Where does that figure come from? I doubt any toll road could be paid off in less than 6 months..?

Plus we need to consider interest repayments etc....

But ignoring interest, it would be $1.06/trip by my calculations. Assuming 30 years, each weekend day has 1/2 weekday traffic.
$33m a year/365 * 7/6 = $106K a day = $1.06 a vehicle

Not a particularly reliable estimate, I'm sure an accountant can come up with a better figure.

[#Metro]

Mr X, thank you for picking this up. I have made a mistake - I didn't multiply by the number of the weeks in the year - this has now been fixed and figures are in agreement with yours.

It would only be a pittance at around $1 or so.

In contrast 1 billion dollars of state funds could be spent on PT and do a lot of good.

TOLL IT

[#Metro]

"If funding isn't committed by the Federal Government to the section north of Nudgee then we would need to consider delaying the project several years or tolling – neither of which is likely to be supported by up to 100,000 motorists who use that stretch of road each day," Mr Emerson said.

I'm suspicious. Given the fact that it would only be $1 toll or doubling that $2 which seems very modest (cf. Clem 7, Airport Link, PT fares) I actually think the purpose of this release is to create a problem to wedge the Federal Gov't in an election year. It's quite obvious that the $1bn can be covered by just tolling that section and that's not going to be a huge impost.

[Stillwater]

Got it in one, TT.  More road politics, designed to force the fed's hand so that Qld gets a greater share of the national roads funding pie.  Pity we don't see some rail infrastructure funding politics - such as Campbell Newman announcing his government will build the section of CRR from the Brisbane River to Roma Street Station 'if the federal government commits to funding the remainder of the project.'

[Fares_Fair]

Gateway toll could rise to fund upgrade

by Ava Benny-Morrison | 31st Dec 2012 1:15 PM

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/gateway-toll-could-rise-fund-upgrade/1701578/

COMMUTERS could be slugged with another toll on the Gateway Motorway if the Commonwealth does not step up funding, the Newman Government warns.

The State Government has confirmed they would consider enforcing additional tolling on the commuter-heavy motorway if funding could not be sourced to support the upgrade of the section between Nudgee and the Bruce Highway.

Currently, car motorists are slugged with a $4 toll if they travel over the Gateway Bridges.

Main Roads and Transport Minister Scott Emerson said most of the Gateway Motorway was privatised under the former Labor Government except for the Gateway North section.

"Ironically, it happens to be the section that needs a taxpayer-funded upgrade," he said.

Mr Emerson conceded the federal Coalition had already promised to commit $1 billion to the road's upgrade if elected in 2013.

But if Labor held on to its reign and failed to commit to funding, the project would not go ahead.

"If funding isn't committed by the Federal Government to the section north of Nudgee then we would need to consider delaying the project several years or tolling - neither of which is likely to be supported by up to 100,000 motorists who use that stretch of road each day," Mr Emerson said.

Acting Opposition Leader Tim Mulherin accused the government of engaging in "Canberra bashings" to justify its own shortcomings.

"This is a government that has not funded a single new Main Roads project, in fact it has slashed Queensland's Transport and Main Roads rolling capital works budget by $1.6 billion," Mr Mulherin said.

"This is a government that now plans to slug motorists when they promised to lower the cost of living.

"The simple truth is this: The planned Gateway upgrade is going through the correct processes for consideration by the Federal Government's Infrastructure Australia.

"To impose a new toll while that process is in train is simply jumping the gun."

Plans for the upgrade include widening the road to six lanes from Nudgee to the Deagon deviation.

The Deagon deviation would also be widened between Depot Rd and Bracken Ridge Rd.

More than 100,000 vehicles use the Gateway bridges each day, according to Queensland Motorways.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> OPINION: Stop your carping ... if you want better roads, you need to pay for them

[Stillwater]

Tolling for major Brisbane roads plays out well in the bush.  People in Townsville, Cairns, Cunnamulla and everywhere in between don't get any direct benefit from a portion of their state taxes going to a costly six-lane or eight-lane road upgrade in SEQ.  They complain of a government interested in the South-East only.

That's transport.  Country hospitals and remote, one-teacher schools operate with hefty injections of government money, no doubt.  No thought of 'user pays' in that context.

While the government will cop some criticism for yet another road toll, the idea will boost government support in electorates outside the SEQ corner.

[Stillwater]

People don't like paying a toll on a road that they use already free of charge.  The argument for tolled roads stacks up when motorists are charged to use a brand new super-duper road between two points.

Imagine what would happen if the state government built two extra lanes on the (untolled) Ipswich motorway, then charged a toll for every motorist using it to help defray the cost.  The reality is that a whole new toll road will be required, forcing motorists to use either the current peak-period carpark or the new tolled road.

The Catch 22 is that commuters between Ipswich and Brisbane would take to the roads (where the state can charge a toll) in preference to catching a train (where Treasury is calculating that every new customer requires a subsidy that, in effect, is a drain on the public purse).

Put simply, the mindset among penny-pinchers is that each new PT user adds to the cost burden, every new toll-payer is a model citizen who pays their way.  And if you ride a bike?  Forget it.  Cancelling the bicycle lanes along the Centenary Highway is evidence of the government's mindset in that area.

[SurfRail]

Money needs to be spent from Cooroy and further north, no doubt, and while that is linked to the amount of freight trafficking down the highway the road itself is still in need of upgrading.

The thing I object to is money being spent on capacity upgrades south of Cooroy towards Brisbane.  Wasteful.

[Jonno]

Drove on the new Coroy section of highway the orher day and it is simply over engineered.  It is motorway standard when highway standard is required. No wonder it is 60M per km!!!

[somebody]

Imagine what would happen if the state government built two extra lanes on the (untolled) Ipswich motorway, then charged a toll for every motorist using it to help defray the cost.  The reality is that a whole new toll road will be required, forcing motorists to use either the current peak-period carpark or the new tolled road.

This virtually has happened in Sydney two decades or so ago.
1989: Sydney Harbour Bridge, 8 lanes, southbound toll: 20c
1993: Sydney Harbour Bridge+Sydney Harbour Tunnel, 7+4 general purpose lanes, southbound toll: $2

Wide public support.

[SurfRail]

I'm going to probably offend some people here, but here goes:

Queenslanders are too stupid to know what's good for them.

[Arnz]

^

I would also apply that to the serial complainers on QR's social media platforms (Facebook and twitter). While I do acknowledge there are those with genuine complaints, there are those that repeatedly nitpick over minor (sometimes 'first world') issues.

Especially to those on twitter that insist on calling the TL go card, the 'QR go card' in spite of the TL and Qld Government logos being prominent on the front and back of the go card with no QR logo anywhere.

[ozbob]

Twitter

53m Jeff Seeney @JeffSeeney

Inspecting plans for a Gateway Mwy upgrade from Nudgee to the Bruce Hwy - with @TonyAbbottMHR @scottemersonmp http://t.co/41Foh4GS

[HappyTrainGuy]

Looks like they are at the Boondall-Deagon work site for the gateway. I hope there is space at the Boondall area for an extra bridge as there doesn't appear to be much space with the new on ramps.

[Mr X]

$1bn for probably 1 extra lane each way.. seems rather steep!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

$1bn for probably 1 extra lane each way.. seems rather steep!!

The Nudgee road bridge might need to be replaced as there might not be enough room underneath along with modifying the on/off ramps and nearby intersections. They can't do a cheap temp job as heavy trucks must use it and frequently. There are heavy trucks coming out of the Nudgee/Geebung/Northgate/Banyo industrial estates. I forget why but there are B doubles that head across it for loading/unloading of something like dirt/gravel etc. Garbage trucks or anyone going to the Nudgee Waste Facility with trailer loads of rubbish. There are also quite alot of boaties/fisherman that also use it. That being said there is a northbound merging lane and if they close off the breakdown lanes aswell they might be able to squeeze 3 lanes in both directions thru. The two bridges at Boondall (entertainment centre exit) would need to be demolished and rebuilt. The two bridges over the Shorncliffe Railway line would create a problem and something similar to what happened with the Gympie Road bridges over the Kedron Brook Creek. The high voltage powerlines would also have to be moved. A few more bridges before and over Depot Road where the old bus depot used to be at Deagon. Sorting out the bridges of the Gateway Motorway/Deagon Deviation including the pedestrian bridge. Sorting out the bridges over Bracken Ridge Road. Then some more bridges over rivers and an overpass to the Deep Water Bend Reserve. Then they can sort out how to merge onto the Bruce Highway.

So quite alot of bridges need to be rebuilt or modified accordingly

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Federal Opposition Leader Tony Abbott pledges $1b to Gateway Motorway upgrade and no extra toll point

[Jonno]

So 1980's

[ozbob]

Twitter

Taras Grescoe ‏@grescoe

Beijing opened 4 new subway lines on Dec 30. Now there's 16. (What's your city been doing lately? Adding off-ramps?) http://bloom.bg/UDbC8W

[Stillwater]

Re Tony Abbott $1 billion pledge for Gateway Motorway .... works are in the crucial seat of Petrie, which the Coalition would want to win in the poll later this year, and the Gateway Motorway feeds directly into the electorate of Longman, which the Coalition wants wonderboy MP Wyatt Roy to retain.  You can see the electorate brochures being worked up now: 'Coalition Pledges $1 Billion to Petrie Roads', no doubt to be countered by bragging by Labor: 'Federal Labor Backs MBRL'.

Maybe Mr Abbott will want to do a favour for (LNP candidate) Mal Brough in the seat of Fisher, and promise duplication of Sunshine Coast Line to Landsborough.  Only trouble is that Fisher is held by Mr Peter Slipper MP, who is in all sorts of political trouble.  A corpse could be the LNP candidate there at the next election and people would vote for the corpse ahead of Mr Slipper.  LNP almost certain of retaining Fisher, so no need for electoral goodies.  Petrie a different kettle of fish.

[red dragin]

$1bn for probably 1 extra lane each way.. seems rather steep!!

The Nudgee road bridge might need to be replaced as there might not be enough room underneath along with modifying the on/off ramps and nearby intersections. They can't do a cheap temp job as heavy trucks must use it and frequently. There are heavy trucks coming out of the Nudgee/Geebung/Northgate/Banyo industrial estates. I forget why but there are B doubles that head across it for loading/unloading of something like dirt/gravel etc. Garbage trucks or anyone going to the Nudgee Waste Facility with trailer loads of rubbish. There are also quite alot of boaties/fisherman that also use it. That being said there is a northbound merging lane and if they close off the breakdown lanes aswell they might be able to squeeze 3 lanes in both directions thru. The two bridges at Boondall (entertainment centre exit) would need to be demolished and rebuilt. The two bridges over the Shorncliffe Railway line would create a problem and something similar to what happened with the Gympie Road bridges over the Kedron Brook Creek. The high voltage powerlines would also have to be moved. A few more bridges before and over Depot Road where the old bus depot used to be at Deagon. Sorting out the bridges of the Gateway Motorway/Deagon Deviation including the pedestrian bridge. Sorting out the bridges over Bracken Ridge Road. Then some more bridges over rivers and an overpass to the Deep Water Bend Reserve. Then they can sort out how to merge onto the Bruce Highway.

So quite alot of bridges need to be rebuilt or modified accordingly

Nudgee rd northbound on ramp to be rebuilt north of existing setup onmthe other side of the school near the radio tower. Not sure how much space southbound for three lanes.

Depot rd bridges are both being widened at the moment, they can do the same with most of the rest i would expect. Bracken ridge rd was widened (I think) many years ago.

HV power lines at Deagon will need to be moved during current upgrade I feel.

The messy job will be the proposed setup beside deagon racecourse, with Sandgate rd northbound to once again be connected directly to the gateway.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Brisbane's Airportlink M7 tunnel hits milestone but traffic still below forecast

[huddo45]

Some interesting letters by CM readers. This one takes the cake I reckon. A million bucks a week to run a branch line, I don't think so.

Colette Posted at 3:59 PM January 09, 2013

    It's interesting to compare two very different pieces of transport infrastructure: The Airport Link Tunnel which is completely funded by users, and the Redcliffe rail line, which is nearly completely funded by taxpayers. The airport link tunnel carries approximately 50,000 vehicles per day. If there is on average 1.5 passengers/vehicle that works out at approximately 75,000 people a day using the tunnel. The Redcliffe rail link will costs taxpayers over 1 billion dollars to construct and a further $52,000,000 every year to subsidise. It is estimated that a mere 6,000 people will use the rail on a daily basis. So the 75,000 people who use the airport tunnel are expected to pay for the full cost of construction and operation of the tunnel, whilst the 6,000 people who may possibly use the Redcliffe rail link get almost everything paid for by the taxpayer. Clearly our governments have their transport priorities completely back the front. The simple fact is that we have to pay road tolls because our governments waste billions of taxpayer dollars every year subsidising our passenger rail network, a network that less than 5 percent of Brisbane's population use.

Comment 44 of 47

[SurfRail]

This Colette character is a repeat lunatic, don't worry about her/it.

[Jonno]

Almost every fact quoted is wrong.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Council plans landmark deal to offload assets and bring forward upgrades

Couriermail --> Brisbane City Council moves to protect ratepayers from possible losses flowing from Legacy Way tunnel 

Brisbanetimes --> Brisbane City Council-QIC deal: the facts

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

16th January 2013

SEQ: Legacy way's 2000 daily express buses - we don't believe it Campbell!

Greetings,

One of the great (now commonplace) failures in transport planning in SEQ, namely Legacy Way. Touted as being able to be used by 2000 express buses daily by the former Lord Mayor of Brisbane Mr Campbell Newman, is the tunnel now going to be off loaded by Brisbane City Council?  What about the considerable federal funding quantum?  It is that to disappear into the financial abyss as well?

Brisbanetimes --> Council plans landmark deal to offload assets and bring forward upgrades

Couriermail --> Brisbane City Council moves to protect ratepayers from possible losses flowing from Legacy Way tunnel 

Building more and more roads is just making congestion and transport worse.  Time to take stock and re-prioritise funding into public transport for a real future.

It is still not too late to connect Legacy Way to the Inner Northern Busway and make it really useful.  Am I dreaming?

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

========================

Media release 4 March 2012 re-released 16 January 2013

SEQ: Legacy way's 2000 daily express buses - we don't believe it Campbell!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has highlighted the promise that 'bus users will be able to benefit with up to 2000 express buses able to use Northern Link each day' (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"RAIL Back On Track at the time doubted claims whether 2000 'express' buses per day was truly genuine (see calculations below) and wondered if it was just 'transit-wash', which is using fringe benefits of public transport to curry up favour for a road project whose actual purpose is to provide more road space and resources for car travel (2)."

Calculations

2000 express buses
18 hours per day 2000 buses / 18 hours of service = 111 buses per hour on average
60 minutes in one hour = 3600 seconds in one hour
3600 seconds in one hour / 111 buses per hour
is a bus every 32 seconds
(or assuming all the trips are return trips, a bus a minute).

"One of the most audacious publicly obvious failings in Western Suburbs transport planning was boasting about making a $300 million dollar 'saving' on Legacy Way but then, in the same release, claiming that $50 million dollars could not be found for a bus interconnection to the busway to allow council's own buses to use the Legacy Way (Northern Link Tunnel!"

"The idea of public transport being able to use Legacy way appears to have been set up to fail and nothing but 'transit-wash'.

"Brisbane City Council is continuing its bizarre record of removing bus lanes from Brisbane's most unreliable road - Coronation Drive, so that its own bus services carrying its own ratepayers are all slowed down and bus operating costs for its own fleet are increased."

"Add to that multi million dollar high-visibility Maroon CityGliders that may symbolise improvement to public transport but on further analysis actually reveals that they add zero new mobility and duplicate existing high frequency services."

"RAIL Back On Track again calls for the total abandonment of 'balanced transport' policies and a shift to 'rebalanced transport' based around walking, cycling, buses, ferries and rail."

References

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4459.msg35456#msg35456

2. Greenwashing, Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Kingsford Smith Drive set to become tree-lined boulevard

[colinw]

Brisbane Times -> Legacy Way proposal leaves $500m funding in doubt

[ozbob]

Brisbane Times -> Legacy Way proposal leaves $500m funding in doubt

^ No surprise ....  lol

[ozbob]

The Feds should dig in and insist that Legacy Way is connected to the INB.

It is our money too ...

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Legacy Way deal may be good, but who knows

THE financial Dance of the Seven Veils surrounding the effective sale of major transport assets to the QIC, and the subsequent use of monies freed up to fund the long-promised upgrade to Kingsford Smith Drive, is a bit of a "don't you worry about that" transaction at this point ...

Indeed Mr Syvret ...

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Kingsford Smith Drive upgrade hinges on QIC deal

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

17th January 2013

Re: SEQ: Legacy way's 2000 daily express buses - we don't believe it Campbell!

Greetings,

The Federal Government must demand that funding for the 'smoke and mirrors' financial deal be contingent on enabling Legacy Way for the ' 2000 express buses daily ' as led by the former Mayor of Brisbane, Mr Campbell Newman.  Fair deal?

Legacy Way proposal leaves $500m funding in doubt
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/legacy-way-proposal-leaves-500m-funding-in-doubt-20130116-2ctls.html#ixzz2I9nwem5e

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

16th January 2013

SEQ: Legacy way's 2000 daily express buses - we don't believe it Campbell!

Greetings,

One of the great (now commonplace) failures in transport planning in SEQ, namely Legacy Way. Touted as being able to be used by 2000 express buses daily by the former Lord Mayor of Brisbane Mr Campbell Newman, is the tunnel now going to be off loaded by Brisbane City Council?  What about the considerable federal funding quantum?  It is that to disappear into the financial abyss as well?

Brisbanetimes --> Council plans landmark deal to offload assets and bring forward upgrades

Couriermail --> Brisbane City Council moves to protect ratepayers from possible losses flowing from Legacy Way tunnel 

Building more and more roads is just making congestion and transport worse.  Time to take stock and re-prioritise funding into public transport for a real future.

It is still not too late to connect Legacy Way to the Inner Northern Busway and make it really useful.  Am I dreaming?

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

========================

Media release 4 March 2012 re-released 16 January 2013

SEQ: Legacy way's 2000 daily express buses - we don't believe it Campbell!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has highlighted the promise that 'bus users will be able to benefit with up to 2000 express buses able to use Northern Link each day' (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"RAIL Back On Track at the time doubted claims whether 2000 'express' buses per day was truly genuine (see calculations below) and wondered if it was just 'transit-wash', which is using fringe benefits of public transport to curry up favour for a road project whose actual purpose is to provide more road space and resources for car travel (2)."

Calculations

2000 express buses
18 hours per day 2000 buses / 18 hours of service = 111 buses per hour on average
60 minutes in one hour = 3600 seconds in one hour
3600 seconds in one hour / 111 buses per hour
is a bus every 32 seconds
(or assuming all the trips are return trips, a bus a minute).

"One of the most audacious publicly obvious failings in Western Suburbs transport planning was boasting about making a $300 million dollar 'saving' on Legacy Way but then, in the same release, claiming that $50 million dollars could not be found for a bus interconnection to the busway to allow council's own buses to use the Legacy Way (Northern Link Tunnel!"

"The idea of public transport being able to use Legacy way appears to have been set up to fail and nothing but 'transit-wash'.

"Brisbane City Council is continuing its bizarre record of removing bus lanes from Brisbane's most unreliable road - Coronation Drive, so that its own bus services carrying its own ratepayers are all slowed down and bus operating costs for its own fleet are increased."

"Add to that multi million dollar high-visibility Maroon CityGliders that may symbolise improvement to public transport but on further analysis actually reveals that they add zero new mobility and duplicate existing high frequency services."

"RAIL Back On Track again calls for the total abandonment of 'balanced transport' policies and a shift to 'rebalanced transport' based around walking, cycling, buses, ferries and rail."

References

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4459.msg35456#msg35456

2. Greenwashing, Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org