Roads - articles and discussion

[red dragin]

Go Via owns or manages the entire toll network in Brisbane now.

https://www.govia.com.au/documents/21025/22674/go+via+network+map/db9c999c-72ab-40ae-80f2-a7e8879813b9
+ this release
https://www.govia.com.au/web/ssp/-/transurban-queensland-acquires-airportlinkm7?inheritRedirect=true&redirect=%2F

[#Metro]

^ It's a distance based fare, not a transfer.  If you don't drive through one, you don't get charged for it.

We could argue about this, but more important is that if you are tolled once, your appetite for being tolled *TWICE* pretty much immediately after being tolled once goes down pretty quick.

If the companies were smart, there should be a discount for using both tunnels.

[SurfRail]

Evidence?

People go through multiple tolls routinely all over the world.  e-tags make this concern basically irrelevant.

[verbatim9]

More freight should be moved to rail. And maybe a freight interchange point at the Southern of Mid end of the Gold and Sunshine Coasts to take all the trucks off the freeways. (Plus any new freeways South of Brisbane be user pays) Same goes with the duplication of the Sunshine motor way and widening of the Bruce Hwy to Caloundra turn off to 6 lanes. "Toll only" so there are funds for rail duplication and extension to Caloundra and Maroochydore and improvements and extensions to Coolangatta on the Gold Coast line.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I don't deny the presence of other factors. However, they do not explain why the tunnel traffic suddenly fell once the free period was over.

The introduction of pricing *does* explain this fall.

Yes but you have to include those other factors. Cost vs benefit. As I pointed out if the time savings are marginal Kedron-Bowen Hills (It duplicates the bloody road above) in the afternoon on a week day why fork out $3.50 at the time for being 30-60 seconds faster over 6-7km. Now its $5.30 or something last time I looked at the toll display on Gympie Road. Compare it to the Logan Motorway where $4.30?? IIRC gets you from the Ipswich Motorway all the way to the Pacific Motorway 30km away. That is a successful toll road which is currently exceeding its capacity and will soon be upgraded under user pays.

If you want to compare Japans toll roads which are known for being really expensive (the successful toll roads over there offset the poorly used toll roads) to our toll roads you'll be surprised. They use a distance toll which is about 30 cents per km from memory. Applied here would work out to be about $2 for the airport link (we pay $5.30). $1.40 for the Clem 7 (we pay about $4.80). $3.40 for both tunnels (we pay $10). The Logan Motorway from the Ipswich Motorway to the Pacific Motorway works out to be $9.00 (we pay $4.30).

[#Metro]

Evidence?

People go through multiple tolls routinely all over the world.  e-tags make this concern basically irrelevant.

Sure. Literature material from the 2015 Nobel Prize Laureate in Economics, Jean Tirole.
https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/2014/tirole-lecture.pdf

To understand royalty stacking, which was brilliantly formalized in 1838 by Antoine
Augustin Cournot (1838) and more recently by Carl Shapiro (2001), it may be helpful to use
an analogy (depicted in Figure 6) and return to medieval Europe, whose river transit was
hampered by a multiplicity of tolls; for instance, there were 64 tolls on the Rhine River
in the 14th century.[23]

Each toll collector set his toll to maximize his revenue, oblivious of what this meant not
only for the users but also for other toll collectors. Europe had to wait until the
Congress of Vienna in 1815 and subsequent legislations to see the removal of
toll-stacking. [24] High technologies are currently witnessing an evolution toward more
affordable prices, similar to that for river traffic in the 19th century. New guidelines
have been set, so as to encourage the co-marketing of intellectual property through patent
pools.

See figure 6 and figure 7 in the attachment.

Probably explains why now one company owns both tunnels. Anyway, this is splitting hairs. The main point I am making is made much better by this graph:

Yes but you have to include those other factors.

HTG, check out the "toll free" period, complete natural experiment: 



http://www.frontier-economics.com.au/publications/expecting-unexpected/
Source: The Audit Office of New South Wales (2006) "Performance audit: the Cross City Tunnel Project", p.32

"And price can have a significant impact on patronage. When the Cross City Tunnel in Sydney opened in June, 2005, the actual traffic was approximately one third of that forecast (see Figure 1). As a result the Tunnel Company provided 5 weeks toll-free which lead to an immediate jump in patronage. However, when the toll was re-introduced there was an immediate drop in traffic.

In order to stimulate further demand, the toll was then reduced by half; this had a much smaller effect on traffic numbers that the removal on tolls altogether."

Conclusion: Even a small toll, say $1 or even less than that, would see an enormous drop in car traffic along congested roads.

[SurfRail]

So you had to go back to before the Renaissance to find a pertinent and barely relevant example then.

I don't think pricing on the Rhine was recovered through electronic meand or that changes were widely promulgated.

[#Metro]

So you had to go back to before the Renaissance to find a pertinent and barely relevant example then.

Not an argument. This guy got the Nobel for his work. And it is beside my main point, which is, tolls will reduce congestion massively.

[nathandavid88]

You make a good point about sequential tolling on a continuous network. Paying twice for two sections on a continuous and unbroken

car journey is essentially a transfer penalty. The smart thing to do would be for one company to buy out the other company and charge

a single toll. Failing this, a discount or uniform pricing between the two toll tunnel operators.

The Clem 7 and Airportlink are already owned by the one company – Transurban. They own all the toll roads in South East Queensland, I'm pretty certain.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yes but you have to include those other factors.

HTG, check out the "toll free" period, complete natural experiment: 



http://www.frontier-economics.com.au/publications/expecting-unexpected/
Source: The Audit Office of New South Wales (2006) "Performance audit: the Cross City Tunnel Project", p.32

"And price can have a significant impact on patronage. When the Cross City Tunnel in Sydney opened in June, 2005, the actual traffic was approximately one third of that forecast (see Figure 1). As a result the Tunnel Company provided 5 weeks toll-free which lead to an immediate jump in patronage. However, when the toll was re-introduced there was an immediate drop in traffic.

In order to stimulate further demand, the toll was then reduced by half; this had a much smaller effect on traffic numbers that the removal on tolls altogether."

Conclusion: Even a small toll, say $1 or even less than that, would see an enormous drop in car traffic along congested roads.

No, you can't make one toll road doing something as a precedent for all toll roads. They are all different. For instance comparing the Logan Motorway toll road to the Airport Link toll road. You must include these other factors into their success or lack of success. In fact patronage dropped during the free trial period of the Airport Link due to congestion at Bowen Hills/the ICB entrance and the Bowen Bridge Road exit portal.



The Airport link duplicates Gympie Road directly above it. You have to have major congestion on Gympie Road to get people to pay $5.30 to use it. And as soon as you exit at Kedron its straight into grid lock. If the tunnel was longer say if fed into the Gateway Motorway at Bald Hills/Bracken Ridge that would change things up as you avoid the congestion on the worst parts of Gympie Road. But if you set the toll too high it will fail.

Just look at the Logan Motorway. Its a toll road and demand is exceeding its capacity. Why don't you want to talk about that.

[#Metro]

I can't make people see something they don't want to see, even if it is obvious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_demand

In economics, the law of demand states that, all else being equal, as the price of a product increases (↑), quantity demanded falls (↓); likewise, as the price of a product decreases (↓), quantity demanded increases (↑). In simple terms, the law of demand describes an inverse relationship, and an elasticity, between price and quantity of demand.

If you charge a price on congested roads (other variants could be HOT lanes etc), then the traffic will be less.

Also, pretty amazing that there are calls for more lanes/new motorway when the old one actually had a general traffic lane added by removing the T2 lanes that used to be on it.

[SurfRail]

So you had to go back to before the Renaissance to find a pertinent and barely relevant example then.

Not an argument. This guy got the Nobel for his work. And it is beside my main point, which is, tolls will reduce congestion massively.

Barack Obama got a Nobel for bringing peace to the Middle East.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

[petey3801]

Simple terms:
If people see value for money, they will spend the money. Translating this to toll roads:
Logan Motorway has two toll points to travel the road from Ipswich motorway to the Pacific motorway, however this road is used by many people due to them seeing good value for money. The Logan motorway offers real time savings (quite significant savings too) across the distance as opposed to traveling the suburban streets to travel the distance.
Airport Link/Clem7 has 2 toll points if using both tunnels. However, these tunnels do not offer significant time savings outside of peak hour, due to the tunnels basically mirroring surface roads (same can be said for Legacy way). People don't see value for money, so don't use it (outside of peak especially).

It costs (roughly) $5 to travel the length of the Logan motorway.
It costs (roughly) $11 to travel the length of the M7 (Airport Link and Clem7 together).

Logan motorway is successful, as it offers very good value for money. M7 is unsuccessful as it offers very poor value for money.

[ozbob]

Queensland Times --> State government commits $111m to Darra and Rocklea upgrade

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Pre-dawn tradies create Brisbane's new four-hour 'rush hour'

... Mr Turner said the RACQ agreed these projects should be done first between Brisbane and the Gold Coast.

    the merge of the Gateway Motorway with the Pacific Motorway near Rochedale;
    the section between Mudgereeba and Varsity Lakes; and
    the Cross River Rail linking the north and the south sides of Brisbane ...

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/predawn-tradies-create-brisbanes-new-fourhour-rush-hour-20160218-gmxynk.html

[James]

Hate to say it, but the only way to truly solve the problem is going to by MSR/HSR foam plans like the ones currently being discussed in the Wacky Corner. You aren't going to drag people out of their cars unless there is a serious incentive to do so.

People are leaving so early because it is what they need in order to have a fast trip in, and it'll only get worse. It is getting to the point where this behaviour of people living on the GC but commuting to Brisbane needs to be deterred.

[#Metro]

The Gold Coast Line should be running at least 200 km/hour, and a train every 15 minutes.
That is not unreasonable at all.

Here is a look at the data. Looks like it will be a busy motorway all day. No amount of upgrading is going to make the motorists travel faster than about 100 km/hour. So there is a natural limit on the speed savings that one can get from a motorway. Same with lane capacity - it is too low. Train has about 10x the capacity of a road lane, and a smaller land footprint also.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

19th February 2016

Pacific Motorway: Road or All Day Car Park?



Greetings,

An interesting story in the Brisbane Times today about traffic growth outside peak hour on the Pacific Motorway.

Our graphing of the DTMR data in the story shows it is indeed becoming busier. Quite a lot of the growth has occurred after morning peak hour and around midday.

If this trend continues, traffic congestion could block the Pacific Motorway at most times of the day, turning it into a car park. It really sounds like we are headed for an LA-style scenario.

There are good reasons to upgrade and improve the rail network, not only to the Gold Coast but also generally.

Comparable rail lines in Perth, Western Australia have fast trains every 15 minutes all day which link up with high frequency feeder bus services. Perth has a similar density to Brisbane, and a lower population. They also run the same models of buses and trains to the ones used in Queensland, so it is somewhat of a natural experiment.

The Queensland Government has had plenty of time to upgrade the Gold Coast line so that trains are able to run every 15 minutes in both directions. They haven't done it. Cross River Rail has been set back significantly, according to the original timetable construction should have been underway this year, and so its not a surprise that people are taking the car. Sunshine Coast line also needs upgrading Beerburrum to Landsborough North - this was to occur in 2009! Simply adding more lanes to the Bruce Highway is not going to really sort that congestion either.

Sorry to upset people, but we think further upgrades to the Pacific Motorway are a waste of time and won't solve the problem in the end.

More upgrades will just encourage more cars to use the motorway. Upgrading ramps and widening interchanges only means that cars can get on the motorway faster and in higher volumes, causing congestion and gridlock faster.

There are other good reasons not to upgrade the motorway. Upgraded trains can travel much faster.

On motorways the maximum speed limit is around 100 km/hour. No amount of Pacific Motorway upgrades are going to change that. Cars just cannot travel faster than 100 km/hour safely.

In contrast, trains can be upgraded to run much faster than cars. Internationally, regional trains can run at speeds between 100 km/hour and 250 km/hour or higher between cities. You are never going to get that kind of speed with cars and a motorway. The capacity of a single train track is also about 10 times that of a motorway lane.

We think the proper solution is Cross River Rail, upgrades to the Gold Coast line so that trains can run every 15 minutes all day in both directions, and longer term, investigate changes to the line that would permit regional express services to run at speeds at or above 200km/hour.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Reference:

1. Pre-dawn tradies create Brisbane's new four-hour 'rush hour'
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/predawn-tradies-create-brisbanes-new-fourhour-rush-hour-20160218-gmxynk.html

[red dragin]

I've had to drive in the last three mornings from North Lakes to the CBD, due to the wife spraining her ankle badly and needing to be driven to work.

It's taken between 1hr 25 and 1hr 40 to make the trip that normally takes 45 minutes during the quiet Christmas period.

I don't know how people do it each and every day, its cheaper than the train but the time and stress of dealing with idiot drivers 

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Brisbane news: Motorists still stuck in gridlock despite new infrastructure

[ozbob]

Sunday Mail--> Graham Quirk's $650m Kingsford Smith Drive upgrade gets lukewarm response from voters

PLANS to spend $650 million to upgrade Kingsford Smith Drive have divided Brisbane, with almost half of people wanting the cash spent on other projects.

Exclusive polling for The Sunday Mail shows just over a third of people want the project to go ahead, 45 per cent want the money spent on other projects, while the rest are uncommitted ...

[ozbob]

JOINT STATEMENT
Premier and Minister for the Arts
The Honourable Annastacia Palaszczuk

Deputy Premier, Minister for Infrastructure, Local Government and Planning and Minister for Trade and Investment
The Honourable Jackie Trad

Minister for Main Roads, Road Safety and Ports and Minister for Energy, Biofuels and Water Supply
The Honourable Mark Bailey

Palaszczuk Government commits $200M towards Ipswich Motorway upgrade

The Palaszczuk Government today committed $200 million towards the first stage of upgrading the Ipswich Motorway, between Rocklea and Darra, to bust congestion, improve road freight and support 470 jobs during construction.

Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk, Deputy Premier Jackie Trad and Minister for Main Roads, Road Safety and Ports Mark Bailey announced the funding injection, and called on the Turnbull Government to ensure this crucial project is delivered.

"This $200 million announced today is an enormous step in seeing this project move forward, and means relief is in sight for Motorway users who currently face mass congestion in peak times," Ms Palaszczuk said.

"However, in order for this $400 million project to become a reality, we need the Turnbull Government to come to the table and meet our commitment 50:50. They should make that commitment and put their allocation back in to this project tomorrow.

"Throughout Queensland, the Federal Government usually funds major road projects on an 80:20 basis with the State Government – including projects on the Warrego, Toowoomba, the Bruce, the Gateway and Cape York.

"We know upgrading the Ipswich Motorway is crucial to ease congestion for both motorists and road freight, and so we've significantly increased our share of the funding to 50 per cent, from $80 million to $200 million.

"We've got our money on the table, ready to go – now we just need the Federal Government to step up and match our commitment."

Deputy Premier and Minister for Infrastructure, Local Government and Planning Jackie Trad said she was disappointed the Coalition Government had removed funding previously allocated to the upgrade.

"Last year the Coalition Government retracted its funding for the Rocklea to Darra upgrade, wiping $279 million from the balance sheet for Queensland," Ms Trad said.

"They also took the extraordinary step of downgrading the status of the Motorway by removing it from the National Land Transport Network.

"Through the Palaszczuk Government's State Infrastructure Plan, which I will announce in the coming week, we are committed to planning, funding and delivering the projects which we know Queenslanders need right now and for our future.

"This $200 million in funding announced today signals our most recent commitment to delivering jobs and critical infrastructure for Queensland, and builds on our Government's $10.1 billion capital program this financial year.

"Fixing congestion on the Ipswich Motorway is one of our key infrastructure priorities for South East Queensland, and we will stop at nothing to make sure the Federal Government knows this.

"Infrastructure Australia recently identified this project as a high priority, and with our funding ready to go, all we need now is for the Turnbull Government to contribute their fair share."

Minister Bailey said the $400 million project was essential to improve the capacity of the Ipswich Motorway, by upgrading lanes between Granard and Oxley Roads from four to six.

"The Ipswich Motorway is currently a major source of frustration for more than 85,000 motorists who use this section of the motorway daily, including up to 12,000 trucks," Mr Bailey said.

"Two additional lanes between Granard and Oxley Roads will not only significantly improve the capacity and reliability of the Motorway, but it will also ease access to the major industrial precinct of Rocklea and the Acacia Ridge Inter-model Transport Centre to the Port of Brisbane and Trade Coast.

"This project will provide improved travel time, reliability and a safer, faster journey for people travelling to and from South East Queensland's rapidly expanding western suburbs.

"We want to get this project up and running. It's now up to the Turnbull Government to show they are supporting Queenslanders and the Queensland economy."

ENDS

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Queensland offers $200 million to break Ipswich Motorway congestion

[ozbob]

Queensland Times --> Rocklea to Darra upgrade of Ipswich Mwy might have wheels

[achiruel]

What exactly do these people think will happen when the traffic reaches the non motorway part of Ipswich Rd? Just vanish? 

[techblitz]

granard rd and its heavy vehicle traffic entering/exiting the motorway is a major factor.....i live near the granard rd exit & get a birds eye view of the mess entering/exiting the motorway.....
Peak traffic flows relatively well between the gabba and granard(rocklea)..barring any major accident of course.. will progressively get worse...but the current major problems are definitely after granard rd & darra....

[red dragin]

They are quietly building a heavy vehicle route from Ipswich Motorway end to the Gateway Motorway via Macgregor.

If there was a clear project announced the locals would spit, but an upgrade here, traffic light bypass there, and most won't notice.

[SurfRail]

This is arguably one corridor where a tunnel wouldn't hurt.  Even removing the Logan and Gateway tolls would only do so much given the land uses along the Ipswich Motorway and all around Oxley, Rocklea, Salisbury, Acacia Ridge etc.

Plenty of other priorities though including but not limited to improving the metropolitan rail freight system on the southside so it doesn't interfere with passenger traffic (except for trains coming from north of Brisbane).

[aldonius]

OK, so to six lanes (presumably three each way). It seems to me that it would help most if the third lane westbound was a continuation of the Granard Rd on-ramp.

[ozbob]

Jam packed like sardines coming down the Bruce Hwy thru North Lakes #bnetraffic #chopperview 🚁 #PackYourPatience pic.twitter.com/WhEmfmnvC3

— Dave Andrews (@chopperdaveqld) March 13, 2016

[kram0]

Yet more just cutting by this incompetent government. Short term gain for long term pain...

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/queensland-government-axed-bypass-to-cut-cost-of-ipswich-motorway-widening-20160310-gng0j3.html

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> Tarnya Smith, Matthew Bourke, residents call on State Government to fix Sumners Rd bottleneck

The fight for a solution to the Sumners Rd overpass has reached boiling point with a petition demanding an ­upgrade to the bottleneck ­tabled in State Parliament last week.

More than 3000 residents signed the petition started by Mount Ommaney LNP MP Tarnya Smith.

She said Deputy Premier Jackie Trad has snubbed Brisbane's western suburbs by not including the project in her infrastructure plan.

"The existing single-lane Sumners Rd overpass is ­simply not up to scratch, it is a traffic bottleneck and I know local commuters are fed up," Ms Smith said.

"Thousands of vehicles use the overpass every day and as the western suburbs continue to grow, the situation will worsen."

Centenary Chamber president Steve Pollard said the overpass served both the residents of Mount Ommaney and Inala.

"There is no reason we can't have a bipartisan solution for the residents' problem," Mr Pollard said.

A Transport and Main Roads (TMR) spokesman said a planning study in 2010-11 found duplication of the overpass would reduce congestion and delays.

"The current estimated cost to duplicate the overpass is $65 million," he said.

"There is currently no ­allocated funding for this project."

Riverhills woman Inga Ng said she refused to use the overpass to take her children to sport or to work.

"A trip that would take you five minutes takes 20," she said. "My biggest gripe is that when the Centenary Highway got upgraded they didn't upgrade the bridge."

Darra businessman Peter Smith believes some of the congestion may be solved by correcting traffic light timing. "Something more obvious may be to adjust the traffic lights so they act concurrently, then ­traffic will at least proceed to the roundabout before stopping," he said.

Councillor Matthew Bourke (Jamboree ward) said many Centenary residents prefer to drive to Oxley or Darra train stations rather than take buses.

He said the congestion on the Sumners Rd overpass was part of the problem.

"Buses get caught in the traffic congestion. Inaction by the State Government to fix that bottleneck is leading to this issue," he said.

"I ask the State Government to get on with the job and fix this important crossing."

[James]

Decent bus services in the area would be a start.

The main reason people drive to Oxley and Darra stations is not just because of congestion, it is because the existing bus services into the CBD are slow and the feeder buses to Darra are apparently afraid of Vampires - they hide the moment the sun goes down!

[ozbob]

Yes, classic poly-waffle ...

The bridge is a choke point.  Fixing it will help buses, but the buses have to be there as well.

[#Metro]

Cheaper Fares! .... For buses that don't exist in your area!

New Bridge! ... Helps buses that don't exist in your area!

Upgraded Road! ... Helps buses that we didn't fund and aren't going to!

New Multi Lane Tunnel for the bus!  All the cars will be faster and cars will benefit hugely. NB: 1 bus per day in the tunnel.

HELP THE BUS!! More Roads and Cars!!

</sarcasm>

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> 'Obviously it's a problem': RACQ on Bruce Hwy

... Mr Roth also suggested duplicating the rail corridor between Beerburrum and Nambour could help ease traffic on the highway, with travellers given more options to get between the city and the northern coast.

"The Bruce Highway doesn't need an accident, it clogs up regularly on long weekends in particular," Mr Roth said.

"Whenever there is a bit of a holiday rush you see congestion.

"It does work relatively well most days  but all it takes is one breakdown, one crash or one little problem and it grinds to a halt." ...

[Jonno]

The spending to reduce congestion oh sorry create congestion just continues! 

[ozbob]

Sunshine Coast Daily --> Long wait to boost the Bruce Hwy

[ozbob]

Twitter

Penny Dahl ‏@Pennycopter 12s

How 'bout that Centenary Hwy? #pooinashoe #bnetraffic

[#Metro]

It is just perfect for a Class A ROW. Busway or Rail.