STOP PRESS: Go card changes

[ozbob]

This might be a way forward. It is simple.
Peak hour travel is not so elastic, because the alternative is to drive on congested roads.

Yep.  As I said earlier somewhere the present system for the average user is becoming almost incomprehensible.  I have answered a lot of queries, radio, telephone and email since Friday on trying to get folks to understand what two journeys means.  Many think (wrt to the seniors/pensioner capping) that they get a bus a to b, bus b to c, trips there after from c to the rest of the alphabet are free.  They do not understand the concept of a journey, a trip, the fact that sometimes a journey may well be trip or a series of trips.  So education needed.

Now that some cards have journey capping some don't another layer of potential confusion.  Simple to sort as we suggested above. Ramp off peak to 30%, the traditional level.  Put in place a daily cap, best I think is the highest zone journey x 2 +30% and drop the 50% after 10 journeys.  Every one the same, concession users just pay the half fares as appropriate.

For many people though they believe it is cheaper for them to drive (time plus the actual costs).  As fares climb this will force some back on the roads, having some real carrots for pt and frequency increases will attract and retain.  If you miss a bus/rail connection and next train is a long way away, the average person doesn't do it again.

[#Metro]

How necessary is the daily cap if the off-peak PT discount is increased to 30%?
Is it really required if the discount is increased?

agree with abolishing the 10+ trip discount. Not very useful.

[Golliwog]

I'm with Derwans idea. I think the goal should be to encourage people to use PT for more than just to and from work in the morning and evening. I still think that an off-peak discount would be worth it as well, although if you're already offering a 50% discount for doing more than 2 trips then it wouldn't need to be as substancial.

Another option similar to the after 2 trips a day the rest get 50% off would be to make it a retroactive discount, so if you make say 3 trips or more in a day then you get a refund of say 25% of the price of all the trips you did that day. Just suggesting arbitrary %'s here but you get the idea.

[ozbob]

How necessary is the daily cap if the off-peak PT discount is increased to 30%?
Is it really required if the discount is increased?

From my own individual perspective no.  But taking a wider view probably is needed politically.  The opposition are obviously keen to support a traditional fare approach and that is what resonates with the masses.  If there was real action to support the rhetoric accompanying the fare increases etc. folks would be more accomodating.   The seniors/pensioners did a good job lobbying (we supported of course), and it is actually a very major turnaround the journey capping.  It is not quite what some folks think it is but those seniors who do genuinely do some days of multiple journeys it will be valuable.  A mould is cast though with the journey capping, and it is logical that all concession fare entitlements get the same capping.  I am certain that this journey capping will be extended to all go card users sooner than later, even if only in the election context (providing the whole fare structure is not changed again).

[ozbob]

I would also expect the university students to get mobile on this as well.  Could be an interesting week coming up ..

:bi

[paulg]

I've proposed something like this in the past too - but got shot down in flames.

• After 2 journeys, 50% discount for the rest of the day.
• After a total of 10 (or preferable 6 or 8 ) journeys in the week, 50% discount for the rest of the week.
• If you've already done 10 trips in the week and you do more than 2 trips in a day, the rest of the trips for that day will get both discounts (i.e. a 75% discount overall)

I like this idea, although I think the double discount is a bit generous. I think it should be that all trips after the first two each day are discounted by 50%, and all trips after the first ten each week are discounted by 50%. Some people will get sort of a double discount anyway, since some of the ten trips for the weekly calculation could have been discounted under the daily discount rule.

Cheers

[somebody]

HOWEVER, I do believe that the 50% discount should be triggered sooner than 10 journeys.  At the moment it gives no incentive to catch PT every day.  If it triggered after 6 or even 8 journeys, it'd reduce the number of people who decide to drive a couple of days a week.

While I agree with most of your other points, I do not see the value in reducing the number of journeys before frequent user kicks in.  Your target market is miniscule, and doing so would reduce your fare box revenue.  I do *NOT* think it is appropriate to give discounts to peak hour commuters.  To achieve the same fare box revenue, you would need to raise the base price, which would tend to deter occasional users.  Just this week someone who I worked with cited high fares as a reason not to use PT, and his commute was Stafford-Indooroopilly.  Perhaps he is using paper tickets, but even so I do not believe it, although it could be true in a Prius (which isn't what he drives) if you ignore wear & tear on the car.

The other thing is with your proposed discount after 2 trips/day AND 10 trips/week, compounding, do the discounted trips count towards the 10/week?  That is giving far too much incentive to people from the Gold Coast to catch a bus between 2 stops along Adelaide St on Mon-Wed especially.

As I said earlier somewhere the present system for the average user is becoming almost incomprehensible.  I have answered a lot of queries, radio, telephone and email since Friday on trying to get folks to understand what two journeys means.

Is it that bad?  It's just after 10 journeys, with continuations not counting.  However, it is the capping which has caused these questions to be asked!  Doh!

[ozbob]

The capping (journey).  Many folks are not clear on what a journey is, they confuse it with a trip.  Although a trip can be a journey of course ..

It is what it is, after two journeys then free there after. 

[Gazza]

Then just give a really quick definition for educating the public...

A journey is comprised of up to 4 trips on buses, trains and ferries (modes) in a row over a maximum 5 hour period, with no more than a 1 hour break between each trip.
A trip on a particular mode begins when you touch on, and ends when you touch off.
So, If more than 1 hour elapses after your last touch off, the journey is counted as finished, and your next touch on will initiate a new journey.

So have we given up on pushing for conventional periodicals to be available then?  
I really do think pay as you use discounts are much better deal for everyone.

Comparisons to the now grossly inflated weekly paper costs are very misleading.

Thought I'd quicky address this because I forgot to.
The gist of what I was saying is that the arguments that by the opposition that people will be "worse off" under go card due to the elimination of the monthlies the are currently buying is a bit of a dramatisation because the price differential for even our longest commuters, doing a return trip CBD to GC, 7 days a week  will only be paying a mere 1.45% more per month.
And if they are that worried about paying more, they can just not touch off 

[#Metro]

Keep it simple:

Abolish 10 trip + discount.
Replace with increased off peak discount relative to the peak hour fare

Then increase service frequency.

The End.

[somebody]

Keep it simple:

Abolish 10 trip + discount.

I wouldn't like that.

[ozbob]

Obviously I have been giving a clear description.  Many folks are quite confused on the trip journey thing.

We have mentioned smart card periodical options coupled with further enhancements as an option. Just because you don't think that is not the way to go doesn't mean others don't.  Having said that I have always supported strongly the capping approach but can live with the discounts, but it has now given rise to the journey capping which could have been avoided if a daily cap algorithm had been in place.  But what I think is not the issue. The fact is it is now clear what direction is being followed.  The Minister again confirmed on Friday that no future fare enhancements are in train.  But we know that can change tomorrow, and corporate cards are being sorted out.  TransLink have indicated the Seniors Card / Go Card combo is near completion as well. The combo was promised to  be ready last January, but better late than never.

It is clear which way the opposition is leaning.  I think we will yet see changes to the fare structure.

[#Metro]

trip = ride
journey = the series of rides that you take to get to your final destination

People want to make journeys, but public transport only offers rides.

[#Metro]

TransLink have indicated the Seniors Card / Go Card combo is near completion as well. The combo was promised to  be ready last January, but better late than never.

I wonder if they can have a school id/child and a uni or tafe student/id combo???

[ozbob]

I wonder if they can have a school id/child and a uni or tafe student/id combo???

I am sure they can, but I am not aware of plans to do that here.  It might be the constant churn with the cards might make it too expensive?

There was a plan to do a trial with Griffith Uni a while back but I don't think it actually happened.  It has taken a while to sort out the Seniors combo, but that looks close. So the technology etc. must be sorted.  But do all the ID cards work the same way?  Don't know, that might complicate it a bit as well.

TransLink and the Department of
Communities are working on an
exciting new initiative making the
go card even easier for seniors.
The co-located Seniors Card
go card offers seniors the safety,
convenience and savings of a
go card on their Seniors Card.

http://www.translink.com.au/resources/ticketing/2011_fares.pdf

[Gazza]

The more I think about this, the "less bad" the current fare structure actually seems TBH.

You get discounted fares on weekends and evenings already, and people who decide to make additional trips on weekends and on evenings during the week will get these at 50% off in effect, but just not at the time of travel.

Consider this,
you're a regular commuter so you're going to be making 10 trips per week regardless. Now, lets say on Thursday night you go out for dinner later in the evening. Those two trips will be off peak but with no 50% off discount.
But, as a result, this means your 10 trips have been moved forward by one day, so your Friday, full fare work commutes will be half price. As far as I'm concerned this is a reward for additional use.
If they go use it on the weekend for an outing, then they'll be getting the off peak fare, and be getting it at 50% off. Another pretty good deal actually.

So what is fundamentally wrong with this model?

Actually, agreed with Somebody that you don't need to give regular peak hour work commuters a discount. Why do they deserve it? What travel pattern will it encourage? PT work commuters are going to use it 5 days a week regardless, and as Somebody said you'd just be needless reducing farebox recovery without increasing patronage.

This is another philosophy of mine. All PT spending decisions need to be made on the basis of what is better at increasing patronage, not because it makes a certain user group feel good. As such, any discount offers need to be looked at in terms of Wether it will get a real number of extra people on board. If all the discount does is save money for people who would've ridden anyway, then that is a real waste of money and a misdirected policy.

We have mentioned smart card periodical options coupled with further enhancements as an option. Just because you don't think that is not the way to go doesn't mean others don't.  Having said that I have always supported strongly the capping approach but can live with the discounts, but it has now given rise to the journey capping which could have been avoided if a daily cap algorithm had been in place.

It's just that, the concept of periodicals on a smart card seems a bit "clunky", and has only really been borne out of the desire for transit agencies to avoid getting rid of them when they have switched from paper to plastic.

The argument that because Melbourne or wherever has it, so therefore we should, isn't a good enough reason IMO unless we can say why this is the best way to give discounts.
I mean in Germany they have an entirely different approach....The yearly BahnCard.
Basically you can get a BahnCard 25, BahnCard 50 or a BahnCard 100. The BC25 is 57 EUR but gives you 25% off fares. The BC50 is 230 EUR and gives you 50% off fares. The BC100 is 3800 EUR but gives you 100% (free) travel. Why not consider this approach?
It's just an example of course, and I'm not saying its what we need, but it shows that there are several ways of rewarding frequent users.

Maybe the boffins at Translink could sit down, and really nut out what would best strike a balance between encouraging use without blowing a hole in revenue.

The main selling point of smart card systems is that they "calculate the best fare for you", but if you are having to go through a process of loading and constantly renewing an additional periodical onto your card to get the real discounts then it's not as good as it could be.

As I've said, periodical tickets are biased towards:
-People on higher incomes who can afford to pay large amounts of money upfront for the pass.
-People who travel in set patterns and on consistent days rather than those who may travel a lot, but not always in the same direction/ days.

Whereas, maintaining set discount levels anyone can qualify for is much more equitable, and creates a positive situation where the heaviest users are the biggest savers.
5.88

[ozbob]

So what is fundamentally wrong with this model?

Nothing from your perspective, but it assumes you have done 10 journeys during the week.  In fact many don't do that, which is why the journey capping for seniors/pensioners was brought in.  

I too have had feedback that public transport is too dear for many and they find it cheaper to drive as commented by somebody, particularly outside the CBD.  Periodical options do tend  to commit the user to regular public transport and they can use it for extra journeys within the zones for the fixed costs and seamlessly outside their zones with standard pay as you go fares. Otherwise they can opt for the pay as you go eg. myki money as for the go card.  Myki has capping of course. Smart cards can handle periodical and pay as you go concurrently, as does the myki.  By having both approaches as options this further encourages public transport use, some prefer pay as you go, others like the certainty of the periodical option, assists their budgeting etc.  It is no harder to set up than an auto top up.  

On the myki, if you elect say for a 300 day myki pass, and you end up in hospital or something you can claim back the unused days. A smart card periodical is different from the traditional weekly etc.  You can specify any period from 7 days to 365 for the myki for example.

Smart cards have the capacity to do smart things, it is pity that the full potential for the go card is latent.

[#Metro]

Actually, agreed with Somebody that you don't need to give regular peak hour work commuters a discount. Why do they deserve it? What travel pattern will it encourage? PT work commuters are going to use it 5 days a week regardless, and as Somebody said you'd just be needless reducing farebox recovery without increasing patronage.

If you travel in peak period, you should be charged peak hour prices. Space is scarce and capacity improvements for peak loads are expensive.
Pricing should reflect that.

The biggest fear I have is that the prices will go up, but my train will still be every 30 minutes. I will be paying more for no improvement!!!
Fare increases without matching service improvements in the long term will kill PT usage. Creative accounting with the rail seats will not
avoid this! No amount of muffins can compensate for poor of peak frequency!

If I am going to spend that much time at a platform, QR can serve me dinner while I wait!! 

[ozbob]

The biggest fear I have is that the prices will go up, but my train will still be every 30 minutes.

The only flagged improvement at this time is on the  Ipswich - Caboolture line, and my guess is that will only be the result of Richlands and increased frequency between Darra and town (but better than nothing).  Do you prefer chocolate with chocolate chips?  Or banana muffin??

There will be some unhappy pax around come next January, no doubt.

It might take a new political movement to get things sorted.  Take Richlands out of the equation and nothing is really planned for rail at all.  The promised timetable consultation is another in the long list of nothings ...  I have had few witches, goblins, and other miscellaneous critters calling for a trick or treat as I contemplate the new rail timetable.  It must be November tomorrow, the time for the promised public timetable consultation.

Just consider that for a moment.  It is a con job of the highest order all the waffle.  Talking about waffles, maybe QR could offer those as an alternative to muffins?

[somebody]

Some years back, I had a job in Kingsgrove, lived in the CBD and had no car space.  I used the Sydney Buses a fair bit.  Every week, I had to decide if I should buy a rail weekly for $28, or a Green Travelpass for $40.  I think the break even point must have been about 6 bus trips/week.  I hated having to think about this.  I also hated the idea that if I went beyond the Travelpass on the train, it was useless unless I got off the train partway through and bought a ticket.  This is what is good about the current fare structure.  No one has to think about what ticket they should buy - or at least that will be the case when they abolish dailies/weeklies/monthlies.

The capping (journey).  Many folks are not clear on what a journey is, they confuse it with a trip.  Although a trip can be a journey of course ..

It is what it is, after two journeys then free there after. 

I think the problem is that two words which have the same meaning in English have been given different meanings.

[somebody]

London, New York, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Vancouver and all the other jurisdictions are they wrong with their incentive ticketing plans?

Adl & Per only have daily ones though.  Not too sure about the overseas jurisdictions.

There is going to be an almighty backlash come January when the fare increases impact.  The projected 305,000 weekly seats is nothing really.  The only railway line to gain a significant frequency increase will be the sector Darra to town IMHO. Richlands will open with a 30 minute frequency is my guess.  Some other lines might get one or two extra services here and there.  The promises of real frequency increases are not matching the rationale for their fare increases.  It is obvious to political observers that they will go down on this unless there is a bit of reversal prior to the next election.  And when backsides are on the line anything is possible.

The constant dribble and spin is getting to people judging by the feedback, blogs and comments made to me. Promises of improved train frequency stretching back to 2007.  Most of it unrealised and nonsense.

I hope you're right here.  I think there will be something of a backlash in Jan, but worse than last time around?

[Gazza]

I think the problem is that two words which have the same meaning in English have been given different meanings.

Trips should be renamed a 'leg' then. Hmm, lets rewrite my spiel....

A journey is comprised of up to 4  individual legs on buses, trains and ferries (modes) in a row over a maximum 5 hour period, with no more than a 1 hour break between each leg.
A leg on a particular mode begins when you touch on, and ends when you touch off.
So, If more than 1 hour elapses after your last touch off, the journey is counted as finished, and your next touch on will initiate a new journey.

Whaddaya reckon? All TL staff should learn this off by heart for when a customer asks  

The biggest fear I have is that the prices will go up, but my train will still be every 30 minutes. I will be paying more for no improvement!!!
Fare increases without matching service improvements in the long term will kill PT usage. Creative accounting with the rail seats will not
avoid this! No amount of muffins can compensate for poor of peak frequency!

This is what I see as important.

We can spend quite a lot of time debating exactly how/when/what people get in terms of frequent use discounts, but at the end of the day I've always seen fare policy as a fairly minor piece of the puzzle, and even if we did implement one of the strategies discussed it's not going to be some almighty revelation that will cause a spike in patronage..... I think speed, frequency and reliability are far more important in the scheme of things in terms of driving patronage.

Just browsing this board I discovered a post by Somebody that really does hit the nail on the head:

I would like to see the evidence for lower fares vs more frequent services.
I think pricing is a bit weak, its such a low cost thing that I don't even think about the price.

Even if PT was free in the off peak, how useful is it if it only comes every 30 minutes? For an infrequent service like that, even a price of zero is probably too expensive, the price would have to be negative (i.e. TransLink pays you to catch the bus)

The evidence from BUZ shows that when you put services on in the off peak with legible branding, people will use them. Most of the growth in BUZ routes did not happen at peak times- they happened in the off peak, in the evenings and on the weekends. Sunday patronage is now bigger than weekday pre-BUZification on many routes.

Public Transport is a derived demand- people consume it because they want to go somewhere or do something.
What is suppressing these trips isn't price IMHO, its the lack of off peak services.

[Golliwog]

Well if you were going to tinker with the 10 journey discount scheme, I would think changing it to a 2 journey/day scheme would be better. As Bob was saying, quite often people aren't commuting 5 days a week, so to go with the other analogy, there would be no benefit to them for using public transport to go to dinner on the Thursday night. With the 2 journey/day there would be, although the extra two PT journeys don't have to be PT and they don't give any benefit to the usual trips they make.

Perhaps they could have the 2 journey/day scheme but perhaps as well as (or instead of?) applying the discount to those extra journeys on the day, they also get a discount on the next journey on the next day they catch PT. That way if they aren't M-F office drones they still get a benefit on their next work commute.

[ozbob]

Our main game is pushing for frequency Gazza.  Frequency is the main driver clearly and most of our efforts go on that.  Fares are a necessary distraction but the main game is frequency, be it rail (the major weakness in pt in seq) bus or ferry.  I am of the view that the major reason for the failure to drive the public transport mode share from the first integrated regional transport plan (1997) was the absolute failure to address the poor train frequency.  We still struggle with the worst frequency for comparable systems anywhere.  January 2011 will be significant as it is the beginning of a new paradigm.  I expect patronage growth on the inner Ippy will boom.

I think most of us think of the hierarchy of improvement as decreasing order of importance as frequency, accessibility, affordability.

Some are of the view it is about frequency, frequency, frequency, but the public transport has to be accessible and in place to use of course, relative affordability is of some importance but not the main driver.

[somebody]

Trips should be renamed a 'leg' then. Hmm, lets rewrite my spiel....

Not a bad idea.

We can spend quite a lot of time debating exactly how/when/what people get in terms of frequent use discounts, but at the end of the day I've always seen fare policy as a fairly minor piece of the puzzle, and even if we did implement one of the strategies discussed it's not going to be some almighty revelation that will cause a spike in patronage..... I think speed, frequency and reliability are far more important in the scheme of things in terms of driving patronage.

Yes, speed certainly comes into it.  I'd say the priorities for SEQ are: frequency, speed, accessibility, affordability.  Even a 15 minute frequency is mediocre IMO.  But it needs to get to that level for as many people as possible before we start to think about increasing above that level.

Just browsing this board I discovered a post by Somebody that really does hit the nail on the head:

Like to take the credit, but I think TT wrote that.

[Gazza]

I too have had feedback that public transport is too dear for many and they find it cheaper to drive as commented by somebody, particularly outside the CBD.

For Australia's most popular small (Hyundai Getz) medium (Toyota Corolla) and large (Holden Commodore) cars the running costs per km are
43.70, 60.12 and 82.85 cents/km respectively.
(Source: http://www.racq.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/55673/Private_Ownership_Costs_2010.pdf )
In 2011, this puts the break even point for a 1 zone ticket at 6.1 km, 4.4km and 3.2km respectively, and for concession holders, half of that.

You could argue though that journeys below the break even point could/should be made on active transport, Netherlands style since the distance is so short, but that's a whole other debate. On the other hand, it does show where the true market for PT is at the moment, Trips longer than 3 -6 km.

assumes you have done 10 journeys during the week.  In fact many don't do that,

Are stats available on how many people do precisely 10 trips in a week. (Or even better, a distribution of how many people do 1, 2, 3, 4....14, 14+ per week. Full stats like that are needed to really make a decision for what number of trips a usage discount should kick in.

[ozbob]

No data available publicly that I am aware of.

Cheers
Bob

[Stillwater]

There's nothing like healthy debate - it's all good.  Perhaps RailBOT should nut out a position on fare structure and frequency and write to all political parties, asking them to adopt whatever's proposed.  RailBOT could ask that its position be adopted within the party policy going to the next state election in about 18 months time.  That way, the Opposition's glib stance 'the government has got it wrong and should listen to what the people want' would be tested, as well as the government's position.  The simple question to the Opposition: "If you have been listening to what the people want, what are you prepared to deliver if elected to government?"  Something of an auction could be worked up fairly easily.  The election will change things, which ever party comes to power.  In the meantime, we have the public consultation on timetables, where the frequency argument can be pushed.

[ozbob]

Good idea.  Been thinking a bit lately about the coming election.  The PTUA (Victoria) have put out a good summary document.  Available from here http://www.ptua.org.au/2010/10/11/election-2010-manifesto/ particularly http://www.ptua.org.au/files/2010/PTUA_State_Election2010.pdf

Still a while off for us but we could form a 'Fare strategy committee', they could put together something and then put it forward for comment etc.  Draft a final version and then put forward for a vote for the members here.

Will give it some more thought.

[somebody]

Poll created here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4763.0

[nocost]

javascript:void(0); At long last, capped daily fares. But what about kids & the unemployed. As for 'temporary' go-cards for tourists. Give the bloody things away with $10 on them at the air,train & bus stations. Include a guide to 'topping-up'. Do we want to confuse or discourage visitors to our fair shores; or have them go home and say "S.E.Q has a good Public Transport system, and so easy to use"

[Gazza]

^I reckon the tourists will cope just fine.
London gets many more tourists than us and everyone knows you just get an Oyster card. It's well publicised in tourist guides, and on the TfL network itself.
These days it's much easier to get information on holiday destinations, and I'd contend that tourists probably do more prior research than many of our local casual users.

[ozbob]

Media Release 8 December 2010

SEQ:  Have I completed a go card trip or a journey?

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has previously welcomed the free travel journey cap after two journeys for Seniors and some pensioners (1), but has highlighted need to explain in detail how the journey capping actually works.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"There are significant fare and ticketing changes on the TransLink public transport network from the 17th of January 2011 (2). There is a new daily journey go card cap on fares for Seniors, Pension Concession Card holders and Repatriation Health Care Card (Gold Card) holders which means after two journeys are made in one day all additional journeys are free."

"It is clear from discussions and feedback that many go card users are not clear on what the journey cap means and how it works."

"A journey is comprised of up to 4 trips on buses, trains and ferries in a row over a maximum 5 hour period, with no more than a 1 hour break between each trip. A trip on a particular mode begins when you touch on, and ends when you touch off. So, if more than 1 hour elapses after your last touch off, the journey is counted as finished, and your next touch on will initiate a new journey."

"The free travel for those so entitled only occurs after two completed journeys are made in a day."

"We would like to see the journey capping extended to all concession go card users to include full time university students and school children."

References:

1. 31 October 2010 SEQ: Go card journey capping for students?  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4752.0

2. http://www.translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/changes-to-fares-and-ticketing-in-2011

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org