STOP PRESS: Go card changes

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Fares fair: call for Go Card caps dismissed

Fares fair: call for Go Card caps dismissed
Daniel Hurst
October 30, 2010 - 6:36AM

Queensland's transport minister has poured cold water on calls for better Go Card fare structures.

The state government yesterday dumped plans to scrap paper transport tickets and introduce a tourist-friendly Go Card at the end of the year.

The decision to retain one-way tickets followed claims the introduction of an alternative smartcard product would have cost more than $30 million and inconvenienced casual users.

Transport fares are due to rise by 15 per cent in January, but seniors and pensioners using Go Cards will benefit from a new two-journey daily fare cap.

Commuter lobby group Rail Back on Track and the state opposition yesterday called for better fare structures to also be put in place for other commuters, including students.

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan gave them a lukewarm response.

"We are not currently proposing any other changes," she said.

Ms Nolan said the existing frequent user incentive – which gives Go Card travellers half-price trips after notching up 10 journeys in a week – would continue.

She said single Go Card journeys would remain 30 per cent cheaper than paper tickets, with the guiding principle being that "people pay for the travel they do".

"Our central thing is to keep it reasonably simple and to keep it reasonable," she said.

But opposition transport spokeswoman Fiona Simpson said the government's new incentives – such as boosting the off-peak discount from 10 to 15 per cent – would be "nullified" by the 15 per cent fare hikes.

Ms Simpson pointed to the Myki smartcard system used in Melbourne, where commuters enjoy fares capped to a daily maximum and other flexible features.

"I think we need to see more flexibility in the fare structure," she said.

Rail Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said the government's planned incentives for pensioners and seniors were "very very welcome".

"This means that these users can make multiple daily journeys and only pay for the first two," he said.

However, Mr Dow called for improved capping and periodical options to be extended to other users and the off-peak discount to be further increased.

Other Go Card concession holders should also benefit from a two-journey-per-day cap, he said.

"Students are the other constituency that do proportionally more daily journeys," he said.

"They are in many cases 'learner earners' and they need to undertake multiple daily journeys in the course of their study and often part-time employment. They too do it tough."

New fares coming into effect on January 17 will push up the cost of a two-zone Go Card journey from $2.70 to $3.11. The fare for the same journey on a paper ticket will rise from $3.90 to $4.60.

Users can currently purchase a daily ticket, which offers unlimited journeys for the price of two single-journey tickets. These will be abolished in January.

[david]

Sorry for my ignorance and for changing the topic, but was there a reason why Ms Nolan made the announcement at Darra Station? Was there another announcement that got less attention than this go card announcement?

[AnonymouslyBad]

The retention of paper tickets isn't surprising and IMO, probably a good thing. Perhaps one day we can go truly paperless, but if that day was January 2011 it would have been a logistical nightmare. The only way this could have been avoided is by selling the temporary go cards the same way paper tickets are sold now, in which case what's the point? There's far more important things TL can spend millions of dollars on.

What I am disappointed to see though is the promise of 305,000 new seats. Here we go again... That's basically the same as last year, which only ended up being a couple of significant improvements, with the rest being just enough tweaks at the last minute for them to be able to say they did it. Hopefully those new "seats" this year are a bit more substantial (and not just upgrading 3 car trains!) otherwise I'd say we need a much higher number.

[ozbob]

Sorry for my ignorance and for changing the topic, but was there a reason why Ms Nolan made the announcement at Darra Station? Was there another announcement that got less attention than this go card announcement?

I was there and it was just on go card.  The Minister did take some time to have a look around as well.

[p858snake]

* Seniors to get capped fares (everyone else apparently not)

I wonder if someone will end up suing over this over discrimination or something silly.

[ozbob]

* Seniors to get capped fares (everyone else apparently not)

I wonder if someone will end up suing over this over discrimination or something silly.

No in law that is not discrimination.

--> http://www.adcq.qld.gov.au/Brochures07/exempt.html

[BrizCommuter]

I've made few calculations in the link. (Please someone correct me if I've mis-counted). It seems that the demise of the daily paper ticket could hit tourists, students, and other frequent users with some very shocking fare increases.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/10/2011-translink-cash-grab.html

[ozbob]

Yes looks right to me.  I am particularly concerned with the impact on uni students.  I know many do exactly as you suggest 4 or more journeys in a day.  The paper daily was a good option for them.  They really do need journey capping as for the seniors/pensioners.

Thanks for sharing the information.

[STB]

I've made few calculations in the link. (Please someone correct me if I've mis-counted). It seems that the demise of the daily paper ticket could hit tourists, students, and other frequent users with some very shocking fare increases.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/10/2011-translink-cash-grab.html

I would argue as a student that most students generally travel straight to work from uni if they do it the same day, or in most cases they don't work on days that classes are on so they only make 2 journeys a day, at least from the students I've known in my multiple uni courses.  Regardless I think it's still cheaper (just) as you would very quickly get to half price travel anyway and I've worked this out in the past (2010 prices) that you'd need to do at least 4 more journeys before you go over a weekly ticket price (for a concession ticket).

Then again, I've only been at uni for one year and that above has been from my observations of the classes I've been in.

[STB]

I'll just add that for me to have a paper ticket would've not of been viable as it would've limited the zones I can travel to and with classes on different campuses on different days, I would've needed to simply buy daillies everyday as each day was different to where I had to travel to.  It would've been useless if I had brought a zone 3-5 weekly, as even though I did travel zones 3-5 mostly during the week, the other campuses are located in zone 1 and zone 12 but I don't travel to them everyday like a commuter would.  If I had brought a zone 1-12 weekly it would've been a waste as I would've only used it once a week to zone 12 and once a week to zone 1.

[#Metro]

Paper weeklies and monthlies were good because you could have as much as you like.
Look, to be honest, I think the fare system will work out to be OK.

Caps are really good because they would get rid of this GoCard is expensive perception.
The idea that "most" people only take 2 trips per day, therefore provision for only 2 trips is required, is something I disagree with.
I find that idea similar to the "most people only travel in the peak, therefore don't put services in the off peak" idea which is also self-justifying.

The guiding principle should be this: Public transport must be there at a level of service that can substitute the car trip.

This does not mean PT down every street, but it does mean re-thinking things.
The biggest market for PT to gain on the car is OFF-PEAK and Weekend trips. It is leisure trips, non-CBD trips, cross-town etc.

The Brisbane BUZ is proof- the greatest gains were on weekends and in the off peak. Route 199 showed almost a 300% increase in patronage
in the evenings. I'm not making this stuff up- it is real.

Melbourne SmartBus is proof positive that there is a market for cross-town and short trips to the rail station or the local shops.

I am surprised that initiatives like the BUZ or SmartBus ever made it, got funded and implemented. They are completely crazy ideas that on paper would seem absolutely out of this world. What's shocking is that they actually work, and have been very successful. Now nobody thinks they are bad ideas...

So to conclude, I don't mind fare increases IF they come with proportionate service improvements.
I am still waiting 30 minutes for trains, buses etc. A lot of my time is being wasted.
Time is money. If the fare goes up but my waiting time goes down, overall my total costs haven't changed that much.

These things ^^^ are more important to me than what the off peak discount is or the capping.

Mind you, if I get charged more and no or minimal service improvements, I will be very disappointed.  

[somebody]

Unless you are a tourist in town for only a few days, or an infrequent PT commuter, the dailies never made much sense.  That would be 4 trips which don't count towards your frequent user discount.  If you are doing a lot of trips a week, then the weeklies did make sense.

[ozbob]

I know a lot of students who used paper daily tickets on high journey days and go card on other days.  Even with the 50% they were better off with selective variation. Some used weekly tickets because they could use them on weekends as well of course (Friday night too ) Most students that I was working with did a minimum of 4 journeys on class days.

[somebody]

Hmm.  If you have an "off peak daily" for 2 zones, and use 4 trips on it, those trips have cost $3 instead of $4.88, saving you $1.88.  However, if you have forgone the 50% discount on 4 other 2 zone trips, then that has cost you $2.44.  So you have lost out.  If one of the first 4 trips was off peak, you couldn't use an off peak daily.  This is only possible as far as I can see if you don't acrue 10 go card trips with the daily.  If you get 9 with a go card + 1 day's off peak daily, then losing the frequent user costs you $1.83.  You are 5c better off.  But it still won't work on the 13 weekly trip example if you are considering a normal daily, rather than an off peak daily.

[ozbob]

A characteristic of travel by seniors and students is that they do not necessarily do high journeys each day.  It may only be one or two days a week. This is why the paper daily was attractive, and is exactly this feedback that lead to the seniors journey capping.  Problem is they left out the students.

Capping should be universal in any case.   Myki fare structure is the way to go, myki money and myki pass. Pay as you go with daily capping and periodical options, which can operate concurrently.  

-->  http://www.myki.com.au/Fares/default.aspx  CAUTION  you might turn green with envy ...

Students pay 50% of the full fare, but also get all the ticketing options with the myki eg. automatic capping when applicable etc.

[WTN]

Back in my former university student days, I had patterns similar to what Ozbob described. Every day was a different schedule. Some days had no classes, some had mornings, some had evenings, and sometimes both, with several hours break in the middle. On days where I had more than 5 hours between classes, I often returned home or went elsewhere (generating more trips). Some students I knew didn't return home, but went elsewhere (shops, socialising). Other students also travelled between campuses.

Exam time was different again - I had 3-6 exams scattered across 2-3 weeks, even on Saturdays.

Given the adhoc nature of student travel plus their limited budget, it makes sense to cap their fares.

For the rest of the public, perhaps make a compromise and introduce capping after 3-4 journeys. Better than none.

[Gazza]

Just some random thoughts on the whole situation.

If it's only going to be singles on paper then I don't really see a case for why they would need to be carboard RFID based fare media.
The only advantages I could see for going down this route is:
-Ability to fully lock barrier lines at stations, since these cards could activate them (But since they are closed anway and have attendants then this point is moot)
-Life might be slightly easier for bus drivers, since they would just watch for a successful touch on rather than straining to read the zone/time on the ticket)

But there would be a number of disadvantages to this approach.
-The disposable RFID cards would be more expensive then the current strip of paper given out, and would not be fully biodegradable.
-Station fare machines would need internal modifications in order to spit these out.
-Issuing an RFID ticket would be slower than a paper one. At present the driver just punches in the trip details and the paper ticket comes out. With an RFID product the driver would need to punch in the trip details, hand the passenger the card, who would then have to touch the reader to have the trip details written onto the card, and then touch a second time in order to "touch on".
-The holder of the RFID ticket has no visual indication of the expiry time.

The loss of monthlies/weeklies is no real...errm loss either IMO.

If someone did 14 one zone trips (so 2 per day) on go card per week for a month they'd be paying $108.56
If they were a hard nosed 9-5er who didn't use PT on weekends they'd be paying $92.
Compare that with the current paper monthly price of $108.80

Similarly someone on a sixteen zone ticket doing 14 runs from between the GC and Bris would be paying $457.84 (Or $388 for the hard nosed 9-5er)
Compare that with the current paper monthly price of $451.20

Crunching the same numbers for weekly users.

1 Zone...
14 Trips: $ 27.14
9-5er (10 Trips): $23
Paper Weekly: $27.20

16 Zone...
14 Trips: $114.46
9-5er (10 Trips): $97
Paper Weekly: $112.80

I'm really now questioning if it would even be worth it to implement an option to store monthly passes on the card. Yes, other systems do it, but with our current fare structure it seems like an awful lot of programming effort to make to save a handful of users at best a measly couple of bucks a week/$7 or so per month.

And yes, I know there is that argument that monthly/weekly users have the advantage of being able to take extra trips per day at no additional costs, but simply extending the new price capping offer to all users would solve that problem straight away, and would be simpler than trying to program a myki style "loaded periodical" setup.

Comparisons with Myki aren't quite valid anyway. The big difference is that Myki has just replicated the existing fare structure, and as such genuine periodical ticket discounts do exist. On the other hand Translink have moved the goalposts a bit by putting GoCard prices down and putting all paper based product prices up, so the case for "loaded periodicals" is diminished.

Furthermore Why should people who travel in a set, back and forth pattern each week/month be specifically targeted for a discount over all other users?

There might have been a case in the past that selling periodicals would reduce the number of tickets that needed to be sold/transactions, but if its all electronic now then that reasoning is not relevant anymore.
The other argument for periodicals is that they encourage greater usage, but I can give an example as to why this is misdirected.

If you were to use some of my past travel patterns as an example....
-A few days per week I would have uni, and go from zones 4-2
-On other days I would go into the CBD during breaks between classes, or on days off so 4-1
-At least one day per week I would travel to the Gold Coast so zones 4-12, or 1-12 depending on the way I did the trip.

There is no periodical ticket that caters to this travel pattern. At the same time I'm using public transport just as much as many periodical ticket holders, yet if they are being targeted for a discount and I'm not then I see that as illogical.

So to that end I very much agree with Nolans statement that people should just pay for what you use. I see no reason why the current user group of periodical tickets deserve further subsidy over everyone else.

A far simpler approach than periodical tickets is just to have set levels of discount that kick in at certain points of use...The more you use, the more you save basically. The advantage of this approach is that you don't have to think a month in advance for your travel plans....you can just ride and ride and know you'll be rewarded.

The current go card fare structure isn't perfect, but at the same time it's not too bad, and beyond 17/01/2011 there will be plenty of scope to play around with things like the frequent user scheme to get the discounts happening sooner for most users.

For the record, Perths Smartrider doesn't have periodicals or daily capping so it's not a be all and end all for a high quality PT system 

As for catering to tourists. As much as we can we should be trying to get them using the plastic go cards. I say just sell them a special 'tourist' souvenir design one at a discount on presentation of ID that shows they reside outside of SEQ, and sell it at the airport, major stations, information centers and places of accommodation. At the end of their stay they can get the cash refunded and take the card as a momento.
I actually have a 'Visitors Oyster Card' from London, got it at Gatwick Airport, it was a pound cheaper than a regular one, and had pictures of London icons on it.

[ozbob]

http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares/GeneralFareInformation/tabid/111/Default.aspx

Perths Smartrider doesn't have periodicals or daily capping

Wrong. Perth smart rider does have capping.   I am not aware of a smart card jurisdiction that does not have some form of daily capping, the go card has capping but in a different form. The non accessibility of this form of capping for some was basis of journey capping introduction for seniors/pensioners.  If it had daily capping the now contested journey capping for seniors and pensioners would be a non issue. So in fact they have complicated the system themselves.  

DayRider (A)

Standard DayRider is valid for unlimited system-wide travel after 9.00am on weekdays and all day on weekends and Public Holidays.

Concession DayRider is valid for unlimited system-wide travel before 7.15am and after 9.00am on weekdays and all day on weekends and Public Holidays. Concession DayRider is available from 8.30am in zones five to nine.

SmartRider will always calculate the lowest fare available for you. If your fare would normally exceed the cost of your DayRider fare, SmartRider will automatically cap your fare at the DayRider rate provided you meet the DayRider time-of-travel requirements.

http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares/GeneralFareInformation/tabid/111/Default.aspx

Periodical options for the go card would further drive public transport whilst still having the flexibility for travel outside the users periodical zones as pay as you go.

The fact is the majority of users do want capping and periodical options. Individually we may differ in our opinions but that is no reason not to argue for fare improvements.  The feedback we receive is overwhelming.

e.g.

hi yes its me again just want to say i totally agree with you over the capping principle of the go card like what was said in yesterdays MX magazine

i just want to add one comment they need a stored value pass of 7-365 days of travel like on myki

I have little doubt that going into the next state election the fare structure of public transport in SEQ will be a major issue.

As for catering to tourists. As much as we can we should be trying to get them using the plastic go cards. I say just sell them a special 'tourist' souvenir design one at a discount on presentation of ID that shows they reside outside of SEQ, and sell it at the airport, major stations, information centers and places of accommodation. At the end of their stay they can get the cash refunded and take the card as a momento.
I actually have a 'Visitors Oyster Card' from London, got it at Gatwick Airport, it was a pound cheaper than a regular one, and had pictures of London icons on it.

Exactly, well said.

Periodical options for go card could be based on the cost of 10 journeys for the zones desired for a weekly, this would then allow unrestricted travel for the period in the zones. Travel out side zones pay as you go fares.  Comparisons to the now grossly inflated weekly paper costs are very misleading.

[ozbob]

Media Release 31 October 2010

SEQ:  Go card journey capping for students?

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has welcomed the announcement of the journey capping for the go card for Seniors (red go card) and those users who use a green concession go card through a pension entitlement (1).  It would be a proper and easy thing to extend this journey capping to secondary and tertiary students, and children (2) as happens in other smart card jurisdictions (3,4).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"RAIL Back On Track is delighted that Seniors and pensioners will have a journey cap on their public daily public transport use.  This means that these users can make multiple daily journeys and only pay for the first two.  This is important as this constituency does the greatest number of daily journeys as they go about their daily commitments and tough financial times have meant that many Seniors and pensioners have restricted their outings since the implementation of the fare structure on 4th January last. That was not acceptable and we are pleased that journey capping is to be introduced from 17th January 2011 for Seniors with a red go card and pensioners using the green go card."

"We again call for the journey capping to be extended to ALL green concession go card users from the 17th January 2011.  Students are the other constituency that do proportionally more daily journeys.  Most of the full time tertiary students are actually 'learner earners' and they need to undertake multiple daily journeys in the course of their study and part-time employment. Many secondary school students are also working part-time. Students are too struggling to make ends meet and on the same basis that capping has been given to Seniors and pensioners it is too a similar sometimes desperate situation for students."

"The loss of daily paper tickets and no journey capping on the go card for those students doing 4 or more journeys in a day for example could mean an effective fare cost increase of around 50% (5). This is why we are calling for journey capping to be extended to all students. Tourists who use paper single tickets will also be similarly impacted which is why we have called for stepped up education and  improved distribution systems of go cards for tourists."

"We think TransLink and Government should re-think this denial of journey capping to students. Extending this capping to students, secondary as well as tertiary, would encourage maximum use of public transport and further encourage public transport use after the completion of studies as well as assist in avoiding financial hardship."

"Similarly journey capping should also be extended to the child go cards to assist families to get out and about.  This would then place all concession fare go cards on a level playing field which then confirms why these card holders have reduced concession fares in the first place."

References:

1. http://www.translink.com.au/farechange2011.php

2. http://www.translink.com.au/go_cards.php

3. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx

4. http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares/SmartRider/SmartRiderFaresandRules/tabid/103/Default.aspx

5. http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/10/2011-translink-cash-grab.html

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Something that should have been straight forward, the fare structure is now getting terribly complicated from the average user's perspective.

Some cards have journey capping some don't.  Some people can avail themselves of the 50% discount after ten journeys many cannot because of their travel patterns.  Many folks have little concept of what a journey is and what a trip is in go card speak.

A simple daily cap, eg. the highest zone journey in a 24 hour period by two plus a loading, say 30% would have been equitable and achievable by all, as well as driving public transport uptake.  A relatively easy program compared to the now increasing complicated situation.

The Opposition calls the roll out process 'shambolic'.  Many would agree with that.

I think leading into the election the opposition will simply go with a policy that daily journey capping is to be universal.  That would clearly resonate well with the travelling public.

[paulg]

Something that should have been straight forward, the fare structure is now getting terribly complicated from the average user's perspective.

Agreed. Way too complicated. A universal cap is needed.

Good media release Bob.

Cheers, Paul

[ozbob]

Opposition Statement  click here!

Paper ticket back flip shows go card planning 'shambolic'

Friday, 29 October 2010

The State Opposition welcomed news paper public transport tickets won't be scrapped in South East Queensland, but said the back flip showed how 'shambolic' the introduction of the go card had been.

Shadow Minister for Transport Fiona Simpson said Minister Nolan's announcement confirmed that little planning had been done before the launch of the $100 million electronic ticketing system.

"This back flip shows the Bligh Labor Government was happy to fumble along with this system, treating commuters as guinea pigs, rather than carrying out proper planning and preparing a business case at the start," Ms Simpson said.

"If the Minister had insisted on proper planning, she would have known the 'ambition' to distribute occasional user and tourist go cards was not viable and impractical before they announced they would scrap all paper tickets.

"The Minister has loudly and repeatedly announced something that was just an ambition, rather than something she could actually roll out.

"It says a lot about this tired Labor Government that unachievable hopes are treated as core policies."

Ms Simpson welcomed the announcement that seniors and pensioners would only be charged for two trips each day.

"Many seniors, who are already struggling with the higher cost of living under the Bligh Labor Government, have really struggled to meet the increased fare prices for public transport, so I welcome this change.

"This also shows the system can manage to accommodate flexible ticketing, such as daily, weekly and monthly caps.

"I know many commuters will be worse off financially after daily, weekly and monthly tickets are abolished.

"More needs to be done to encourage people to continue to use trains, buses, ferries and city cats to travel in and around our city."

[frereOP]

From the Brisbane mX 29th October 2010 page 1

Give us a free ride too

Everyone wants a free ride or a subsidy on something.  Irrespective of whether its justified (like subsiding pensioners or students) or not (subsidising fossil fuel use by motorists), remember that for every subsidy that anyone gets, someone else (ie the taxpayer) has to pay.  The "government" is the taxpayer, it isn't the mint, and funds are limited  - especially when people are also demanding lower taxes.  Remember too that public transport already receives huge (albeit justified) subsidies.

[#Metro]

Everyone wants a free ride or a subsidy on something.  Irrespective of whether its justified (like subsiding pensioners or students) or not (subsidising fossil fuel use by motorists), remember that for every subsidy that anyone gets, someone else (ie the taxpayer) has to pay.  The "government" is the taxpayer, it isn't the mint, and funds are limited  - especially when people are also demanding lower taxes.  Remember too that public transport already receives huge (albeit justified) subsidies.

Agreed.

IMHO the capping of Pensioner/Senior fares is a very significant gain for RailBOT.
Capping options or discount applied after 2 journeys would help move PT towards the endgoal of an all day use, general purpose use PT system used by people for anything and everything.

But that said, IMHO the system is now good enough to be workable.

The greatest thing holding back patronage is frequency, frequency, frequency, certainly in the off peak  
That's what's holding back PT patronage, not fares. The costs of waiting time are costs too, and cannot be ignored. They
are the hidden penalty you pay over and above the ticket price when you buy a ticket. These waiting times are not "capped"
or discounted!!!

Time is money!

Some government plans and initiatives have been shambolic, which deserves a good spanking come the elections IMHO.The Connecting SEQ 2031 is a significant step forward and gives hope IMHO. However, the overuse of gimmicky initiatives in the face of poor train frequency is not a good look.

[ozbob]

When you consider the externalities public transport is actually a money saver.  The more incentives for folks to use it the better. This is why making it first choice not last choice is the key.  A mode shift can be got by moving past the blinkered visions of the 9 to 5 commutes and their 10 journeys a week.  Providing ticketing incentives to drive it as the choice apart from the commutes. This then drives further frequency increases The fare box is actually increased, the savings in broad economic terms become significant.  If road transport actually paid it's real costs and had to engage the safe working practises of rail nothing would move.

London, New York, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Vancouver and all the other jurisdictions are they wrong with their incentive ticketing plans?

Personally I think not, and it is time Brisbane got really with it.

Cheers!

[Gazza]

Wrong. Perth smart rider does have capping.   I am not aware of a smart card jurisdiction that does not have some form of daily capping, the go card has capping but in a different form. The non accessibility of this form of capping for some was basis of journey capping introduction for seniors/pensioners.  If it had daily capping the now contested journey capping for seniors and pensioners would be a non issue. So in fact they have complicated the system themselves.  

DayRider (A)

Standard DayRider is valid for unlimited system-wide travel after 9.00am on weekdays and all day on weekends and Public Holidays.

Concession DayRider is valid for unlimited system-wide travel before 7.15am and after 9.00am on weekdays and all day on weekends and Public Holidays. Concession DayRider is available from 8.30am in zones five to nine.

SmartRider will always calculate the lowest fare available for you. If your fare would normally exceed the cost of your DayRider fare, SmartRider will automatically cap your fare at the DayRider rate provided you meet the DayRider time-of-travel requirements.

I did see that last night, but it's not true capping simply because of the post 9am requirement that must be met for the discount to apply. In the same way that the 10 trip requirement for GoCard limits its availability to most users, the post 9am requirement mean anybody who makes a morning commute in Perth misses out on the full benefit, so it's not perfect.
Plus the Day Rider is a flat $9, so would not kick in for people in the lower numbered zones until a heap of trips....Eg a Perth traveler hopping around in Zone 1 who made a morning trip would need to make 4 trips (@$2.50 each) after this in a single day for the discount to kick in, and those 4 trips would cost them $11.50 all up. A true daily cap would actually be $5.
( I define a true daily cap as = widest zone single trip taken by user in a given day * 2 )

Periodical options for the go card would further drive public transport whilst still having the flexibility for travel outside the users periodical zones as pay as you go.

The point of providing discounts on particular public transport tickets is to encourage certain travel behaviours, for example off peak discounts encourage spreading of the passenger load to reduce peak capacity requirements.

But to me, I don't see what major boost to PT or improvement to usage patterns that would come about from offering periodicals, or what usage pattern we are encouraging by offering periodicals.

As I have said above, periodical tickets really only benefit 9-5ers who travel in a set pattern every week, and gives them a discount. Yet at the same time you can be a very frequent user of PT, but if the zones you travel during the week are ad-hoc then you miss out!
So flat discounting is better because everyone is able to benefit, and it doesn't require you to buy in advance.
(And that's another point, Monthly tickets provide savings to people who can afford to pony up for the ticket in one lump sum, yet lower income earners who cant afford to do this miss out on the savings.....another example of the discount being misdirected)

Periodical options for go card could be based on the cost of 10 journeys for the zones desired for a weekly, this would then allow unrestricted travel for the period in the zones. Travel out side zones pay as you go fares. Comparisons to the now grossly inflated weekly paper costs are very misleading.

The whole reason we've seen the fare hikes is because the govt wants to get the subsidy down, and direct the money into actual services.

By setting the price of GoCard periodicals at 10 trips, you're basically not collecting any money to run weekend services.

How can we hope to see service improvements in one area that needs it most if they are being bled dry and nobody is is paying for them?

Even with the fare hikes, the cost of PT is still well and truly cheaper than running a car, so the people who use PT for cost reasons would already be doing so, so giving them more discounts is a nicety, but its not going to change anything. For those who continue to pay the cost of driving, it's because services aren't good enough, basically.
And this is basically the root of the problem, the money isn't there.
In any PT system running costs far outweigh the capital costs. While we can argue that money for once off capital expenditure on PT needs to shift away from roads, the actual 'day to day' running costs and subsidies would be coming from a different pot that competes with the other 'day to day' costs of government (Eg running health, education, public service etc). While the case diverting capital money from roads is easy to make, its a bit more blurred if its competing with hospitals or whatever.

I do sort of think that weekly/monthly tickets are a bit of a gravy train. By all means, give some discount to encourage weekend usage...but effectively making it free is too far. I'd much rather have a good weekend service that I pay for, than a bad 'free' one that will never see improvements directed towards it because it's a money pit.

So one last point to follow on from that. If we do persist in "giving away" PT on weekends, then when the government is looking to roll out services they naturally go towards ones that give the most bang for their buck, since that's the mindset governments operate in these days.
If we have a situation where they are tossing up between choosing to fund frequency improvements in peak hour to reduce crowding, versus weekend/off peak improvements , they're naturally going to be biased towards the peak hour improvement since the fully packed train will have better cost recovery, and hence the cost/benefit ratio is higher.
Fact of life I guess unfortunatley.

I think simultaneously arguing for better PT on weekends, and then wanting it for free is a lost cause.

Edit:

London, New York, Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Vancouver and all the other jurisdictions are they wrong with their incentive ticketing plans?

Personally I think not, and it is time Brisbane got really with it.

Historically, the reason for offering periodicals was to reduce the strain on ticket offices/staffing, the number of transactions that need to be made, and the number of physical tickets that needed to be issued. Instead of collecting money every day, they could do it once a week/once a month. When some of these cites moved to smart cards I think the periodicals were retained for political reasons rather than for the promotion of particular travel patterns. Evidently SEQ decided to go against this and we've seen the result  

[#Metro]

Thanks for these comments- they are a different perspective on things which was good to read.   

[ozbob]

( I define a true daily cap as = widest zone single trip taken by user in a given day * 2 )

Agree there, the algorithm I have raised before but with a cap loading say 30%.  This would work well, better than the present 50% after 10 journeys.

Incentive ticketing, be it periodical or go card discount is a reality.  It drives use, this then generates the savings externally.  For too long we have just focussed on the narrow perspective IMHO.  One of the issues considered for the seniors/pensioners capping was the improved health outcomes. Labour savings with go card have not translated into savings or improved frequency in a major way at all. Some would argue the reverse.

There is going to be an almighty backlash come January when the fare increases impact.  The projected 305,000 weekly seats is nothing really.  The only railway line to gain a significant frequency increase will be the sector Darra to town IMHO. Richlands will open with a 30 minute frequency is my guess.  Some other lines might get one or two extra services here and there.  The promises of real frequency increases are not matching the rationale for their fare increases.  It is obvious to political observers that they will go down on this unless there is a bit of reversal prior to the next election.  And when backsides are on the line anything is possible.

The constant dribble and spin is getting to people judging by the feedback, blogs and comments made to me. Promises of improved train frequency stretching back to 2007.  Most of it unrealised and nonsense.

Cheers!

[ozbob]

The whole reason we've seen the fare hikes is because the govt wants to get the subsidy down, and direct the money into actual services.

[#Metro]

Looking at Gazza's comments, IMHO the goals need to be clarified. What is it that we want and why?

* PT alternative to the car
* Affordable PT
* Shifting peak load into off-peak
* Peak hour demand management tool
* Social goals - pensioners/students etc?

Others?

As I have said above, periodical tickets really only benefit 9-5ers who travel in a set pattern every week, and gives them a discount.
Yet at the same time you can be a very frequent user of PT, but if the zones you travel during the week are ad-hoc then you miss out!

This is a well made point IMHO.

If you do more than the 2 commutes in a day, you should get a discount for the next trips you take. One approach is to
cap the fare, the other is heavier discounts for the off peak. This seems quite tricky, but there is logic to it. So there could be a case
for off peak capping or a heavier relative discount for off peak travel. My view is still that the goals of off peak patronage and spreading the load
would be boosted faster by simply increasing the frequency rather than tinkering with fare structures. Time is money, and waiting at a platform for 30 minutes
is an expensive added cost when this is taken into account.

So flat discounting is better because everyone is able to benefit, and it doesn't require you to buy in advance. (And that's another point,
Monthly tickets provide savings to people who can afford to pony up for the ticket in one lump sum, yet lower income earners who cant afford to
do this miss out on the savings.....another example of the discount being misdirected)

Another good point. IMHO there is good reason to abolish the discount after 10 journeys and possibly replace it with either an off peak cap, a more heavily discounted
off peak travel or a reduced fare after two journeys are made in the day. Waiting a whole week before discount kicks in is too long. If you do 2 journeys in the day, any journeys over andabove that could come at a flat discount IMHO. I see your point about not providing free travel above the requirement. If travel was free, the train would have
more passengers but no revenue from them, which breaks the relationship between increased passengers and increased farebox.
http://www.ptua.org.au/myths/free.shtml

Even with the fare hikes, the cost of PT is still well and truly cheaper than running a car, so the people who use PT for cost reasons would
already be doing so. For those who continue to pay the cost of driving, it's because services aren't good enough, basically.

I agree. Selling rotten apples for free will not make the apples any less rotten. Quality and frequency must be improved dramatically
so that people see PT as something worth paying for.

[Derwan]

I agree with Gazza and I've said similar things before.  The only reason why we had dailies, weeklies and monthlies was it was easy for a paper-based ticketing system.

Before the days of integrated ticketing, you used to buy a "return".  Once you'd completed your return trip, they take the ticket off you.  If you had a single, they'd take the ticket off you at the destination.  There was no such thing as a capped daily ticket.  If you wanted to make more than 2 journeys, you head to pay for every one!

With the introduction of integrated ticketing, they had to allow for transfers.  A "single" or "return" wasn't so simple any more.  To make it simple, they introduced daily tickets.  This catered for most people who would do 2 trips (i.e. a return) in the day.

Now with Go Cards, we have the ability to collect fares for each journey - so it's basically going back to how it used to be, while still allowing for transfers to different modes.

HOWEVER, I do believe that the 50% discount should be triggered sooner than 10 journeys.  At the moment it gives no incentive to catch PT every day.  If it triggered after 6 or even 8 journeys, it'd reduce the number of people who decide to drive a couple of days a week.

[ozbob]

I have always argued for a daily cap rather than the present 50% after 10 journeys.  That would be a much more effective driver than the present system.  The data shows around 90% doing less than 10 journeys a week or less (from memory, might be a bit higher can't quite recall the exact figure but it is surprising).  A cap based on highest zone x 2 +30 % would be more effective.  The present fare structure clearly isn't.  A proper cap will make periodical options less needed by the masses (BUT there is a strong community desire for this though, and you cannot discount that in the heated polytick environment coming up with ideological pronouncements of financial purity and promise.)

[#Metro]

I'm coming around to your guys views...

HOWEVER, I do believe that the 50% discount should be triggered sooner than 10 journeys.  At the moment it gives no incentive to catch PT every day.  If it triggered after 6 or even 8 journeys, it'd reduce the number of people who decide to drive a couple of days a week.

IMHO it should be triggered immediately after 2 journeys in any one day happen. This would allow the operator to get money but at the same time discount
the fare enough to meet the goals of peak-load shifting and encouraging travel in the off-peaks. This could be on top of the off peak fare.

[ozbob]

HOWEVER, I do believe that the 50% discount should be triggered sooner than 10 journeys.  At the moment it gives no incentive to catch PT every day.  If it triggered after 6 or even 8 journeys, it'd reduce the number of people who decide to drive a couple of days a week.

good point, we had that effectively but they killed it ..  they made a decision to gouge the masses who do only 10 journeys a week hail rain or shine ...

[ozbob]

If you want folks out of peak, increase the off peak discount and improve the frequency. Simple.  15% come January, no make it 30%.  This will move folks into off peak, more room in peak, fills with more fare payers and bingo, more loot.

I stood on Oxley station this morning at looked at PID, 8.40am, next train, 9.40am.  Joke, and the Ippy is one of the main lines of the system.

This is a killer, only the patient, the carless, the community minded put up with this.  The train had a good loading, always does on the Ippy when there is not a track closure ..

[#Metro]

If you want folks out of peak, increase the off peak discount and improve the frequency. Simple.  15% come January, no make it 30%.  
This will move folks into off peak, more room in peak, fills with more fare payers and bingo, more loot.

This might be a way forward. It is simple.
Peak hour travel is not so elastic, because the alternative is to drive on congested roads.

(There might be another option- surcharge on the rocket and express buses? Used overseas in the US AIUI.
People are getting a higher quality and faster service on those buses, at the same fare.)

[Gazza]

I agree with Derwans earlier points.
I honestly see traditional periodical based discounts as somewhat of a relic. Stamping a date on a ticket was the easiest way to do this sort of incentive based system.

We have an electronic system now, so it makes more sense to just give formula based discounts for everyone where no one user group is put at an advantage over others....Save X% after Y trips. This type of discount was not practical to do on paper, but it is now, so lets do it!

We often speak about usability of public transport. An important idea is the concept of turn up and go where you don't have to think about what you are doing or plan ahead with a timetable.

To me, periodical based discounts instead of formula based ones go against this concept of simplicity.

What's easier?
-Touching on and off as normal and knowing the system will give you good discounts automatically.
-Having to go and load periodicals to your card, think about expiry dates, and do it every week/month.

I mean, by all means, have some sort of incentive for more frequent use, but I just don't see why periodicals are anywhere near the most effective way of providing this.

HOWEVER, I do believe that the 50% discount should be triggered sooner than 10 journeys.

Yeah, see, something like this.
To avoid all the current backlash all they would've need to have have done is set up the frequent user formula so it worked out cheaper than buying a monthly. But they didn't so we now have a bunch of people who cottoned on to this quick smart, and started saying "Go card is a rip off, ra ra ra, my paper ticket is cheaper".

Overall, I reckon the govt could have made things run more smoothly by holding off fare hikes for one year, and had the removal of periodicals as a substitute for a fare rise.....Then put the fares up in general as they deemed necessary.

At the moment it gives no incentive to catch PT every day. If it triggered after 6 or even 8 journeys, it'd reduce the number of people who decide to drive a couple of days a week

But see, how many people would decide to take PT only 3 or 4 days out of 5? I think people would tend to only drive, or only take PT during the week. What logical reason would someone have for breaking their daily routine on Thursday and Friday?

Looking at Gazza's comments, IMHO the goals need to be clarified. What is it that we want and why?

* PT alternative to the car
* Affordable PT
* Shifting peak load into off-peak
* Peak hour demand management tool
* Social goals - pensioners/students etc?

Others?

Ah ha! The juicy bit of the discussion.

To quote someone else, I see the top 5 reasons for public transport is to.

1) Reduce Congestion
2) Reduce Congestion
3) Reduce Congestion
4) Reduce Congestion
5) Social  Equity and Environmental reasons

So yeah, there is some benefit for those without cars and for the environment (PT Vehicles are more efficient than individual ones, but they are still fossil fuelled at present, and PT infrastructure takes up less land than what is needed for cars)
But mostly, PT is good because it is the best way to move large numbers of people quickly, and this goes with the point about "time is money" Tramtrain made. Good quality PT really does provide a boost to living standards and individual liberty because of the way it allows you to live.

So for the goals above tramtrain stated above.

* PT alternative to the car
YES!

* Affordable PT
My controversial point. It already is cheap (And for conession holders, very cheap) We're only paying about 1/4 to 1/3 of what we are getting, so it's a good deal! I don't think making it any cheaper will generate proportionally much more usage (Ever heard of elasticity of demand?) From now and into the future, the only way we'll ever see patronage growth is with better services, and they cost $.

I've used PT in American cities where its much cheaper than here, and at the same time I've used it in the UK where it costs more than here. In both cases you get what you pay for.
I'd happily pay extra for the higher quality British services to the poor US ones.
So I'd happily pay more for PT so long as there was clear improvements to match.

* Shifting peak load into off-peak * Peak hour demand management tool
An important thing to consider is that any off peak discount costs money to give. Money not collected is money that cant go towards running costs.
I really do want to see better off peak frequency, but I'm not so tight fisted as to want it for nothing. I'm realistic in my expectations, and would be more than happy to pay if it means it meets my needs.

Wanting better frequency and wanting it at a discount is a double whammy that probably won't be taken seriously sadly.

And lets be honest here, even with bigger discounts off peak, its still only a dollar or so you save, and for the "choice users" we actually want to start using these services, a teeny amount of money like that is not going to be a motivator in terms of how they choose to travel.

* Social goals - pensioners/students etc?
See above, it is cheap in relative terms already, even with current price rises (Well, rego is going up anway, so it's still going to be in the lead by a fair margin!). Plus pensioners are getting a nice little new deal too!

So yeah, to sum up, money is better spent on services than discounts.

[#Metro]

HOWEVER, I do believe that the 50% discount should be triggered sooner than 10 journeys.  At the moment it gives no incentive to catch PT every day.  
If it triggered after 6 or even 8 journeys, it'd reduce the number of people who decide to drive a couple of days a week.

Should this 10 trip + discount stay or go if the off peak discount is increased to 30% off?

This is what I am seeing:

OPTION A
* Standard GoCard fare charged for travel during the peak.
* Off peak fare has 30% discount
* Pensioners capped.
* Students 50% off- no changes to this
* 10+ trips discount abolished, incorporated into the 30% discount for the off-peak.

What do people think? Is this the way to go?

There is a variation possible:

OPTION B
* Standard GoCard fare charged for travel during the peak.
* Off peak fare has 15% discount for the next trip, 30% for any other off peak trip thereafter
* Pensioners capped.
* Students 50% off- no changes to this
* 10+ trips discount abolished, incorporated into the 30% discount for the off-peak.

[Derwan]

IMHO it should be triggered immediately after 2 journeys in any one day happen.

I've proposed something like this in the past too - but got shot down in flames.

• After 2 journeys, 50% discount for the rest of the day.
• After a total of 10 (or preferable 6 or 8 ) journeys in the week, 50% discount for the rest of the week.
• If you've already done 10 trips in the week and you do more than 2 trips in a day, the rest of the trips for that day will get both discounts (i.e. a 75% discount overall)

People saw this as complicated!  But the thing is, you don't have to think about it!  The system just works out the discounts for you - which is how it should be!  I shouldn't have to decide whether I want a weekly or which zones to get a weekly for.  I should just touch on and off as necessary and know that the more trips I do, the bigger discount I'll get!!  SIMPLE!!

[#Metro]

I've proposed something like this in the past too - but got shot down in flames.

   * After 2 journeys, 50% discount for the rest of the day.
   * After a total of 10 (or preferable 6 or 8 ) journeys in the week, 50% discount for the rest of the week.
   * If you've already done 10 trips in the week and you do more than 2 trips in a day, the rest of the trips for that day will get both discounts (i.e. a 75% discount overall)


People saw this as complicated!  But the thing is, you don't have to think about it!  The system just works out the discounts for you - which is how it should be!  I shouldn't have to decide whether I want a weekly or which zones to get a weekly for.  I should just touch on and off as necessary and know that the more trips I do, the bigger discount I'll get!!  SIMPLE!!

* After 2 journeys, 50% discount for the rest of the day.

Those journeys would likely be in the off peak. I'm starting to think that if the off-peak discount was bigger (option A or B) then this "discount on a discount"
would not be necessary as it would already be incorporated into the higher discounted off peak fare. I think people who travel in peak ought to pay peak fares, regardless
of how many trips they took previously, though

* After a total of 10 (or preferable 6 or 8 ) journeys in the week, 50% discount for the rest of the week.

Same thing here. If the off peak discount was bigger, there would also be no need for 50% discount for the rest of the week.
Option B could be modified to make the off peak weekend discount larger, but would this be necessary at all?