NorthShore / Doomben Line

[hU0N]

Rail is a no goer for cruise ships.

Apart from the people who go for a disheartened walk around the Brisbane CBD bored witless until the bus picks them up, the rest coming ashore go somewhere further afield more interesting like Surfers or Australia Zoo which are faster (and more comfortable) to get to by express coaches.

Many would find Brisbane CBD and inner areas more interesting than Surfers or Australia Zoo. It is also far closer for those time challenged stopovers or connections.

But, do these volumes of people amount to heavy rail capacities?

Precisely. Let's stop talking about what best suits cruise ship stopovers. There are currently no more than 40 train loads of stopover passengers pass through Brisbane PER YEAR. Meanwhile, Brisbane sees 12-15 train loads of passengers PER WEEK getting on a ship at the start of their journey, and another similar number getting off at the end of their journey. I realise that even this is definitely not enough to justify a heavy service, especially given the challenges in getting infrastructure out there. But that's not my point.

My point is, out of all the passengers using a Brisbane cruise ship terminal, only 5% wants to see the sights. The other 95% live here and just want something that'll take them home.

So who cares whether the 5% loves or hates the CBD or Australia Zoo or wherever else they get to. That's not the market that any transport connections would be there to serve. So long as whatever you build gets the 95% home who just want to go home, and does that efficiently, it's a winner. The other 5% who are tourists on a short term stopover, maybe they catch it, maybe not, what difference does it make? In all probability, nobody is even going to notice.

[newbris]

Rail is a no goer for cruise ships.

Apart from the people who go for a disheartened walk around the Brisbane CBD bored witless until the bus picks them up, the rest coming ashore go somewhere further afield more interesting like Surfers or Australia Zoo which are faster (and more comfortable) to get to by express coaches.

Many would find Brisbane CBD and inner areas more interesting than Surfers or Australia Zoo. It is also far closer for those time challenged stopovers or connections.

But, do these volumes of people amount to heavy rail capacities?

To address that separate point, I would strongly doubt it. I imagine a fleet of private buses charging $10 each way might meet each ship like I have experienced in other ports away from public transit. Eventually we might get a local bus transit to the air-train.

[newbris]

Rail is a no goer for cruise ships.

Apart from the people who go for a disheartened walk around the Brisbane CBD bored witless until the bus picks them up, the rest coming ashore go somewhere further afield more interesting like Surfers or Australia Zoo which are faster (and more comfortable) to get to by express coaches.

Many would find Brisbane CBD and inner areas more interesting than Surfers or Australia Zoo. It is also far closer for those time challenged stopovers or connections.

But, do these volumes of people amount to heavy rail capacities?

Precisely. Let's stop talking about what best suits cruise ship stopovers. There are currently no more than 40 train loads of stopover passengers pass through Brisbane PER YEAR. Meanwhile, Brisbane sees 12-15 train loads of passengers PER WEEK getting on a ship at the start of their journey, and another similar number getting off at the end of their journey. I realise that even this is definitely not enough to justify a heavy service, especially given the challenges in getting infrastructure out there. But that's not my point.

My point is, out of all the passengers using a Brisbane cruise ship terminal, only 5% wants to see the sights. The other 95% live here and just want something that'll take them home.

So who cares whether the 5% loves or hates the CBD or Australia Zoo or wherever else they get to. That's not the market that any transport connections would be there to serve. So long as whatever you build gets the 95% home who just want to go home, and does that efficiently, it's a winner. The other 5% who are tourists on a short term stopover, maybe they catch it, maybe not, what difference does it make? In all probability, nobody is even going to notice.

"stopovers or connections"...without changing your main point, a chunk of the people getting on the home based ships are not from Brisbane and will do tourist things at either end before driving, training or flying to/from home. Passengers and crew are spending $200million+ in Brisbane. Apart from Sydney, no other Australian city comes close.

[hU0N]

Rail is a no goer for cruise ships.

Apart from the people who go for a disheartened walk around the Brisbane CBD bored witless until the bus picks them up, the rest coming ashore go somewhere further afield more interesting like Surfers or Australia Zoo which are faster (and more comfortable) to get to by express coaches.

Many would find Brisbane CBD and inner areas more interesting than Surfers or Australia Zoo. It is also far closer for those time challenged stopovers or connections.

But, do these volumes of people amount to heavy rail capacities?

Precisely. Let's stop talking about what best suits cruise ship stopovers. There are currently no more than 40 train loads of stopover passengers pass through Brisbane PER YEAR. Meanwhile, Brisbane sees 12-15 train loads of passengers PER WEEK getting on a ship at the start of their journey, and another similar number getting off at the end of their journey. I realise that even this is definitely not enough to justify a heavy service, especially given the challenges in getting infrastructure out there. But that's not my point.

My point is, out of all the passengers using a Brisbane cruise ship terminal, only 5% wants to see the sights. The other 95% live here and just want something that'll take them home.

So who cares whether the 5% loves or hates the CBD or Australia Zoo or wherever else they get to. That's not the market that any transport connections would be there to serve. So long as whatever you build gets the 95% home who just want to go home, and does that efficiently, it's a winner. The other 5% who are tourists on a short term stopover, maybe they catch it, maybe not, what difference does it make? In all probability, nobody is even going to notice.

"stopovers or connections"...without changing your main point, a chunk of the people getting on the home based ships are not from Brisbane and will do tourist things at either end before driving, training or flying to/from home. Passengers and crew are spending $200million+ in Brisbane.

Absolutely. Good point.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I propose Maglev to Doomben, and beyond. 

Hopefully via the elevated platform at Geebung. 

[SurfRail]

Surely all of this discussion is 100% academic.

Nobody is going to fund several hundred million dollars worth of rail infrastructure to serve one ship a day at best.  Forget about it.

[verbatim9]

Something will have to happen from a Buz to a spoor off the Airport line at DFO.

[BrizCommuter]

2019) New cruise terminal gets built at Pinkenba.
2019) No justification for rail.
2021) Rail gets ripped up, loads of money spent on upgraded road.
2025) New apartments, office blocks for 40,000 workers, and entertainment district built around cruise terminal.
2025) Oops, rail line was ripped up. Development gets hourly Brisbane Transport bus service (except Sundays).
2035) Sea levels rise and Pinkenba is under water.

[hU0N]

2019) New cruise terminal gets built at Pinkenba.
2019) No justification for rail.
2021) Rail gets ripped up, loads of money spent on upgraded road.
2025) New apartments, office blocks for 40,000 workers, and entertainment district built around cruise terminal.
2025) Oops, rail line was ripped up. Development gets hourly Brisbane Transport bus service (except Sundays).
2035) Sea levels rise and Pinkenba is under water.

Hardly. The fate of the Doomben line will have little to no effect on transport to this new cruise terminal.

1. As already well established, a single cruise ship berth won't on its own generate the kind of demand to justify full time service

2. Myrtletown as a suburb is located in the middle of nowhere, over 10km from the CBD and cut off from the rest of Brisbane by swamp. In terms of distance from town and isolation, it's very similar to Nudgee Beach. Even with a cruise terminal, neither of those locations would attract much in the way of secondary development.

3. The site of the terminal is neighboured by a sewage works and the rest of the suburb zoned for noxious industry. This further reduces secondary development potential.

4. Even if all this was overcome, the Doomben line is not remotely the closest infrastructure to connect to. It's as far from North Shore Hamilton as the domestic airport is from Eagle Junction. You'd be looking at half a billion dollars just for a single track. Whether it's full heavy rail, feeder bus or a signpost pointing to a track in the grass, whatever type of transport service that eventually becomes necessary, you'd run it out of one of the airport stations. No question about it.

In short, if the Doomben line doesn't stack up on its own, it won't be saved by the development of a cruise berth at Myrtletown. It would be insane if it was.

[SteelPan]

Never really understand, why people join....wait for it...... "Back on Track" [repeat  s-l-o-w-l-y  THREE times] and come out against proposals for rail network expansion! I mean, seriously, what percentage of rail expansion proposals are ever going to see the light of day in Qld? [1%?]

There's plenty of NON rail stuff to keep the no-nannies happy, heck they can go for work for the State Govt, they like doing nothing pro-rail as much as possible - let's get Back on Track!!!!!

[SurfRail]

^ Because there is a difference between arguing for intelligent investment in the rail network that will actually pay off, and being a massive foamer. 

People who can't grasp the distinction don't make very good advocates.

[SteelPan]

Hey, nice try, but urban rail never "pays off" - it's a service, which has been hijacked by anti-rail people, who drag out that old chestnut, the good 'ol "pay off" dog, EACH and EVERY time, a real rail advocate, proposes actually advancing the rail system!

Show me where any road project, is actually ever built, on the basis of the SAME "pay off" modelling forced always onto rail???

[SurfRail]

This kind of thinking has seen Australia littered with railways that should never have been built while the railways that should have been built were ignored.

Repeat:

1. Economics apply to railways.

2. Railways cost money to build and run and need to justify their existence like anything else expensive.

3. Railways have a specific job to do other than being fun for enthusiasts.

Keeping these in mind encourages one to support things that stack up and are of benefit to the public at large, and not chase down boondoggles.

If you can't see that there is a world of difference between suggesting reopening and extending a line through an industrial wasteland to serve at best one ship per day, and a multitude of better investments like in-cab signalling, track amplifications, open LX removals and sensible extensions to where people actually live and work, that's fine.  More power to you.  But don't pretend for a minute that you have a monopoly on what this group is for, or should be about.

[nathandavid88]

Precisely. Let's stop talking about what best suits cruise ship stopovers. There are currently no more than 40 train loads of stopover passengers pass through Brisbane PER YEAR. Meanwhile, Brisbane sees 12-15 train loads of passengers PER WEEK getting on a ship at the start of their journey, and another similar number getting off at the end of their journey. I realise that even this is definitely not enough to justify a heavy service, especially given the challenges in getting infrastructure out there. But that's not my point.

My point is, out of all the passengers using a Brisbane cruise ship terminal, only 5% wants to see the sights. The other 95% live here and just want something that'll take them home.

So who cares whether the 5% loves or hates the CBD or Australia Zoo or wherever else they get to. That's not the market that any transport connections would be there to serve. So long as whatever you build gets the 95% home who just want to go home, and does that efficiently, it's a winner. The other 5% who are tourists on a short term stopover, maybe they catch it, maybe not, what difference does it make? In all probability, nobody is even going to notice.

One mistake that is being made on this thread is discounting the stopover passengers because of that number being so low. The reason that so few larger ships stop in Brisbane is simply because Brisbane doesn't have a dedicated terminal to accommodate them – they have to use the Port of Brisbane's Multi-user terminal, where they have to share space with the bulk cargo ships. Cruise companies have gone on the record saying that Brisbane is a desirable stop over location on these tours, but it's simply the lack of facilities that stops them coming.

The Luggage Point terminal, as a dedicated replacement to the multi-user terminal, will allow these larger ships the ability to stop over in Brisbane more often than would have otherwise been possible. This could result in an explosion of stop over visitors to Brisbane, relative to current numbers. We could even see longer, overnight stops in Brisbane. As I see it, this is one of the two main drivers in the development of a Luggage Point terminal, with the other being as a second home port to compliment Portside Hamilton. The local cruise industry has been steadily increasing since Portside was built (Brisbane being the best located home port location for cruises to New Caledonia, Fiji, Solomon Is, etc probably helps) and while it doesn't necessarily require ships larger than what can dock at Hamilton, there is sufficient demand for additional ships leaving from Brisbane, and being a single berth terminal there is a limit to the number of ships Portside can accommodate, with the PoB Multi-user terminal not having the facilities to operate as anything more than a stop over port.

In terms of providing transport to Luggage Point, I agree that a train line extension to Luggage Point is overkill for the numbers and types of people that the terminal will receive – a lot of the stop over traffic will be accommodated through booked tourist coaches for example. For people leaving on/returning from a tour at Luggage Point, I think a dedicated bus connection a la Melbourne Airport's Skybus is probably the way to go. If you'll let me foam a little, I'd love to see "Cruisebuses" leaving from a terminal at a new Skygate Station (that just costs a standard fare to access). From there, buses could just skirt the airport along the relatively attractive Lomandra Drive and Pandanus Avenue, rather than going through the desolation that is Kingsford Smith Drive (East) and Bancroft Road.   

[QLDBUS]

why isn't there already a Airport village station on the Airport Line?

[nathandavid88]

I can only imagine it was a chicken and egg scenario, as it would have been a station to nowhere when built.

[red dragin]

why isn't there already a Airport village station on the Airport Line?

The original design saw the Toombul Shopping Centre being rebuilt as a Hotel & Casino, with its own station built above the floodable car park with a direct walkway to the Hotel.

There was no expectations for the Airport Village to have been built if I recall. I borrowed the full plan from the Nundah Library back in the day, reading it between school and going home whilst hanging around my Dad's work (such an exciting childhood!)

[dancingmongoose]

why isn't there already a Airport village station on the Airport Line?

The original design saw the Toombul Shopping Centre being rebuilt as a Hotel & Casino, with its own station built above the floodable car park with a direct walkway to the Hotel.

There was no expectations for the Airport Village to have been built if I recall. I borrowed the full plan from the Nundah Library back in the day, reading it between school and going home whilst hanging around my Dad's work (such an exciting childhood!)

There's actually an Airport Village station marked in the UBD as 'Future station'. So I'd say it's been planned somewhere by someone even if it wasn't in the initial plans. The UBD also shows the GC expansion to Coolangatta Airport.

[STB]

why isn't there already a Airport village station on the Airport Line?

The original design saw the Toombul Shopping Centre being rebuilt as a Hotel & Casino, with its own station built above the floodable car park with a direct walkway to the Hotel.

There was no expectations for the Airport Village to have been built if I recall. I borrowed the full plan from the Nundah Library back in the day, reading it between school and going home whilst hanging around my Dad's work (such an exciting childhood!)

There's actually an Airport Village station marked in the UBD as 'Future station'. So I'd say it's been planned somewhere by someone even if it wasn't in the initial plans. The UBD also shows the GC expansion to Coolangatta Airport.

That reminds me...

There was an idea hatched within TL nearly a decade ago (2007/08) of extending the Doomben line to Eagle Farm (with Eagle Farm station relocated further east), and a bus-rail interchange at Eagle Farm with high frequency buses running between Airport Village and Hamilton Northshore.

By the sounds of things the idea stayed just that, an idea.

[ozbob]

Queensland is the home of planning!   Very little gets translated to reality ... the fantasy network is amazing!

Gridlock and transport failure looms ... we need more plans!

[verbatim9]

Plans with HD fly through animations.

[nathandavid88]

That reminds me...

There was an idea hatched within TL nearly a decade ago (2007/08) of extending the Doomben line to Eagle Farm (with Eagle Farm station relocated further east), and a bus-rail interchange at Eagle Farm with high frequency buses running between Airport Village and Hamilton Northshore.

By the sounds of things the idea stayed just that, an idea.

That's an interesting sounding plan... I wonder whether that idea could be revived? I would look at basing it around the old Eagle Farm Station, which if memory serves me is within the extent of the line which is electrified, and rebuilt from there. The biggest logistical issue that I can see is that the roads around that area are pretty confusing, and road access into the Northshore area from the Eastern side is a rather convoluted trek.

[red dragin]

Gridlock and transport failure looms ... we need more plans!

Need something to read whilst stuck in traffic.

[Gazza]

Hey, nice try, but urban rail never "pays off" - it's a service, which has been hijacked by anti-rail people, who drag out that old chestnut, the good 'ol "pay off" dog, EACH and EVERY time, a real rail advocate, proposes actually advancing the rail system!

Show me where any road project, is actually ever built, on the basis of the SAME "pay off" modelling forced always onto rail???

Rail doesn't generally pay off in direct running costs, but it does have an overall positive cost benefit ratio (Economic improvement, reduced traffic congestion, increased land value, reduced pollution)

Well, it should anyway.....All infrastructure should.

But just because something is rail doesn't mean it magically is going to have a positive cost benefit ratio.

For example, imagine if someone proposed a subway system for Gympie....An extreme example, but it proves the point that some proposals for rail are stupid and foamy and would be 95% empty if built and couldn't be paid for.

So we can establish that certain railway line ideas are a waste of money and in any case, the state only has a limited budget.

Stuff like
-Sunshine coast duplication
-Gold coast light rail to cooloongatta
-CRR
-Camcos
-Trouts Rd line
-Springfield to redbank plains
-Cleveland duplication

BIG YEP....that should keep us going for a while

-Rail to some cruise ship terminal that won't even get that busy....nah.

I'm a bit sick of  being told I should blindly support any rail idea.

"You can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want"

[STB]

That reminds me...

There was an idea hatched within TL nearly a decade ago (2007/08) of extending the Doomben line to Eagle Farm (with Eagle Farm station relocated further east), and a bus-rail interchange at Eagle Farm with high frequency buses running between Airport Village and Hamilton Northshore.

By the sounds of things the idea stayed just that, an idea.

That's an interesting sounding plan... I wonder whether that idea could be revived? I would look at basing it around the old Eagle Farm Station, which if memory serves me is within the extent of the line which is electrified, and rebuilt from there. The biggest logistical issue that I can see is that the roads around that area are pretty confusing, and road access into the Northshore area from the Eastern side is a rather convoluted trek.

It was based around Schneider Road which was supposed to be extended to and link in with Airport Village from the south.

[QLDBUS]

Well already a lot of the bigger Carnival cruise ships Port at the Port of Beisbane anyways and there doing just fine and already how many people use public transport to get to port side to catch there cruise

[QLDBUS]

And any cruise ships aren't like buses they don't come every  hour and everyday they come at all different times of the day and week and also they depend on the tide times which can be at all different times of the day so if you were to build a train line out to the new cruise ship terminal trains wouldn't be able to have fixed times anyways

[verbatim9]

I believe in Public Transport investment to ensure a cheap alternative to move throughout the city no matter what part, being Airports, Ports, Cruise Terminals, Beaches and National Parks. At the moment the smaller cruise ships that dock at Hamilton have access to the Ferries/Cats and Busses (300). Royal Carribean and Carnival are planning to make a base here, so sometimes 2 ships at a time per day which can equate up to 6000 people on full ships. They will need to restock, the workers will need to get into town etc.....

[Gazza]

So....even if 6000 people turn up, why couldn't that be handled with buses? Consider the major events at certain locations in SEQ that operate without walk up rail access.

[verbatim9]

So....even if 6000 people turn up, why couldn't that be handled with buses? Consider the major events at certain locations in SEQ that operate without walk up rail access.

Have mentioned a Buz servicing the area. Airport and New Cruise Terminal. Terminating and Originating at the Cruise Terminal then heading into the City via Domestic, International, DFO and Airport link, Northern Busway. A Buz is the minimum I would accept especially being tourism area. You need to show good example. I would like to think someone getting off at the ship and catching a Buz or Train/LRT then going home and saying "Brisbane has really good PT, you can get around fast and efficiently, without a need of private vehicle within a 100 km radius from 5am until midnight".

[SurfRail]

I can think of a lot of higher priorities.

[verbatim9]

The terminal is no doubt 18months - 2 years away probably open with the new Kingsford Smith widening!? So can easily be put on the agenda. A competing Buz with the train by 2018 Comm Games would be appropriate.

[SurfRail]

More appropriate than one to Centenary?  Albany Creek?  Yeronga?  Bulimba?  Gold Coast north of Brisbane Road?  Bundall Road?  David Low Way?  None of these corridors just run through industrial estates.

[#Metro]

We cannot do everything. It is just not possible.
Nor should we attempt to.

Action comes from the narrowing of focus. Concentrating efforts/resources in priority areas.

I often think it would be helpful if we had some common standard against which to judge competing policies against.

FWIW, just have a well-designed road so that the Brisbane Airport shuttle bus can go from the new Cruise terminal, to the Airport terminals  (probably a good idea anyway, some pax may be coming by air) and then to DFO. I would like to see the T-bus extended to a busway station or Toombul, they could charge for that section.

[techblitz]

there was a cruise ship docked at portside today....quite a site
Passengers seem to get by just fine with the 300/citycat combo for access to the city.....about 40-50 tourists boarded the 8pm inbound 300.
Pity about the that crappy hourly inbound evening frequency of this route..... racecourse rd is easily as packed as oxford st bulimba fri-sat nights....

[verbatim9]

LNP want a Glider on that route. Hopefully Hamilton Northshore Glider out to the new Cruise Terminal via Hamilton Northshore and Portside.

[dancingmongoose]

Drove home yesterday and noticed two things

• There is a red stop board at the eastern end of the Eagle Farm Airport platform.
• The Hamilton branch is fenced off once it cross KSD

Hope they don't start ripping up tracks beyond Eagle Farm, it's a good location for Steam Train Sunday

[red dragin]

The fence seems to relate to the building demolition for the KSD widening.

[petey3801]

Pinkenba is now regarded as a low use line, meaning an inspection has to be conducted 96hrs in advance of any train running.

[red dragin]

Tracks on southern side of KSD all gone, as well as signals, stop blocks, speed signs.

On the northern side there is about 25m missing from the level crossing toward the Doomben Junction.