NorthShore / Doomben Line

[ozbob]

From the City North News 25th November pages 1 and 5

Way off track

Front page




Page 5

We tried ...

[colinw]

My fear is that without extension, the Doomben line struggles for a reason to exist, and will ultimately wither and die.

True, we have seen some improvement to a basic half hourly weekday service, but the line is still a Carlingford style basket case.

[ozbob]

I think there is around half dozen people concerned with rail at TMR, probably at least a 1000 plus with roads.

Little wonder that rail languishes in Queensland.  They are setting up a serious transport deficit in the years to come.

Nothing quite as dumb as a knot* of Queenslanders ..

*knot - a collective term for a group of toads ...

[ozbob]

My fear is that without extension, the Doomben line struggles for a reason to exist, and will ultimately wither and die.

True, we have seen some improvement to a basic half hourly weekday service, but the line is still a Carlingford style basket case.

Buses could feed it from Hamilton.  But BCC KSD design sort of excludes that of course at present.  They do not care for the longer term damage they are doing in terms of transport failure it appears.

Quirk et al. are seriously exposed on this, and development generally.  The bus network failure is another issue.

They will struggle in this coming election.

Legacy Way bus connection failure shows the contempt they really treat the community.  This is but another.

[hU0N]

I think it's scandalous that the road upgrade seems to be the only plan for transport to and from Hamilton Northshore. But I think it needs to be acknowledged that the rail journey to Doomben to Central is timetabled at 24min, so presumably about 26min to a future Hamilton station; which compares very unfavourably with driving from the general vicinity of a future station (Google Maps gives 22min in traffic), and is even worse compared to the bus to Central, timetabled at just 18min.

Obviously this is because the bus is very direct and benefits from some limited bus priority, while the train is quite indirect (having been designed originally more as a freight railway than as a commuter one) and is limited by constrained train paths in the city tunnels.

I hate to see good infrastructure go to waste as much as anyone, but compared to spending some of the money on improvements to the bus route (be that full length bus lanes, improved bus priority, light rail, in fact just about anything), I can't help but think that extending the rail would be a second best option.

That said, if the rail line was to be extended, I would take it over KSD, swing east and run roughly along Curtin Ave, under the gateway and into the existing turnaround at Pinkenba, near Farrar Street, with a view to all this riverside land ultimately being subject to high density transport oriented urban renewal.

[ozbob]

Bus takes up to 50 minutes plus at peak.  Direct observations.

The traffic will only get worse.  Absolutely scandalous to not use the class A ROW for maximum benefit.  It is dumb dumb urban and transport planning. 

It might well end up a light rail /electric bus corridor come the enlightenment.

[colinw]

Yep, the rail is indirect, but it is consistent in journey time and faster than the bus service.  It also offers excellent connectivity at Eagle Jct including to the airport.

I love hUON's suggestion of continuing along the waterfront / future urban renewal area.  For now I'd be content with corridor preservation, and trust that at the very least a rail corridor from Doomben to a future Northshore site will be retained (as indeed it appears to be on maps, although not marked as such).

Going back to the original proposal, referenced above - Paul Lucas talked a good game, but he didn't deliver much. In particular he oversaw that horrid bit of bastardry when the next stage of North Coast Line duplication to Landsborough was cancelled after the LNP won the electorate it passes through.

[ozbob]

The fact that Quirk et al. signed the KSD contract secretly a week ago speaks volumes for them hey?

Have not got real courage IMHO.

We might have a repeat of EWLink (Melbourne's basket case) on our hands ...  lol

[dancingmongoose]

I have a map with the corridor and station position marked. Not sure where I got it

[ozbob]

^ that was from the UDA scheme.  Is referenced somewhere in this thread or link.

Thanks.  It was a serious option.  There isn't any real will in Queensland to do much other than roads.  It is going to cost big time down the track sadly. 

[ozbob]

[dancingmongoose]

Here's what I would like to see:

• Doomben line extended to Hamilton with 2 new stations
• Cutting under KSD
• New station and Park 'n' Ride at KSD (green box). PnR connected to station via walkway along rail corridor. Station would be below ground level in the cutting but not covered.
• The line then continues fully underground (to minimise surface disruptions) to one of three stations
  
  
  
  • A station connecting to Bretts Wharf ferry terminal
  • A more central station which could potentially be connected to a new ferry terminal
  • A station connection to Northshore ferry terminal

This would help take cars off KSD by providing a PnR and a station with easy connection to buses, and another station in a central activity hub of Hamilton.

Now excuse me while I wipe off the foam from around my mouth

[Gazza]

I think the middle option is best, but surely elevating it, like Springfield, would be cheaper.

[James]

Just elevate it. They elevate the SkyTrain in Vancouver around high rises and nobody has died. And their trains run every 3 minutes in both directions! (Rather than every 15 mins at best like we'd see on the Doomben/Hamilton branch).

Sadly I think this mess with KSD is beyond hope. Nobody is worth voting for in the upcoming election, I'm just hoping that given I'm out of the country that hopefully the QEC won't notice and won't bother to bug me to vote.

[petey3801]

Random off-(current)-topic note: The points for the loop at Ascot were removed last weekend.

[ozbob]

Thanks for the update.

[colinw]

Random off-(current)-topic note: The points for the loop at Ascot were removed last weekend.

On current trajectory, I am going to predict that if in a few years you'll be posting that the points for the branch were removed at Eagle Junction on the weekend.

[colinw]

I think the middle option is best, but surely elevating it, like Springfield, would be cheaper.

Trench option would have been quite a steep downgrade to get under, as it is already downhill from Doomben to the Coldstores.  Plus it would have required supporting works in the KSD upgrade.

The only viable option now the KSD abomination is proceeding is to put it on viaduct, climbing from Doomben the whole way.

On current trends, we're more likely to get a MagLev Hoverbus to Yarrabilba via Chamber's Flat

[HappyTrainGuy]

^ that was from the UDA scheme.  Is referenced somewhere in this thread or link.

Thanks.  It was a serious option.  There isn't any real will in Queensland to do much other than roads.  It is going to cost big time down the track sadly.

Which were given back to the BCC instead of state planning IIRC.

[petey3801]

Random off-(current)-topic note: The points for the loop at Ascot were removed last weekend.

On current trajectory, I am going to predict that if in a few years you'll be posting that the points for the branch were removed at Eagle Junction on the weekend.

Heh, would not surprise me at all.

[verbatim9]

Cruise ship terminal leads to Buz or dual electric track to Myrtletown?

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbanes-new-100m-cruise-ship-terminal-to-go-to-cabinet-20160107-gm1i28.html#ixzz3wbqzDLEx

[#Metro]

I don't think the rail line reaches that far. Personally, I think a pedestrian tunnel or similar under Brisbane Airport runway would do the trick. The bus service in that area is horrible.

[verbatim9]

It's all swamp and sinking land. Is it possible to have a Under ground travelator to the Air train. Better off looking at duplication of the Doomben line have express from Doomben to the terminal the same way air train does from eagle junction. Cruise passengers are pretty fussy I can't seem the catching a Buz or travelator under the runway to the Air train

[hU0N]

Assuming you could work out the engineering, you'd be better off extending the airtrain. Gives direct rail connection to the airport and Gold Coast. Also would be a trip time to city of just about 30m vs a bit over 40m via Doomben.

Also, the corridor between Myrtletown and Domestic terminal would, by necessity be largely in ground that has already been dewatered and stabilised. The corridor to Doomben would largely run through existing tidal swamps. So there's probably no engineering disadvantage to extending the airport line.

[verbatim9]

Assuming you could work out the engineering, you'd be better off extending the airtrain. Gives direct rail connection to the airport and Gold Coast. Also would be a trip time to city of just about 30m vs a bit over 40m via Doomben.

Also, the corridor between Myrtletown and Domestic terminal would, by necessity be largely in ground that has already been dewatered and stabilised. The corridor to Doomben would largely run through existing tidal swamps. So there's probably no engineering disadvantage to extending the airport line.

Yeah it would be good to have the Air train extension investigated. Instead of extension an elevated branch spoor via DFO, Airport park then express to Myrtletown (New mega Brisbane Cruise terminal.) I mention the spoor line as from what I can see there is already infrastructure in place to duplicate the line from Eagle Junction/Toombul to DFO.

[James]

I can see some significant problems in terms of the engineering of it. Given the potential space constraints at the Brisbane Domestic Terminal (the eventual plan there is to have the domestic terminal expanding around to the north and west) and the grades required to sink a rail line which is initially elevated, I think there'd be big issues with extending the line to the new cruise terminal. While the soil is stable, I suspect it would become less stable as you went down due to the proximity of the water in the area.

Speaking in terms of transit planning, cruise terminals also have very poor demand profiles. The Myrtletown terminal, assuming it services 1 ship/day (and that's being generous), would generate around 3000 trips at the most and would exist at two times of day - 8-10am and 4-6pm, with demand being zero at other times. No, literally zero - there is nothing else at Myrtletown! It is also a long way to go too, and by the sounds of things it won't be tied in with high-density development (a good thing). As an inventive solution, perhaps you could run feeder buses across BAC land/runways to feed into the Domestic terminal? A pedestrian tunnel might be a bit much.

Extending the Doomben line to Northshore Hamilton is a much higher priority, due to the amount of high-density housing in the area, not the cruise ship terminal.

[SurfRail]

Rail is a no goer for cruise ships.

Apart from the people who go for a disheartened walk around the Brisbane CBD bored witless until the bus picks them up, the rest coming ashore go somewhere further afield more interesting like Surfers or Australia Zoo which are faster (and more comfortable) to get to by express coaches.

[verbatim9]

Rail is a no goer for cruise ships.

Apart from the people who go for a disheartened walk around the Brisbane CBD bored witless until the bus picks them up, the rest coming ashore go somewhere further afield more interesting like Surfers or Australia Zoo which are faster (and more comfortable) to get to by express coaches.

Convert the Doomben line to light rail. There is light rail running to Port Melbourne. There is a train running to Outer Harbour (Adl) Cruise Freight terminal. There will be more than passengers needing that service at BNE Airport precinct business park and Myrtletown. There will be workers in security customs, immigration etc... PT in form of light rail or heavy can further proof the precinct.

[SurfRail]

^ Neither of those corridors is comparable to Myrtletown even remotely.

[hU0N]

Rail is a no goer for cruise ships.

Apart from the people who go for a disheartened walk around the Brisbane CBD bored witless until the bus picks them up, the rest coming ashore go somewhere further afield more interesting like Surfers or Australia Zoo which are faster (and more comfortable) to get to by express coaches.

Convert the Doomben line to light rail. There is light rail running to Port Melbourne. There is a train running to Outer Harbour (Adl) Cruise Freight terminal. There will be more than passengers needing that service at BNE Airport precinct business park and Myrtletown. There will be workers in security customs, immigration etc... PT in form of light rail or heavy can further proof the precinct.

Two points.

Firstly, according to published timetables, around 360 cruise ship services are scheduled to dock in Brisbane in 2016/2017. Of these, less than 40 are through running. For the remainder, Brisbane is either the first port of call, the last port of call, or both the first and last port of call.

Point is, most people traveling to a Brisbane cruise ship terminal (whether existing or proposed) by necessity fall into one of two categories, a) people who are traveling to the ship from home or other accommodation, or b) people who are transfering between the ship and another mode of long distance transport, ie. coach, train or plane.

In this regard, transport services to a cruise terminal would serve much the same purpose as transport services to the airport. Nobody says that airtrain is useless because all the best tourist attractions are too far away for stop-over fliers to access by train.

Second point, connecting through Doomben. As the crow flies, Doomben is as far from Myrtletown as it is from Central.  So any extension from Doomben would be a project of the same magnitude as the Moreton Bay Rail Link, running more than half it's length through a swamp that is somewhat underwater at high tide. Moreover, once you get to Doomben, the corridor into the city is routed horribly. It's rather slow and indirect, and is (outside of peak hour) about 50% slower than the parallel bus route. And this doesn't change whether it's light or heavy rail.

In short, I believe that public transport to a Brisbane Cruise Terminal would be more useful than it initially seems because Brisbane is generally a terminal port, still this demand would not exceed 3000 persons per day. At this level of demand, an extension from Doomben is too far, too structurally complex and ultimately delivers too poor of a solution to be worthwhile. Meanwhile an airtrain extension is about 60% shorter, of equivalent, but different structural complexity, and delivers a superior product, namely sub 30 min travel to the two destinations most useful to the predominant type of cruise passenger in Brisbane, the airport and the coach/train hub station.

Not sure if there is enough there to justify an airtrain extension, but one thing is for certain, whatever merit an airtrain extension has, a Doomben extension has less.

[verbatim9]

Good points there

[#Metro]

I propose Maglev to Doomben, and beyond. 

I reckon they should just build a road, and run the Brisbane Airport T-bus to it. Road would have to be designed in such a way that it would work as a simple extension of the current T-bus service. This would also work well for Taxi etc.

Problem with connection to Brisbane Airport is that there is the Airtrain fee, which is much higher than for catching a Doomben train.

Either way you look at it, the options are not that great.

[verbatim9]

Will T bus cooperate? At the moment its Free. Is the cruise terminal on Brisbane Airport land? I beleive that T bus runs only on Brisbane Airport land. Other areas beyond that are usually state or council responsibility to provide services. How about a Buz to compete with Air train and have it run to the cruise terminal then Airport via the Northern bus way and Airport link via DFO and Cruise Terminal. That way people have a cheaper option than the train.

[#Metro]

Well, negotiate. Work something out. In any case, a road has to be built. Buses run on roads, so that's the most obvious solution.

[hU0N]

Problem with running a bus via the airport is airtrain. They have an agreement with govt to recover 100% opex from the fare box and not ask for a subsidy. In return the govt agreed not to allow any subsidised services to compete.

If you were to run a parallel bus, you'd have to negotiate either a fare subsidy on airtrain to give it fare parity with any bus, or else the bus would need to ruin subsidy free with a fare in the $15-$20 range. Under either of those conditions, would anyone prefer the bus to the train?

Back on topic, I like the T-bus idea.

[verbatim9]

In Sydney the busses run without a surcharge parrallel to the train. Melbourne too a PTV bus runs to compete with sky bus. Just takes good governance and negotiation. We need good governance one that can negotiate for the benefit of people and business.

[#Metro]

There is still a cloud over whether Brisbane Transport can run buses to / through the Airport precinct.

[newbris]

Rail is a no goer for cruise ships.

Apart from the people who go for a disheartened walk around the Brisbane CBD bored witless until the bus picks them up, the rest coming ashore go somewhere further afield more interesting like Surfers or Australia Zoo which are faster (and more comfortable) to get to by express coaches.

Many would find Brisbane CBD and inner areas more interesting than Surfers or Australia Zoo. It is also far closer for those time challenged stopovers or connections.

[newbris]

Will T bus cooperate? At the moment its Free. Is the cruise terminal on Brisbane Airport land? I beleive that T bus runs only on Brisbane Airport land. Other areas beyond that are usually state or council responsibility to provide services. How about a Buz to compete with Air train and have it run to the cruise terminal then Airport via the Northern bus way and Airport link via DFO and Cruise Terminal. That way people have a cheaper option than the train.

It's port of brisbane owned land I think which I why they are the leading the cruise terminal project.

I wonder if a discount train fare could somehow be applied to people transferring to/from the air train via the cruise terminal.

[Gazza]

Rail is a no goer for cruise ships.

Apart from the people who go for a disheartened walk around the Brisbane CBD bored witless until the bus picks them up, the rest coming ashore go somewhere further afield more interesting like Surfers or Australia Zoo which are faster (and more comfortable) to get to by express coaches.

Many would find Brisbane CBD and inner areas more interesting than Surfers or Australia Zoo. It is also far closer for those time challenged stopovers or connections.

But, do these volumes of people amount to heavy rail capacities?