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Offline #Metro

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Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« on: October 06, 2010, 03:56:49 PM »
Quote
Night flight? Guess you'll be catching a cab then
Tony Moore
October 6, 2010 - 3:45PM


There are 33 flights bringing tourists into Brisbane Airport after 8pm tonight but there is no public transport to meet them.

Now Queensland's peak tourism organisation says Brisbane is not meeting its obligation to international tourists.

The only train services to Brisbane Airport - to both the domestic and international terminal - are provided by private company Airtrain.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/night-flight-guess-youll-be-catching-a-cab-then-20101006-167g0.html
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 04:30:33 PM by ozbob »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2010, 04:28:43 PM »
Media Release 17 September 2010

SEQ: Airtrain needs an improved service

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters calls on the operator of Airtrain to improve its basic service level.

"Currently, the Airtrain cuts back to a 30 minute frequency between 9:58am and 3:28pm on a weekday, departing the Domestic Terminal.  There is a need for the 15 minute frequency to run right through between the AM and PM peaks and to also fill in the gap between 5:00pm and 5:28pm.  There is also a need to extend the operating hours to at least 11pm."

"There are only a handful of services required to plug the gaps now, with a view to give the service a consistent clock face timetable."

"It is obvious that a number of people who arrive at the airport would use the train but don't due to the unacceptable 29 minute wait that can be endured. Proper utilisation of the Airtrain would go a long way in relieving the constant road congestion and cost impacts on the community. In terms of comparable global rail airport services, Brisbane is presently a transport back-water (1)."

Reference:

1.  http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/09/take-me-to-airport-by-car.html

Robert Dow
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2010, 04:30:05 PM »
From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Night flight? Guess you'll be catching a cab then

Quote
Night flight? Guess you'll be catching a cab then
Tony Moore
October 6, 2010 - 3:45PM

There are 33 flights bringing tourists into Brisbane Airport after 8pm tonight but there is no public transport to meet them.

Now Queensland's peak tourism organisation says Brisbane is not meeting its obligation to international tourists.

The only train services to and from Brisbane Airport - for both the domestic and international terminals - are provided by private company Airtrain.

The last city-bound service departs the domestic terminal at 8pm.

brisbanetimes.com.au this morning reported on rubbish-filled carriages experienced on Airtrain and received dozens of comments - many of them complaining about the early finishing time of services.

In Sydney, the private railway - known as Sydney's Airport Link - runs trains into the city heart until 12.41am.

And in Melbourne, the Skybus runs trains between the city's main station at Spencer Street and the airport 24 hours a day, seven days week.

There are no bus services to Brisbane Airport, TransLink confirmed.

Daniel Gschwind, CEO of the Queensland Tourism Industry Council, said he was surprised to learn there were no buses at all and no trains after 8pm.

"The first point of contact with a destination is often the transport facilities from an airport, whether that is a taxi, or a coach or a train," Mr Gschwind said.

"And I think we need that we need to make a good impression. It really is an experience-shaping moment.

"I think it would be highly preferable to have trains available whenever a plane arrives. I think that is clearly the desirable situation and what most Australian expect when they arrive in a destination overseas."

He said questions should be asked.

"I am quite certain it is not meeting the expectations of international travellers. I think that is a fair comment."

Airtrain CEO Chris Basche has not responded to questions from brisbanetimes.com.au.

Rail: Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said it was critical Brisbane improved its rail links to the airport because the rest of the rail network operated until after midnight.

"A lot of flights arrive after 8pm and at the moment if you miss that last train you really can't rely on the rail connections," Mr Dow said.

"So we think that the Airtrain services should be expanded."

Mr Dow said he understood there had been talks about timetable changes, including debate about noise levels.

"However electric trains, particularly the new electric trains, which run on the Airtrain network are extremely quiet."

Airtrain started in 2001 after the rail link to Brisbane Airport was built for $200 million.

The 33 flights arriving after 8pm tonight include 28 domestic flights, with two from all capital cities and from Maroochydore, Roma, Gladstone, Rockhampton, Emerald, Alice Springs and Cairns.

At the international airport there are five overseas flights arriving including from Fiji and Malaysia.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 07:14:21 AM »
Sent to all outlets:

7th October 2010

Greetings,

Just to confirm what a wasted opportunity the railway line to Brisbane Airport is, consider these comparable global train frequencies.

(Frequencies are weekday midday frequencies to CBD from Airport).

Top of the list as the worst is Brisbane.  Some claim to mediocrity is it not?  Billions of dollars on road solutions when a few hundred million on the railway line would have been the go. And still the road congestion and chaos will remain despite the billions on roads.

It is little wonder that the public is giving feedback that is very condemning of the present rail service.

Brisbane - 2 trains/hour
Sydney - 6 trains/hour
London Heathrow (T123) - 18 trains/hour (12 trains/hour London Underground, 4 trains/hour Heathrow Express, 2 trains/hour Heathrow Connect)
London Gatwick - 11 trains/hour
London City - 8 trains/hour
Berlin Schonefeld - 6 trains/hour
Madrid Barajas - 8 trains/hour
Hong Kong - 5 trains/hour
Paris CDG - 8 trains/hour
Tokyo Narita - 12 trains/hour (via 2 train companies)
Tokyo Haneda - 16 trains/hour (via 2 train companies)
Nurenberg - 9 trains/hour (much more frequent service, and 1/4 the population of Brisbane)
Hamburg - 6 trains/hour
Newcastle (UK) - 5 trains/hour (x 2.5 more frequent service, and less than half the population of Brisbane)
Vancouver - 6 trains/hour
Copenhagen - 8 trains/hour
Dubai - 8 trains/hour
Bangkok - 6 trains/hour
Naha - 6 trains/hour (Naha has just 1/6 of the population of Brisbane)
Oslo - 6 trains/hour (x2.5 more passengers, despite half the population)
Lyon - 4 trains/hour

As Brisbane apparently will go paperless in January 2011 arrangements for tourists using Brisbane's
public transport needs to be sorted and fast in my opinion.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org


==================================

Quote
Media Release 17 September 2010

SEQ: Airtrain needs an improved service

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters calls on the operator of Airtrain to improve its basic service level.

"Currently, the Airtrain cuts back to a 30 minute frequency between 9:58am and 3:28pm on a weekday, departing the Domestic Terminal.  There is a need for the 15 minute frequency to run right through between the AM and PM peaks and to also fill in the gap between 5:00pm and 5:28pm.  There is also a need to extend the operating hours to at least 11pm."

"There are only a handful of services required to plug the gaps now, with a view to give the service a consistent clock face timetable."

"It is obvious that a number of people who arrive at the airport would use the train but don't due to the unacceptable 29 minute wait that can be endured. Proper utilisation of the Airtrain would go a long way in relieving the constant road congestion and cost impacts on the community. In terms of comparable global rail airport services, Brisbane is presently a transport back-water (1)."

Reference:

1.  http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/09/take-me-to-airport-by-car.html

Robert Dow
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2010, 07:27:16 AM »
Breakfast announcer Spencer Howson 612 ABC Brisbane just conducted a short interview on Airtrain.

Thanks for the interest 612!

 :-t
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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 08:40:57 AM »
Breakfast with Spencer Howson 612 ABC Brisbane, Interview: click here!

Quote
Time to dump the Airtrain curfew, says public transport campaigner

07 October 2010 , 9:38 AM by Spencer Howson | Comments (0)

A 'wasted opportunity' - that's how Brisbane's air train service is being described this morning.

With only two trains an hour during non-peak times and no services after 8pm at night, our airtrain service is billed as one of the worst airport public transport solutions in the world.

But let's look at the night services - why do they stop at 8pm? Can you remember the negotiations that went on about this before 2001 when the Airtrain service started?

The message from community consultations was that the noise from trains at night would be too disruptive.

However, Robert Dow from rail advocacy group Rail Back on Track says that's no longer a valid argument:
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:56:30 AM by ozbob »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2010, 09:14:01 AM »
Quote
The whole airport experience is very expensive, recently we had to pick up the granddaughter who was arriving from Darwin, the plane was 1 hr late and it cost us $26 for parking. Its all about money the greed is just getting out of hands the Air train costs $5.80 from Beenleigh to the City and then costs $15 to carry on to the airport. Total rip off. When you have 5 people traveling to the airport its cheaper to drive and park long term for 1 week. Maybe more people would catch the train if the fares were cheaper.
acoop | Brisbane - October 08, 2010, 8:56AM

Group ticketing fares and discounts are required. It's basic economics 101!!!
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/airtrain-told-to-slash-fares-20101007-169nb.html#comments
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2010, 09:33:02 AM »
From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Airtrain told to slash fares

Quote
Airtrain told to slash fares
Tony Moore
October 7, 2010

Translink says it is working with Airtrain operators to fix a pricing anomaly.

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan has called on the privately-run Airtrain to slash its fares after it was revealed that commuters were slugged up to an extra $5.70 to use the service from suburban stations.

brisbanetimes.com.au yesterday revealed Go Card commuters were paying extra to take a continuous Airtrain trip to the airport, rather than switch trains or touch off then on at Central Station.

"I note Airtrain has recently repaid their debt, so this would be a perfect opportunity to cut fares for commuters," Ms Nolan said.

"But even if they don't, our Go Card means you can take advantage of Queensland Government subsidised travel for part of your journey, which cuts your fare.

"With paper tickets you couldn't do this, and you had to pay the higher Airtrain fare."

Meanwhile, public transport lobby group Rail Back on Track has repeated its call for Airtrain to be taken over by the state government.

Spokesman Robert Dow called on the government to examine a green subsidy scheme proposed in Airtrain research in 2006.

"The preferred position is that the state government just takes Airtrain over, it is integrated into the Translink network tomorrow, the hours of operation match the rest of the network and the fare structure is exactly the same as the network," Mr Dow said.

"That is just not going to happen."

He said growth at Brisbane Airport and the possibility of Queensland's hosting the 2018 Commonwealth Games should encourage the State Government to consider the green subsidy to boost rail transport to the Gold Coast on a 24-hour basis.

In 2006, Airtrain identified five-year savings from reducing road crashes ($5.7 million), vehicle emissions ($800,000) and fuel savings (10.6 million litres) in a joint study with Queensland University of Technology and University of Queensland.

"If that is extrapolated up until today's environment it could be a real important driver in looking for some subsidy from the government for some additional services outside what Airtrain considers viable," Mr Dow said.

Currently, there are no Airtrain services to or from Brisbane Airport after 8pm.

Airtrain chief executive Chris Basche yesterday said the arrival or departure of 30 to 40 flights from Brisbane Airport after 8pm did not provide enough passengers to cover the cost of extra trains.

However, he predicted one night train would be launched within 12 to 18 months.

Mr Dow said the Queensland Government should be more proactive.

"The Gold Coast is such a rapidly growing tourist and leisure market, it's a 24-hour economy down there," he said.

"That could be southeast Queensland's first-ever 24 hour rail transport corridor."

Mr Dow also warned the Airport Link tunnel - which will ultimately connect the northern suburb of Windsor to the airport - could hurt Airtrain.

"Although they are returning a profit at the moment, with Airport Link coming into play in a few years, it could react quite negatively on them," Mr Dow said.

Airport Link includes a bus tunnel (the Northern Busway) and sources suggest there will be moves to provide buses to the airport.

Airtrain began in 2001, received its first profits in 2005 and posted a modest $7.4 million profit in 2009.

Airtrain's patronage by 2009 grew by 11 per cent to a record 1,889,549 people, an extra 250,000 passengers from the previous year.

The Airport Link toll project begins in mid-2012.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2010, 10:38:36 AM »
http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=33516

Quote
Premier
The Honourable Peter Beattie

Wednesday, November 15, 2000

Premier Completes Viaduct To Signal Airtrain on Track

Premier Peter Beattie installed the final piece of galvanised floor planking at Airtrain's Brisbane International Terminal Station today (Wednesday) to mark the closing of construction of the 8.5km Airtrain viaduct structure.

"With the viaduct structure complete, the $200 million Airtrain Citylink is on track to be completed by May 8 next year," said Mr Beattie.

"Work will now focus on completing the track, power system, signalling and stations.

"Anyone who has travelled to Brisbane Airport recently would have witnessed the remarkable progress being made in constructing the 250-span viaduct linking Toombul to the International and Domestic Terminals.

"The link is being built, owned and operated by private consortium Airtrain Citylink Ltd and will be transferred to the State after 35 years.

"It's a credit to Transfield, QR and the Airtrain Citylink team.

"And it is a shining example of the opportunities available in Queensland for private investment in infrastructure.

"The project has set new standards for co-operation between the public and private sectors in the delivery of infrastructure.

"My Government is delivering on a promise to work in partnership with the private sector to create a new era of economic growth for Queensland.

"It also enhances the development of infrastructure in support of the Australia TradeCoast development which will create even more jobs.

"Accessibility to rail links is an essential feature of the strategy for growth of a major airport.

"When complete the link will provide a "four trains an hour, seven days a week, 16 hours a day service.

"It means Brisbane will join the great cities of the world which have direct rail access from the central business district to the domestic and international airport terminals.

"This project is delivering about 250 construction jobs and is another example of my Government delivering for the people of Queensland."

Further Information: Steve Bishop 07 3224 4500

Quote
"When complete the link will provide a "four trains an hour, seven days a week, 16 hours a day service.

Oh dear ...
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2010, 10:41:06 AM »
http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=8183

Quote
Premier & Trade
The Honourable Peter Beattie

Thursday, April 19, 2001

Premier takes first ticket on Airtrain Citylink

Premier Peter Beattie became the first passenger to travel from Brisbane CBD to the Airport on the $200 million Airtrain Citylink today (Thursday)

"It is estimated that once the Airtrain starts operating on May 7, traffic to Brisbane Airport will be cut by up to 6,000 vehicle journeys a day, decreasing road pollution and congestion," said Mr Beattie.

"The Airtrain joins the South-East Busway in providing comfortable, convenient, fast, frequent public transport direct to and from the city centre

"Trains will link Brisbane Airport's Domestic and International terminals, Brisbane CBD and the Gold Coast.

"It means travellers no longer have to worry about missing flights because of traffic jams.

"I urge people to give both the Busway and the Airtrain a try - and remember to think of catching a train when they think of going to the airport.

"They can give it a try on a special preview day on Saturday, May 5, when there will be a family festival at the airport.

"Tickets have to be booked through Ticketek and takings go to charity.

"There will be four trains an hour for most of the day between Brisbane CBD and the airport, with a stop at Eagle Junction, taking 22 minutes and costing $9.

"Two of the four trains will run to and from the Gold Coast with stops at South Brisbane and South Bank stations.

"Airtrain Citylink means that Brisbane joins about 160 other major cities around the world which recognise the benefits of having a rail link from the city centre to the airport.

"The project has created local employment, including approximately 250 jobs during construction, and about 50 full time positions when services commence.

"And Airtrain is proudly Queensland made. The builder of the 8.5km link, Transfield Construction, has won an inaugural Local Content Award for sourcing all materials, suppliers and contractors for the project within Australia, mostly from Queensland.

"Airtrain Citylink was built and will be owned and operated by a private consortium before being transferred to the State after 35 years.

"It's a credit to Transfield, QR and the Airtrain Citylink team.

"And it is a shining example of the opportunities available in Queensland for private investment in infrastructure.

"The project has set new standards for co-operation between the public and private sectors in the delivery of infrastructure.

"My Government is delivering on a promise to work in partnership with the private sector to create a new era of economic growth for Queensland.

"It also enhances the development of infrastructure in support of the Australia TradeCoast development which will create even more jobs.

"Accessibility to rail links is an essential feature of the strategy for growth of a major airport."

Further details: www.airtrain.com.au to find out more.

Media contact: Steve Bishop 07 3224 4500

Quote
"There will be four trains an hour for most of the day between Brisbane CBD and the airport, with a stop at Eagle Junction, taking 22 minutes and costing $9.
  ...  slide under way ...
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colinw

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2010, 10:56:48 AM »
Other cities create genuinely useful & frequent services. Brisbane creates press releases, empty promises and mealy mouthed excuses for mediocrity. The rot that afflicts our public transport system goes all the way from the lowliest transport bureaucrat to the top office in George Street.

In just over a week I depart for one of my work trips to the UK.  Even though I will land at Heathrow just after 5:00AM, to complete my journey I will have the choice of Heathrow Express to Paddington, Tube, or a bus to Reading connecting with First Great Western services to the West Country.  My onward journey - to the town about the size of Nambour where our UK head office resides - will be a 200 km/h express train that runs every half hour for most of the day.  Strangely the Brits complain about this level of service, and are planning significant upgrades including electrification.

In comparison, this place really is hicksville.


« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 11:01:47 AM by colinw »

Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2010, 11:11:53 AM »
Airtrain need to drive patronage uptake.

Suggest they operate a high frequency CBD to Airport airtrain. Trains designed expressly for airport service.  Trains always waiting at the BNE Domestic (one arrives, the other leaves).  The link to the Gold Coast is in some ways restricting their operation.  It might be best as two Gold Coasters per hour, alternate with two CBD AirExpress shuttles.  5am to 11pm.  Coupled with some innovative fare solutions they would drive uptake considerably.

Commuter rolling stock is not ideal for Airtrain operations.  Time for them to either:

A:  Bite the bullet and develop a proper service.

or

B:  Sell out and let QR/TL bring into the normal public transport network.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 11:13:55 AM by ozbob »
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somebody

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2010, 11:24:20 AM »
Strangely the Brits complain about this level of service, and are planning significant upgrades including electrification.
If people don't use it, then they don't complain about it, I guess.

Thanks for that post, that is interesting.

Back to topic, Airtrain haven't got a better timetable than anywhere else in QLD, and, in fact, it is even more illogical than most of QR's timetables which is not easy.  What is with that 17:02 - 17:30 gap away from the airport, even though trains arrive at the airport at 17:04 and 17:23.  Other oddities are the 19:13 southbound and 18:54 northbound services.  Also the 5:27am northbound and 5:42am southbound services seem nearly useless as there are no connections except from Caboolture, I think (all times at Domestic, and weekday timetable).  Also few, if any, arrivals could use the 5:42am departure

Seems that they just don't want to listen to reason.  Two more services both ways in the evening, so running until 9pm would make the service a lot better and reduce this criticism.  Also, it wouldn't cost much: only one of the 4 services would be a Roma St terminator (and no starters).  I see a law of diminishing returns beyond 9pm as the northbound train will be empty.

Airtrain need to drive patronage uptake.

Suggest they operate a high frequency CBD to Airport airtrain. Trains designed expressly for airport service.  Trains always waiting at the BNE Domestic (one arrives, the other leaves).  The link to the Gold Coast is in some ways restricting their operation.  It might be best as two Gold Coasters per hour, alternate with two CBD AirExpress shuttles.  5am to 11pm.  Coupled with some innovative fare solutions they would drive uptake considerably.

Commuter rolling stock is not ideal for Airtrain operations.  Time for them to either:

A:  Bite the bullet and develop a proper service.

or

B:  Sell out and let QR/TL bring into the normal public transport network.


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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2010, 11:25:45 AM »
Environmental and Safety Impact
of Brisbane’s Airtrain Operations

Impact of passengers using rail rather than cars
to reach Brisbane Airport

--> http://www.airtrain.com.au/pdf/Airtrain_Impacts_Apr06.pdf

 8)
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STB

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2010, 11:38:26 AM »
If memory serves me right, I think it was indeed 4 trains an hour at first but due to lack of patronage (the old joke; if a passenger train carries passengers, coal trains carry coal, what does an airtrain carry?) Airtrain in response brought that down to 2 trains/hr in off peak.

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 11:45:14 AM »
If memory serves me right, I think it was indeed 4 trains an hour at first but due to lack of patronage (the old joke; if a passenger train carries passengers, coal trains carry coal, what does an airtrain carry?) Airtrain in response brought that down to 2 trains/hr in off peak.

Yes, there were some cutbacks.  Unfortunate but it probably set in train the lack of uptake at that time.  The airport roundabout mess helped reverse the pax loss.  When the flyover opens Airtrain may suffer.  Aggressive frequency and operation could make it very popular.  My gut feeling is they lack the drive and will slowly gurgle ....  The whole premise of basing it on the Gold Coast link is a flaw.  That should be complementary.  They really do need to re-think their operational strategy, and convert it to what the world's models generally are: special purpose high frequency CBD - Airport links using dedicated airtrain type rolling stock =  the Air Express train ...   

At three services per hour with extended hours they probably could make it work.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 11:48:44 AM by ozbob »
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somebody

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2010, 11:57:35 AM »
If memory serves me right, I think it was indeed 4 trains an hour at first but due to lack of patronage (the old joke; if a passenger train carries passengers, coal trains carry coal, what does an airtrain carry?) Airtrain in response brought that down to 2 trains/hr in off peak.
I've read that before too.  Also, patronage was initially around 6000/week on forecasts of 6000/day.  Even with the mediocre (at best) service, patronage is now in excess of 5000/day, so it seems that it has taken some time for Brisbanites to accept the notion of getting to the airport by train.

Yes, there were some cutbacks.  Unfortunate but it probably set in train the lack of uptake at that time.  The airport roundabout mess helped reverse the pax loss.  When the flyover opens Airtrain may suffer.  Aggressive frequency and operation could make it very popular.  My gut feeling is they lack the drive and will slowly gurgle ....  The whole premise of basing it on the Gold Coast link is a flaw. 
I fear you are correct.

They really need to break the link with the Gold Coast as frequency which is acceptable for the Gold Coast is not acceptable for the Airtrain.  Beenleigh would be the best to link with, which means that Ferny Grove must connect to Cleveland/Manly.  Sadly, this would receive so much unreasonable opposition that it would not happen, or at least I cannot see it.

I find it incredible actually that the management of Airtrain apparently do not see the impending train wreck or do not believe there is any possibility of avoiding it.

Offline Golliwog

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2010, 12:16:28 PM »
I think half the point that 4 tph wasn't that successful was firstly that it was a brand new service, of course it would take a while for people to start using it. And secondly when the rest of the network is still running at 2 tph off peak it means they would have only connected with every 2nd train.
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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2010, 12:17:48 PM »
Quote
They really need to break the link with the Gold Coast as frequency which is acceptable for the Gold Coast is not acceptable for the Airtrain.  Beenleigh would be the best to link with, which means that Ferny Grove must connect to Cleveland/Manly.  Sadly, this would receive so much unreasonable opposition that it would not happen, or at least I cannot see it.

I find it incredible actually that the management of Airtrain apparently do not see the impending train wreck or do not believe there is any possibility of avoiding it.

I think the link to the Gold Coast line should remain. Its a big destination and a good marketing thing to have.
'Transfer to Airtrain when you get to Brisbane' is much harder to sell.

That said though, it would it be possible to slip in trains to Brisbane Airport from Ipswich?
The level of service generally on the QR CityTrain network is also holding back Airtrain
as people will judge the trip not only on Airtrain frequency, but also on how easy it is to connect with a service
to get themselves home at the other end. Waiting 30 minutes for a connecting train is a patronage-loser.

The final thing is that Airtrain is a private company. In the absence of a subsidy, Airtrain will only provide services when the marginal benefit ($$$) of running the service exceeds the marginal cost (- $$$) i.e. when only profitable to do so. Public transport generally is NOT run this way, as if it were run this way, the only thing that would run in Brisbane would be peak hour express buses.

We also know that frequency increases patronage, but this is likely to incur a loss for a period of time (months?) as patronage takes time to respond and adjust to increased PT supply. The Airtrain can't also cash in the social benefits (reduced congestion/time savings/less pollution) that it has.

IMHO a subsidy for late night services and higher frequency is required. The government will probably not want to do this as it will reflect unfavorably on them. It will also probably say that it is not appropriate to subsidise private profits- but without this the benefits to society are also lost and costs are placed on queenslanders as they are forced to pay for overpriced taxis and car driving (which is a hidden, indirect cost). As we have seen with other PPP projects such as Clem 7, a high fee and (and low train frequency in this case) reduces benefits to society simply because it deters large numbers of people using the service in the first place.

The other reason why the 'we can't subsidise Airtrain because it is private' argument is nonsense, is because TransLink already subsidises private bus operators in normal public transport work such as every public transport bus operator in SE Queensland that isn't BCC. Clearly these private operators are not operating at a loss or providing services out of charity.  
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 12:19:45 PM by tramtrain »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2010, 12:24:08 PM »
Unless they change the operational model they are not going to move forward.  And this is a bad outcome for all the community.

As  I suggested in an earlier post ' It might be best as two Gold Coasters per hour, alternate with two CBD AirExpress shuttles.  5am to 11pm.  Coupled with some innovative fare solutions they would drive uptake considerably. '


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Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2010, 12:34:59 PM »
I have been reliably informed that round 7% of pax to and from BNE airport use the airtrain. By comparison the shuttle bus to Southern Cross Railway Station in Melbourne (Sky bus) is around 15%.  Why?  I think the basic reason is frequency of the bus service and the fact that it is a 24 hour operation.  And I would suggest if Melbourne had a rail service to the Airport it would be lot higher, probably > 30%.

That must be the first Airtrain target, 15% of the pax, then shoot for 30% ....

The 7% figure is scary, that is the general public transport mode share in SEQ ....   :o
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 12:37:22 PM by ozbob »
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Offline Golliwog

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2010, 12:43:43 PM »
I still don't think its fuly worth increasing the frequency of the airtrain by itself. IMO you need to increase the frequency across the board for all lines. WRT airtrain, I would tend to agree that GC to Brisbane doesn't warrant 4 tph (and also on current infrastructure isn't possible) so the extra airtrain ones I would suggest either ozbobs CBD shuttle idea, but TT's Ipswich line idea would also have merit, although you would want to switch across to the suburbans by Roma St to keep the platforms the same.
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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2010, 01:04:14 PM »
I don't mind the through operation with Gold Coast, and in general I think it is a good thing.  What I do object to is the early cessation of services, and the lack of an infill service to Roma St or some other suburban destination to make up the quarter hourly frequency.

I'm a non-driver and frequent user of public transport, and yet only use Airtrain rarely because it simply doesn't meet my needs most of the time I travel.

On the other hand, it is rare indeed for me to land in Sydney and not head straight for the station, no matter what the time of day is.

Offline Stillwater

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2010, 01:24:20 PM »
Is not the Moreton Drive access to Brisbane Airport and the reconstruction of the Gateway Motorway (and the Airport Link for that matter) the taxpayer-subsidised infrastructure that substitutes for an infrequent Airtrain service?  How could that 'subsidy' been better utilised?

Offline Stillwater

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2010, 01:26:35 PM »

A link from Airtrain terminus to Doomben?

Offline #Metro

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2010, 01:51:25 PM »
Quote
Is not the Moreton Drive access to Brisbane Airport and the reconstruction of the Gateway Motorway (and the Airport Link for that matter) the taxpayer-subsidised infrastructure that substitutes for an infrequent Airtrain service?  How could that 'subsidy' been better utilised?

Sigh. Politicians.
Fiercely prevent cash flying out the front door, happily let it fly out the back door.

It's what you don't see easily that matters as well. Gateway upgrade cost $1.8 billion dollars for cars.
You could buy and construct Airtrain multiple times over with that kind of money.
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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2010, 02:08:43 PM »
I think the link to the Gold Coast line should remain. Its a big destination and a good marketing thing to have.
'Transfer to Airtrain when you get to Brisbane' is much harder to sell.

That said though, it would it be possible to slip in trains to Brisbane Airport from Ipswich?
How many people benefit from this single seat journey?  Sure, if you are heading to CHC from the Gold Coast, you may need to fly out of BNE, but a sizeable portion of Gold Coasters would fly out of OOL.

I have suggested an Airport-Ipswich line connection before, but I find myself completely backing away from it now.  It would have conflicting moves and why do Ipswich line people need a single seat connection to the airport?  They can easily transfer.  Cleveland line to Airport is not particularly attractive as a cab or bus over the Gateway bridge is very attractive for a large portion of the catchment.  Beenleigh line is the best.

The level of service generally on the QR CityTrain network is also holding back Airtrain
There is also bus connections.  But yes, poor PT in general holds back the network effect, and Airtrain is part of that.

I don't mind the through operation with Gold Coast, and in general I think it is a good thing.  What I do object to is the early cessation of services, and the lack of an infill service to Roma St or some other suburban destination to make up the quarter hourly frequency.
The problem with another destination is that it needs to be a destination which only requires a half hourly service, and there are no other suitable ones like that.  The problem with Roma St terminators/starters is efficiency and also core section congestion.

Offline Mozz

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2010, 02:23:40 PM »
I catch the airtrain to and from the airport from Oxley when I can (probably around 50% of the time). The biggest reason for not catching is that it doesn't run early in the morning or after 8pm.

It is a simple thing to transfer at Central or to transfer from Eagle Junction to get the "special" gocard fare calculation.

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2010, 02:34:50 PM »
I catch the airtrain to and from the airport from Oxley when I can (probably around 50% of the time). The biggest reason for not catching is that it doesn't run early in the morning or after 8pm.

It is a simple thing to transfer at Central or to transfer from Eagle Junction to get the "special" gocard fare calculation.
Yes, but heading to the airport all it takes is for the train from Ipswich to be about 3+ minutes late and you miss it and then have a 29 minute wait.

Also, the Airtrain actually starts before the Ipswich line trains start so that's a bigger problem for the early morning service, and beyond Airtrain's control.

colinw

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2010, 02:37:17 PM »

A link from Airtrain terminus to Doomben?
Well, I still maintain that Airtrain should have been built as an extension of the Doomben line, thereby converting the Doomben line into something useful.

But that is wishful thinking that applies to an alternate universe now ...

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2010, 02:52:29 PM »
Well, I still maintain that Airtrain should have been built as an extension of the Doomben line, thereby converting the Doomben line into something useful.

But that is wishful thinking that applies to an alternate universe now ...
Which is like my argument that the ECRL should never have been built on the current alignment, and probably not even if it had gone over the Lane Cover River.  Also my argument that the standardisation of the Mel-Adelaide broad gauge should have gone through Ballarat rather than Geelong.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2010, 03:25:11 PM »
With respect to Ipswich.  It will be paired with Caboolture (sectorisation) as previously flagged by Government and others.  So that is not an option now for Airport.

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2010, 03:41:19 PM »
With respect to Ipswich.  It will be paired with Caboolture (sectorisation) as previously flagged by Government and others.  So that is not an option now for Airport.

 :hc
There is the suggestion that CRR1 will connect to the "mains" north of Bowen Hills.  If this occurs, there will be no increase in capacity for trains from the north unless Central #5 & #6 are connected to Albion #1 & #2.  So perhaps in that possibility, Ipswich-Airport may be a goer.  But not now.

Offline Golliwog

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2010, 12:59:21 AM »
New idea. It could take over the Corinda via South Bank runs?
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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2010, 11:16:25 AM »
New idea. It could take over the Corinda via South Bank runs?
Do you mean 2tph Varsity Lakes-Airport + 2tph Corinda-Airport via South Brisbane for 4tph Airport?  Interesting idea, but probably a bit of theory rather than practice since Airtrain have expressed a lack of interest in offering a better service.

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2010, 02:14:42 PM »
I would suggest that with proper regulation, Airtrain's interest or otherwise in providing a service should be a non-issue.

It is time to bring Airtrain under regulation of timetables exactly the same as the other private operators (Clarks Logan City, Park Ridge Transit, Veolia, etc.) are, i.e. DIRECT them as to what services to provide, and if necessary subsidise loss making services.

It may be that the best way out of this mess is a legislative & regulatory one.

I don't mind private operators, but DO NOT let them cherry pick and set timetables and hours of operations themselves.

Failing that, provide a normal TransLink bus service to the airport, and let AirTrain fend for themselves.

The Government also has a "wedge" to control Airtrain's attitude in that Queensland Rail provides the services, i.e the Government can control whether Airtrain actually have a train to operate.  Given the importance of the airport rail link, it is also possible to take the route of having the line declared an essential service and put made open access.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 02:19:36 PM by colinw »

Offline dwb

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2010, 03:19:24 PM »
Some people on this board seem to forget that Government sold rights, just like any other property rights, to operate the concession. the money paid was agreed under certain circumstances, one of which was that the airport and airtrain both need to consent to any pt bus services.

if you try to reverse something from a regulatory perspective you failed to do in a commercial one in the first place, all you are doing is undermining any future commercial negotiations - something which this government would be ludicrous to do while attempting to sell other state assets.

From my perspective the biggest problem with making airtrain more successful is the operational hours of the rest of the network, esp as some core clients you could try and get on to airtrain work odd shift hours at the airport and will not use it when provided with a convenient parking and b lack of service out of hours.

its not just international or domestic passengers but staff of this entire precinct that should be using the service.

having said that i do think it would be great to double frequency with half trains going direct GC and other half direct Ipswich, it would also be fantastic to halve the cost.

other than halving the cost, the government could try commercial negotiations to address the funding anomaly of non broken journeys (something which i think they're trying at the moment) and they could possibly push this even further and push a gate premium of say $8 on top of the standard Translink zone 2 fare. To make it even better still, they could enable passengers that travel to and from the airport within say 2hrs (eg seeing someone off) a standard fare... or even further just charge a $3 PT levy on all air tickets to/from Brisbane Airports and then have it as a flat zone 2 fare!!

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2010, 05:16:44 PM »
I would suggest that with proper regulation, Airtrain's interest or otherwise in providing a service should be a non-issue.
I think you are really talking about a state buyout of Airtrain.  That is one possibility.

its not just international or domestic passengers but staff of this entire precinct that should be using the service.
Yes, but as you point out the services do not have the operating hours to allow for this for a large portion of staff.  And also the AM connections are not there.  That's not really the problem in the PM though.

Besides, isn't this just a bit of cream on the top, rather than a major driver of revenue/trips here?

Offline dwb

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2010, 05:23:48 PM »
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Besides, isn't this just a bit of cream on the top, rather than a major driver of revenue/trips here?

Do 40,000 or more people fly in/out daily at Brisbane airport?

Offline Mozz

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Re: Airtrain timetable - articles and discussion
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2010, 05:27:56 PM »
Around 52,000 per day.

http://bne.com.au/media-centre/passenger-statistics

 

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