Started by ozbob, October 02, 2010, 19:38:15 PM
QuoteSo why not do this first considering the minuscule cost differential? Every major PT project delivered in Australia in the last 20 years has delivered greater patronage than was expected.
Quote from: tramtrain on May 13, 2011, 17:37:14 PMI note that you have chosen to attack the example but have avoided addressing the principle which the example was illustrating.
Quote from: tramtrain on May 13, 2011, 17:37:14 PMAnd so what is to say that your proposed LRT lines out to Robina and Nerang, of which there are no details for what the patronage will be or will eventuate to justify the large upfront capital cost (possibly $2 billion or so, provide your own cost estimate if you disagree) to these areas by 2018 or even 2030?How do we know that your speculation is also not extremely questionable as Clem 7?
Quote from: tramtrain on May 13, 2011, 17:37:14 PMDo these areas have bus services approaching or reaching the trigger threshold for LRT of 20-30 services per hour?(an arcticulated bus every 2-3 minutes)?
Quote from: tramtrain on May 13, 2011, 17:37:14 PMOut to places like Nerang and Robina. I just don't think you need something that can do 10000 pphd by 2018 or even 2030 out to these places. I agree, but I don't think LRT is that tool atleast yet.
Quote from: tramtrain on May 13, 2011, 17:37:14 PMThe population of Belconnen is almost three times the size of Robina. Canberra institute of Technology (CIT), Calvary Hospital, the AIS, and Australian National University are all on this route to Belconnen. And it is done by standard buses every 5-8 minutes traveling in a painted bus lane at up to 80 km/hour. Robina also has an existing train station.
Quote from: tramtrain on May 13, 2011, 17:37:14 PMBus lanes can be painted over a few months. Buses already exist. It has been a decade to get light rail going from planning study to tender.
Quote from: tramtrain on May 13, 2011, 17:37:14 PM1. How much will these branched extensions cost to construct? 2. How long will it take to construct and deliver? 3. Where is the money going to come from (what are we going to forgo to do it?).4. What will the frequency be on each of these branches?
Quote from: tramtrain on May 13, 2011, 17:37:14 PMMaybe we should draw up maps of our proposals. Often good things come from debates.
QuoteAnd yet you resorted to a non-public transport example in the first instance Confused. Provide a more pertinent example of why investing in PT network capacity is a waste and should be preceded with a conga-line of buses. (Airtrain is a copout – built with private funds and for private objectives, which do not coincide with good planning or with frequent service provision for travellers.)
QuoteThe point is taken, but I also note that (a) Belconnen and the other town centres in the ACT are older and more developed than Robina, which was a paddock in the 1980s, and (b) ACTION bus patronage is comparable to Surfside's, even though it appears to offer more services for a smaller population base.
QuoteOn a related point, I am very concerned with what they have been uttering on frequencies for what we know they are building. 7-8 minutes in peak only? Dear dear. (The Parsons Brinckerhoff work supposed 6 minutes all day long if memory serves.)
Quote from: tramtrain on May 13, 2011, 22:32:02 PMBut the Melbourne bus to the airport is also private and for profit.
QuoteThe CBD metro had been criticised by both the head of RailCorp and the NSW Property Council as using a much-needed protected corridor for the proposed additional heavy rail corridor through the CBD of Sydney. This line, it is claimed, would be needed to provide extra capacity on the CityRail network to ease congestion and allow growth into the future. The Sydney Morning Herald reported that Transport Minister David Campbell had admitted the CBD Metro would run up to 87% empty during peak hour on its opening in 2015 and up to 76% empty in 2031. During peak hour, the CBD Metro is projected to carry 4,000 - 5,500 passengers per hour in 2015 and 7,250 passengers per hour in 2031 out of a full capacity of 30,000 passengers per hour. The dumped, alternative proposal for a second heavy rail harbour crossing running between Redfern and Chatswood would have incurred a similar cost but was projected to carry 16,000 passengers per hour, more than four times the CBD metro.
QuoteThe Sydney MonorailIn the history of stunningly pointless great white elephants, the Sydney Monorail has to be near the top of the list. Originally conceived as a public transport solution, the monorail doesn't seem to suit anyone's purpose. Locals dismiss it as being just for tourists, while tourists soon realise that it doesn't really go anywhere they want to go visit. And, if by some miraculous turn of events the required destination is on the monorail circuit, then it's the wrong way around the one way route.
Quote from: tramtrain on May 13, 2011, 16:33:35 PMI just get the feeling people want light rail because its light rail.
Quote from: SurfRail on May 13, 2011, 11:34:00 AMAs an aside, it has been good thrashing these issues out with people who know what they are talking about and are reasonable to discuss thing with. I have rarely encountered so many people who are knowledgeable about PT and who aren't elitist, authoritarian snobs like on some other sites!
Quote from: SurfRail on May 12, 2011, 12:07:22 PMwith an inland service as follows:- Broadbeach interchange/Nerang Broadbeach Rd/Nerang Rail/Nerang/Southport-Nerang Road/Ashmore/Southport/Surfers/Broadbeach interchange and terminate.
Quote from: tramtrain on May 14, 2011, 15:10:35 PMThe mobility to both Adelaide and Melbourne airports is much better than catching Airtrain to Brisbane Airport because the frequency is much better and skybus does not have to pay off a great big loan and in fact is paying the Victorian Government money. The fact that a 900 seat capacity state of the art brand new train is going to Brisbane Airport I don't think has stimulated patronage at all. In fact I gave up on Airtrain because the frequency is just too bad I can't be bothered anymore when I can get a taxi to my front door.
Quote from: SurfRail on May 12, 2011, 22:08:24 PMCurrently, even the busiest stretch of the highway between Broadbeach and Surfers has about 18 buses transiting it per hour, which I make as follows during a weekday, excluding the theme park runs (just off the top of my head, feel free to correct me):- 700 (2)- 702 (2)- 703 (2)- 706 (2)- 709 (2)- 745 (2)- 750 (6)
QuoteYou sound like you have gone off trams completely, TT. If there was anywhere in the world that trams/LR would work out, I think it would be the Gold Coast. It's a relatively narrow strip for some of it, a transit planners dream really. Concentrate the patronage on one route and provide a high capacity vehicle at high frequencies.
QuoteI've noticed that too. I think it is a function of the fact that things discussed on this site have a chance of being put forward in an active way to the people that matter. It lifts the standard (and fun) considerably.
QuoteAnd yet Brisbane's Airtrain has more patronage than the Melbourne Skybus. Perhaps partly because the Airtrain competes more effectively with taxi services in peak hour, but there does appear to be a definite rail attraction factor. Although there are other possibilities such as superior marketing.
QuoteGiven that the capacity is likely to increase considerably on the Gold Coast, is there a need for a bus upgrade in the meantime to try to bring in some more patronage to fill the trams? Looking at the timetable, the 700 only runs every half hour north of Broadbeach, which would be the southern terminus of the light rail. It also terminates short of Griffith Uni. There are other routes, which you largely list here:
Quote from: Simon on May 14, 2011, 20:13:27 PMGiven that the capacity is likely to increase considerably on the Gold Coast, is there a need for a bus upgrade in the meantime to try to bring in some more patronage to fill the trams?
Quote from: tramtrain on May 14, 2011, 20:47:47 PMThe LRT system will be a flop if it is not fed by buses properly...!!!Is there anything at the moment that goes straight down Ferry Rd from Southport?
Quote from: tramtrain on May 14, 2011, 20:24:18 PMQuoteAnd yet Brisbane's Airtrain has more patronage than the Melbourne Skybus. Perhaps partly because the Airtrain competes more effectively with taxi services in peak hour, but there does appear to be a definite rail attraction factor. Although there are other possibilities such as superior marketing.That's interesting and I would concede that one if you had references for both.. however, I gave up on Airtrain. It's just not there when I want it and at the frequency that I would use it. I've used Skybus in Melbourne, 24 hrs, very frequent...
QuoteA record 1,889,549 people travelled on Airtrain the last financial year thanks to patronage increasing by 15% or 250,000 passengers.Airtrain Chairman Mike Pelly said these record numbers mean Airtrain was on track to exceed two million passengers this financial year (2009-10).
QuoteSkyBus now carries in excess of 2 million passengers per year, which is around 8.3 per cent of all Airport passengers (up from around 3 per cent in 1999). Brisbane's Airtrain carries nine per cent of passengers and Sydney's Airport Link carries 11 per cent. The SkyBus success story demonstrates once again that higher frequency bus services attract significant patronage growth, and can significantly increase public transport's market share of travellers.
QuoteSkyBus operates 24 hours a day, 7 days a week – the only airport public transport service in Australia to do so. It runs 250 services each day as well as a dedicated service for the Tiger Airways Terminal.
QuoteWhile already impressive, the service frequency could be significantly upgraded, boosting capacity and reducing waiting times even further. Even on existing roadways, it would be possible to increase the frequency of service to every 2-3 minutes, if additional kerb space for loading and unloading passengers can be provided at the airport and Southern Cross Stn
Quote from: ozbob on November 05, 2011, 10:41:21 AMPremier and Minister for ReconstructionThe Honourable Anna Bligh05/11/2011"We leave for a trade mission tomorrow and arrive in St Kitts and Nevis in the West Indies on Tuesday for a series of meetings and presentations before the winner is announced at 8am on Saturday morning (Queensland Time)," said the Premier.
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