Terms of use Privacy About us Media Contact

Author Topic: Premier Statement: Premier makes official bid for 2018 Commonwealth Games  (Read 10050 times)

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
Quote
So why not do this first considering the minuscule cost differential?  Every major PT project delivered in Australia in the last 20 years has delivered greater patronage than was expected.

Is Brisbane Airtrain one of these? The bus services to Adelaide Airport run at much higher frequency. The bus services to Melbourne Airport also do the same...

If I said to you that I could give you 1000 units of mobility, how do you want to pay for them, stump up $2 billion now or you can pay that same cost over 30 years, what would you choose?

My questions to you are:

1. How much will these branched extensions cost to construct?
2. How long will it take to construct and deliver?
3. Where is the money going to come from (what are we going to forgo to do it?).
4. What will the frequency be on each of these branches?
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8360
I note that you have chosen to attack the example but have avoided addressing the principle which
the example was illustrating.
And yet you resorted to a non-public transport example in the first instance  :conf.  Provide a more pertinent example of why investing in PT network capacity is a waste and should be preceded with a conga-line of buses.  (Airtrain is a copout – built with private funds and for private objectives, which do not coincide with good planning or with frequent service provision for travellers.)

And so what is to say that your proposed LRT lines out to Robina and Nerang, of which there are no details for what the patronage will be or will eventuate to justify the large upfront capital cost (possibly $2 billion or so, provide your own cost estimate if you disagree) to these areas by 2018 or even 2030?
How do we know that your speculation is also not extremely questionable as Clem 7?

These are only discussion points.  In particular, with the very real possibility of the Commonwealth Games being awarded to us, extensions to the current proposed network to deal with large-scale intensive patronage have a very real (if political) basis.

The SEQRP, structure plans and pattern of settlement are what you go on to determine these matters.  I would be being disingenuous if I attempted costings or other calculations – I am not a quantity surveyor or in project management.  I am perfectly happy to accept that an initial outlay for LRT is not worthwhile over the life of the project, but it should still be considered as an option for assessment.  Major centres should all be connected by high-frequency, high-capacity rapid transit with frequent feeder links.  If it is ultimately determined that could be a bus based solution outside the highway corridor, I can live with that.  But it should not be dismissed out of hand.

Do these areas have bus services approaching or reaching the trigger threshold for LRT of 20-30 services per hour?
(an arcticulated bus every 2-3 minutes)?
No offense, but that sounds like a planning fail.  If the authorities can’t predict a conga-line as an outcome with known data, we should be getting new urban and transit planners.  I cannot accept LRT needs to have this as a precursor, otherwise – as I have pointed out – the current levels of service on the GC Highway would not need to be replaced with trams, as is occurring, and you should be asking for more buses on the Highway for the next 20 years until they approach saturation point.  It’s a legitimate question – Griffith Uni only has about 8 or fewer buses an hour per direction as at today with some extras in the morning, and is going to get a quantum leap in capacity and frequency.

Out to places like Nerang and Robina. I just don't think you need something that can do 10
000 pphd by 2018 or even 2030 out to these places. I agree, but I don't think LRT is that tool at
least yet.

I’m definitely reconciled to your point of view, but I think we need to be looking over a much longer timeframe than we are currently (ie out to 2031).  That is really a whole-of-government issue and is not going to be solved quickly.

The population of Belconnen is almost three times the size of Robina. Canberra institute of Technology (CIT), Calvary Hospital, the AIS, and Australian National University are all on this route to Belconnen. And it is done by standard buses every 5-8 minutes traveling in a painted bus lane at up to 80 km/hour. Robina also has an existing train station.

The point is taken, but I also note that (a) Belconnen and the other town centres in the ACT are older and more developed than Robina, which was a paddock in the 1980s, and (b) ACTION bus patronage is comparable to Surfside’s, even though it appears to offer more services for a smaller population base.

Bus lanes can be painted over a few months. Buses already exist. It has been a decade to get
light rail going from planning study to tender.

Not the buses that would be needed to seriously upgrade the capacity of our network.  Surfside has a fleet of just under 400 buses at present, which is already committed to the current transport task.  New buses would have to be acquired to do anything useful, because frankly the feeder bus services planned for day 1 of the system are actually not that encouraging.

Extensions should not require a 10-year lead in time - once the network is established at all, a lot of the ground work will be complete.

1. How much will these branched extensions cost to construct?
2. How long will it take to construct and deliver?
3. Where is the money going to come from (what are we going to forgo to do it?).
4. What will the frequency be on each of these branches?

1 and 2 are a matter for assessment.  3 is not insurmountable – public borrowings, superannuation funds, land value capture, private enterprise, diverted road funding.  Frequency is going to have to be an acceptable level of service at any station on the system, which would have to be determined, but we can assume turn up and go with better services in the core where you have high-density all over.  

Maybe we should draw up maps of our proposals. Often good things come from debates.

No time unfortunately.  I haven't given it much thought recently - in particular, Robina to Broadbeach offers a lot of challenges and options, even when picking a rapid bus route.

I will aver that you have the upper hand in this debate though, and it has been worthwhile.  When I actually sit down and look at things in depth once every few months, I find I actually get a lot more out of arguing devil's advocate.

My ultimate position I think is that I believe extensions and branches are not bad per se given our network design and where the branches would likely occur, but that they should be deferred in favour of rapid bus services with limited hardware installed in the road.  A rapid network should be designed first of all, with modality left off the table until a good selection of corridors happens (except the GC Hwy which is locked in as LRT), and then patronage should continually be assessed and compared to land use planning to determine when they should be built as LRT.  I think the only real significant point of difference between us is when that might actually happen.  Knowing the history of growth on the Coast, I am inclined to think it will be sooner than you might be suggesting, but without the Commonwealth Games I agree there is very little chance of anything going inland of Griffith Uni or Pac Fair before the 2020s.
Ride the G:

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8360
On a related point, I am very concerned with what they have been uttering on frequencies for what we know they are building.  7-8 minutes in peak only?  Dear dear.  (The Parsons Brinckerhoff work supposed 6 minutes all day long if memory serves.)
Ride the G:

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
Thanks for the debate...

Quote
And yet you resorted to a non-public transport example in the first instance  Confused.  Provide a more pertinent example of why investing in PT network capacity is a waste and should be preceded with a conga-line of buses.  (Airtrain is a copout – built with private funds and for private objectives, which do not coincide with good planning or with frequent service provision for travellers.)

But the Melbourne bus to the airport is also private and for profit.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
Quote
The point is taken, but I also note that (a) Belconnen and the other town centres in the ACT are older and more developed than Robina, which was a paddock in the 1980s, and (b) ACTION bus patronage is comparable to Surfside’s, even though it appears to offer more services for a smaller population base.

Jarrett Walker recently re-organised the Canberra bus network and many improvements are new. Belconnen has now two busway style stations.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
Quote
On a related point, I am very concerned with what they have been uttering on frequencies for what we know they are building.  7-8 minutes in peak only?  Dear dear.  (The Parsons Brinckerhoff work supposed 6 minutes all day long if memory serves.)

Personally I think this is not good enough. Maybe they are using larger trams. Every 5 minutes and then extend the tram capacity by adding articulated sections to the tram or modules. You can get vehicles that do that.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 101725
    • RAIL Back On Track
Brisbanetimes --> Bligh outlines 'sizzling' Games bid
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 101725
    • RAIL Back On Track

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnj2w60ob9I

The Gold Coast's bid for the 2018 Commonwealth Games. Premier Anna Bligh reveals new details and talks about the benefits for the community.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8360
But the Melbourne bus to the airport is also private and for profit.

Did Skybus have to pay for Citylink?  Would it work without either Citylink or the Tullamarine Freeways to provide a decent journey time?
Ride the G:

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
I think that argument is bunk because these are sunk costs and it uses existing infrastructure; the cost to provide that freeway infrastructure would be unchanged whether or not Skybus existed and it has more users such as taxi, coaches etc that just single purpose.

The mobility to both Adelaide and Melbourne airports is much better than catching Airtrain to Brisbane Airport because the frequency is much better and skybus does not have to pay off a great big loan and in fact is paying the Victorian Government money. The fact that a 900 seat capacity state of the art brand new train is going to Brisbane Airport I don't think has stimulated patronage at all. In fact I gave up on Airtrain because the frequency is just too bad I can't be bothered anymore when I can get a taxi to my front door.

Governments don't usually build projects that cost a lot of money and don't stack up because of the level of parliamentary scrutiny and scarcity of funds, but sometimes they come very close. Sydney Metro/Subway was one of those and I think the Sydney Monorail is also a white elephant.

Quote
The CBD metro had been criticised by both the head of RailCorp[6] and the NSW Property Council[7] as using a much-needed protected corridor for the proposed additional heavy rail corridor through the CBD of Sydney. This line, it is claimed, would be needed to provide extra capacity on the CityRail network to ease congestion and allow growth into the future. The Sydney Morning Herald reported that Transport Minister David Campbell had admitted the CBD Metro would run up to 87% empty during peak hour on its opening in 2015 and up to 76% empty in 2031. During peak hour, the CBD Metro is projected to carry 4,000 - 5,500 passengers per hour in 2015 and 7,250 passengers per hour in 2031 out of a full capacity of 30,000 passengers per hour. The dumped, alternative proposal for a second heavy rail harbour crossing running between Redfern and Chatswood would have incurred a similar cost but was projected to carry 16,000 passengers per hour, more than four times the CBD metro.[8]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/cbd-metro-will-run-almost-empty-20090503-argd.html

Quote
The Sydney Monorail
In the history of stunningly pointless great white elephants, the Sydney Monorail has to be near the top of the list. Originally conceived as a public transport solution, the monorail doesn't seem to suit anyone's purpose. Locals dismiss it as being just for tourists, while tourists soon realise that it doesn't really go anywhere they want to go visit. And, if by some miraculous turn of events the required destination is on the monorail circuit, then it's the wrong way around the one way route.

http://travel.ninemsn.com.au/holidaytype/weird/8188180/australias-worst-tourist-attractions

I would rather spend money transporting TODAY's passengers rather than spend money now, carry lots of air for 20-30 years.


If you want proper public transport, you don't go out and buy Ferrari PT upfront because you might need it "one day". The studies have to be pretty watertight. Everyone loves Ferrari and yes Ferrari is nicer, more comfortable, looks better, goes faster etc etc. But we should separate NEEDS from WANTS. Same with High Speed Rail, "paris style" metros in Brisbane CBD--- money probably far better spent on overhauling existing urban public transport systems, Sunshine Coast line, CAMCOS, Cross River Rail, BUZ extensions etc.

These people have good intentions, but so often the results do the exact opposite to what was intended, lock up cash and condemn us to low frequency services, plans that are pushed over horizons, etc because they spent that money on concrete not services where and when it was not needed.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 03:51:45 PM by tramtrain »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
Don't get me wrong, I like trams and light rail, my icon is a tram; but I have to separate what I want from what people need.

By all means recommend a study for how rapid transit might work on the Gold Coast- I think PT does need to be improved and rapid transit isn't just about the light rail line going into the core but also how the buses are going to link in with that and yes, maybe explore future RT links and the best modes to serve that.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 03:46:45 PM by tramtrain »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline Zoiks

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 266
Dont forget that a light rail line is more permanent then a bus stop. This in itself lends itself to getting more patronage.
It also gives security to investment around the line, higher densities etc. It is also a permanent point for politicians and planners to work with.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
I used to believe that, I don't anymore.

The infrastructure is permanent. The service might not be....
The entire Brisbane tram system was shut down. How is that more permanent? The tracks are still underneath Brisbane streets, the actual stops can be seen around this city today, the trams are all in the museum...

Is Buranda  busway station permanent or impermanent? Bus stops on Ipswich road?
The Airtrain guideway to Brisbane airport is pretty permanent-- but the service frequency is all wrong.. hardly patronage attracting...

If you build up good frequency from the start, you'll get patronage that will secure that service's future. I really doubt that CityGlider and BUZ 199 are going to get cuts..

The guiding principle I use is mobility. If I build this, what will the frequency be, how fast will it go, what will the operating hours be, how long will it take to get started up, how much will it cost?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 03:42:59 PM by tramtrain »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

somebody

  • Guest
I just get the feeling people want light rail because its light rail.
You sound like you have gone off trams completely, TT.  If there was anywhere in the world that trams/LR would work out, I think it would be the Gold Coast.  It's a relatively narrow strip for some of it, a transit planners dream really.  Concentrate the patronage on one route and provide a high capacity vehicle at high frequencies.

I can't see heavy rail there though.

As an aside, it has been good thrashing these issues out with people who know what they are talking about and are reasonable to discuss thing with.  I have rarely encountered so many people who are knowledgeable about PT and who aren’t elitist, authoritarian snobs like on some other sites!
I've noticed that too.  I think it is a function of the fact that things discussed on this site have a chance of being put forward in an active way to the people that matter.  It lifts the standard (and fun) considerably.

with an inland service as follows:

- Broadbeach interchange/Nerang Broadbeach Rd/Nerang Rail/Nerang/Southport-Nerang Road/Ashmore/Southport/Surfers/Broadbeach interchange and terminate.
I'm in general agreement with most of what you are suggesting in this thread, but I question the Nerang-Broadbeach Rd bit of this one.  Seems to go indirectly through some less populated areas. 

Did you mean including some development along the corridor?

The mobility to both Adelaide and Melbourne airports is much better than catching Airtrain to Brisbane Airport because the frequency is much better and skybus does not have to pay off a great big loan and in fact is paying the Victorian Government money. The fact that a 900 seat capacity state of the art brand new train is going to Brisbane Airport I don't think has stimulated patronage at all. In fact I gave up on Airtrain because the frequency is just too bad I can't be bothered anymore when I can get a taxi to my front door.
And yet Brisbane's Airtrain has more patronage than the Melbourne Skybus.  Perhaps partly because the Airtrain competes more effectively with taxi services in peak hour, but there does appear to be a definite rail attraction factor. Although there are other possibilities such as superior marketing.

Given that the capacity is likely to increase considerably on the Gold Coast, is there a need for a bus upgrade in the meantime to try to bring in some more patronage to fill the trams?  Looking at the timetable, the 700 only runs every half hour north of Broadbeach, which would be the southern terminus of the light rail.  It also terminates short of Griffith Uni.  There are other routes, which you largely list here:
Currently, even the busiest stretch of the highway between Broadbeach and Surfers has about 18 buses transiting it per hour, which I make as follows during a weekday, excluding the theme park runs (just off the top of my head, feel free to correct me):

- 700 (2)
- 702 (2)
- 703 (2)
- 706 (2)
- 709 (2)
- 745 (2)
- 750 (6)
I think the 707 also.

I guess that largely answers my question.  Evenings might drop off and service to the uni could be an issue also.  So I'm posting the question anyway.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
Quote
You sound like you have gone off trams completely, TT.  If there was anywhere in the world that trams/LR would work out, I think it would be the Gold Coast.  It's a relatively narrow strip for some of it, a transit planners dream really.  Concentrate the patronage on one route and provide a high capacity vehicle at high frequencies.

What are you talking about ! I love trams, I love Light Rail! But as I have learned more, i feel the need to separate what I want vs what is needed... But look, I read the GCRT report, and if you just got the right of way only and ran 18m buses, you would start with a frequency double that of the LRT and that would be good up to 2026 on the core apparently. I want the LRT on the core section... and I suspect though that the patronage will be much higher because the planners haven't took into account the network effect that will come about by feeding the buses into the LRT. And that's not my opinion-- that what the GCRT report has in there. Bus 3-5 minutes, LRT 7-8 minutes...

I can't see heavy rail or subway either- and that's because the corridor is narrow, built up already and its all sand underneath. I doubt tunneling through sand would be easy.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
Quote
I've noticed that too.  I think it is a function of the fact that things discussed on this site have a chance of being put forward in an active way to the people that matter.  It lifts the standard (and fun) considerably.

Yeah like that catfight debate on who was subsidising who for the Sunshine Coast...  >:D
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
Quote
And yet Brisbane's Airtrain has more patronage than the Melbourne Skybus.  Perhaps partly because the Airtrain competes more effectively with taxi services in peak hour, but there does appear to be a definite rail attraction factor. Although there are other possibilities such as superior marketing.

That's interesting and I would concede that one if you had references for both.. however, I gave up on Airtrain. It's just not there when I want it and at the frequency that I would use it. I've used Skybus in Melbourne, 24 hrs, very frequent...
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
Quote
Given that the capacity is likely to increase considerably on the Gold Coast, is there a need for a bus upgrade in the meantime to try to bring in some more patronage to fill the trams?  Looking at the timetable, the 700 only runs every half hour north of Broadbeach, which would be the southern terminus of the light rail.  It also terminates short of Griffith Uni.  There are other routes, which you largely list here:

I really hate to say this, but I think the GCRT is half baked at this stage. What about the feeder services and rapid transit to areas which are not on the core. The SERVICES?? This is what people have been banging on about- how do I access it if I live out at Ashmore or Benowa or Nerang?

You need a bus upgrade and there doesn't seem to be much word on that. The Gold Coast can do something like BUZ and that could be 24 hour because that is round the clock down there...
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8360
Given that the capacity is likely to increase considerably on the Gold Coast, is there a need for a bus upgrade in the meantime to try to bring in some more patronage to fill the trams?

Absolutely, and I echo TTs sentiments about the feeder network.

We need a bigger bus fleet than present to make the feeders work properly in 2014, even with the withdrawal of most of the bus routes from Pac Fair to Southport. There also needs to be a lead-in and implementation plan, which I am not seeing at the moment.

Even 100 extra buses would probably be enough to stimulate capacity, which is 25 a year until opening or about 2 a month - perfectly manageable with a bit of willpower.  Surfside's new Coomera depot due to open shortly will have enough room for about 180 at maximum capacity, so when taken with the 2 current depots there is comfortably space for just over 500 buses, more if you get a bit squeezy.

I expect there are 4 big problems to this happening quickly
  • absense of funding, either in an absolute sense or because it is being misallocated;
  • a perception that GCRT will "fix" everything and that there is no need to do anything beforehand;
  • the fact we have had a big fleet replacement and modernisation from 2006-2010 which included withdrawal of the vast majority of minibuses; and
  • the fact that Bustech - Surfside's sole supplier and a related entity - is busy building buses for everybody else at present.

I think they really should be aiming for 10-15 minute headways on the following bus corridors once the system is running, which would form the basis of our core frequent network.
  • Southport to Paradise Point (current 706);
  • Southport to Nerang to Broadbeach (the proposed 740, which is more or less the same as the 'inland' line I was talking about earlier) - combined with the withdrawal of the 745;
  • Broadbeach to Robina Rail via Varsity Lakes;
  • Broadbeach to Runaway Bay via Ashmore/Benowa, Griffith Uni and Harbour Town (more or less current 738 with further extension);
  • Robina to Burleigh (pre-recent changes version of the 765, straight down Christine Ave); and
  • Helensvale to Griffith Uni (current 709).

For south of Broadbeach, I know they are assessing a few options
  • Single 5 minute frequency bus route operating via current Route 700/706 (ie diverting into The Pines);
  • Single 5 minute frequency bus route operating via current Route 700 only; or
  • Combination of the above - 2 route numbers.  Probably 50/50 during the day and withdraw the diverted route from late night to early morning.  The diverted route would be important because it would be the best connection for the railway in this stretch.

Absolute minimum for off-peak service anywhere on the Coast should be 30 minute headways, except for Route 748 which can probably do with an hourly service.  (The section between Robina and Bond Uni needs to be separated from the rural bit.)  We should also be pushing to takeover the Tweed bus routes from Transport NSW, particularly with the big development going it at Cobaki which they will have no interest in servicing properly.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 09:08:12 PM by SurfRail »
Ride the G:

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
The LRT system will be a flop if it is not fed by buses properly...!!!

Is there anything at the moment that goes straight down Ferry Rd from Southport?
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8360
The LRT system will be a flop if it is not fed by buses properly...!!!

Is there anything at the moment that goes straight down Ferry Rd from Southport?

To answer your question - yes.

To answer your question with some more detail - the 747 is the only service which goes straight down the entire corridor, and is only a recent addition to the network brought about because of GCCC pushing for it and stumping up half the funding.  It does not run on weekends though, and only goes from 7am-7pm.  (I think it is technically still a trial route, but it appears to be sustainable and has survived the 6 month cutoff date, whenever that was.)

To answer in detail:

Leaving Southport, you have the 5 (highly variable frequencies but not good), the 18 and 18A (combined half-hourly at best), the 737 (4 per day) and the 747.

By TSS and Southport Park, just down from Southport, you have already lost the 18/18A and 737 into Benowa, and are left with the 5 and 747.

At the Corporate Centre, the 5 diverts into Surfers and back again via Chevron Is and Is of Capri.  However, you gain the half-hourly 738 which joins from Slatyer Avenue. The 21 also crosses here.

Further down at Salerno Street (the intersection which looks like one team were working on imperial and the other on metric), the 5 and 18 rejoin and you still have the 738 and the 747.

Just over the Nerang River you lose the 738 and the 18, leaving you with the 5 and 747.

At N-B Road, the 5 heads over to Pac Fair and you only have the 747 continuing south.  It goes as far as the Super Q shopping centre, but there is no walk-up patronage along Bermuda Street itself at this point.

The only other bus service further south of here is provided by the hourly route 754, which traverses the stretch between Cottesloe and Christine where there is a bit of residential density (largely inaccessible of course due to the stop location, poor service and road network) and office space immediately opposite Bond Uni.
Ride the G:

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
I've always thought the border was drawn a bit odd, and that Tweed heads north of the river there should be part of QLD.
Invade NSW!!!

It's really great to have a Gold Coaster on the forum...  :-t
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

somebody

  • Guest
Quote
And yet Brisbane's Airtrain has more patronage than the Melbourne Skybus.  Perhaps partly because the Airtrain competes more effectively with taxi services in peak hour, but there does appear to be a definite rail attraction factor. Although there are other possibilities such as superior marketing.

That's interesting and I would concede that one if you had references for both.. however, I gave up on Airtrain. It's just not there when I want it and at the frequency that I would use it. I've used Skybus in Melbourne, 24 hrs, very frequent...
It's a bit old, referring to 2008/9 financial year, but: http://www.airtrain.com.au/pressreleases.php
Quote
A record 1,889,549 people travelled on Airtrain the last financial year thanks to patronage increasing by 15% or 250,000 passengers.

Airtrain Chairman Mike Pelly said these record numbers mean Airtrain was on track to exceed two million passengers this financial year (2009-10).


For Melbourne, link here: http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/107805/sub031.pdf
Says that 2009 patronage was 1.12mil.  However, it also adds that it now carries 2.2mil.

Looks like it if it hasn't already passed Airtrain it soon will.  Although I am intrigued by the discrepancy in a single document over two years or less.  Surely the 1.12mil is counting both directions?  Says "between Airport and Southern Cross".

Melbourne Airport is almost 50% busier so market share of Airtrain is still better at 1.8m vs 2.2m.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
Hmmm..

http://vcec.vic.gov.au/CA256EAF001C7B21/WebObj/T19-SkyBusSubmissionWord/$File/T19%20-%20SkyBus%20Submission%20Word.doc

Quote
SkyBus now carries in excess of 2 million passengers per year, which is around 8.3 per cent of all Airport passengers (up from around 3 per cent in 1999).  Brisbane's Airtrain carries nine per cent of passengers and Sydney’s Airport Link carries 11 per cent.

The SkyBus success story demonstrates once again that higher frequency bus services attract significant patronage growth, and can significantly increase public transport’s market share of travellers.

So they are very similar. I've used Sydney's Airport Link and it has good frequency so no complaints on that one.

SkyBus has a higher level of mobility- it is 24 hour operation, while we fight to have services after 8pm. The time and ticket prices are similar to Airtrain.
Quote
SkyBus operates 24 hours a day, 7 days a week – the only airport public transport service in Australia to do so. It runs 250 services each day as well as a dedicated service for the Tiger Airways Terminal.

Quote
While already impressive, the service frequency could be significantly upgraded, boosting capacity and reducing waiting times even further.  Even on existing roadways, it would be possible to increase the frequency of service to every 2-3 minutes, if additional kerb space for loading and unloading passengers can be provided at the airport and Southern Cross Stn

I don't think I would build BRT to Melbourne airport (Class A Busway) though. The frequency of service needs to rise to a level where you can "jump across" to rail without a large loss in frequency. And that's why there is that modal transition. That trigger point is when you begin to approach an articulated bus every ~ 2-3 minutes off-peak (20-30 buses/hr). Because planning and construction can take many years if projections start showing the 2-3 minute trigger approaching, I would start thinking of trains when my headways were getting very frequent.

Note: It does not necessarily have to be heavy rail to the airport, and might be better off as Rapid LRT between the city and the airport. That would keep train paths on the train network free and could do up to 15 000 pphd, more than enough capacity.

The challenge would be how to connect rail into the already very complicated Melbourne train network and keep the speed up.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 07:57:21 AM by tramtrain »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

colinw

  • Guest
From what I have seen of the airport buses in Melbourne, they are a very good service that are meeting the need well. I would be very reluctant to go to rail while there are so many more pressing issues there.

Anyway, this is a Gold Coast Light Rail thread so enough of Melbourne.

I am going to take a viewpoint similar to SurfRail here.  I am of the opinion that the Gold Coast is just about THE ideal case for light rail linehaul route, with relatively short feeder runs for the inland services.

I also am of the opinion that the light rail line that is under construction only makes sense as a starter line for a larger system.  If the current line is all the LRT that the Gold Coast gets, then it will have been a waste of money.  It simply only makes sense as the first segment of a line joining Helensvale to Coolangatta, otherwise you end up with additional transfers to reach the heavy rail, and the need to run an LRT equivalent BRT service south of Broadbeach (in which case it may as well have been BRT the whole way to start with).

A single isolated LRT line isn't going to come anywhere near realising the potential of public transport on the coast.

Neither is a 6-7 minute peak hour service frequency.

Ultimately I think there is scope for one or more branches off this network, to Nerang and Robina.  Maybe to Hope Island as SurfRail suggests as well.   Care will have to be taken to avoid dilution of service frequency at the extremities if this is done, although LRT should be able to handle very tight headways and at least two overlaid routes on the core segment through Surfers.  Inland branches to Robina or Nerang could be operated as a shuttle service, and should initially be BRT and only converted to LRT if patronage grows to a level to justify the conversion.

For the Commonwealth Games a very high capacity bus route will be needed from Nerang Station to Broadbeach or Surfers via the stadium.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 101725
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Premier Statement: Premier makes official bid for 2018 Commonwealth Games
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2011, 10:41:21 AM »
Premier and Minister for Reconstruction
The Honourable Anna Bligh
05/11/2011

PREMIER: GOLD COAST WE'LL GIVE IT OUR BEST SHOT

Premier Anna Bligh has vowed to give the Gold Coast's 2018 Commonwealth Games Bid her best shot as Queensland enters the last week of the countdown to the Games decision.

Speaking at the Gold Coast Aquatic Centre at Southport on the Gold Coast Ms Bligh said she was determined to back the games bid right down to the wire.

Ms Bligh released some sneak preview footage of the special video presentation planned for delegates and computer images of the proposed upgrade to the Aquatic Centre and the planned Athletes' village at the new Health and Knowledge precinct at Carrara.

"We leave for a trade mission tomorrow and arrive in St Kitts and Nevis in the West Indies on Tuesday for a series of meetings and presentations before the winner is announced at 8am on Saturday morning (Queensland Time)," said the Premier.

"We are going to give it our best shot. When they read out the winner on Saturday morning I want to be safe in the knowledge that we have done everything possible to win these games for Queensland."

Ms Bligh said that if the Gold Coast was successful the Games would be the only major international sporting event held in Australia in the next decade.

"They could generate up to $2 billion in economic benefits with up to 30,000 full time-equivalent jobs created between 2015 and 2020," she said.

The successful bid to host the games would also mean infrastructure upgrades including:

    Increasing the capacity of Metricon stadium from 25,000 to 40,000 seats

    New badminton and mountain bike facilities

    A world class squash complex

    Development of the Coomera Sports and Leisure Centre .

    Upgrades to the Broadbeach Bowls Club, Gold Coast Hockey Centre and the Gold Coast Aquatic Centre.

    Acceleration of the new Health and Knowledge Precinct including an athletes village for the Games.

"The proposed upgrades to this Aquatic Centre are the perfect example of how the games can transform the coast," said the Premier.

"The Gold Coast Aquatic Centre will undergo a major redevelopment worth nearly $40 million to provide for both the Swimming and Diving elements of the Games sports programme.

"Key elements of the redevelopment include the construction of a new 50 metre, 10 lane swimming pool for competition purposes, while the existing 50 metre pool will become the warm up pool in Games mode."

The Premier said seating for 10,000 spectators (swimming) and 2,500 spectators (diving) will also be provided on a temporary basis for the Games.

"After the games this redeveloped venue would include additional change rooms, meetings rooms and the flexibility for Gold Coast City Council to incorporate a variety of community sport and leisure activities.

"The upgraded Aquatic Centre will also help the Gold Coast attract more international swimming events to Queensland."

Ms Bligh said the US Swim team and the Scottish rugby union team are just two of the international teams to have made their final training preparations in Gold Coast City this year.

"The establishment of the Gold Coast City as an international training base got a huge boost in the lead up to the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games with over 80 teams training here pre-event," she said.

"A successful Coast Commonwealth Games tilt could only further boost our reputation as the world's pre-eminent year-round elite training location and reinforce our tourism reputation.

"These games can see the Gold Coast take its place among the great cities of Australia. I call on all Queenslanders to back the games and make 2018 the Gold Coast's time to shine."
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline Set in train

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 623
Re: Premier Statement: Premier makes official bid for 2018 Commonwealth Games
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2011, 01:27:47 PM »
Premier and Minister for Reconstruction
The Honourable Anna Bligh
05/11/2011

"We leave for a trade mission tomorrow and arrive in St Kitts and Nevis in the West Indies on Tuesday for a series of meetings and presentations before the winner is announced at 8am on Saturday morning (Queensland Time)," said the Premier.

Broadwater Parklands at Southport has been decided as the location for Gold Coasters to gather to celebrate/commiserate the decision:
http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/newsweb/t_news_item.aspx?pid=9816

Those in Brisbane wishing to attend will just make it there, the first train arrives in Helensvale at 6:29am on Saturdays. In summer, it's already light then by almost two hours.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 101725
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Premier Statement: Premier makes official bid for 2018 Commonwealth Games
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2011, 08:10:29 AM »
Brisbanetimes --> Gold Coast wins tight race for Commonwealth Games

Couriermail --> Gold Coast to host 2018 Commonwealth Games

 :tr :tr :tr :-t
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Offline Stillwater

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6582
Re: Premier Statement: Premier makes official bid for 2018 Commonwealth Games
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2011, 08:19:49 AM »
Given the importance of Gold Coast seats to the re-election of a Labor state government, will we now see the Premier call an election for December -- get it all done and dusted before Christmas?

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8360
Re: Premier Statement: Premier makes official bid for 2018 Commonwealth Games
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2011, 08:38:55 AM »
VICTORY!

Now, let the campaigning for LRT and bus network capacity expansions commence!  (Even the old Gold Coast line as well!)

Fantastic outcome for the city, and would be a very welcome vindication for Anna and the team...
Ride the G:

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 101725
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Premier Statement: Premier makes official bid for 2018 Commonwealth Games
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2011, 08:44:05 AM »
Premier and Minister for Reconstruction
The Honourable Anna Bligh
12/11/2011

GOLD COAST SET TO SHINE WITH 2018 COMMONWEALTH GAMES

The Gold Coast has taken its place among the great Australian Cities after winning the 2018 Commonwealth Games Bid in St Kitts & Nevis said Queensland Premier Anna Bligh today.

Ms Bligh said the Games could generate up to $2 billion in economic benefit with up to 30,000 full time-equivalent jobs created between 2015 and 2020.

Over $500 million will now be invested on sport and transport infrastructure as a direct result of the successful bid.

"Congratulations to the Gold Coast, to Queensland and Australia - we did it. We get up again!" said Ms Bligh.

"Our united community welcomes these games.

"In 2018 we will be ready to host a unique world- class and friendly event that builds on the Commonwealth brand and enhances our city's reputation.

"This city will be transformed with new infrastructure and a buzz that only a big international event like this can bring."

The Premier said the successful bid to host the games would mean infrastructure upgrades including:

•Increasing the capacity of Metricon stadium from 25,000 to 40,000 seats

•New badminton and mountain bike facilities

•A world class squash complex

•Development of the Coomera Sports and Leisure Centre .

•Upgrades to the Broadbeach Bowls Club, Gold Coast Hockey Centre and the Gold Coast Aquatic Centre.

"Ever since I picked up the phone to the President of the Commonwealth Games Association Mr Sam Coffa during the Beijing Olympics to suggest our games bid I knew the Gold Coast was in with a chance," said the Premier.

"Today we hit the bullseye - 2018 is the Gold Coast's time to shine!"

Ms Bligh paid tribute to Sri Lanka's bid city Hambantota.

"Make no mistake this was a tough contest and all Queenslanders should be thrilled with the result," she said.

"These games will bring superb tourism opportunities for the Gold Coast and for Queensland.

"The Games will also act as a catalyst to fast track infrastructure development.

"We will see new sporting facilities, improved transport and a new Health and Knowledge precinct adjacent to the $1.76 billion Gold Coast University Hospital.

"We have made a promise to the Commonwealth Games Federation and will deliver on this promise."

www.thepremier.qld.gov.au

==============================================================
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 101725
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Premier Statement: Premier makes official bid for 2018 Commonwealth Games
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2011, 08:46:04 AM »
Further discussion --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7057.0
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 


“You can't understand a city without using its public transportation system.” -- Erol Ozan