Article: Open Green Bridge to traffic: Councillor

[Golliwog]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/open-green-bridge-to-traffic-councillor-20100929-15x9a.html#poll

Open Green Bridge to traffic: Councillor
Tony Moore
September 30, 2010 - 5:39AM

Comments 2
Vote .
The Eleanor Schonell Bridge linking St Lucia and Dutton Park. Photo: Michelle Smith

A local councillor has called for the pedestrian and bus-only Eleanor Schonell "green" bridge to be open to peak hour traffic before another river crossing the the area was built.

The joint State Government/Brisbane City Council RiverCity Blueprint has recommended a new bridge be built to alleviate growth pains in the St Lucia area.

A progress report in July clearly suggests the bridge could be a vehicular bridge.

"A river crossing between St Lucia/Long Pocket and Yeronga was identified as a desired new link," the report finds.

"Support across pedestrian, cycling, public transport and private vehicles were relatively equal."

Tennyson Ward councillor Nicole Johnston said opening up the Eleanor Schonell Bridge in peak hours to private vehicles and extending CityCat services further upstream would be preferable to a new river crossing.

"The University of Queensland is the largest traffic generator in the suburbs," Cr Johnston, a former member of Lord Mayor Campbell Newman's Liberal National Party team, told brisbanetimes.com.au.

"I think it is certainly worth examining allowing private vehicles on to the Eleanor Schonell Bridge, simply to relieve pressure at the Walter Taylor Bridge because it is a bottleneck and we know that the vast majority of traffic that is crossing the Walter Taylor Bridge is turning right [past the rail line] to access the educational facilities," she said.

"And that includes the private school and the university in St Lucia."

Cr Johnston said almost every resident who contacts her asks about the CityCat service being extended upstream from St Lucia.

"Why is the funding being looked at a for a new bridge not being looked at to reinforce the banks of the river?" she said.

"Is this the opportunity to look at extending the CityCats."

But Deputy Mayor Graham Quirk poured cold water on Cr Johnston's suggestions.

"Council is not currently considering any river crossing from Yeronga to St Lucia and a trial of private vehicles on the Eleanor Schonell Bridge is simply not possible," he said.

"There is no connection from the green bridge to the road network on the St Lucia side as per the request of the university so that no one could ever use it as a through route."

Cr Quirk said an extension of the CityCat network further upriver had been ruled out because it could not compete against other public transport such as rail and bus because of the winding nature of the river and the substantial additional travel times it would impose on the network.

He said the Rivercity Blueprint report contained a range of ideas suggested by about 100 people from local community, business, industry and government representatives earlier this year.

Residents angered at no advice

Meanwhile, Yeronga residents are also upset, saying they had no knowledge a second bridge was being considered.

Yeronga Districts Residents Association president Trevor Wilson promised a massive objection and demanded residents receive a briefing from Brisbane planners.

Mr Wilson said a recent mistake by a developer proved residents would not accept vehicles from St Lucia flooding through their streets.

"It turned out the developer had made a mistake," he said.

"But the reaction of traffic getting pushed down into that Yeronga peninsula was massive and I guess that if this comes up on the radar our members, and the Yeronga residents are certainly going to oppose it.

"They are already concerned about the amount of traffic that gets pushed down into that peninsula and along the Corso."

Mr Wilson insisted the Yeronga community be kept informed of any developments.

He said the only vacant land was at The Esplanade, opposite two research facilities which are being exited and towards the Tennyson tennis centre.

"Otherwise they are looking at acquiring properties that are worth, two, three, four million dollars a pop," Mr Wilson said.

Plan goes to State Government in mid-2011

Consultation on the RiverCity Blueprint is expected in the second half of 2010 and a draft prepared by Christmas.

A public meeting to discuss another bridge, between Bulimba and Teneriffe, was held on Monday.

Infrastructure Minister Stirling Hinchliffe, local MP Di Farmer and Bulimba councillor Shayne Sutton hosted the meeting.

The final Brisbane blueprint is expected by mid-2011. It then goes to the State Government for action with Brisbane City Council.

[ozbob]

Public and Active Transport Forum - Walter Taylor Ward By Election click --> here!

[#Metro]

Cr Quirk said an extension of the CityCat network further upriver had been ruled out because it could not compete against other public transport such as rail and bus because of the winding nature of the river and the substantial additional travel times it would impose on the network.

There we go... it will add time to the journey. Mind you though, if environmental concerns can be taken into account then a CityCat at Yeronga or further downstream might be worthwhile. To avoid the issue of travel time, simply install a separate route spaced with a transfer in between.

So you could have a route like (example only)
* West End (connect CityGlider and 199)
* UQ St Lucia
* Fairfield
* Yeronga
* St Lucia Esplanade
* Long Pocket
* Yeronga (Kadumba)
* Yeerongpilly
* Tennyson

It's true that it will add to journey time if the current route is simply extended. But it's not like no solution for that exists. I wonder if they took into account the waiting time for trains on the Beenleigh line? In the off peak, the wait is 30 minutes and that is before you even step on the train! Surely the ferry could have done this run and be heading back to West End by then.

A trial service springs to mind- but how would that be done? Temporary pontoons and ferries?

[Golliwog]

I think the additional travel time they talk of might more simply be from the decrease in frequency that would be experienced just from the extra distance that would be covered. Although IMO you owuld be able to go a fairway up stream non stop simply because of the Green bridge providing a cross river link already in that area.

[#Metro]

Cr Quirk said an extension of the CityCat network further upriver had been ruled out because it could not compete against other public transport such as rail and bus because of the winding nature of the river and the substantial additional travel times it would impose on the network.

Re-reading this. Some of these reasons are truly woeful.

1. Since when were rivers not windy? Are we to believe that the Brisbane River is a straight line after Apollo Road and UQ?
2. The rail and bus services in the area are laughable. 417 long pocket? Yeronga buses? Beenleigh line trains? Services to Tennyson?
All infrequent; abysmal level of service.
3. If speed is the issue, make stop spacing larger and terminate the service early- like running to West End only.

[ButFli]

It isn't just the windyness of the river that prevents CityCats going further upstream. Surely an express service like the RiverCat in Sydney would deal with this problem?

I've heard things like the river getting too shallow near its banks further upstream, that there are dangerous submerged rocks somewhere, that in certain places the navigable part of the river is too narrow for two CityCats to pass safely or for a CityCat to turn around. Not saying it's true. That's just what I've heard.

[#Metro]

"I think it is certainly worth examining allowing private vehicles on to the Eleanor Schonell Bridge, simply to relieve pressure at the Walter Taylor Bridge because it is a bottleneck and we know that the vast majority of traffic that is crossing the Walter Taylor Bridge is turning right [past the rail line] to access the educational facilities," she said.

Maybe 427/428/417 and a route from UQ-Inala or UQ-Mt Ommaney via should be looked at? How about a proper interchange with rail at Indooroopilly Rail station? The Schonell Bridge cost $55.5 million, an interchange at Indooroopilly would cost much less than that.

[Golliwog]

You don't need a route UQ to Mt Ommaney or Inala! Mt Ommaney has rotues that run through Indooroopilly shopping center, it very easy to interchange there. Inala I'm not so sure about where their routes run, but there are feeders to the Ipswich line aren't there? Quite easy to change at Toowong. Or the 100 has a stop at the PA Hospital, so surely you can change to the busway there and catch any of the 109, 139, 169 or 209?

[somebody]

You don't need a route UQ to Mt Ommaney or Inala! Mt Ommaney has rotues that run through Indooroopilly shopping center, it very easy to interchange there. Inala I'm not so sure about where their routes run, but there are feeders to the Ipswich line aren't there? Quite easy to change at Toowong. Or the 100 has a stop at the PA Hospital, so surely you can change to the busway there and catch any of the 109, 139, 169 or 209?

That's one way of looking at it.  BTW, the 460 extends to Inala, and I think it's the 462 which is a Darra feeder bus.

The other way of looking at it is that if you have the peak time route to UQ, you don't need the via Moggill Rd route.

It isn't just the windyness of the river that prevents CityCats going further upstream. Surely an express service like the RiverCat in Sydney would deal with this problem?

Maybe to the west side of Yeronga it may make (some) sense, but any further than that you are just getting in to crazy talk.  Graceville and Indooroopilly have the train, I suppose Tennyson has a poor service, but it could have a full time rail service too.  The next shore you might want to serve is Fig Tree Pocket, and that's just a tourist service.  Even Yeronga West could more easily have ramped up bus services.

[O_128]

how about  428 rocket?, the 428 meanders through all the backroads and takes forever

[#Metro]

how about  428 rocket?, the 428 meanders through all the backroads and takes forever

They are all express, but there is 432, not very frequent. Maybe more 432 buses could be put on and this could
become UQ-Indooroopilly Rail-Express-Indooroopilly Rail

[somebody]

428 is all stops.

The stupid part with the 427 IMO is the Ward St/Central Av/Lambert Rd/Clarence Rd around the block bit.  I think it should just stick to Clarence Rd heading inbound.  Really, the 428 should do that too in both directions, especially now they have ramped up the 402 and also 412.  Also the Hawken Dr routing of the 427/428/432 seems slower than Carmody Rd on paper.  Probably only seconds in that one though.  Arguably, the 427 outbound should stick to Swann Rd until Moggill Rd, but if not then avoid Central Av in that direction too.

[somebody]

One other thing.  This whole plan just isn't happening in any form.  No way any new bridge in this area will survive the NIMBY backlash.  Moggill doesn't want a bridge, or longer operating hours on the ferry either.

How about a proper interchange with rail at Indooroopilly Rail station? The Schonell Bridge cost $55.5 million, an interchange at Indooroopilly would cost much less than that.

Not required for UQ services.  You would be better off changing at Toowong.

That Schonell Bridge is excellent value for money at that price.

[#Metro]

Moggill doesn't want a bridge, or longer operating hours on the ferry either.

Moggill Ferry! 

http://www.qt.com.au/story/2010/01/05/ferry-breakdown-leaves-drivers-stranded-again/

[mufreight]

A bus rail interchange at Indooroopilly and the connection of the Elanor Schonell Bridge to either Campbell Rd or to Chancellors Place by a bus tunnel would provide better public transport access to the University and enable the through routing of bus services.
Can do Newman is a proponent of tunnels as a solution to congestion this proposal would provide relief for commuters and by building such a connection underground would remove the concerns and objections of the University regarding through traffic and provide the opportunity for the construction of an underground bus station at the university that would provide the infrastructure to cater for additional services with no loss of facility for the University.

[Otto]

I've heard things like the river getting too shallow near its banks further upstream, that there are dangerous submerged rocks somewhere, that in certain places the navigable part of the river is too narrow for two CityCats to pass safely or for a CityCat to turn around. Not saying it's true. That's just what I've heard.

You can see some of the rocks just upstream from the E. Schonell Bridge.. Most of the rocks are submerged and will be a major hazard for the CityCat service if it was to be extended upstream.

[Jonno]

Lone Pine zoo has a ferry from the city and it does not have issues.  I am with mufeight as well.

[ButFli]

Lone Pine zoo has a ferry from the city and it does not have issues.  I am with mufeight as well.

That is a boat that travels very slowly and does not create wash. I forgot to add that one to my list of objections - CityCats create wash that will cause erosion to the more-natural banks upstream of UQ. Downstream of UQ the banks are mostly reinforced with rocks and concrete and the river is wide.

Also there is only one boat to Lone Pine so the issue about passing doesn't apply. Plus it only stops at Lone Pine so the problem with the shallow water is only dealt with once (maybe there is a naturally deeper spot at Lone Pine?).

[#Metro]

Possibly. But then how did something as massive as Moggill Ferry get up the river?

[longboi]

Possibly. But then how did something as massive as Moggill Ferry get up the river?

It would have been put in the river at the same location it is now. You can't drive it like a boat!

[ozbob]

In my Army days, the Military Hospital was located on the river at Yeronga.  Cement barges, rather large regularly went up and down the river to Darra.  Ipswich used to have regular barges and passenger/freight steamers as well once. See --> http://www.ipswich.qld.gov.au/documents/heritage/education_kit_transport.pdf

There is nothing stopping CityCats for going upstream. It's a matter of practicality and the environmental considerations.  I remember when the cement barges went past Yeronga there was small waves but didn't do much damage at all.  The CityCats don't generate that much wash even at speed either.

[ozbob]

Click here -->http://maps.bonzle.com/c/a?a=pic&fn=95fvmus8&s=3


Quarry works on the banks of the Brisbane River at Darra, 1915. Train tracks (?) lead to a jetty. A workshed is in the cleared area and machinery is next to the jetty. This area later became known as Jindalee.

[#Metro]

There is nothing stopping CityCats for going upstream.

That excuse is now out of the way. Next one is Environmental and whether it it worth it.

Not sure how TL is doing their trip forecasting, but if they are comparing times to go to the CBD, this might not be as useful.
Many people would catch it just to go to UQ, West End or Toowong. If comparative CBD trip times are used, they might miss these
other trips which are more like cross town trips. Getting from Yeronga to UQ or Toowong might not be easy on a bus, or time competitive compared to a ferry. And I think TL/BCC might be missing that.

And this can't be dismissed. The busiest time for the CityCat is Sunday!

[ozbob]

The barges were seagoing vessels and made it up to Darra easily.  The Kyogle ( http://www.flotilla-australia.com/qldothers.htm#ql&c )was one of the early ones used for coral and it was around 700 tons.   The Darra was a large barge I recall. Huge, easily bigger than 4 CityCats from memory.

http://www.rag.org.au/mudis/qcl.htm

Synopsis

Community and political pressure to cease the extraction of dead coral limestone from Moreton Bay near Brisbane was a major factor contributing to the closure of Queensland Cement Limited's Darra cement plant in 1998. This paper investigates the management approach adopted by Queensland Cement Limited in exiting its Moreton Bay operations including the legislative scenario, the results of marine monitoring undertaken and the progress of community consultation efforts. Successes and learnings from this project are discussed within the context of a cement company pursuing its vision of world class environmental performance.

Introduction

Queensland Cement Limited (QCL) commenced production of cement in 1917 at the company's first plant at Darra in the western suburbs of Brisbane. Darra was chosen because of its isolation from residential areas and proximity to rail transport and the coalfields of Ipswich. Limestone was originally mined from reserves located at Gore, near Warwick.

The depletion of the limestone reserves at Gore in the 1930's and increasing production rates at Darra resulted in the substitution of dead coral from various deposits in Moreton Bay. The geologist investigating the coral and shell deposits at Mud Island wrote that:

"....the whole deposit is uniform in character, it is twenty feet or more in thickness over the area between high and low water marks, its physical and chemical conditions are most satisfactory, it occurs around the whole of the island, and to all intents and purposes must be regarded as virtually inexhaustible."

Dredging procedures had remained much the same over the 60 years of operation, with coral dredged at low tide and transferred to barge for the 64 kilometre voyage to QCL's Oxley Wharf facilities located on the upper reaches of the Brisbane River.

[ozbob]

closure of Queensland Cement Limited's Darra cement plant in 1998.

This was a big time for Darra.  I remember the day the towering chimney came down (1999).  There was a street closure and accommodation made for folks to view the collapse along the road next to the works. 

[Golliwog]

TT, I would agree, if the CityCat was to be extended further upstream, it wouldn't really be for city based trips but to cross the river or for shorter up and down river trips.

What are the dimensions of a CityCat? The Kyogle was Lbd: 180'1" x 30'1" x 12'. I don't think the length is important its more the breadth and depth that are the key dimensions that would effect the practicality side of things (ie: is the river wide enough and deep enough to have two CityCats pass each other, or would it require designated passing points?)

[ozbob]

The Moggill Ferry would have powered up the river.

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/4431212

Moggill Ferry

Henry Stanley was rowing people across the river in 1873. He held the lease, which set the fees for the service from 1881-1884. In the 1940s the ferry was motorised under the joint control of the Brisbane and Ipswich City Councils, [ [http://www.ourbrisbane.com/living/suburbs/moggill/history/ History of Moggill] , ourbrisbane .com, 22 December 2006 (accessed 22 December,2006)] that ferry which carried 4 cars at a time is now in the ferry reserve on the Moggill side of the river. Sometime in the 1970's a much larger vessel "Stradbroke Star" formerly servicing North Stradbroke Island, now plies the crossing.

[Otto]

In 1974, a large Gravel Barge slammed into the Centenary Bridge during the floods..

http://waywewere.couriermail.com.au/image-detail.php?search_field=35/K/105/3&offset=0&return=L3NlYXJjaC1yZXN1bHRzLnBocD9zZWFyY2hfZmllbGQ9MzUlMkZLJTJGMTA1JTJGMw==

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centenary_Bridge

[ozbob]

is the river wide enough and deep enough to have two CityCats pass each other,

No worries ..

[ozbob]

In 1974, a large Gravel Barge slammed into the Centenary Bridge during the floods..

I was in Brisbane during the 1974 floods. (One of the lessons living in Brisbane well learnt, when buying a house in Brisbane, two considerations for me. 1. Proximity to a rail line, 2. height above sea level and 1974 flood imprint).  Any way the barge was the Koala.

http://oceans1.customer.netspace.net.au/qld-main.html

Koala. Barge, ex-R.A.N. vessel. Jammed under Centenary Bridge  during flooding of the Brisbane River; scuttled when it threatened the bridge's safety,   January 1974.