The Future of the South East Busway

[#Metro]

7 day poll & post

What should the future of the South East Busway be? Somebody recently called for more buses for Browns Plains-UQ.
IIRC the SE busway is carrying more passengers than most rail lines (or at least has more seats passing a point than the rail lines) (feel free to challenge this).

While this looks great on an application to the Guinness Book of World records, the objective should be good PT.
Most buses are a direct trip to the CBD, off peak there are still many low frequency routes and during peak hour there are huge numbers of buses entering the CBD, which will only grow. IIRC there is a bus every 18 seconds or so. How much more room is there for growth in direct bus trips over the next 20-30 years in that? Is it really efficient having 1 bus for 65 people, when you could get a train with 1000 people and no driver on it running on that corridor every 2-3 minutes in peak hour, and every 4-5 minutes in the off peak.

I'll throw my hat into the ring. I think it should be converted to an automated surface metro. Buses can be recast as high frequency feeders.

[somebody]

Somebody recently called for more buses for Browns Plains-UQ.

Actually that was UQ-Gowan Rd.  I didn't say it needs to go all the way to Browns Plains.

I think it should be left more or less as is.  I.e. don't mess with the Woolloongabba station.  BUZ 100+110+120+180 (re-routed to cover more of Cavendish Rd) and a BUZ service on Logan Rd with a combined 174 & 175 probably on current routes, slight 130 changes to cover Hellawell Rd a proper train frequency on the Beenleigh line and 159 are the major changes required in the 1xx service area.  There is also rationalisation on the 13x and 15x corridors required.

[#Metro]

Apologies!

It may as well go to Browns Plains. The demand would be there IMHO.

[somebody]

Apologies!

It may as well go to Browns Plains. The demand would be there IMHO.

No worries.  Going completely off topic here, but I do not really see that it does need to do so.  The 139 terminates as soon as it reaches Beaudesert Rd.  You can easily interchange.  One of my suggested scenarios for the 150 corridor is to abolish the 150, 151, 157 and make the 153 (revised) and 156 the full time services for the corridor.  Perhaps add a City Precincts service running the entire corridor.  Perhaps add a south bank routing but I would be reluctant to accept that.

In any case enough people would have alighted from the 150 corridor service by Compton Rd for interchange to not be plagued by "Bus Full" problems.

[colinw]

I voted light rail, but consider that a longer term option with "bigger fish to fry" meanwhile.

As I see it, the South East Busway is going to choke on congestion effects very soon (if it is not already), as it is a two lane road trying to do the job of a dual track rail line (heavy or light).

The "single seat journey" syndrome means we're shoving too many local services down the busway, to then have them fan out into the suburbs often at useless frequencies.  If we concentrated more on a core busway service (with very high capacity buses), plus feeders, I think it would perform better. The problem 'though is that the the current design of stations doesn't support feeder services except at Garden City, as buses must go on to the busway to access the stations.

The busway is also taking up a lot of the slack for the missing rail line to Browns Plains.  If we developed rail down the interstate corridor to Greenbank, a number of BUZ routes could alter to be simple rail feeders.  The busway is not a particularly direct way of servicing Browns Plains, and the fast journey on the busway section doesn't particularly help services which must then crawl through the congestion across Warrigal Road via Runcorn, and often sit at the Warrigal Road level crossing for 2-3 minutes as well.

Finally, the busway is attempting to fill the role of the missing railway to Springwood & Loganholme, and that is what I think is where its ultimate future lines - a dual track light rail / light metro line to Logan Hyperdome, with high frequency local feeders leading in to properly designed interchange stations.

When I look at the busway, I often think "what if we had done it like Perth"?  Where the busway runs could have been our fast rail alignment from Beenleigh (Yatala) to the CBD, saving the Gold Coast services the Beenleigh line crawl.

[#Metro]

The "single seat journey" syndrome means we're shoving too many local services down the busway, to then have them fan out into the suburbs often at useless frequencies.  If we concentrated more on a core busway service (with very high capacity buses), plus feeders, I think it would perform better. The problem 'though is that the the current design of stations doesn't support feeder services except at Garden City, as buses must go on to the busway to access the stations.

This is true. The interesting fact is that most people do not get on the busway at a busway station, but they get on at a street stop. This has very important implications for rail feeder services, because it suggests that the low number of people being carried on QR trains is actually a result of (1) poor bus connections and (2) poor frequencies on those feeder buses, as well as (3) poor frequency in the off-peak as well.

Of course, putting more trains on in the off peak and putting more trains on as well should be easier than building new lines etc, because the rollingstock is already there left over from peak hour. The same should also be true of the buses- there should be surplus to cover these routes left over from peak hour and rocket services that do not run in the off peak.

[somebody]

I'm going to stick up for the busway here.

As I see it, the South East Busway is going to choke on congestion effects very soon (if it is not already), as it is a two lane road trying to do the job of a dual track rail line (heavy or light).

The Cultural Centre is already congested, but the rest of the busway isn't.  I have concerns about Buranda post Eastern Busway though.  Possibly there will be a need for more buses to express through this station, but a substantial number do already.  I feel that the main problem is the insistence that so many routes go through the Cultural Centre and this adds negative value.

The "single seat journey" syndrome means we're shoving too many local services down the busway, to then have them fan out into the suburbs often at useless frequencies. 

Not a big fan of feeder/trunk services.  If you are going to have such services, bus/bus interchange doesn't make much sense to me.  You should be changing for a form of transport which is both more efficient and faster, but in Australia rail doesn't seem to be run that way. 

There are also a lot of routes which don't add much value at all, the 184 in particular.  The system certainly needs a KISS.  I'm also not completely sure why we need so many routes around the Acacia Ridge area.

The busway is also taking up a lot of the slack for the missing rail line to Browns Plains.  If we developed rail down the interstate corridor to Greenbank, a number of BUZ routes could alter to be simple rail feeders.  The busway is not a particularly direct way of servicing Browns Plains, and the fast journey on the busway section doesn't particularly help services which must then crawl through the congestion across Warrigal Road via Runcorn, and often sit at the Warrigal Road level crossing for 2-3 minutes as well.

Don't think what you are suggesting would work for the Gowan Rd corridor.  It's too far away from the SG alignment, although some of the 13x services make sense to feed into such a line post CRR.

You are aware of the 140-142 services which sort out the indirect nature of the 150 to Browns Plains?


TT, of course poor rail frequency harms its patronage quite a bit.  But there is also the Merivale bridge routing, inconvenient location of the Central railway station (FV isn't too bad if you are heading there).  It's not just about the feeders.  All the bits have to work.

[#Metro]

TT, of course poor rail frequency harms its patronage quite a bit.  But there is also the Merivale bridge routing, inconvenient location of the Central railway station (FV isn't too bad if you are heading there).  It's not just about the feeders.  All the bits have to work.

This thread is about conversion of the SE busway into something else, and whether that is necessary, and if so, what that something should be.

In the narrow terms of busway conversion, The Merivale Bridge and Location of Central would not be relevant to this issue. Perhaps only in the Browns Plains area where feeding to direct CityTrain rail services  on a new Browns Plains line might have an advantage. However, even if this were not the case, you could still feed those buses into the converted busway, be it heavy rail, metro rail, light rail, super bus.

[ozbob]

I don't think the SE Busway will be ever converted to light rail.  It is simply carrying too much bus traffic and to stop that during a conversion would be unmanageable.  I think we might eventually see bi-artics on a modified bus-way set up one day.

Light rail or equivalent I think will evolve but as a system distinct from the essentially radial busway system.  The light rail system will be an inner city/inner suburban mass transit network possibly a combination of surface, elevation and some cut and cover tunnels.

[#Metro]

There are a number of possibilities, though there appears to be strong support for LRT judging by the poll.
I just think metro would be better as more people would be willing to put up with construction etc if they got
that than light rail, and the capacity is higher too.

I don't think the SE Busway will be ever converted to light rail.  It is simply carrying too much bus traffic and to stop that during a conversion would be unmanageable.  I think we might eventually see bi-artics on a modified bus-way set up one day.

Actually, this is one of the best reasons for conversion.
Let's take the alternative scenario- where we imagine a busway where not many buses are using the busway.
It would be easier to convert, but wouldn't be worthwhile. I mean, why convert a busway if it is being lightly used?

To jump back to the current situation- if the busway is being heavily used then that's a great reason to convert. It means less buses in the CBD and more buses which can be turned back to do another run.

My logic is that if the busway can be opened in sections/stages, then it can also be shut down in stages/sections as well. TransLink managed to do it when the Boggo Road busway was constructed and connected to the SE busway, which IIRC required single lane movements.

All the while we have been told how 'flexible' buses are and how they can run on roads and get around obstacles. Temporary Bus lanes could be placed on Logan road between Wooloongabba and Buranda. Many of the peak hour services are rockets which could run in temporary T2 lanes on the SE Freeway or Ipswich Road/Story Bridge.  Other services could be re-directed to railways with extra services to take the load. Between Mater Hill and Cultural Centre, bus lanes could be made out of the two-way couplet that is Cordelia and Merivale Streets (they are quite wide) and allow buses to access Cultural Centre.

[#Metro]

A well designed "rolling" scheme of diversions and closures, so that no more than two or three stations are out of action at any given time, coupled with well designed temporary bus lanes, will minimise disruption.

[ozbob]

All valid points TT.  The only bus-station built for light rail was Mater Hill.  Shortly after that light rail got kicked into touch.

As much as I would like to see light rail, I think there are other opportunities for that. The Eastern busway is further complicating the whole scenario as well.

[#Metro]

The only bus-station built for light rail was Mater Hill.

Really? I thought that was one of the "headache" stations to convert...

[ozbob]

Thought this might be of interest too ...

http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=4595

Premier
The Honourable Rob Borbidge

Monday, November 24, 1997

COALITION PUTS BRISBANE ON TRACK TOWARDS 21ST CENTURY

The State Government today announced a $200 million public transport infrastructure project for Brisbane.

Premier Rob Borbidge and Deputy Premier and Treasurer Joan Sheldon said the Government would initiate plans to construct a 15km light rail network to link New Farm, Teneriffe, Fortitude Valley, Newstead, West End, the City Centre, South Bank, the Royal Brisbane Hospital and the University of Queensland.

"This project represents a land use/transport vision for Brisbane which will revitalise inner Brisbane and provide the City with a world-class integrated transport system," the Premier said.

"The light rail network will encourage urban renewal and support the trend toward city living in the inner suburbs of New Farm, Newstead, Teneriffe and West End.

"It will further stimulate redevelopment of the commercial, retail and entertainment centre of the Valley, City centre and West End."

Mrs Sheldon said there would be major benefits for the tourism and business sectors.

"This system will promote business growth by encouraging customers back to the inner city's retail core," she said.

Mrs Sheldon said the project also held the exciting prospect of generating an additional 3000 jobs during construction with an ongoing boost to employment when it becomes operational.

The project's feasibility has been under investigation by a State Government Task Force headed by the Deputy Director General from the Department of the Premier and Cabinet for the past six months.

A variety of transport options have been considered and it is clear that the light rail system is the best alternative.

A firm of independent consultants, which examined the project's preliminary feasibility work, concluded that the project is financially viable and would prove attractive to private sector investment.

"Light rail is modern, advanced tram technology and can operate safely within existing streets," the Premier said.

"This light rail network would reduce air and noise emission levels in the inner city, reduce traffic volumes and congestion and increase public transport usage."

It is expected to carry more than 40,000 passengers each day with services running as frequently as every five minutes in peak periods. The network will complement existing public transport services.

The Premier said that the project is part of the State Government's Integrated Regional Transport Plan for South East Queensland.

It is intended that the network will integrate with other public transport modes at key interchanges including the regional busway network, Citytrain and City Cat ferries.

A coordinated ticketing system would allow seamless transfers between all public transport modes with one ticket able to be used on trains, buses, ferries and light rail.

The light rail vehicles will combine traditional style trams with modern articulated vehicles. All vehicles will incorporate modern features including air conditioning and access for people with disabilities.

"There will also be opportunities for Heritage trams owned by the Brisbane tramway Museum to operate on the network during the weekends," the Premier said.

The light rail project has been proposed to the Commonwealth Government as the number 1 priority project for Queensland for funding under the Commonwealth's $1 billion Federation Fund.

Mr Borbidge said this light rail system would be one of the largest infrastructure projects ever undertaken in the State.

"The State Government is very enthusiastic about this project and hopes to gain full support from the community," he said.

"Following my announcement today, consultation with Brisbane City Council and key stakeholders will begin.

"The State Government Taskforce will advance the project, with the aim of having the system operational by the Centenary of Federation in 2001."

[#Metro]

"This project represents a land use/transport vision for Brisbane which will revitalise inner Brisbane and provide the City with a world-class integrated transport system," the Premier said.

It never ceases to amaze me how the authorities talk about integration as some holy grail, seemingly oblivious
to the realisation that integration = transfers (i.e. passengers physically hopping off one vehicle to another).

A firm of independent consultants, which examined the project's preliminary feasibility work, concluded that the project is financially viable and would prove attractive to private sector investment.

Sometimes I think that this is another example of cost-benefit analysis being calculated to mean whatever the proposer wants it to mean. First light rail was feasable, then it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't then mass transit report 2007 came in, and it wasn't feasible on any route, even through West End (which I find hard to believe).

"This system will promote business growth by encouraging customers back to the inner city's retail core," she said.

This is one of the problems I see with these bypasses. It makes shopping at Chermside and Indooroopilly much more attractive than, say the CBD. Not saying that this is a good or a bad thing, but just pointing out that it may affect shopping businesses in the CBD IMHO.

The State Government today announced a $200 million public transport infrastructure project for Brisbane.

I can't bear to read this statement, I just can't. Look at how cheap it is!!!
That is roughly equivalent to $280 million in today's dollars.

[ozbob]

And ...

http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=6368

Premier
The Honourable Rob Borbidge

Saturday, April 25, 1998

PREMIER ANNOUNCES BRIZTRAM ROUTE

Premier Rob Borbidge today released details of the preferred route for Brisbane's 21st Century Briztram light rail network.

The preferred network will link Fortitude Valley, Newstead, West End, the City centre, South Bank, the Royal Brisbane Hospital, Roma Street and the University of Queensland. The network will be about 14km long and cost around $230m.

"The selection of the preferred network is the culmination of extensive work and consultation," the Premier said.

"The Government has clearly listened to the community and we have ruled out some route options which were causing concern.

"These include the use of the Brunswick Street mall, crossing the Queen Street mall and the Dutton Park route.

"Now that we have one network to examine in more detail, we can look more closely at local issues and maximising benefits to residents and businesses."

Network alternatives were released on 25 February and since then considerable community interest has been shown and feedback has been received on all options.

"We have been delighted with both the level of support and interest in the project," the Premier said. "One of the key factors in choosing the preferred network was integration with other public transport modes."

"The network will allow scope for extensions and when we receive proposals from the private sector these may well receive further consideration.

"One of the attractive features of the network is the possible extensions by the option of joint use of busways by trams and buses."

The Premier said that the Government is well on track to meet the commitment to call expressions of interest on 1 May. This will ensure that the system will be operational by the end of 2001.

The Prime Minister's $65m commitment has given the project a real boost.

"In this lead-up to the expressions of interest process, we have concentrated on getting the detailed studies in place. The planning, demand forecasting and financial analysis all show that this project is a winner."

Apart from the 3000 jobs the project will create, the improved accessibility in the city will benefit shoppers, workers, tourists and residents. The demand forecasting work confirms that over 45,000 people will benefit every day from the system.

"I have said all along that Briztram is a land use/transport vision for Brisbane which will provide the city with a world-class integrated transport system and encourage urban renewal and redevelopment in the inner city."

"The private sector are chomping at the bit to put in to develop the system and in a week's time they will have their chance when we call for expressions of interest."

"Obviously the support of the Brisbane City Council is important as they will be a major beneficiary of this proposal, the Premier said.

"Despite the overwhelming support for the project so far from the community, business and industry, the Lord Mayor continues to criticise this visionary public transport solution to the Brisbane's increasing transport problems. I am hopeful that he will begin to see the light and recall his earlier commitment to light rail following his overseas trip."

The preferred network can be viewed and comments lodged until 26 May 1998 at:

The corner of Melbourne and Manning Streets, South Brisbane (between 8.30am and 5.00pm).

Shop Eight, TC Beirne Building, Brunswick Street Mall, Fortitude Valley (between 9.00am and 3.00pm) and

The Queensland Transport Customer Service Centre, Anzac Square, 202 Adelaide Street, the City (between 8.30am and 4.30pm).

Further information can also be obtained by calling 1800 809 972 or assessing the Briztram Internet site on www.briztram.qld.gov.au.

25 April 1998

[#Metro]

The preferred network will link Fortitude Valley, Newstead, West End, the City centre, South Bank, the Royal Brisbane Hospital, Roma Street and the University of Queensland. The network will be about 14km long and cost around $230m.

Just 16 million per kilometre!

"In this lead-up to the expressions of interest process, we have concentrated on getting the detailed studies in place. The planning, demand forecasting and financial analysis all show that this project is a winner."

"Despite the overwhelming support for the project so far from the community, business and industry, the Lord Mayor continues to criticise this visionary public transport solution to the Brisbane's increasing transport problems. I am hopeful that he will begin to see the light and recall his earlier commitment to light rail following his overseas trip."

Brisbane City Council. If they are not on board, it will not work. It will be hard since they run the bus system.

[somebody]

Seems that things could just have been done cheaper back then.  Not sure what it is, but I suspect that land values and insurance premiums are the killers.

[Golliwog]

Or dodgy estimates.

[#Metro]

I'm not sure how land values would affect the program.
Most of it I would think ran on the street- so it would take existing lanes, not require new ones AIUI.

Using Gold Coast light rail estimates, the cost would be about 14km x 30 million/km = 420 million
add 50% margin would take it to $630 million max.