Survey working out: Route 411

[#Metro]

Route length to Toowong: 4.5 km
Route length to Adelaide St: 8.5 km
Difference: 8.5 - 4.5 km = 4 km
(Measured in Google earth, rounded up to 0.5 km)

Route 411 bus timetable here http://download.translink.com.au/timetables/080519_411.pdf

Weekdays:
38 services x 4 km = 152 km of route-km saved

New services possible:
152 route-km saved divided by 4.5 km bus route is 33 new services

Services overall under feeder: 38 existing + 33 new = 71 buses/day


Saturday
27 services x 4km = 108 route-km saved

New services possible:
108 route-km saved divided by 4.5 km bus route is 24 new services

Services overall under feeder: 27 services existing + 24 = 51 buses/day

Sunday
13 services x 4km = 52 route-km saved

New services possible:
52 route-km saved divided by 4.5km bus route is 11 new services

Services overall under feeder: 13 existing + 11 new services = 24 buses/day

[#Metro]

Frequency allocation of newly generated feeder services.

[#Metro]

Survey timetable

[O_128]

great idea as long as it is timed to meet the train then i see no problem.

[#Metro]

great idea as long as it is timed to meet the train then i see no problem.

Look closely and you will see for weekdays, it is only a few services short of BUZ frequency.
As it is not quite a BUZ and is a feeder service, a new name is required....


... after much thinking, I would suggest perhaps calling it a FUZ: Feeder Upgrade Zone

(No, not serious about the naming; Just for fun!!!) 

[somebody]

I see where you are going with this thinking, but we could just as easily upgrade the frequency of the CBD routing which would be far more popular with the users of the service, I would suggest.

[Golliwog]

I think I'm with TT on this one. Once the 411 is at Toowong they can easily change to the train, the 444, 412 or any of the other Coro Drive routes. Despite the slightly longer routing this bus is used by UQ students who have missed the previous 412 and can't be bothered waiting for the next (mostly only in the off-peak)

[somebody]

I think I'm with TT on this one. Once the 411 is at Toowong they can easily change to the train, the 444, 412 or any of the other Coro Drive routes. Despite the slightly longer routing this bus is used by UQ students who have missed the previous 412 and can't be bothered waiting for the next (mostly only in the off-peak)

I would say less than easily heading inbound.  A feeder 411 would need to stop on the outbound side of Benson St (Coro) like the 402, so then you need to decide if you are going to head over the bridge for the train, over the road for the 412, or over 2 roads for the from Indooroopilly routes.

I think rail frequency needs to be sorted first, then there will be an obvious interchange.

[Golliwog]

Well it depends on what the buses next run is, half the time the 402 to Toowong will drop you on the Inbound side as its next run isn't back to the uni. But I do agree about the train frequency, but still 15 minute off peak isn't bad.

[#Metro]

I see where you are going with this thinking, but we could just as easily upgrade the frequency of the CBD routing which would be far more popular with the users of the service, I would suggest.

This is not an option. I have assumed that extra finances available = $0.00 for this hypothetical scenario.
Just reminding, the task imagines that you live on Hawken drive, near the roundabout, (see nearmap) and that you work in the CBD.

[somebody]

Well it depends on what the buses next run is, half the time the 402 to Toowong will drop you on the Inbound side as its next run isn't back to the uni. But I do agree about the train frequency, but still 15 minute off peak isn't bad.

Fair enough about the 402.

The 15 minute frequency is pretty weak on the trains.  Only until 7pm or so on a weekday, and not on weekends, when the trains are sometimes quite busy.

[Golliwog]

Hmmm, but the 15 minute train frequency would match what TT's  idea is coming up with. As a FG commuter a 15 min frequency is still a heck of a lot better than what we have, despite it being entirely possible (see the timetable from 6am to 7am: they do that using only one platform at FG).

IMO if the frequencies of the 411 Toowong to UQ and the Ipswich line match it shouldn't be too hard to timetable it so they connect. Next question is of course, do you go to meet the inbound or outbound trains?

[somebody]

I have assumed that extra finances available = $0.00 for this hypothetical scenario.

I understand you are assuming this, but I feel that it would be better to get extra cash from improvements elsewhere in the system, such as canning the little used 393, re-routing the 199 via Ivory St (which is shorter).  Also, putting in service the counter peak 331/332/341s and curtailing 66 frequency (oohh, controversial!!)

Seems that it is OK to waste money so long as it has always been done that way.  Or was part of the Lord Mayor's 2007 report.

[#Metro]

This is a good discussion, because it is good to see how people are weighing up their choices when the options available and trade offs are made explicit.

I would like to say a few more things about FUZzing the 411 direct bus route, however I will hold off on this until after the survey has been completed. I intend to run another scenario soon, with a slightly altered situation.

[#Metro]

I understand you are assuming this, but I feel that it would be better to get extra cash from improvements elsewhere in the system, such as canning the little used 393, re-routing the 199 via Ivory St (which is shorter).  Also, putting in service the counter peak 331/332/341s and curtailing 66 frequency (oohh, controversial!!)

Seems that it is OK to waste money so long as it has always been done that way.  Or was part of the Lord Mayor's 2007 report.

I know that this is a hypothetical scenario, but it is not too far from reality.
I don't know how many bus routes there are in Brisbane, there must be hundreds of them.
Unfortunately, it's not financially possible to upgrade every single one or even a substantial number into BUZ or even close to that standard while continuing to maintain direct service. 

Assume that there is no cash available  for extra direct services.

1. It must not increase funding required, that is the cost to do it must be = $0 *
2. It must increase 'welfare', that is the change applied must represent an improvement on the status quo.

* In the real world, this rule must be relaxed slightly as there is a minimal cost involved in printing a new timetable for instance.

So it is possible to do much more with less...

[somebody]

the change applied must represent an improvement on the status quo.

I feel that your suggested change here is a very debatable improvement.  It would be different if there was an appropriate train frequency at Toowong.  Getting from the Creek St side of town to Toowong doesn't have that many nice options, unless the time you want to go actually lines up with the train.  If coming from the centre of Queen St mall then you do have some reasonable options, but you pretty much need to know the timetables OTOH to work out the best one.  Annoying.

[#Metro]

I understand that it is debatable- which is why the survey is being
run  

To test whether people perceive FUZzing as a net overall improvement to the route
or put another way, whether people will trade increased frequency against direct service.

That's what I hope to get a bit of an insight through this poll.
Already some points raised seems to suggest that the quality and frequency of the connection is very important, which suggests that
there may be a tipping point...

... obviously more info in this area to tease out where that point is, is required.

[#Metro]

If you wanted to use a bus, you could just hop on the trunk route 444 and then change at Toowong to 411 or rail.
Not hard, very frequent. And that is every 15 minutes from 6am to 11pm.

I guess that is why I wanted people to imagine living there (I guess this is hard to do). When you're living there, you would have to take into account what you want to do on the weekend, your options for evenings, what choices you have (should i take the train or transfer to 444?) etc etc.

Boosted train frequency is helpful and strongly desired, but not critical in this scenario IMHO, as Golliwog pointed out, you can transfer to bus too.

[somebody]

very frequent.

I don't really consider every 15 minutes to be "very frequent".  Perhaps I have been spoiled.  I am somewhat used to the 373 (in Sydney) service which comes every 7-8 minutes on a Sunday from 10am-3pm, and combines with the 377 for a 10 minute service at around 10pm on a weeknight.  Also, the CityRail peak service which had a train to Parramatta from Wynyard on a timetable like this:
5:42pm Fast to Penrith
5:45pm Richmond
5:48pm Slow to Blacktown
(6:02pm train leaves Sydney Terminal - connect from train about 5:50-5:52pm)
6:00pm Penrith
6:07pm Slow to Blacktown
6:14pm Richmond
6:21pm Fast to Penrith
6:30pm (Can't remember)

Perhaps I have been spoiled by having a decent service previously.

[#Metro]

I don't really consider every 15 minutes to be "very frequent".  Perhaps I have been spoiled.

Sydney trains! Something that we can only dream about in Brisbane.

Hmm. The only thing more frequent than a BUZ on a weekend might be CityGlider!
For frequencies of 10 minutes or below, you would have to look to Melbourne Trams.

Interestingly Sydney's Metro bus "high frequency" seems to amount to 20 minutes on a weekend an evening.

No timetable required – high-frequency service running seven days a week, with a 10-minute frequency during peak periods, every 15 minutes during the weekday off-peak, and 20 minutes in the evening and on weekends.

http://www.sydneybuses.info/metrobus

[somebody]

Interestingly Sydney's Metro bus "high frequency" seems to amount to 20 minutes on a weekend an evening.

They have taken the bad parts of BUZ and left the good parts.  They have completely missed the point.

[#Metro]

Does it have a common interchange point?
Good to see through-routing though.

[somebody]

Does it have a common interchange point?

Yes, at Park St.  But no integrated fares without buying a weekly ticket.

Good to see through-routing though.

I think this is done due to limited layover areas in the CBD

[STB]

I'm not in favour of the 411 option of being forced to change at Toowong.  For one main reason, you would need to allow at least 7mins for the transfer to happen, 5mins grace to meet the train and 2mins to get to the platform, and vice versa, in this time you could be almost in the city by then.

It's bad planning principals to have feeders this close to the city.

[somebody]

It's bad planning principals to have feeders this close to the city.

I agree.

[#Metro]

Well that's funny, I just went shopping there just now and it didn't take me that long to do a transfer!  
I'm just interested in seeing what people's thought are on the direct trip/frequency issue.

More info needed in this area.

(Should penalties are applied to take into account 15 minutes of being stuck in traffic jams on Coro drive?)

[Golliwog]

I'm assuming the 7mins is to allow for both walking between the bus and the train, but also in case either 411 or the train is running early/late? I can see the point though. Especially if Coro drive is to get its bus lanes back.

[#Metro]

I think it will be interesting actually, we might be all surprised...
Took another trip this afternoon.

PM towards the CBD, peak hour
It takes 6 minutes comfortably to walk from the bus stop on Benson St,
cross the traffic light (I just missed the red flash, had to wait for next cycle)
walk up the ramp and through the gates and down on to the platforms.

So 5 mins grace, maybe but 2 mins to get to the platform, probably not required...
Is it bad planning?... Well, route 402 is a feeder bus so by that logic 402 should be extended to the CBD to give
a direct trip...

The train came in 4 minutes
So in total: 10 minutes to transfer.
The train trip took another 12 minutes to get to Central.

Total trip time with transfer from Benson St Toowong Stop (measured from Benson St Stop):
22 minutes to Central (411 Timetable puts the bus as arriving in 25 minutes CBD, assuming no 15 min jams on Coro AIUI)

NOTE: I haven't included time waiting for the bus at the Hawken bus stop... the hypothetical
feeder would probably save another ~ 5 minutes over the direct service option when this is included.

[#Metro]

Notes:

* When you compare, say Park Road Interchange where the bus comes right up to the station over-bridge entrance and transfer takes, what, 2 minutes? The design of the facilities at Toowong for interchange is terrible!

* Beware of Coro Drive!!! Someone was having their car pushed around the corner into Moggill Road ;
The car had stalled for some reason and traffic was starting to bank up behind them. The genesis of a large traffic jam was there.

* The rail trip was comfortable. I had a good seat.
On the bus you might be standing and you can't read. (maybe it is time to think about light rail down Coro Drive to Indro or UQ?)

Overall

Transfer to rail will be faster (but only just) and more reliable (definitely?) IMHO, but not by a huge margin.
If you just want to go to the shops at Toowong or start/finish work there 411 feeder might be good with the frequency, especially off peak and on weekends.

Although on the weekends the train frequency isn't so flash (so somebody is right, increased train frequency WILL help very much).
But even then, in this case you can transfer the BUZ 412.

The hypothetical 411 feeder might be better actually transferring passengers and feeding the trunk BUZ 412, rather than the rail station in this weekend/off peak case. The BUZ 412 is frequent, all day every day and on weekends. It's every 15 minutes like the train like the train should be on weekends.

It is also shares the same bus stop, so the interchange is much better than walking to the rail station (walking time, grace time and time to get on the platform for transfer to 412 = nil).

The only problem with transfers to 412 is that it still runs down Coro Drive.
But on weekends the chance of a traffic jam is low IMHO

[#Metro]

Will try again another time on the bus, all the way!!!

[#Metro]

Yes, at Park St.  But no integrated fares without buying a weekly ticket.

The rail services are good; The PT fares are completely ripoff IMHO, and the use of fare sections was confusing.

[somebody]

Is it bad planning?... Well, route 402 is a feeder bus so by that logic 402 should be extended to the CBD to give a direct trip...

Not quite.  The 402 is similar to the 66.  The 66's trip can be made with an easy interchange, but it is there to provide for surge capacity.  It is similar with the 402.  The 412 allows the same trip to be made as a single seat journey (ignoring the awful city stop location).

[#Metro]

Not quite.  The 402 is similar to the 66.  The 66's trip can be made with an easy interchange, but it is there to provide for surge capacity.  It is similar with the 402.  The 412 allows the same trip to be made as a single seat journey (ignoring the awful city stop location).

So a feeder bus to rail is OK within 10 km of the CBD if it is prefaced on "surge"/peak hour capacity arguments?
If we assume 411 terminating at Toowong, and knowing that a lot of people get off at Toowong on the 412, there probably would be space to take those people.

I think that while 402 is useful for dealing with surge capacity, it is also a feeder bus to Toowong and Toowong rail.
There are no surges on Saturday, and 402 still runs. Its a slower all stops service too.

411 also has a stop that is in a different location to the CBD. IMHO this isn't helpful...

[Golliwog]

I don't know about now as I no longer frequently use the 109/412 stop in the city as I can now far more easily change at Park Rd, but the 411 used to also serve that stop (inbound at least). Also the stop they have is not in that bad a location. Its and easy walk straight down Adelaide street to Central.

[#Metro]

Just seeing whether people would prefer to have a higher frequency & shorter trip or a lower frequency and a direct trip...

It is possible to transfer to buses (412, 444 4XX) and rail.

[#Metro]

I don't know about now as I no longer frequently use the 109/412 stop in the city as I can now far more easily change at Park Rd, but the 411 used to also serve that stop (inbound at least). Also the stop they have is not in that bad a location. Its and easy walk straight down Adelaide street to Central.

Park Road is an excellent interchange. IIRC this has already gone into TL's achievements thread.
Toowong is pretty bad for interchange I will say.

*Not covered
* Have to walk across two large and busy arterial traffic lanes
* Go up a few ramps and you can't even see or know the station is there from the bus stop.
* The kerb does not meet the road level. It is a straight drop. If you are in a wheelchair, you have to cross benson st and then go via that long overbridge ramp.

Not the best place... but people do it.

[somebody]

There are no surges on Saturday, and 402 still runs. Its a slower all stops service too.

Both of these points are things which don't make sense to me.  The 412 makes much more sense to serve all stops along Sir Fred Schonell Drive and beyond.

I don't know about now as I no longer frequently use the 109/412 stop in the city as I can now far more easily change at Park Rd, but the 411 used to also serve that stop (inbound at least). Also the stop they have is not in that bad a location. Its and easy walk straight down Adelaide street to Central.

I'd think that would be a 10 minute walk.

411/416/417/433/445/471 all stop at North Quay stop 15 around the corner inbound, but nothing nearby outbound.

Just seeing whether people would prefer to have a higher frequency & shorter trip or a lower frequency and a direct trip...

It is possible to transfer to buses (412, 444 4XX) and rail.

The proposed transfer is awfully annoying.  A nicer transfer may be different.

[Golliwog]

Yeah I think part of the problem with the interchange there is that the station is under the shopping center, so to change the layout you would need to consult with them and I don't think they would be too happy with closing of places while its redone.

One option could be that as the platforms almost come out into the open on the Ipswich end, you could maybe extend them a bit and have a new entrace where the current underpass under the road is near the outbound 444 stop which would also be right next to the inbound 412/411. Would make it harder to seal off the station though as you would now have 2 entrances.

Yeah my one complaint with the Park Rd interchange is the trains. Going to UQ I'll change there, but going home I will usually go all the way to the city as in peak not all the Ferny trains go through Park Rd, a bunch start at Roma St. Plus I like to do a bit of shopping sometimes.

[somebody]

Hear here, Golliwog for your Park Rd comments.  What is needed is a far more frequent service Roma St-Park Rd counter peak.  More so for Milton, actually.

With Toowong, I was more thinking of the way you have to pick between 3 different places to get a service from as being the annoying part of that transfer.  If the proposed 411 was always traveling via Glen Rd (I think) and there was an 8 minute service on the train, you would then know you need to use the pedestrian overpass.  What is annoying about that overpass is that it lacks a set of stairs and you must use the ramp even if able bodied.

[#Metro]

Would it be possible to extend the platform of Toowong station right out into the open?
Imagine it for a moment.

You could then put a lift or stairs down onto the extended platforms and cover it.
That way interchange would be much easier. No need to cross the road.

If this is hard to imagine, think about the way access to platforms 2 and 3 is done at South Bank Rail Station
where the ramps come off the Vulture Street Bridge and go down on to the platform.