Terms of use Privacy About us Media Contact

Links

Author Topic: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?  (Read 4900 times)

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19918
SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« on: September 05, 2010, 11:24:27 AM »
Your thoughts.
Poll will close in 7 days.

If you support, which roads or corridors should it go?
If you don't, say why?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 07:33:43 AM by ozbob »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

somebody

  • Guest
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 12:17:07 PM »
There aren't many places light rail would be appropriate.  Are you thinking of West End/New Farm?  Maybe, but how are you getting around the Valley/Storey Bridge and across the river?

Offline Jonno

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1946
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 01:00:07 PM »
Every major road is appropriate for light rail.  We just have to educate the general public that giving road space to public transport is the best thing for our city not a personal attack on their freedoms and the great Australian way of life.!!!

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19918
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 01:00:38 PM »
Its an open question.
People can make suggestions.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

somebody

  • Guest
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2010, 01:20:51 PM »
Every major road is appropriate for light rail.  We just have to educate the general public that giving road space to public transport is the best thing for our city not a personal attack on their freedoms and the great Australian way of life.!!!
So, Moggill Rd to Moggill via Coro?
Old Northern Rd to Albany Creek via Kelvin Grove Rd?
Over the Centenary Bridge?

For Logan Rd & Gympie Rd, maybe.

Offline Jonno

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1946
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 01:30:13 PM »
Yep.  Light rail (and bus lanes for that matter) complements the line haul transit routes by providing more local/shorter trip setvies, cross-town connections, etc.  It will of course take time.  Lets start with bus lanes on all these roads, Buz routes and then even further capacity is required then convert them to light rail.

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 87309
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 03:44:57 PM »
I am of the view that Light Rail is a serious future option for Brisbane.   I am not confident that a subway (true metro) will be built, although flagged in the draft Connecting SEQ 2031.  More likely is a continued underground expansion of the heavy rail network, augmented by bus and light rail.

The Greens Light rail proposal for Brisbane, although interesting is possibly not going to get up on the busways as flagged.  The busways will be left intact for BRT.

What is a possibility is a combination surface and underground (cut and cover) light rail network on existing roads.  I would not be surprised to see progressive car restrictions on access to inner areas of Brisbane.  

Vision --> Canada Line

Quote
Canada Line is a rapid transit line in the Metro Vancouver region of British Columbia, Canada. Opened in August 2009, it is the third line in TransLink's SkyTrain metro network, servicing Vancouver, Richmond, and the Vancouver International Airport. It is coloured turquoise on route maps.

The Canada Line comprises 19.2 kilometres (11.8 mi) of track; the main line goes from Vancouver to Richmond, while a 4 km spur line from Bridgeport Station connects to the airport.[1] Originally scheduled to open on November 30, 2009, it opened fifteen weeks ahead of the original schedule, well in advance of the 2010 Winter Olympics in February.[2]

The Canada Line was anticipated to see 100,000 boardings per day in 2013, and 142,000 boardings per day by 2021, but it has exceeded these targets.[3] Ridership has grown steadily since opening day, with average ridership of 83,000/day in September 2009;[4] 93,000/day in December 2009; [5] and 105,000/day in March 2010.[6] During the 2010 Winter Olympics, the line's ridership increased a further 118 per cent to an average of 228,190 per day over the 17-day event.[7]

Quote
The Canada Line begins in Downtown Vancouver at Waterfront Station (0.0 km) in a cut-and-cover subway tunnel beneath Granville Street. It quickly transitions into twin bored tunnels, heading southwest beneath Granville Street, then curving southeast to follow Davie Street through Yaletown. The tunnels then dive deeper to pass below False Creek before rising back up to Olympic Village Station  (2.7 km). There, the line transitions back to a cut-and-cover tunnel (which is noted by the tunnel going from being circular to square shaped) heading south under Cambie Street, some portions of which have the two sets of tracks stacked vertically on separate levels. The line finally emerges from the ground just south of 64th Avenue, climbing to an elevated guideway.[11]
Canada Line bridge over the Fraser River.

The line continues elevated across the North Arm Bridge over the North Arm of the Fraser River, leaving Vancouver and entering Richmond. Just beyond Bridgeport Station (11.1 km), the line splits, with the Richmond branch heading south on elevated tracks along No. 3 Road and terminating at Richmond–Brighouse Station (14.5 km). The airport branch turns west and crosses the Middle Arm Bridge over the Middle Arm of the Fraser River, connecting to stations on Sea Island and terminating at YVR–Airport Station (15.0 km). Portions of the airport branch are at-grade in order to accommodate a future elevated taxiway for aircraft over the line. Both branches narrow to a single track as they approach their respective terminus stations. Just before the Bridgeport Station is the OMC (Operations and Maintenance Centre) facility which houses the trains when not in use.

What this demonstrates is the flexibility in route options (tunnels, surface, elevation) and the sheer capacity.  


« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 04:12:46 PM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

somebody

  • Guest
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 05:14:50 PM »
I would not be surprised to see progressive car restrictions on access to inner areas of Brisbane.  
You mean more than transit/bus lanes?  I'd be surprised to see that.

That Canada line carries twice the 199!  That's heaps.  I guess take up of PT probably isn't as good in Brissie.  Look at the Airtrain.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19918
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 01:16:27 PM »
This poll will be closing soon.  :-t
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19918
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2010, 10:57:38 PM »
I caught 199 today in peak hour. Another 199 pulled up a few seconds later, right behind my bus.
Got on the bus- completely packed to the rafters with people. Crowded trip though to New Farm.

It dawned on me. This is so ridiculous, still boarding through 1 door, not enough capacity. Brisbane just needs to get Light Rail, on the street or underground in the CBD, I don't care. Something that has a capacity of 300 pax at least.

Rail. Light and heavy!!!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 11:07:14 PM by tramtrain »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline BribieG

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 102
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2010, 11:53:15 AM »
Light rail involves ripping up existing streets and creating congestion along whole corridors whilst under construction. The infrastructure is expensive. I was recently in Wellington NZ and it strikes me that these little fellahs serve the same function as light rail as well as being more maneuverable in the street. They only require stringing up the streets with a network of overhead wiring which I reckon could be done in months not years. As you can see they are unobtrusive and dont cause 'aerial eyesore'. Power can be specified from green sources. No contribution to smog in Brisbane's smog hollow. And the units are made in NZ so would be readily available - or shock horror we could make them here.  :-w





 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 11:58:04 AM by ozbob »

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 87309
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2010, 11:57:04 AM »
Welcome BribieG! 

Quote
Light rail involves ripping up existing streets and creating congestion along whole corridors whilst under construction. The infrastructure is expensive.

Not necessarily, many cut and cover light rail networks underway around the world.  Trolley buses have their uses, but the sheer capacity of light rail is a winner.  Actually has very low operating costs.  This is why light rail is being rolled out on the Gold Coast.  Pity the trolley buses went from Brisbane as did the trams.  Melbourne's tram network is now carrying 200 million passenger trips annually and booming. 

Trolley buses might be an option for the busways?

 8)
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline BribieG

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 102
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2010, 12:16:26 PM »
bob are you the Congestion Capital guy? if so I love your CM posts  :-t

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 87309
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2010, 02:18:44 PM »
 ;)  thanks ...
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

somebody

  • Guest
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2010, 02:28:10 PM »
Trolleybuses have merit on the face of it, but then the world has gone away from that, I'm guessing due to the lack of flexibility that they have.  Probably increasing reliability of the internal combustion engine is a big factor too.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19918
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2010, 03:46:22 PM »
Quote
Light rail involves ripping up existing streets and creating congestion along whole corridors whilst under construction. The infrastructure is expensive.

I disagree with this.
Any infrastructure is expensive, that's why it is the state's job to provide it.
The cheapest public transport system, is no system at all.
Cars are supposed to be the most 'flexible' transport around, it should be well within their abilities to detour around work sites.

On that note, I think trolleybuses have a place in Brisbane and should return.
Mount Coo-tha, Spring Hill, the back of Toowong, St Lucia and Paddington spring to mind.


Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline BribieG

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 102
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2010, 04:20:59 PM »
Yes they can certainly take the hills, I was brought up in Newcastle on Tyne in the 1950s and the old yellow double decker trolleybuses could handle steep inclines like Denton Bank just fine. The forthcoming new system in Leeds, Yorkshire is based on buses that will take 160 passengers.

linky: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/6447960/Trolleybuses-set-to-return-to-Britain-after-40-years.html

The video is worth a look as well, verrrry light rail-ish you would have to say  :D

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19918
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2010, 04:30:50 PM »
Thanks for this!
Yes, it would be good.

Trolleybuses are a step up in service level and quality than normal buses. Much quieter (silent probably) and can handle hills very well- good for a number of specific locations in Brisbane. This is why I think they should return.

They are a bit more expensive than a normal bus, but AIUI, they also last a bit longer too. Brisbane ran both trams and trolleybuses as part of its pre-1969 network, so I don't see them as competing. Trolleybuses are especially good where it isn't practical to put a tram in.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 87309
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2010, 05:20:21 AM »
Media Release 25th September 2010

SEQ 2031: Don't miss the tram!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has welcomed the Draft Connecting SEQ 2031 document but notes that Light Rail options for Brisbane are missing. Rail Back on Track asks that Light Rail solutions for Brisbane be considered in the final SEQ 2031 document.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Light Rail is an efficient, comfortable and high capacity public transport service that deserves to be considered for Brisbane. Light rail is operating in Melbourne, Adelaide, Sydney and is to be built on the Gold Coast."

"The number of  passenger journeys being taken on Melbourne's Yarra Trams is pushing 180 million annually, which is more than Brisbane's buses and trains combined. (1) "

"The Adelaide Light Rail service has had extensions and extensions are being planned for the Sydney Light Rail service."

"Brisbane's BUZ lines and major road corridors should be considered for upgrading to surface Light Rail in the Connecting 2031 document. Compared to bus lanes on roads, the strengths of Light Rail are the ability to stimulate Transit-Oriented Development, the increased comfort of the ride, zero local exhaust emissions and its high capacity on streets without expensive grade-separation."

"Recent media reports (2) about increasing bus operator cost pressures on the Brisbane City Council, highlight the growing need for a labour-efficient mode of public transport. Light Rail is that mode, and can be adjusted to meet demand, through the linking of multiple vehicles into light rail 'trains' (3)."

"Brisbane City Council once proudly operated a very well patronised tram service, and it can do so again as a modern light rail network. The future for Brisbane's sustainable mass transit is rail light and heavy, supported by an integrated network of high frequency feeder buses (4)."

References:

1. Facts and Figures, Yarra Trams http://www.yarratrams.com.au/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-47//74_read-117/

2. 'Bus Boom causes council staff crunch', Brisbane Times, 15 September 2010
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/bus-boom-causes-council-staff-crunch-20100914-15atl.html

3. Melbourne visit August 2010 http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4195.msg31267#msg31267

4. Mar 2010: SEQ: Rail - light and heavy is the sustainable transport solution
 http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3534.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19918
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2010, 08:24:36 AM »

This is what they do in the US when they want to increase capacity- simply add more Light Rail Vehicles on.
So this is a 3 vehicle train- the combined capacity is around 513 passengers. And it just runs down the street.
No need for expensive tunnel or elevated structures...

If something like this was run every 2 minutes (I don't know any corridors that would need this- maybe coronation drive):

512 pax train x 30 tph = 15, 360 pphd, which is capacity comparable to the SE busway at AM peak hour.
A lot has been said about "tram on tyres", well this is busway on steel wheels, on the street.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 08:32:01 AM by tramtrain »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 87309
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2010, 08:48:00 AM »
Melbourne August 2010

Articulated tram turning into Spencer St in front of Southern Cross Station




Articulated tram turning onto the St Kilda light rail line from Fitzroy Street




Spencer St Melbourne tram and traffic




Tram passing through Middle Park station at speed 5th August 2010



Photography R Dow August 2010
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19918
Re: SEQ 2031: Light Rail?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2010, 08:58:49 AM »

Huge capacity- no grade separation. It just runs down the middle of the street.
IIRC, there is a tram every 2 minutes along this road. At the moment, 10 000 pphd down this corridor IRRC.

These are the world's longest single-unit trams so far.
However they are the longest in the sense that they are a single continuous vehicle- as they are not linked.

With the right design (longer platforms) and grade separation, you could possibly go longer still by linking units
together.

PS: They really need to define a single "entry" end and "exit" end there.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 09:03:45 AM by tramtrain »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 


“You can't understand a city without using its public transportation system.” -- Erol Ozan