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Index: Brisbane Feeder Bus Services

Started by #Metro, September 02, 2010, 22:09:00 PM

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#Metro

Brisbane does have a series of feeder buses to rail.
I've made a list of them from the TL website.
Feeder buses have real potential, but looking through the timetables, there are some very sorry things to see:

* Appalling frequency, just appalling, enough to make you shake your head.
* Appalling service hours often nothing on weekends/weekdays
* Hard to remember arrival/departure times
* Poor routes- very windy, often routes will not run bundled together but will run each in a different street so that splits the already poor frequency even further
*  Destinations (some run near major activity centres, but don't go to them)
* poor branding and legibility- needs coherent branding like the BUZ, many of these routes I had no idea existed
* Timing Longer waits than necessary at rail stations, making for poor bus-rail interchange

How did it get this bad?

Thinking about this, it seems that someone deliberately tried to roll out a feeder and transfer network to rail previously, because there
are many interchanges around on the network and feeder services, despite the abysmal service. If they did try, they had little chance of success with such poor service and infrequent trains.

This said however, there is much that can be done to overhaul this and get bang for buck out of these existing services.

Brisbane Existing Feeder Bus Routes
101 Inala TC --> Corinda Station
102 Inala TC --> Corinda Station
103 Inala TC --> Mt Ommaney
104 Corinda --> PA Hospital (simplify and extend to UQ Lakes station via busway?)
106 Mt-Ommaney-Corinda-Indooroopilly
122 Inala TC --> Garden City
161 Wishart/Garden City
307 Toombul-Northgate East-ACU
308 Chermside-Airport1-Aviation Precinct via Toombul
311 Brighton
312 Brighton
313 Shorncliffe
314 Deagon
326 Bracken Ridge-Sandgate-Toombul
327 Strathpine/Bracken Ridge to Toombul
328 College Green to Boondal
336/337 Clockwise/Anticlockwise Chermside loop
354 Brookside to Chermside
358 Brookside to Toombul shopping centre
362 Brookside to The Gap (Broken Link on TL Website)
367 Ferny Grove to Upper Kedron
393 Tenneriffe Ferry
338 Strathpine to Chermside
396 Arana Hills to Ferny Grove Station
397 Ferny Grove-Michelton
398 Ferny Grove-Michelton
399 Samford Valley -> Ferny Grove
451 Darra to Sinammon Park
452 Darra Station (Does not go to Mt Ommaney Shopping Centre?)
462 Darra-Forest Lake
467 Sinammon Pk to Oxley Station
468 Indooroopilly to Oxley
599/598 Great Circle Line

TC- town centre
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Golliwog

You forgot the 397 and 398 going between Ferny Grove station and Brookside (both also service Mitchelton station, one services Grovely station and they have varied routes through Ferny Hills and Arana Hills).
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#Metro

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Jonno

Do they also provide cross-town services or is that another group altogether? Can the feeder service be extended/merged to provide feeder and cross-town services?

#Metro

Yes, Yes and Yes.

Many of these services introduce a fine weave throughout the urban fabric. So, yes they do serve cross town travel purposes, but not exactly very well at the moment as the timetable maps don't show you where other services intersect, so people have no idea that they can perform a bus-bus transfer in the suburbs.

It is extremely difficult to travel into the next suburb without having to head into the CBD or on a journey to the CBD first.
If you think of a spider web, the arms of the spider web would be the busways, BUZ routes and the rail lines. The feeder buses should be the lines that go horizontally between the arms of the spider web.

Route 599/598 also needs a serious overhaul as it serves both purposes.
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#Metro

Unfortunately if you tried to draw a frequent network map of the feeder services, it wouldn't work.
You would get a blank sheet, because none of them are frequent.

Have a look at Toronto's feeder bus and cross town network. It's a grid overlaid on suburbia.
I'm guessing that some of these lines are BRT as well.

Very, very few buses ever make it into the CBD. They link up with rail stations and allow transport from anywhere to anywhere through a single transfer. Some of these routes are carrying heavy patronage so they might be upgraded to LRT.

Once again, something Brisbane residents can only dream about!

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/08/toronto-a-new-frequent-network-plan.html

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somebody

I would charactarise a lot of those routes as cross town routes rather than feeder routes.

Many of the 5xx, 6xx and 7xx routes are feeders.  I think there's a sizeable portion of 2xx ones too.

#Metro

Hmm, but I don't have any 5xx, 6xx or 7xx ones here. (Simply because there were too many timetables to look through).
I have characterized them as feeders as they serve rail stations or busway stations, but many of them perform both functions. And there is no reason why they cannot serve both functions with some good planning.

A lot of potential here, cheap, fast to implement, effective but sitting underutilized and idle, much like the rail network.
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STB

It should be noted that there are rail feeders and bus feeders, eg: route 253 that connects with line haul route 250 at Capalaba for City travellers.

In the 2xx series; the main rail feeders are - 223, 224, 241, 254, 255, 256, 258, 272, 274 (Routes 240, 253 etc are not rail feeder routes, their purpose is a crosstown or local service with connections at Capalaba.)

In the 5xx series; the main rail feeders are - 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 510, 511, 515, 516, 517, 520, 521, 522, 523, 530, 552, 553, 554, 556, 565, 567 - all others are technically cross town routes eg: Route 560, they take you to a rail station but there isn't neccessarilly a connection due to the fact that connections can be made with high frequency routes at either end of route 560 (Logan Hyperdome - 555, Browns Plains - 140, 150).

In the 6xx series - Basically every route except routes 641, 642, 644, 660 and 680.

In the 7xx series, Basically anything but a highway route - 70x series, and those routes that don't go near a railway station but service an entirely different purpose of providing a local route to the nearest shopping centre/transport interchange eg: Route 764.

Personally, I think that anything within 10km from the city should be serviced by a radial network as is the current BT network.  There is a time penalty (a connection according to TransLink guidelines is a minimum of 5 minutes) to create an interchange from bus to rail or bus to bus and you could travel into the city on one bus within 10km in the time it takes to travel to a rail station or bus station and transfer onto a line haul network.

somebody

I would characterise the 680 as primarily a feeder.  Ignoring the weird peak time extension, it's basically both a bus and a rail feeder.

#Metro

#11
QuotePersonally, I think that anything within 10km from the city should be serviced by a radial network as is the current BT network.  There is a time penalty (a connection according to TransLink guidelines is a minimum of 5 minutes) to create an interchange from bus to rail or bus to bus and you could travel into the city on one bus within 10km in the time it takes to travel to a rail station or bus station and transfer onto a line haul network.

I disagree. 10km is too large. Line haul public transport in a city like Brisbane should be conducted by rail.
So local buses would run on local streets in order to feed the rail network.
Some line haul work can be done by BUZ where there is no rail network to connect to- and there is nothing wrong with that.
In time these routes could be upgraded to LRT or superbus.

While it is true that there is a time penalty:
effectively equal to the time it takes for a person to walk out of the bus and up the stairs of a rail station or cross the road and wait for lights to change, this can be minimised by co-ordination. Somewhere like Toowong, for instance, you can get stuck on Coro drive for 15 minutes to the most part of an hour in traffic.

The second thing, is that it is highly inefficient to run hundreds of buses direct to the CBD, because you rack up huge numbers of bus-km. By using cross-town feeder services to rail, those bus-km can be recycled and fed back into the bus service to boost the service frequency. What this does is cut the waiting time at the bus stop. In many cases, this is much larger than the transfer penalty and more than makes up for the 5 minute time penalty.

The second thing is that other trips which are suppressed- the cross town trips- can now be serviced. There is a diagram in the connecting SEQ 2031 report which details exactly this. It is at the top of page 46 in part one of the Draft Connecting SEQ 2031 Part 1 of 2 document.

This is how world's best practice PT is done in Toronto and in Perth. It is also how it should be done in Brisbane.

http://www.humantransit.org/2009/04/why-transferring-is-good-for-you-and-good-for-your-city.html
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somebody

It is done that way in Brisbane.  Just not the BCC area (I won't respond to anyone saying that Petrie or Redbank isn't part of Brisbane.

#Metro

QuoteIt is done that way in Brisbane.  Just not the BCC area (I won't respond to anyone saying that Petrie or Redbank isn't part of Brisbane.

It's really unusual.
There are vestiges of what appears to be some attempt in the past to get a feeder bus to rail system working in the BCC area.
There is a large interchange at Enoggera Station- what's the story behind that?
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longboi

Quote from: tramtrain on September 03, 2010, 15:15:18 PM
QuoteIt is done that way in Brisbane.  Just not the BCC area (I won't respond to anyone saying that Petrie or Redbank isn't part of Brisbane.

It's really unusual.
There are vestiges of what appears to be some attempt in the past to get a feeder bus to rail system working in the BCC area.
There is a large interchange at Enoggera Station- what's the story behind that?

From what I've read, It was built at the same time the Gov't made their first attempt at intergrated PT - all the way back in '82 or thereabouts  :o

somebody

I think there was something on ATDB a while ago.  Was something like the Wardell St overpass made the interchange redundant, but that doesn't make sense to me.

#Metro

Very interesting. Thanks for this.
:-t

I wonder if there was a transport plan in the 80's that might shed light on this situation.
There must have been something, because CityXpress and bendy buses were introduced then.
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STB

I'll just mention that there were some successful rail feeders and some not so successful rail feeders in the outer regions.

Bus-rail feeders are quite successful in the Caboolture area with 30min frequencies during peak.  By contrast, in the eastern area, routes 254, 255, 258 in particular, feed into rail  and connect with trains but are hardly used, <1 pax per trip during peak hour, even when route 255 ran at 15 min frequencies a while back, it had only 1-2 pax per trip and hence the frequency was cut down.  

My reasons for not catching route 255 stem from it taking a 10min walk down to the stop, then waiting 5mins for a bus, then travelling the 5mins to the railway station, that's 20mins lost, when by car it's only a 5min journey.

From what I've seen, the pax that do catch these buses during peak aren't going to the railway station but travelling to other areas and/or are filled with school kids travelling to school (not by rail, but transferring to another bus at the railway station).

#Metro

#18
STB, are you able to shed light on these vestiges of a feeder & transfer network around Brisbane?
And what's your opinion on a bus to the Port or ATC?

QuoteBy contrast, in the eastern area, routes 254, 255, 258 in particular, feed into rail  and connect with trains but are hardly used, <1 pax per trip during peak hour, even when route 255 ran at 15 min frequencies a while back, it had only 1-2 pax per trip and hence the frequency was cut down. 

Could a possible reason for this be that it would be quicker to take a direct bus trip than use the Cleveland line (due the the Cleveland line U-bend?). I agree, I can't see the travel being competitive, however if ExpressLink to Manly goes ahead then this might (or might not?) change...
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O_128

Quote from: tramtrain on September 05, 2010, 23:10:54 PM
STB, are you able to shed light on these vestiges of a feeder & transfer network around Brisbane?
And what's your opinion on a bus to the Port or ATC?

QuoteBy contrast, in the eastern area, routes 254, 255, 258 in particular, feed into rail  and connect with trains but are hardly used, <1 pax per trip during peak hour, even when route 255 ran at 15 min frequencies a while back, it had only 1-2 pax per trip and hence the frequency was cut down. 

Could a possible reason for this be that it would be quicker to take a direct bus trip than use the Cleveland line (due the the Cleveland line U-bend?). I agree, I can't see the travel being competitive, however if ExpressLink to Manly goes ahead then this might (or might not?) change...

If done properly trains are able to run express to manly in 25 min ( the reason why they arent competitive now is they have to keep stopping themselves catching the next train in front) which means a 40 min trip to cleveland is possible and competitive
"Where else but Queensland?"

#Metro

Quote
If done properly trains are able to run express to manly in 25 min ( the reason why they arent competitive now is they have to keep stopping themselves catching the next train in front) which means a 40 min trip to cleveland is possible and competitive

Really? That's unbelievable! You could extend the Cleveland line with that kind of speed.
Any new tracks required for that though?
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Jonno

#21
STB insights outline the reality that feeder services are better when they are a cross-town service that can provide a feeder service if needed.  The majority of fast transit (rail and busway) passengers should be walk up if our city is developed properly.  This does highlight that we need to develop a more extensive network of transit lines plus cross-town services.   I agree that we have far too many buses And bus routes heading into the city and where they all combine on major routes they need to be converted into a transit like service. We also need to modify routes where they wonder all over the suburb just so it can be claimed everone lives within 400 meters of a public transport route!

#Metro

#22
Not sure that the majority of passengers should be walk up.
400 meters to the station is most convenient- but that is a very small area, after 800 meters almost nobody will still walk...

Stations and rail infrastructure are expensive.
It is not possible to saturate the landscape with rail stations, nor rebuild the entire city to live within the catchment zone.
TODs will help, but the problem is access.

My copy of Vukan Vuhic, has a nice graph on page 187 of Urban Transit dealing with access to stations/stops.
The further away from the station, the likelihood of using that particular mode to access the station decreases rapidly.

Bicycles might increase that catchment area to 1.2-1.5km
Park and rides might increase that further (but limited parking)

Interestingly, service frequency and quality also appears to be a factor.

A figure for feeder buses has not been given, but could be found by looking up what distance Perth's feeders are.
On the Gold Coast, Nerang Station is about 9 km from Pacific Fair, where lots of people catch the feeder bus to the rail station, and its timed to meet the train. It's very popular. IMHO Perth's feeders are smaller, say about within 5km or so of the station from Google Maps...

Perth: Wellard Station to Kwinana Town Centre (google transit)

http://www.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Wellard+station&daddr=Kwinana+Town+Centre,+Western+Australia,+Australia&hl=en&geocode=FeCwE_4dwzrnBinZSYx9MoUyKjHfmVAv8SJJlg%3B&mra=ls&dirflg=r&ttype=dep&date=09%2F06%2F10&time=8:46am&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=&sll=-32.252479,115.819974&sspn=0.014082,0.030899&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=14&start=0


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#Metro

QuoteThis does highlight that we need to develop a more extensive network of transit lines plus cross-town services.   I agree that we have far too many buses And bus routes heading into the city and where they all combine on major routes they need to be converted into a transit like service. We also need to modify routes where they wonder all over the suburb just so it can be claimed everone lives within 400 meters of a public transport route!

100% agree.

Perth has tried to do something about the last problem- windy but low quality routes useful for only bragging rights.
I read somewhere they have a KPI that is "number of people that live within X meters of a stop with an acceptable level of service".
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STB

Quote from: tramtrain on September 05, 2010, 23:10:54 PM
STB, are you able to shed light on these vestiges of a feeder & transfer network around Brisbane?
And what's your opinion on a bus to the Port or ATC?

QuoteBy contrast, in the eastern area, routes 254, 255, 258 in particular, feed into rail  and connect with trains but are hardly used, <1 pax per trip during peak hour, even when route 255 ran at 15 min frequencies a while back, it had only 1-2 pax per trip and hence the frequency was cut down. 

Could a possible reason for this be that it would be quicker to take a direct bus trip than use the Cleveland line (due the the Cleveland line U-bend?). I agree, I can't see the travel being competitive, however if ExpressLink to Manly goes ahead then this might (or might not?) change...

Firstly with the ATC, and I'm presuming Australia Trade Coast, there is already extensive prelim planning underway, and has been underway for quite some time now for additional PT upgrades as the population in the ATC area grows, it'll take a few more years though before you see anything up there, I'm guessing around 2015 onwards.

Secondly, with the Port of Brisbane, an idea was floated a few years back as Hemmant residents were jumping up and down wanting a bus service through their area, even though it fell well below the minimum population requirements and was already serviced by Hemmant railway station.  However, the idea was to run a bus from Hemmant to Port of Brisbane then back over to Wynnum.  Servicing the Port of Brisbane could be difficult with public transport though with varied start/finish times for the port of Brisbane, and also since to work up there, I'd safely assume, you must have a drivers licence to do what they do up there.  I'd suggest there would be some security issues as well that would need to be dealt with before a mass transit service was given.

Regarding the Cleveland line, it really depends on where you are going and where you live in the Northern Redlands, I have heard of people driving from Sheldon to catch a train from Birkdale, even though it'd be far quicker to simply catch either routes 279/281 along Mt Cotton Rd.  The traffic conditions between Capalaba and Stones Corner can be quite heavy during peak hours so it's probably quicker to go by train than by bus in the Redlands, although it's highly dependent on what time of the peak you go, which even changes day by day.  People in the Redlands are quite fickle with PT and have always have had a strong say on when they'd like their bus and train to leave their nearest stop, there's even been requests in the past, even before TL where they wanted a one stop express journey which is a considered selfish attitude to have, but that's the nature of the population out here.

In terms of loadings, both the train and bus get significant loadings, particularly the expresses (7:33am express out of Birkdale normally has standees by Thorneside).  While bus wise, routes 250, 267, 270, 275, 279, 281 tend to have the highest loadings during peak hour, with standees quite common.

#Metro

QuoteSecondly, with the Port of Brisbane, an idea was floated a few years back as Hemmant residents were jumping up and down wanting a bus service through their area, even though it fell well below the minimum population requirements and was already serviced by Hemmant railway station.  However, the idea was to run a bus from Hemmant to Port of Brisbane then back over to Wynnum.  Servicing the Port of Brisbane could be difficult with public transport though with varied start/finish times for the port of Brisbane, and also since to work up there, I'd safely assume, you must have a drivers licence to do what they do up there.  I'd suggest there would be some security issues as well that would need to be dealt with before a mass transit service was given.

Interesting. What are these minimum population requirements and how are they calculated?
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Jonno

Quote from: tramtrain on September 06, 2010, 18:50:20 PM
QuoteSecondly, with the Port of Brisbane, an idea was floated a few years back as Hemmant residents were jumping up and down wanting a bus service through their area, even though it fell well below the minimum population requirements and was already serviced by Hemmant railway station.  However, the idea was to run a bus from Hemmant to Port of Brisbane then back over to Wynnum.  Servicing the Port of Brisbane could be difficult with public transport though with varied start/finish times for the port of Brisbane, and also since to work up there, I'd safely assume, you must have a drivers licence to do what they do up there.  I'd suggest there would be some security issues as well that would need to be dealt with before a mass transit service was given.

Interesting. What are these minimum population requirements and how are they calculated?

and do they assume that only 10-15% of the whole population would ever consider catching public transport!!!!

#Metro

#27
QuoteSecondly, with the Port of Brisbane, an idea was floated a few years back as Hemmant residents were jumping up and down wanting a bus service through their area, even though it fell well below the minimum population requirements and was already serviced by Hemmant railway station.  However, the idea was to run a bus from Hemmant to Port of Brisbane then back over to Wynnum.

Why were Hemmant residents jumping up and down for a bus service? This is a symptom of something else? So what is that something? Is it poor train frequency? Is it being unable to access the station by bicycle or walking? Is it slow train speeds or travel times? Does Hemmant station have bicycle racks? Is the station perceived as unsafe?

It would be worthwhile to find out why they made demands and understand them.

Hemmant Station

Hemmant station does not have a park and ride. The residential bit around the station is small. However, it is possible that there could be demand from the industrial complexes in the area, which are large. The lesson from BUZ is that it is often poor service or non-service provision that is holding demand back.

If places in far flung hinterland areas on the sunshine coast can get PT, then there is a solution for the port. Flexibuses (such as on the Sunshine Coast) could be used. This is basically a maxi taxi pre-booked or with a flexible route and or schedule. The vehicle is smaller and can run as a normal taxi when not used. It can deviate where necessary. It might be a solution to look at, but it would require gathering support and talking with the locals/local businesses/the port so they know that the service is there and they can use it. It must also be integrated on the TL website, searchable in the normal journey planner without changing it to "all services", so that might mean a fixed schedule is necessary.

Cycling might be possible, but as heavy trucks use the route and it would at least be a 35 minute ride, it might not be ideal.
Carpooling or car-sharing might be another option. That is something that POB could facilitate with its workers.

Currently it seems that if you want a job at the port, you must have a car.
That's really unequitable. There are good jobs there and people who need them can't access them!  :(
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#Metro

Its easier to get from Nambour to Maleny on PT than it is to get from Wynnum North to the port!
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STB

Quote from: tramtrain on September 06, 2010, 18:50:20 PM
QuoteSecondly, with the Port of Brisbane, an idea was floated a few years back as Hemmant residents were jumping up and down wanting a bus service through their area, even though it fell well below the minimum population requirements and was already serviced by Hemmant railway station.  However, the idea was to run a bus from Hemmant to Port of Brisbane then back over to Wynnum.  Servicing the Port of Brisbane could be difficult with public transport though with varied start/finish times for the port of Brisbane, and also since to work up there, I'd safely assume, you must have a drivers licence to do what they do up there.  I'd suggest there would be some security issues as well that would need to be dealt with before a mass transit service was given.

Interesting. What are these minimum population requirements and how are they calculated?

If I remember correctly, the minimum required population before public transport can be given under the current laws is 7500.  The process in planning services in the past was that it was estimated that 10% of the total population in the outer areas would use public transport, whilst planning services in the city the estimation would be 25%-30% of the total population that is within the catchment of the route.  You would then divide that total by the number of trips to gain an estimate on number of estimated passengers per trip, and the minimum required under TL guidelines is at least 7 passengers per trip for local routes and 14 passengers per trip for city/peak hour routes.

#Metro

Thanks for this, this is very good.
QuoteIf I remember correctly, the minimum required population before public transport can be given under the current laws is 7500.

Is that 7500 per km2 ?

QuoteThe process in planning services in the past was that it was estimated that 10% of the total population in the outer areas would use public transport, whilst planning services in the city the estimation would be 25%-30% of the total population that is within the catchment of the route.

So Jonno IS right about the 10%, at least for fringe areas.
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Jonno

Until our transport planners change to supply lead public transport planning we will always be under serving public transport and over supplying road space...and we wonder why behaviours are hard to change.

STB

I do think that that 10% mindset is changing.  Look at the SEQ 2031 plan for example, well above the usual estimation of 10% of the population who'll use public transport.

Bear in mind that those figures is from 3-4 years ago.

#Metro

My main point was the strangeness of the planning process. It seems almost circular in reasoning.

If PT is bad in an area, it will register as a low % of people using PT.
So then people look at that and go "oh there isn't much demand there"
So it stays with bad PT, when there could be huge latent demand.

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