Fare evasion - articles discussion

[ozbob]

Minister for Transport
The Honourable Rachel Nolan
19/08/2010

Transit officers and police target Ipswich line

Operation Zorro, a one night operation involving eight police from the Ipswich Tactical Crime Squad and 10 TransLink Transit Officers, has been conducted on the Ipswich Rail Line.

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan said the joint operation on Saturday August 14 targeted criminal offences, good order offences and fare evasion.

"During the joint operation, stations between Goodna and Rosewood were saturated with high visibility police and transit officers on inbound and outbound trains," Ms Nolan said.

"Police and transit officers regularly conduct targeted operations such as this, in addition to routine patrols, to ensure the safety and security of customers."

Tactical Crime Squad officer in charge Senior Sergeant Glenn Fleming said police arrested one person for Contravene Direction and issued 14 rail infringement notices and one infringement notice for drinking in public.

"The general public were happy with the presence of police and transit officers throughout the operation," Senior Sergeant Fleming said.

"It was disappointing to see a large number of people detected travelling on trains without paying relevant fares, some of whom had received previous warnings.

"We want the community to know that uniform and plain clothes police regularly patrol the Queensland Rail network and will continue to conduct proactive operations in conjunction with the Railway Squad and transit officers."

TransLink Transit Officers issued 20 rail infringement notices and 30 warning notices.

==============================================================

[ozbob]

From the Queensland Times click here!

Rail fare dodger caught 37 times

Rail fare dodger caught 37 times

Felicity Caldwell | 26th August 2010

AN IPSWICH man has been named Queensland's most notorious fare evader after being caught riding trains without a ticket 37 times.

Nicholas John Zardani has $12,000 in unpaid fines and was most recently caught on trains at South Brisbane on July 16 and August 6 while he did not have a ticket.

Zardani, 21, had frequently been given on-the-spot fines in the past but was brought to Ipswich Magistrates Court on the most recent offences – which marked his 36th and 37th convictions for fare evasion.

Prosecutor Acting Senior Constable Jo Colston said Zardani had never paid his fines and had $12,000 outstanding at the State Penalties Enforcement Registry (SPER).

Snr Const Colston told Magistrate Virginia Sturgess she had "no idea" what she should do to punish Zardani as fines did not seem to deter him.

Zardani pleaded guilty to two charges of evading fare.

He was ordered to perform 80 hours of community service.

A TransLink spokesman said Zardani's case was the "worse case of fare evasion that has been reported to TransLink".

Zardani said he had been homeless until he found a place to live two weeks ago and now received Centrelink payments.

But Zardani said he no longer had to catch trains as he was living at North Ipswich. Ms Sturgess told Zardani he could be jailed for the charge of evading fare.

[#Metro]

I don't know the case and can only make comment on what the media has written.
I say let him off the hook. If they have no money, what is the point of sending them to jail?
How else were they supposed to get around, find a job, meet appointments- in their non existent private car?

Also what arrangements does TransLink have for people with an income of zero like homeless people etcetera?
Are there special fare arrangements or fare-waives or a free transport pass? This needs to be publicized properly.

[ozbob]

We have previously called for support for folks on Centre Link for public transport use.  Minimum concession travel (this is done in other states), and some free passes for job interviews.  I put this to QT yesterday when I spoke to them.  There may be follow up yet.

Additionally more active TOs patrolling on the outer network to send a message that the chances of being detected are getting higher and continuing education.

[Derwan]

I say let him off the hook. If they have no money, what is the point of sending them to jail?
How else were they supposed to get around, find a job, meet appointments- in their non existent private car?

While I understand what you're saying, I think he should've been prosecuted after the 3rd evasion, not the 37th!

Was he going to job interviews - or just catching up with mates?  To be caught 37 times, how many MORE times was he catching trains without a ticket?  Could he really have had that many interviews?

I agree that something needs to be set up to get unemployed people to interviews.  They should definitely be entitled to concession travel at a minimum.

Unfortunately you're dealing with 2 levels of Government.  The State isn't going to be happy offering something for "free" unless it receives these funds from the federal government.

[#Metro]

You can't ask someone to pay or fine them if the money they have = 0
Such rules are formulated without cases like this in mind. The spirit of this rule is so that people who can afford to pay actually pay. If he travels in the off peak when there is an abundance of empty seats, I cannot see who is being harmed here.

These rules are discriminatory against our most vulnerable people. How are people supposed to make a better life for themselves if they don't have access to the most basic of things like moving around.

[Derwan]

You can't ask someone to pay or fine them if the money they have = 0
Such rules are formulated without cases like this in mind. The spirit of this rule is so that people who can afford to pay actually pay. If he travels in the off peak when there is an abundance of empty seats, I cannot see who is being harmed here.

These rules are discriminatory against our most vulnerable people. How are people supposed to make a better life for themselves if they don't have access to the most basic of things like moving around.

I actually agree with you - but there has to be a system in place and formal acknowledgement of people in that situation - otherwise anyone could simply claim "I can't afford it" and ride for free.

We can't just let this person off when he clearly knew the rules (36 times over) but continually chose to ignore them.

[O_128]

Ive noticed sundays are now getting a lot of TOs, my 444 to the city, my cleveland train to and from and my citycat back to toowong all had TOs

[#Metro]

What does TransLink have in place so that people with an income = 0 can travel on the network.

[Golliwog]

Police patrolling Ferny Grove line this afternoon. Checking tickets between Gaythorne and Oxford Park, at least one guy was caught without a ticket on my train. Police got off at Oxford Park with him as I believe the ticketless man was trying to get to Mitchelton, so he was going to catch the next train back with the officers. However they had no go card reading devices, didn't even bother checking concession entitlements. I was however in the quiet car, I did notice it got a lot quieter once the police entered the carriage . When I got to Ferny Grove there were another two officers waiting, weren't checking tickets so I assume were waiting to catch the train back in to the city, or to pick up the two officers who had gotten off at Oxford Park (there was supposed to be another FG train 5 minutes after mine).

[ozbob]

From the Queensland Times click here!

More transit officers needed

More transit officers needed

Felicity Caldwell | 27th August 2010

MORE transit officers need to be stationed in the Ipswich region to crack down on repeat train fare evaders, a rail lobbyist has argued.

Rail Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said the majority of transit officers were kept at "closed gate" stations such as Brisbane's CBD where it was impossible to exit without presenting a ticket or Go Card.

But Ipswich train stations, which are open and often rely upon the honesty of commuters to purchase tickets, have far fewer transit officers available.

Mr Dow's comments come after Queensland's most notorious fare evader appeared in Ipswich Magistrates Court for riding trains without a ticket.

The Queensland Times reported yesterday that Nicholas John Zardani, 21, had $12,000 in unpaid fines and was recently caught for his 36th and 37th convictions for fare evasion.

Zardani pleaded guilty and was given 80 hours of community service.

Mr Dow called for more transit officers at Ipswich region stations as there was a higher rate of fare evasion on the outer reaches of the rail network and the need for "more aggressive enforcement".

He said fare evasion took money away from revenue which could be invested in rail services, with about 25 per cent of funding coming from commuter tickets.

Mr Dow said people on Centrelink payments should be allowed to buy concession tickets to help them stop evading fares.

"It gets to the point they can't afford the fare and then they'll take their chances and that leads them to an escalating fare evasion cycle," he said.

"People should be encouraged to use public transport because it does overall save money – it reduces the environmental impact and road trauma which leads to the health sector."

Mr Dow said slapping fare evaders with increasing fines did not necessarily solve the problem.

"It's kind of counterproductive in the longer term," he said.

"As this situation demonstrates – how is this individual ever going to pay those fines?"

[somebody]

It's possible to exit Roma St without a ticket.  Just run through the open gate.  At Central, you can jump the gate.  If no one with an arrest power is present, there is nothing staff can do!  So there is a need for TTOs to be at Central at Roma St, at least sometimes.

[ozbob]

We know that.  TOs don't have power of arrest either.  The new 10 Senior TOs will.   Police are available at Roma St and Central.

But the reality is fare evasion is more much rampant out on the 'open stations', people knowing that the inner city stations are closed are less likely to approach or leave with out tickets.  


Recently I was in the company of some QR personnel and we observed the touch off rate at an outer suburban station during the early afternoon.  The touch off/on rate at Central is around 90%.  At the station observed there was about 1 in 10 touching off/on.  I don't think there is a big fare evasion problem with the daily commuter in the peaks and commute to and from the CBD.

[somebody]

But according to section 129A of this act: http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/T/TranstOpPasTA94.pdf
They have the power to detain said person until the arrival of a Police Officer.  That's pretty much a de facto arrest.  Perhaps there is some order that this power is not to be used.

[ozbob]

As I understand it that was the amendment.  The present TOs are level 3 authorised officers and rejected those powers, the new TransLink TO (Senior TO (Network Officers) are to have those new powers.

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/RailServices/City/SafetySecurity/Pages/SecurityStaff.aspx

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/translink-safety-band-aid-slammed/story-e6freoof-1225899721786

TEN new transit officers with special "detain and search'' powers are being trained as critics attack Queensland Rail for failing to protect passengers.

Translink has told The Courier-Mail 10 senior network officers are in training and will start patrolling train, bus and ferry networks across the southeast "in coming months''.

The controversial beefed-up powers were passed into law on July 1 last year through amendments to the Transport Operations (Passenger) Act 1994.

http://www.news.com.au/police-union-warns-against-giving-transit-officers-too-much-power/story-e6freoof-1225900602098?from=public_rss

Brisbane has also 110 transit officers without search and detain powers and 90 private security guards that critics have claimed are virtually powerless to intervene while offences are committed.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/police-union-warns-against-giving-transit-officers-too-much-power/story-e6freoof-1225900602098?from=public_rss#ixzz0xn1jRBEJ

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/train-cops-no-substitute-for-real-police-union-20100803-1146u.html

The powers allowing transit officers to search and detain passengers on buses, trains and ferries, were passed into law on July 1 last year through amendments to the Transport Operations (Passenger Transport) Act 1994.

It is understood Translink has since been developing a training program for the new officers.

[somebody]

I don't know why all the TOs aren't given these powers - seems like the legislation allows for such a thing.  Also, abolish the private security.  What's the point if they don't have any power?  NSW did such a thing years ago, although they bypassed the powerless TO step. EDIT: Also, doesn't seem any reason for the Police Union to be unhappy with these changes other than a turf war.

[ozbob]

Bit more background --> here

It is a bit confusing I agree.  Present TOs don't have the new powers.  The new TransLink Network Officers will (10 in training). 

[#Metro]

  What?

This makes no sense to me. So the current transit officers are QR personnel?
And then there is the rail squad? And network officers on top of that? And security guards?

Why do we need 4 different kinds of officers to do 1 kind of job- check tickets and deal with antisocial
behaviour on the network?

A properly integrated network have one set of officers all employed by 1 agency.
And that agency should be exclusively TransLink.

Yet more evidence that the transport network is only integrated in fares and in name.

[mufreight]

TT not even that
A far more effective would be teaming one transit officer with two railway squad police and dispensing with the existing private security and substituting railway squad police, the mere presence of the police officers deter those who would  break the rules and they are empowered to deal with them, as railway squad they should have knowledge of the railway by-laws.

[somebody]

Present TOs don't have the new powers. 

Shouldn't they be working to have one form of TO/security.

[ozbob]

Yes, that would seem logical.  But there seems to be reluctance to do that from the reading the material above.

TT is right.  It is mixture.  You  start with QR staff,  QR CSOs, then we have Security guards (Contractors), TOs and Senior TOs (these are QR staff), and new Senior Network Officers (TransLink staff), and the Railway Squad QPS.

We are in the definitely in the smart state, hey?

Personally I always feel better when QPS Rail Squad are out and about.  The present TOs do a good job, but they are not police.  Time will tell how the TL NOs fit in to the active picture ...

[#Metro]

Too many people, too many positions, too many agencies is the perfect recipe for a mess where everyone blames everyone else and nobody is sure of who does what.

If someone gets rowdy on a train, which phone number do you dial? The police? The railway squad? A QR TO?
A NO? The QR guard at the back of the train? The contracted Security Officer? There isn't the time to look up everyone's job description at the scene.

Or what will probably happen: One of each is dispatched, a complete waste of time, place swarming with officials.

This service should be organised around what the system needs- a roving security officer with security, detention and fining powers who can jump on any bus, ferry or train. Not turf and administrative boundaries of the organizations involved. The police should be involved where serious problems (assault, weapons, arson, graffiti etc) occur.

[#Metro]

A situation like this must be avoided in Brisbane:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/415263_tunnel11.html?source=mypi

King County Metro Transit will change its security policy in the Downtown Transit Tunnel after a surveillance video showed a 15-year-old girl beaten in front of three security guards who didn't intervene to help her, an agency official said Wednesday.

KING/5 first publicized the video in which the security officers can be seen calling for help on their radios but not trying to help the girl, even as she's pushed off the platform and into the tunnel right-of-way at one point, and then thrown to the ground and kicked.

The guards appeared to be following the letter of their contract, but their actions were unacceptable, Desmond said.

[somebody]

That is exactly the Brisbane policy, at least AIUI.

[justanotheruser]

It's possible to exit Roma St without a ticket.  Just run through the open gate.  At Central, you can jump the gate.  If no one with an arrest power is present, there is nothing staff can do!  So there is a need for TTOs to be at Central at Roma St, at least sometimes.

At central the other day there were no open gates. The staff at each exit had a swipe card so when a person with a paper ticket comes along the staff member swipes the card and the gate opens and closes. This prevents run throughs. I do not know if this is in place elsewhere or if it is just a trial or what.

[justanotheruser]

We have previously called for support for folks on Centre Link for public transport use.  Minimum concession travel (this is done in other states), and some free passes for job interviews.  I put this to QT yesterday when I spoke to them.  There may be follow up yet.

Additionally more active TOs patrolling on the outer network to send a message that the chances of being detected are getting higher and continuing education.

People on unemployment benefits can generally get free train travel arranged through the job agency they are with. These agencies also provide money to buy new clothing for the job as well as for the interview. this is funded by federal govt. So unless this has changed in the last six months then job seekers generally do get free travel. Once again it does not cover all job seekers but I suppose there does need to be a way to make sure it is not rorted.

As I understand it that was the amendment.  The present TOs are level 3 authorised officers and rejected those powers, the new TransLink TO (Senior TO (Network Officers) are to have those new powers.

and as highlighted in the article you linked in one of the main issues is exactly the same as what happened in NSW. nobody wants to be prepared to wear the flak. In NSW station attendants (or whatever they call them these days) refused to take the power to issue fines because that meant they might have to go to court if the person contested it. So basically that is what it comes down to. People want the power but no responsibility for their actions. Even though police are allowed to make mistakes they can still be reported for abuse of power. Time to toughen up.

I reject any call for more TO's. What is actually needed is for more staff at more stations and actually have the ability to check tickets as people leave. Under the current terms of contract QR are only required to have staff at stations from 6am to 9:30am. The rest of the day it is tough luck. Many stations in sydney are designed to make one entry/exit point. There are often many ways to the platforms from the gates but this allows them to easily check tickets or do a ticket inspection blitz.

[justanotheruser]

Present TOs don't have the new powers. 

Shouldn't they be working to have one form of TO/security.

if i was in charge this is how I would get around no forced redundancies. As the people retire or move on to other positions they are not replaced but instead translink take on staff.  As the article OzBob linked in said the main reason QR staff have shown a lack of interest is they want the power without the responsibility. they phrased it without personal liability. This annoys me because I have arrested people knowing full well that if I don't have them successfully charged then  I can be sued. I don't see why they can't live with that.

[somebody]

if i was in charge this is how I would get around no forced redundancies. As the people retire or move on to other positions they are not replaced but instead translink take on staff.  As the article OzBob linked in said the main reason QR staff have shown a lack of interest is they want the power without the responsibility. they phrased it without personal liability. This annoys me because I have arrested people knowing full well that if I don't have them successfully charged then  I can be sued. I don't see why they can't live with that.

I don't believe they could be personally sued in this case.

[ozbob]

Thanks for your comments justanotheruser.  The point we are making is that give centre link receipents concession travel whilst they are on it.  This happens elsewhere, and we are backing the calls from the QCOSS on this.  Also some guaranteed provision for free travel to and from an interview for example.  There seems to be an ad hoc system for some but not others.  This was discussed recently at a meeting I was at and there is a need.  There were various groups who have an interest in this.

We are not calling for more TOs, but more effective deployment of TOs.  The Government is responding politically with the NOs.  I don't think we will see the days of gates slamming as trains arrived at stations as it happened on VR in my youth. There will be an increasing roll out of fare gates and closed setups, particularly at stations at the end of journeys and key intermediaries.  We have always supported the presence of staff on stations.  As it is at the moment there are 34 stations only that are effectively staffed to late.  There are about 143 stations all up.

http://www.qcoss.org.au/upload/6576__QCOSS%20Policy%20Position_Nov%202009_Access%20to%20Transport.pdf

QCOSS Recommendations

QCOSS recommends that transport disadvantage be addressed throughout Queensland by:
1. Urgent increased investment in improving the frequency, reliability, comfort, affordability and
safety of public transport services. Incentives for general community use of public transport
will positively impact on the frequency of services that will assist disadvantaged households
and contribute to a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.

2. Ensuring that fare discounting on public transport for lower income groups keeps pace with
rising transport costs, and extending current public transport concessions to holders of
health care cards (to cover job-seekers).

3. Addressing the current gaps in transport accessibility including options for young people
with a disability and for those who require short term medical transport.

4. The introduction of strategies to reduce the non financial barriers to public transport for
specific populations. For example, training in cultural competency and issues related to
homelessness, mental health etc for public transport employees.

5. The development of a cohesive transport strategy, led by Queensland Transport that
includes recognition of Community Transport as valid infrastructure and integrates planning
and coordination of all transport infrastructures.

6. The development of community based strategies to provide demand-responsive transport
options in all transport disadvantaged regions. i.e. Buses and smaller vehicles offering
flexible routes and timetables.

7. Funding a network of community based transport development workers to facilitate local
solutions to transport planning in regional areas.

8. Coordination of public transport with housing developments, especially social housing.
Transport orientated urban development will provide the basis for greater use of public
transport. The integration of social housing for low income households within this
development will create opportunities to access education, employment and services.

These are excellent recommendations ..

[#Metro]

And their first recommendation is:

1. Urgent increased investment in improving the frequency, reliability, comfort, affordability and
safety of public transport services. Incentives for general community use of public transport
will positively impact on the frequency of services that will assist disadvantaged households
and contribute to a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.

[ozbob]

Yes, excellent set of recommendations --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4169.0

[mufreight]

Ok now lets get serious and practical.
Take Translink out of the system.
Do away with transit officers in their present form altogether,
Remove the private security guards who are only a presence and only a deterrent but do nothing in reality.
Increase the size of the QPS railway squad and give them full responsibility for the enforcement of all railway by-laws including revenue protection, the police would operate in teams including one team member with a card reader who could be termed a revenue protection officer possibly a retrained member of the new senior transit officers who is inducted into the QPS as a special constable and has all the powers of a members of the general police officers but only related to the transit system.
QR customer service officers are a feel good public relations exercise, some are simply a presence while some go out of their way and possibly far beyond their mandated duties to help those who need assistance and should be retained.
By removing the multiplicity of authorities involved in revenue protection and control of anti social behaviour a single body would remove public confusion and increase confidence in the system.
The officers would then become as a group more conversant with rail operations and the confirmation of identity of those found to be travelling without valid tickets in ticket checking would remove many from the system for whom there are outstanding warrants or who are on the wanted lists.
The higher costs would be more than repaid by the increased revenue and the community safety benefits.
A bit big brother maybe but far more effective and workable than the existing system.

[somebody]

Yes, that would seem logical.  But there seems to be reluctance to do that from the reading the material above.

The question is: why don't they want to see reason?

[justanotheruser]

if i was in charge this is how I would get around no forced redundancies. As the people retire or move on to other positions they are not replaced but instead translink take on staff.  As the article OzBob linked in said the main reason QR staff have shown a lack of interest is they want the power without the responsibility. they phrased it without personal liability. This annoys me because I have arrested people knowing full well that if I don't have them successfully charged then  I can be sued. I don't see why they can't live with that.

I don't believe they could be personally sued in this case.

probably not if they have the right to detain people till the police arrive. That is different from citizens arrest.

[mufreight]

if i was in charge this is how I would get around no forced redundancies. As the people retire or move on to other positions they are not replaced but instead translink take on staff.  As the article OzBob linked in said the main reason QR staff have shown a lack of interest is they want the power without the responsibility. they phrased it without personal liability. This annoys me because I have arrested people knowing full well that if I don't have them successfully charged then  I can be sued. I don't see why they can't live with that.

I don't believe they could be personally sued in this case.

probably not if they have the right to detain people till the police arrive. That is different from citizens arrest.

If they are police officers this resolves any possible problems in respect of authority and acts as a stronger deterrent to those inclined to indulge in antisocial or illegal behaviour.
The elimination of the existing multiplicity of authority in the system not only simplifies the administrative aspects but would improve public confidence in commuter safety.

[somebody]

If they are police officers this resolves any possible problems in respect of authority and acts as a stronger deterrent to those inclined to indulge in antisocial or illegal behaviour.
The elimination of the existing multiplicity of authority in the system not only simplifies the administrative aspects but would improve public confidence in commuter safety.

Yes, that's one option.  I believe a lot of jurisdictions do have a non police transit officer force.  Not sure what the reason is, perhaps costs?  Reluctance of police to act as security guards & ticket inspectors?

[justanotheruser]

Ok now lets get serious and practical.
Take Translink out of the system.
Do away with transit officers in their present form altogether,
Remove the private security guards who are only a presence and only a deterrent but do nothing in reality.
Increase the size of the QPS railway squad and give them full responsibility for the enforcement of all railway by-laws including revenue protection, the police would operate in teams including one team member with a card reader who could be termed a revenue protection officer possibly a retrained member of the new senior transit officers who is inducted into the QPS as a special constable and has all the powers of a members of the general police officers but only related to the transit system.
QR customer service officers are a feel good public relations exercise, some are simply a presence while some go out of their way and possibly far beyond their mandated duties to help those who need assistance and should be retained.
By removing the multiplicity of authorities involved in revenue protection and control of anti social behaviour a single body would remove public confusion and increase confidence in the system.
The officers would then become as a group more conversant with rail operations and the confirmation of identity of those found to be travelling without valid tickets in ticket checking would remove many from the system for whom there are outstanding warrants or who are on the wanted lists.
The higher costs would be more than repaid by the increased revenue and the community safety benefits.
A bit big brother maybe but far more effective and workable than the existing system.

if we are going to be practical then we must acknowledge translink is here to stay. if you meant only in regards to revenue protection then I also don't think that is a good idea. I think having the one set of officers that can have authority on all public transport is the way to go. Otherwise we are still duplicating services.


While we are at it I think the whole idea of silent carriages is stupid. People talking is far more intrusive I find. It is not just noisy school kids there are adults with awful ear piercing laughs as  well.

[#Metro]

One set of officers, I agree.
They should have restrain and detention powers so that they don't stand around like dead fish while someone gets the wind bashed out of them on the platform like in Seattle.

You could have different grades within the single set of officers. Police should be involved when difficult cases happen- like large gangs, graffiti people on tracks, things like that.

[BribieG]

When it's go-card only in the not to distant future surely unemployed people should be eligible for a half price card like the seniors and disabled, and they can use it without any embarassment. Currently you have to present a voucher at a ticket window to get the Centrelink travel - sort of like food stamps - I know because I'm a sometime Centrelink client. I'm 61 so have a seniors go card but still work part time, but happily take advantage of the over 60s card - why not - and feel a similar benefit should be available for younger kids doing it tougher than I am.

On the other side of the coin, there is definitely a culture on the Caboolture line that the train service is a government supplied free shuttle service to allow kids with small chrome bikes and skateboards who should be at school or work, using the trains to hang around and associate with other loser mates at Morayfield, Burpengary etc. This is now spilling over into the 20s and even 30s age groups who drink and swear and generally make life miserable for genuine travellers and yes travellers going to job interviews.

I have been commuting on the Caboolture line into town for the last six years and you rarely see TOs North of Zillmere. No exaggeration. If I wasn't getting off at a controlled gate (Valley in my case) I reckon I could have got away with free travel all those years, or with a couple of fines per year which would have covered my travel no problems.

[p858snake]

What extra skills do the rail cops even have?

Why not just scrape them all and pay for extra police that have guaranteed placement/service for/on public transport systems (bus/ferries/rail etc)? seems pointless to be paying different things and different training when all we want is the same single outcome from the groups.