Brisbane Underground Metro System

[#Metro]

This is the inner section of the QR network, parts of which I think perhaps could be looked at for running more intense service frequencies (red). It may require the construction of turnbacks etc and some thought re signalling, tracks etc. It is an outline. But fundamentally, I think it would be faster to achieve, cheaper and serve more people.

Look at the proposed TMR metro alignment (blue) and compare that to the red sections (QR). Which covers more of the city? What's needed is decent frequency on the red lines IMHO. Add more trains to the Ipswich line, More to the Ferny Grove Line, More to Shorncliffe, more to Cleveland up to about Murrarie, More to the inner section of the beenleigh line (will help with CRR) and up the frequency. Doomben could be run as a shuttle, Metro Trains Melbourne does something similar with the Williamstown line and also the Cranbourne line (after dark)

Waste not, want not.

[#Metro]

And if we add in the busway network alignments (which I suggest to be upgraded to metro), the argument that not enough people live near either of these two alignments starts to look a bit weak. Literally we would have infrastructure coming out of our ears. I have proposed a rail extension alongside sunnybank in this map.

[#Metro]

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/04/australia-the-pitfalls-of-metroenvy.html

It's been easy to jump from those desires to the notion that since Australia doesn't have metros now, it needs to build them.  But Bowen's work in Melbourne (and our own work on the Sydney Morning Herald inquiry) are pointing out that our cities already have a network of grade-separated rail lines covering the areas of European density, and that the quickest way to get a "metro" level of mobility is simply to run these lines much more frequently.

[ozbob]

 

Nice work LD.

[SurfRail]

LONG POST

I've had another play around with what the heavy rail network should look like - firstly pre-CRR, then by the 2040s.

This ignores LRT and metro corridors.  I expect the Gold Coast network would continue to expand along the lines I have discussed previously.  I think LD's metro concept is very sound, except that I would have the following:
- 2 northern branches forking at Aspley - one to the nearest NWTC station, and one to Carseldine.
- One of those branches would go all the way to Loganholme, the other would only operate as far as Garden City, hence not overserving the periphery
- I think it is going to be easiest to maintain the current INB route from Roma Street to the RBWH via QUT Kelvin Grove.
- The east-west route could be Gold Coast style light rail due to the likely lower passenger volumes, but the north south one would have to be heavier duty (500+ capacity per service and off-road, so something not too dissimilar from the newer 3-car DLR trains in London).

The design philosophy is to disaggregate the core of the network to provide 4 separate through-routed track pairs.  The light metro alignment would take the busway corridor with some modification, so no significant imposition on what I am proposing.

Pre-CRR network

Service characteristics

15 minute off-peak frequency is achieved everywhere except north of Caboolture, west of Ipswich, south of Coopers Plains and the Doomben branch (where 2 tph services operate at minimum, except north of Nambour where it would be a few per day to Cooroy or beyond).

Sector 1:

1. Caboolture to Ipswich - all Caboolture to Petrie, then Strathpine, Northgate, Eagle Junction, all Bowen Hills to Milton, Indooroopilly, Darra, all Darra to Ipswich
2. Kippa-Ring to Springfield Central - all Kippa-Ring to Northgate, then Eagle Junction, then all Bowen Hills to Springfield Central
9. Sunshine Coast to Roma Street - all stations from Nambour to Caboolture, then Petrie, Northgate, Eagle Junction and Bowen Hills, then all stations to Roma Street.  Some services will extend to/from Cooroy or Gympie North.
10. Rosewood shuttle - no through services past Ipswich.

Sector 2:

3. Shorncliffe to Cleveland - all stations in the off-peak, peak hour expresses run express from Wynnum Central to Buranda.
4. Airport to Roma Street - preferably all stations if contractual requirement can be relaxed, otherwise as per current.  (Supplementary full time service to allow 15 minute frequency to the Airport).
5. Airport to Gold Coast - current, except all trains stop at Park Road, Altandi, Loganlea and Beenleigh no matter the time of day.
6. Ferny Grove to Beenleigh - all stations in the off-peak, peak hour expresses run express from Kuraby to Park Road.
7. Ferny Grove to Coopers Plains - all stations
8. Doomben to Roma Street - all stations

Infrastructure requirements

Extensions

- Petrie to Kippa-Ring
- Richlands to Springfield Central

Amplifications

- 2 realigned tracks from Landsborough to Beerburrum
- 3 tracks from Caboolture to Petrie
- 4 tracks from Petrie to Strathpine
- 2 tracks from Sandgate to Shorncliffe and either a lengthened Cronulla style platform for Shorncliffe with an "A" and "B" end, extending into the current dead end, or a second platform (the gunzel in me cries about this because it would make it harder to run steam there if the triangle has to go, but if it works out as a better option then the anoraks will have to get their jollies elsewhere).
- 2 tracks from Manly to Cleveland
- Doomben line is either duplicated or at minimum has a passing loop and both platforms at Ascot and Doomben working regularly
- Coomera River duplication is done to allow better peak services

2040s network

Service characteristics

15 minute off-peak frequency is achieved everywhere except the Sunshine Coast Hinterland (north from Caboolture along the NCL) and west of Wulkuraka.

Sector "0":

0. Roma Street to Bowen Hills via Ekka - inner city shuttle.  This maintains service to the Ekka redevelopment and RBWH without needing to divert services here from CRR1 as is currently intended.  A 5th platform would be needed at Bowen Hills connected to the "hole in the wall".  Would probably run to and from platform 10 at Roma Street unless occupied by long distance trains, in which case it would be platform 7.

Sector 1 (via CRR2):

4. Strathpine to Wulkuraka - all stations Strathpine to Darra, then Redbank and then all stations to Wulkuraka
5. Shorncliffe to Redbank - all stations
11. Ipswich to Gatton - all stations

Sector 2 (via Merivale Bridge):

8. Ferny Grove to Kuraby - all stations.
9. Ferny Grove to Clevelandp - all stations in the off-peak, peak hour expresses run express from Wynnum Central to Buranda.

Sector 3 (via NWTC and CRR1):

1. Sunshine Coast to Gold Coast - Maroochydore, Caloundra, Caloundra South, all stations Beerwah to Caboolture, then Petrie, Strathpine, Alderley, all stations Roma Street to Yeerongpilly, Salisbury, Kuraby, Beenleigh, Coomera, Helensvale, Parkwood, Nerang, Robina, Elanora and Coolangatta
2. Caboolture to Coomera - all stations Caboolture to Petrie, then Strathpine, all stations Strathpine to Yeerongpilly
3. Kippa-Ring to Flagstone - all stations Kippa-Ring to Yeerongpilly, then all stations Salisbury to Flagstone
10. Sunshine Coast Hinterland - all stations from Beerwah to Nambour, Cooroy or Gympie North.
12. Sunshine Coast local – all stations from Beerwah to Maroochydore
13. Gold Coast local – all stations from Coomera to Coolangatta

The coast locals provide service to suburban type stations in between those on the express pattern to Brisbane (ie the less prominent and heavily patronised ones).  This speeds up the expresses.

The small number of stations to be provided on the NWTC means only "CoastLink" trains will need to run express through this section and can be timetabled around.

Sector 4 (via main line)

6. Hamilton Northshore to Springfield Central - all stations
7. Brisbane Domestic Airport to Ipswich - all stations from the airport terminals to Milton, then Indooroopilly, Corinda, Oxley, Darra, Springfield Central, then all stations to Ipswich..

Infrastructure requirements

Extensions
- Yeerongpilly to Roma Street via Gabba
- Strathpine to Roma Street via Alderley
- Eagle Junction to Corinda via Teneriffe, Riverside, South Bank and UQ
- Springfield Central to Ipswich
- Salisbury to Flagstone
- Beerwah to Maroochydore
- Varsity Lakes to Coolangatta
- Doomben to Hamilton Northshore

Amplifications
- 2 realigned tracks from Nambour to Landsborough
- Possible fifth track in the vicinity of Toombul-Wooloowin for freight/long-distance to get around the Sector 1 and 4 lines converging at  Eagle Junction and Sector 4 lines descending into CRR2
- 4 tracks from Corinda to Redbank (electrification of current 4th track Corinda to Darra) and additional platform at Oxley
- 3 tracks from Redbank to Ipswich
- 2 realigned tracks from Grandchester to Gatton through the Little Liverpool range and with electrification installed
- 4 passenger tracks from Yeerongpilly to Salisbury and 1 dual gauge freight/NSW train track
- 4 tracks from Salisbury to Loganlea
- Preferably - realign tracks from Coopers Plains to Fruitgrove and from Compton Road to Kingston to speed up transit times and consolidate station locations
- Infill stations on the Gold Coast line for local services
- Additional platforms at new interchange stations (Beerwah, Kuraby, Coomera, Bowen Hills, Strathpine)
- Upgrade Boggo Junction to eliminate or minimise crossing conflicts between Cleveland and Kuraby trains
- Prioritise development around the Ferny Grove line and inner core of the network to stimulate patronage, create value capture and improve operating and capital cost recovery
- Sell off Mayne north yards
- 3 principal train depots/maintenance centres at Mayne (Sectors 2 and 4), Clapham (Sector 3) and Wulkuraka (Sector 1 – NGR), and additional/expanding out-stabling points elsewhere

[HappyTrainGuy]

At James. Re Gold Coast-Airport service pattern. The Airport-Roma Street leg is unlikely to change as its not a translink route and is actually paid for by the airport mob so they have a say in what the train does as they are the ones paying for them. The express part also makes up some of their marketing.

[ozbob]

Thanks SurfRail.  Looks good to me!

[James]

This is the inner section of the QR network, parts of which I think perhaps could be looked at for running more intense service frequencies (red). It may require the construction of turnbacks etc and some thought re signalling, tracks etc. It is an outline. But fundamentally, I think it would be faster to achieve, cheaper and serve more people.

Look at the proposed TMR metro alignment (blue) and compare that to the red sections (QR). Which covers more of the city? What's needed is decent frequency on the red lines IMHO. Add more trains to the Ipswich line, More to the Ferny Grove Line, More to Shorncliffe, more to Cleveland up to about Murrarie, More to the inner section of the beenleigh line (will help with CRR) and up the frequency. Doomben could be run as a shuttle, Metro Trains Melbourne does something similar with the Williamstown line and also the Cranbourne line (after dark)

Waste not, want not.

By looking at it that way you're missing the whole point of the metro. The metro is to service short, inner CBD trips. Yes, there is gain to be made by building surface lines out in the burbs, but this metro is 30 years away. We are not talking about this metro being the new Cleveland solution, we are talking about it replacing the swathe of buses serving the inner suburbs of Brisbane.

Here is a map of my solution, post inner city rail links.
Inner City Infrastructure to be built:
CRR1 - Yeerongpilly to Victoria Park
This is pretty self-explanatory.
CRR2 - Morningside to Trouts Road
Once Mains Road rail line is completed (Mains Road trains to come over Merivale), Trouts Road and CRR2 should be built simultaneously so trains go Cleveland - Caboolture via CBD/Kelvin Grove. This line could pop up closer to the CBD in exchange for express running
5th and 6th Track - Central to Eagle Junction
This isn't my favourite part, but it allows Ipswich/Springfield to utilise quad Darra - Roma Street effectively and six tracks between Roma Street and Central). 6 tracks Bowen Hills - Eagle Junction allows Airport, Shorncliffe and Kippa-Ring trains to remain sectorised without digging a third tunnel. Cost effective because it doesn't involve digging a tunnel from as far out as Corinda all the way to somewhere like Eagle Junction.
I'm not aware of restrictions which would make this not feasible, aside from it being hell for any engineers working on the project.
North-West Busway
I'm not firmly set on the concept of a busway to the north-west/south-west suburbs, the main reason I included it is I disagree with sending all buses/bi-artics from Carindale to UQ because demand is only during around half the year and is different to demand for CBD travel. I also think forcing interchange close to the CBD (i.e. Buranda) is counter-productive.  It is better to have bi-artics running regularly from 8MP/Carindale to Chermside/western location via the CBD and put on UQ-bound bi-artics as necessary rather than force interchange for both 8MP passengers heading to UQ and Carindale passengers going to the CBD. Maybe Campbell will listen if we send it to Ashgrove, getting Quirk on board when we tell him it will follow the MaroonGlider alignment? 

Once these are all completely built, aside from Gold Coast/Beenleigh and Kippa-Ring/Sunshine Coast in CRR1, the entire passenger network is totally sectorised. CRR2 alignment isn't firm, nor are my line parings - this is something I whipped up in the last half hour given we aren't discussing outer suburbs - but mostly the inner city is dealt with. This allows a metro to run independent of the current system covering inner city areas not already served. As I said, I'm not against LRT for West End/New Farm, I just think metro would be faster, serve areas otherwise unserved and give additional river crossings.

Colours:
Red - Ipswich to Shorncliffe
Blue - Springfield to Airport
Purple - CRR2 (Cleveland to Caboolture)
Maroon - CRR1 (Beenleigh/GC to Kippa-Ring/SC)
Dark Green - Indooroopilly to Doomben Metro
Orange - Flagstone to Ferny Grove
Black - Busway core section + to UQ Lakes
Pink - 8MP to Carseldine (or other northern rail node)
Light Green - Carindale/Capalaba to NW Location

At James. Re Gold Coast-Airport service pattern. The Airport-Roma Street leg is unlikely to change as its not a translink route and is actually paid for by the airport mob so they have a say in what the train does as they are the ones paying for them. The express part also makes up some of their marketing.

I thought there may have been some contractual thing there. Still, even with Airtrain at 4tph, it still leaves Shorncliffe with around 6tph in peak (giving room for 10tph at Ferny Grove - I'm ignoring restrictions on here if there are any) - 10 minute frequency is good enough here. Yes, it is a decrease in service for some stations, but it is for the greater good.

[ozbob]

... we are talking about it replacing the swathe of buses serving the inner suburbs of Brisbane ...

Yes, exactly James.  The pressures are going to be considerable.  Thanks for sharing your ideas. 

[#Metro]

By looking at it that way you're missing the whole point of the metro. The metro is to service short, inner CBD trips. Yes, there is gain to be made by building surface lines out in the burbs, but this metro is 30 years away. We are not talking about this metro being the new Cleveland solution, we are talking about it replacing the swathe of buses serving the inner suburbs of Brisbane.

Well this is the thing - my proposal reflects my values. Your proposal will be different because your values and mine aren't going to be exactly the same. The inner city is one of the most accessible, transport saturated environments already. Metro down the busway would wipe out much of the BT bus network from ever entering the inner city. Hence why IMHO Quirk is so desperate to get his bus tunnel built and further entrench BT as the supplier and not rail solutions.

I feel that Brisbane will continue to be a suburban city well into the future. My map shows just how short that proposed metro will be. Paris, London, Toronto, Melbourne still have buses in the inner sections of the city, nobody has died there.

[Golliwog]

These all look like pretty good ideas. I think just trying to pick one metro corridor and make it as good as possible is going to be the problem. I think at the end of the day, you want to plan around having multiple metro/LRT lines that all serve different routes/purposes rather than trying to just get one to do everything. Interchange if done properly is not a bad thing (think Park Rd train-bus interchange). So rather than trying to come up with one line that does everything, multiple would the the aim. Where you've got the most to gain from something new like this is providing links that don't exist currently, or exist in a poor form. This is mostly going to be new/improved river crossings, but also where the existing network is missing links (eg: Kelvin Grove-Spring Hill, or Milton to Red Hill)

Surfrail, you mentioned development along the FG line, not sure how aware you are of various plans for development out here, but this is the Mitchelton neighborhood plan that came into effect March 4 this year: http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/planning-building/planning-guidelines-and-tools/neighbourhood-planning/neighbourhood-plans-in-your-area/mitchelton-centre/index.htm

The basic gist of it is to allow developments of 3-6 storys and up to 10 in some places. There was also previously the Alderley Square proposal for the Coles/Bilo site across the road from Alderley Station but that hasn't gone anywhere recently. So long as they keep a few things like that coming I think the FG line could easily support more than 4tph off-peak. I'm also hoping the plans to develop above the giant FG station car park also go somewhere, as its ripe for it. The small strip next to the BP there could also easily be re-done (currently it's a vacant site that used to be a mower shop that shut and was knocked down for site access/storage during the duplication, a doctors and a dentist, and a small set of shops with a Chemist, a fish and chips shop and something else but nothing much there).

[HappyTrainGuy]

5th and 6th Track - Central to Eagle Junction
This isn't my favourite part, but it allows Ipswich/Springfield to utilise quad Darra - Roma Street effectively and six tracks between Roma Street and Central). 6 tracks Bowen Hills - Eagle Junction allows Airport, Shorncliffe and Kippa-Ring trains to remain sectorised without digging a third tunnel. Cost effective because it doesn't involve digging a tunnel from as far out as Corinda all the way to somewhere like Eagle Junction.
I'm not aware of restrictions which would make this not feasible, aside from it being hell for any engineers working on the project.

That's something that will never see the light of day if a NWTC gets up and running. Any NWTC eliminates the need for a quad Northgate-Strathpine and eliminates the need for an extra track between Bowen Hills and Eagle Junction/Northgate. NWTC has Caboolture and CAMCOS services running that way with a quad Strathpine to Petrie along with Strathpine having an extra 3 platforms (2x 12 car platforms in the middle and 4x 6 car platforms) with a possible freight bypass track. Depending on the layout through the city and rollingstock availability Kippa Ring services might also go via NWTC during peak hour with Petrie/Strathpine starters taking on the duties of Strathpine-City via Northgate.

[Arnz]

General reminder.  All current trains to and/from Gympie North currently run via the Suburbans with the exceptions being the the morning inbound arrivals using the mains.  They also use their own 'dedicated' rollingstock with their separate running patterns (exp Bowen Hills to Caboolture non-stop via the Suburban tracks to Northgate and the middle road between Northgate and Petrie).

[James]

Well this is the thing - my proposal reflects my values. Your proposal will be different because your values and mine aren't going to be exactly the same. The inner city is one of the most accessible, transport saturated environments already. Metro down the busway would wipe out much of the BT bus network from ever entering the inner city. Hence why IMHO Quirk is so desperate to get his bus tunnel built and further entrench BT as the supplier and not rail solutions.

I feel that Brisbane will continue to be a suburban city well into the future. My map shows just how short that proposed metro will be. Paris, London, Toronto, Melbourne still have buses in the inner sections of the city, nobody has died there.

I acknowledge Brisbane will be a suburban city, but there will also be high density areas as well, and high-density development in our inner suburbs should be encouraged, rather than setting up sprawl communities 50km from the CBD. I am not against the BT bus network entering the CBD, but over time as busways, metros and additional rail lines get put in, the number of buses entering the city will drop further and further because of the ability to feed the busways. I like bi-artics in that it would allow for a restricted amount of regular buses to still enter the busway. With this idea I am thinking high-frequency only routes to cover areas between interchanges and the CBD which are difficult to turn into feeders or are required for local access near the city (think Kingsford Smith Drive, Bardon, Cavendish Road, current Route 120, a Coro Drive Route and the odd local service in West End or New Farm).

That's something that will never see the light of day if a NWTC gets up and running. Any NWTC eliminates the need for a quad Northgate-Strathpine and eliminates the need for an extra track between Bowen Hills and Eagle Junction/Northgate. NWTC has Caboolture and CAMCOS services running that way with a quad Strathpine to Petrie along with Strathpine having an extra 3 platforms (2x 12 car platforms in the middle and 4x 6 car platforms) with a possible freight bypass track. Depending on the layout through the city and rollingstock availability Kippa Ring services might also go via NWTC during peak hour with Petrie/Strathpine starters taking on the duties of Strathpine-City via Northgate.

This may sound ignorant, but how does NWTC free the bottleneck Central - Eagle Junction (without building a whole new inner city line)?

My plan involves sending Ipswich, Springfield and Flagstone (via Merivale) trains through the core section, with Flagstone heading off to FG, Springfield off to the Airport, Ipswich off to Shorncliffe and Beenleigh/GC (once it joins the main corridor again past the FG flyover) off to Kippa-Ring/SC (via the current Caboolture corridor). NWTC is connected to the Cleveland Line in my plan - I believe it is different in Connecting SEQ 2031 though.

The reason why I want six tracks here is four will end up leaving about half of Roma Street/Central disused in peak - a poor use of pre-existing infrastructure, not to mention all lines and busways aside from NWTC - Cleveland will connect here.

[#Metro]

I acknowledge Brisbane will be a suburban city, but there will also be high density areas as well, and high-density development in our inner suburbs should be encouraged, rather than setting up sprawl communities 50km from the CBD. I am not against the BT bus network entering the CBD, but over time as busways, metros and additional rail lines get put in, the number of buses entering the city will drop further and further because of the ability to feed the busways. I like bi-artics in that it would allow for a restricted amount of regular buses to still enter the busway. With this idea I am thinking high-frequency only routes to cover areas between interchanges and the CBD which are difficult to turn into feeders or are required for local access near the city (think Kingsford Smith Drive, Bardon, Cavendish Road, current Route 120, a Coro Drive Route and the odd local service in West End or New Farm).

Firstly I think people should generally be free to live wherever they want. So long as they pay the costs associated with that. The reason why suburbs move progressively outwards is because it is cheaper than fighting NIMBYs and BANANAS, politicians are only too happy to boost themselves in toxic residential politics (especially any building that is higher than existing residents' - it is like a threat), the infrastructure is cheaper than to upgrade existing infrastructure and basic cars are ridiculously affordable (as I have myself discovered on various car websites).

Secondly money spent on one project is money not spent on another. Having a north-south subway to cut off the buses from entering the CBD and freeing up resources for suburban high frequency is important to me

Thirdly, the greatest block to decent public transport isn't a lack of infrastructure. It is Brisbane City Council and Brisbane Transport. I suspect if we didn't have to pour so much money into funding waste, there would be more propensity to fund upgraded rail as well.

[minbrisbane]

Secondly money spent on one project is money not spent on another. Having a north-south subway to cut off the buses from entering the CBD and freeing up resources for suburban high frequency is important to me

Thirdly, the greatest block to decent public transport isn't a lack of infrastructure. It is Brisbane City Council and Brisbane Transport. I suspect if we didn't have to pour so much money into funding waste, there would be more propensity to fund upgraded rail as well.

Absolutely agree.  Converting the SEB + NB to metro seems a no-brainer to me. Most (if not all) bus routes would become high frequency feeders to the line.  Shorter routes = more frequency on current routes and others with poor frequency.

[Golliwog]

James, NWTC effectively becomes the 3rd track pair you want to build Central-Eagle Junction. In current plans, it joins the Ferny Grove line around Alderley/Newmarket, shares a station, then tunnels under Kelvin Grove and connects to CRR. So you get a Caboolture/SC to Beenleigh/GC line.

I can see your point about the Milton/Merivale-Roma St bottleneck, and I do see a need for 'something' to be done about that, but I don't think you need to go the whole way through to Central/Eagle Junction. Though if we ever get CRR 1 & 2 (I believe CRR2 is a tunnel somewhere around Indooroopilly, under West End and the City then I'm not sure where to after that) I think the 2nd pair of tracks from Milton to Corinda may become primarily freight rather than passenger so you only need an extra track around the corner to Normanby.

[James]

James, NWTC effectively becomes the 3rd track pair you want to build Central-Eagle Junction. In current plans, it joins the Ferny Grove line around Alderley/Newmarket, shares a station, then tunnels under Kelvin Grove and connects to CRR. So you get a Caboolture/SC to Beenleigh/GC line.

I can see your point about the Milton/Merivale-Roma St bottleneck, and I do see a need for 'something' to be done about that, but I don't think you need to go the whole way through to Central/Eagle Junction. Though if we ever get CRR 1 & 2 (I believe CRR2 is a tunnel somewhere around Indooroopilly, under West End and the City then I'm not sure where to after that) I think the 2nd pair of tracks from Milton to Corinda may become primarily freight rather than passenger so you only need an extra track around the corner to Normanby.

Thank you for that clarification.

The reason for 6 tracks Eagle Junction - CBD is because there are three lines going through there in my plan at all times. As a train from Flagstone leaves for Ferny Grove, CRR1 trains from Beenleigh/GC emerge to go to either Kippa-Ring/Caboolture and the Sunshine Coast. Springfield-Airport and Ipswich-Shorncliffe all share a common corridor Darra to Eagle Junction. Yes, you could do four tracks, but that breaks with sectorisation. This could be a bit of over engineering, but with decent signalling, every line is designed so it can handle 24tph and no line is impacted by delays on another (excluding times when corridors are shared e.g. Northgate to Darra, Yeerongpilly to Salisbury/Altandi etc.)

I believe CRR2 was planned to be Corinda - somewhere northside via UQ and the CBD. I don't think there is enough freight demand to warrant two dedicated tracks just for freight along the Corinda - Roma Street corridor, and given the amount of tunnelling it would be pricey for little gain - especially given between UQ and Corinda, in a straight line, all you have is Long Pocket and the edge of Yeronga. UQ is covered by the metro, so that is that issue solved. There may be a need for a freight curfew in core peak, but off-peak, even at 8tph, there would still be room

I don't particularly like that part of the NWTC mostly due to track capacity and sectorisation. A second CRR is needed, so why not connect it up to the Cleveland line? Cleveland line alignment is currently very indirect after Morningside, and by doing this, combined with speeding the line up and removing single track, it could warrant an extension to Victoria Point. Under the current plan, Flagstone, Beenleigh and Gold Coast trains end up in the one tunnel. If you put Flagstone trains above ground, you end up with capacity issues in the CBD which need the 6 tracks Central - Eagle Junction again (not to mention capacity issues over the Merivale). Oh, and we have an unused Exhibition loop and conflicting moves.

I see extending CRR1 to NWTC as doing things in a cheap way. The current alignment to the Sunshine Coast is fine. Trip times from Central are reasonable and competitive with Gympie Road/Bruce Highway. Money would be better spent on fixing the abysmal Beenleigh Line alignment to get GC trains which can get to Beenleigh in 25 minutes from Roma Street. 80 km/h average speed Park Road - Beenleigh should be the aim (right now it is about 62 km/hr).

[James]

Q, why would you force an extra track or two up to EJ when the corridor is very constricted now and twisty, especially just after EJ. Why not just focus on Trouts Rd which leaves the SC, DM, AP and southern Nth line to Bald Hills to the current tracks. Cab, MBRL and SC services get to use the Trouts Road route.

Freight I would do a Sydney and provide a dedicate route either via existing route via EJ or via Trouts Road.

Between Corinda and Roma St, similar feelings that freight can be pushed onto its own track to enable 3 tracks for peak usage. Nominally two outside peak. Bore a tunnel off the route prior to Roma St to by-pass the complex junction and then onto Normandy.

It's the 'best worst' solution. The only other solution is to leave large amounts of infrastructure unused. Using Trouts Road for Caboolture, MBRL and SC leaves rail from Northgate - Strathpine empty (against sending Shorncliffe services up there as this splits frequency). Trouts Road, especially to Kippa-Ring, I don't see as being much faster than it is now (the main one would be station spacing). Express running BH - Northgate stopping only at Eagle Junction would be already occurring. My thought was property acquisitions. Yes, not desirable but we want every line with its own two tracks - so delays on one line do not affect another (aside from when they share a common corridor).

A tunnel lets say from Corinda to Eagle Junction would come at huge cost. Putting the tunnel any further in (especially lets say, Indooroopilly) will just result in it duplicating the existing corridor, and leave two tracks unused (there will never be a need for >20tph from Ipswich). In my plan, Ipswich uses the mains (Sherwood 3/4 to Roma Street 8/9), Springfield uses the suburbans (Sherwood 1/2 to Roma Street 6/7) and Flagstone uses the current suburbans/new local (South Brisbane 1/2 to Roma Street 4/5). Platform 2/3 for redundancy/terminating services/XPT. Doomben line, by this point, is mothballed by the metro/improved bus services.

Springfield can all stop Richlands - CBD, Ipswich trains can still operate express Darra - Milton. Even off-peak, we are only talking 6tph - 8tph per track maximum off-peak? There is room for freight.

[HappyTrainGuy]

It all depends on rollingstock and infrastructure layout/availability. Kippa Ring trains would service Stratpine-Northgate off peak so there are no issues there. During peak hour they might head via Trouts road/NWTC as an express service due to the longer stop spacing and faster running compared to Northgate-Bowen Hills. Petrie and Strathpine starters would take over the all stations Petrie/Strathpine-Northgate and to the city during peak hour (which is what currently is happening). Doing this enables the Petrie/Strathpine-Northgate to City corridor to maintain the same infrastructure such as no need for a quad and platforms lengths as the current corridor is very tight around stations and current road infrastructure. During peak hour Caboolture line frequencies won't be increased but longer rollingstock would be available.

During peak hour only Shorncliffe services can then shuffle over onto the mains (still maintaining their sectors) as there will be sufficient space due to the lack of Caboolture/CAMOS/etc going via Trouts Road. Frequency can then be boosted on airport/doomben/ferny grove. I think it was QR or some government report said that frequency would be cut in favor of longer trains for more capacity during peak hour.

[Old Northern Road]

Trouts Rd will be a lot faster than the existing route. Even stopping all stations via Trouts Rd should be faster than running express via Northgate. I estimate that Strathpine to Albert St should take around 18-19mins express or about 4mins more if it stops all stations.

I'm pretty sure Connecting SEQ 2031 had Maroochydore and Caboolture trains running via Trouts Rd and Kippa-Ring trains via Northgate running express from Strathpine. The only reason to have Kippa-Ring trains going via Northgate is to serve Exhibition station. I'd prefer if they forget about a station at Exhibition so Kippa-Ring could go via Trouts Rd. Although If Kippa-Ring trains were to use Trouts Rd you would need 4 tracks between Strathpine and Alderley.

Strathpine via Northgate trains could use the Suburbans between Northgate and Albion to free up the mains so they could become freight only. Build a 5th track between Strathpine and Petrie and a 3rd track between Petrie and Caboolture and you could completely separate freight from the Caboolture line.

[somebody]

Back to freight route on western line

What about freight via Springfield?  Has this been discussed before?

[mufreight]

Back to freight route on western line

What about freight via Springfield?  Has this been discussed before?

Highly unlikely that freight will ever be routed via Springfield, a quick look at any map shows why.
There have been some logical practical ideas posted on this thread but who needs to buy shaving cream with the amount of foam that has been posted.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Not to mention passenger trains would hunt down the freighters at a massive speed. Springfield will have 130kph line running IIRC.

[ozbob]

140 km/h  ...   

[SurfRail]

I'm pretty sure Connecting SEQ 2031 had Maroochydore and Caboolture trains running via Trouts Rd and Kippa-Ring trains via Northgate running express from Strathpine. The only reason to have Kippa-Ring trains going via Northgate is to serve Exhibition station. I'd prefer if they forget about a station at Exhibition so Kippa-Ring could go via Trouts Rd. Although If Kippa-Ring trains were to use Trouts Rd you would need 4 tracks between Strathpine and Alderley.

Strathpine via Northgate trains could use the Suburbans between Northgate and Albion to free up the mains so they could become freight only. Build a 5th track between Strathpine and Petrie and a 3rd track between Petrie and Caboolture and you could completely separate freight from the Caboolture line.

I actually forgot about Exhibition while I was doing up my diagram for the indicative 2040s network above, and I absolutely agree - it makes it so much easier it isn't funny.  If you still want a station right in the middle of that redevelopment, you just combine that with a redevelopment of Bowen Hills to allow 5 DDA compliant platforms, one of which is a dock platform on the western side.  Feed that into Roma Street platform 10 unless there is a long distance train there, in which case it can go to platform 7 (and this can be timetabled around).

If you build the NWTC, I think you would only need a third track from Caboolture to Petrie and 4 tracks from Petrie to Strathpine.  I think it would be sufficient to run the freight along the 2 Kippa-Ring tracks between Petrie and Strathpine.  Here's a notional diagram (with the fifth track plotted in grey if it were to exist, and obviously some of the other infrastructure like the grade-sepped crossing somewhere before Strathpine would be unnecessary):

A fifth track would be ideal, but I am not sure there is enough room, and the 2 eastern tracks would only have 4tph in the off-peak for the foreseeable future.  You could perhaps make more room by rebuilding Lawnton and Bray Park so they only have 2 platforms located on the Kippa-Ring tracks.  Likewise, the local train terminating at Strathpine would only need a single platform at a time, leaving enough room for the freight to get through onto the dedicated freight track from Strathpine to Northgate (which would be the westernmost one).

From Northgate to the Ekka Loop, I'm not sure what the solution is.  Rather than build a fifth track, it would be better in my view to run the Strathpine and Shorncliffe trains on the same tracks, leaving the other 2 free for freight and long distance, but with frequent enough services the junction conflicts at Northgate might become unmanageable.  However, as this is the only problem, it might be easier to do a grade sep project of some kind here rather than having to widen the whole corridor to Eagle Junction. 

South of Eagle Junction under my foamy proposal, once again you only have 2 patterns occupying the current corridor - Doomben and Airport trains on the suburban tracks, with the mains clear because Strathpine and Shorncliffe trains are feeding into CRR2.

Eagle Junction would need 6 tracks from the airport junction to the CRR2 dives but only 4 platforms.  You would probably need to resume most of the properties on the northern side of Norman Parade to rearrange the corridor and station to fit this.

[HappyTrainGuy]

140 km/h  ...   

Even better.

Also RTT, Bald Hills won't have a new station. The NWTC will split 600m south of Strathpine station/600m north of Bald Hills station and head across the flood plains elevated. There are housing estates and a future bridge in the way if you want it to join the mains before Bald Hills. Strathpine is slated for the major interchange station so it will have extra platforms and connected to the bus network with a new bus/rail interchange. The rail network will also resume the existing properties along the Strathpine station side so it will have 7 tracks (4 through - 2 main 2 sub, 1 freight bypass and the 2 dock platforms of which one will connect to the subs from the north).

[James]

Trouts Rd will be a lot faster than the existing route. Even stopping all stations via Trouts Rd should be faster than running express via Northgate. I estimate that Strathpine to Albert St should take around 18-19mins express or about 4mins more if it stops all stations.

I'm pretty sure Connecting SEQ 2031 had Maroochydore and Caboolture trains running via Trouts Rd and Kippa-Ring trains via Northgate running express from Strathpine. The only reason to have Kippa-Ring trains going via Northgate is to serve Exhibition station. I'd prefer if they forget about a station at Exhibition so Kippa-Ring could go via Trouts Rd. Although If Kippa-Ring trains were to use Trouts Rd you would need 4 tracks between Strathpine and Alderley.

Strathpine via Northgate trains could use the Suburbans between Northgate and Albion to free up the mains so they could become freight only. Build a 5th track between Strathpine and Petrie and a 3rd track between Petrie and Caboolture and you could completely separate freight from the Caboolture line.

The reason I don't like that is unless there are four tracks all the way, it gives serious corridor capacity issues in the CBD. It also maintains the Cleveland line's indirect alignment. My plan gives all lines (aside from the coasts in the inner city, which could do with 9-car trains operating less frequently) their own two tracks. Yes, it costs a lot, but from that point the system will be totally reliable with minimal to no conflicting moves and delays on one line not affecting the others (unlike what can occur otherwise). No need to modify Park Road junction either.

I acknowledge Trouts Road would be quicker, but I think getting the Sunny Coast line there in my plan would be difficult. There is the option of having a connection between the Cleveland-Caboolture via Trouts Road and Beenleigh-MBRL via Northgate option, but that'd require a lot of work. With Trouts Road, if you did put SC trains up through there I'd make it either 3 or 4 tracks, Caboolture trains all-stopping and Sunny Coast trains running express Alderley/Ennogera to Caboolture stopping only at Strathpine.

Freight rail for me isn't a huge issue. Under my plan, each line has capacity of 20tph - or along the Eagle Junction - CBD corridor, a capacity of 60tph. I would think about looking into a proper freight corridor and the demands of each. Port of Brisbane - NCL traffic may be low enough that it could just be sorted by through-routing trains via the Doomben line (no longer carrying passenger rail). With the metro (in fact the original topic of the thread) Doomben gets covered well enough that the Doomben line can be shut. In my personal opinion the line is too short and duplicates too much of the pre-existing rail network.

[HappyTrainGuy]

@SR. If there was to be a 5th track Northgate-Bowen Hills the properties on the west would be resumed to Nundha. Nundha station would need to resume to Woolies parking lot, a new overpass to the south of the station, a new 8 lane overpass for Sandgate Road, height restrictions for the Sandgate road tunnel (steeper approach now), a new rail bridge at Toombul, a new station walkway at Toombul, massive property resumptions around Eagle Junction including all the shops, massive earthworks, 2 new overpasses at Eagle Junction, property resumptions on the western side from Eagle Junction Station to Wooloowin, earthworks to bring up the 3-4m elevation difference, property resumptions from Wooloowin-Albion, demolition and new ped overpass at Wooloowin, a new road Wooloowin-Albion, 2 new overpasses Wooloowin-Albion, resume the park and ride at Albion, removal of the Albion ped overpass, possible mods to the Albion Road overpass and finally property resumptions of a couple properties before it can join the existing track.

Freight won't be going via NWTC AFAIK and from what I heard a while ago if Petrie didn't have a flyover citybound freighters would stay on the mains with priority and run straight into the middle road at Bald Hills or if there was a flyover it would go off the Caboolture line under the MBRL outbound flyover and join the sub all the way to Strathpine where it would then continue Bald Hills, Carseldine, Zillmere, Geebung etc to Normanby (middle road Northgate-Bald Hills would basically became a freight bypass/holding/overtaking road). Outbound I think it was a flat junction where freights would maintain speed to access the bypass straight away or stick to the mains (personally I don't see a bypass road around Strathpine being a reality and to save funds just add a couple crossovers north of Carseldine so Kippa Ring trains can access the middle road with the current main being the holding loop because of the level crossing removal on Telegraph road).

[somebody]

Not to mention passenger trains would hunt down the freighters at a massive speed. Springfield will have 130kph line running IIRC.

How fast would a loaded coalie be allowed to go under greens on it?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Roughly a tick over 70-80kph in the suburban area IIRC. Max would be 95kph due to rollingstock restrictions (all freight wagons and most coalie wagons have 100kph restrictions - This can sometimes be visible as a red circle with 100 on the sides of the wagons. IIRC passenger trains are permitted to run at 100kph on the Caboolture line while freights have a 80kph max restriction although that might have changed since 05 or 06).

[somebody]

Roughly a tick over 80kph in the suburban area IIRC. Max would be 95kph due to rollingstock restrictions.

That fast?  Doesn't sound like a passenger train would hunt it down much at all.  IIRC Gold Coast trains average 85km/h between Beenleigh and Robina with wider station spacing than exists on the Springfield line.

[HappyTrainGuy]

IIRC weren't Beenleigh-Helensvale trains averaging 95kph+ for the 27km in 16-17 minutes 15+ years ago with clear track?

[somebody]

IIRC weren't Beenleigh-Helensvale trains averaging 95kph+ for the 27km in 16-17 minutes 15+ years ago with clear track.

I don't know, but Beenleigh-Helensvale was 18-21 minutes in 2007.  18 minutes = 90km/h, if it's 27km.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I think it was 97-98 with the IMU100/110 series.
19.00 Helensvale depart to Beenleigh depart.
17.50 Helensvale depart to Beenleigh arrival
17.20 Helensvale depart to Beenleigh approach.
16.35+ mins pushing with minimum dwell

[James]

IIRC weren't Beenleigh-Helensvale trains averaging 95kph+ for the 27km in 16-17 minutes 15+ years ago with clear track?

I think that's believable. Beenleigh Depart - Ormeau Depart average speed is 95km/hr. As long as that figure remained constant that would be easily attained.

I think the biggest concern with freights on fast alignment would be trains needing to be spaced far enough so that just before they start decelerating on approach to a station that they don't catch the train in front. But freight in my opinion can stick to slow alignments. Coal will stick to rail generally, and more often than not they're going on long journeys - an extra 5-10 minutes doesn't matter when there's only one person on board (the driver) to complain, especially when the trip is going to take half a day or more.

[petey3801]

Roughly a tick over 70-80kph in the suburban area IIRC. Max would be 95kph due to rollingstock restrictions (all freight wagons and most coalie wagons have 100kph restrictions - This can sometimes be visible as a red circle with 100 on the sides of the wagons. IIRC passenger trains are permitted to run at 100kph on the Caboolture line while freights have a 80kph max restriction although that might have changed since 05 or 06).

AIUI, coalies (at least the West Moreton) are limited to 80km/h.

On the North, freighters can run at up to 100km/h where locos and rollingstock permit. ie: PN freights run at 100km/h, some Aurizon trains as well (general freight etc).

[somebody]

AIUI, coalies (at least the West Moreton) are limited to 80km/h.

I reckon that would be good enough to squeeze between a Springfield train running every 15 minutes though.  I can't imagine there's a huge amount of slack travelling that fast with only 4 aspect signalling.  Probably need to be hard on the brakes as soon as you see a medium.

[mufreight]

The foam over freight operation is beyond belief, there is no source of freight on the Springfield line and it will have no connection with the main western line until such time as the loop line through the Ripley Valley is constructed and makes a connection at Ipswich.
That line would have a trailing connection to the Western main line and for a freight service to then be operated via the Springfield line would require that the train reverse direction at Ipswich to take a longer route, aint going to happen.
Time to cut out the B*** S**t and reduce the foam that does nothing for the credibility of this forum and get a bit real.   

[somebody]

The foam over freight operation is beyond belief, there is no source of freight on the Springfield line and it will have no connection with the main western line until such time as the loop line through the Ripley Valley is constructed and makes a connection at Ipswich.
That line would have a trailing connection to the Western main line and for a freight service to then be operated via the Springfield line would require that the train reverse direction at Ipswich to take a longer route, aint going to happen.
Time to cut out the B*** S**t and reduce the foam that does nothing for the credibility of this forum and get a bit real.   

Get a grip.

Obviously I am referring to such a connection being provided.