Newstead-Bulimba-Cleveland map

[#Metro]

Warning: This is a 'speculative idea' thread.

[#Metro]

In peak hour:
Trains originating from Cleveland or beyond go via Bulimba into the CBD
Trains originating from Carindale go via Bulimba or South Bank into the CBD

In the off-peak
Trains originating from Cleveland or beyond go via Bulimba into the CBD and then return through South Bank and then on to Carindale
Trains originating from Carindale go via South Bank to the CBD then to Cleveland via Bulimba.

Feeder buses to every station. Park and ride and bus-rail interchange at Carindale and Cannon Hill.
The line pairs with itself.

[#Metro]

Edit: South Bank is after the Brisbane river, not before. But you get the general idea.
Edit: The station at the centre of the "cross" is Cannon Hill not Murrarie. Murrarie is the next one to the right.

[Stinktown]

Wow, i can imagine it'd take 1 hr 30 mins + to go from Redland bay to the CBD.

[longboi]

Again I have to question the need for such a gargantuan project.

Bulimba/Balmoral are so close to the City that travel time really doesn't factor into the equation. If a green bridge was built, even with traffic congestion the bus trip would be 20mins at the very most and I know an average Brisbane bus commuter spends much longer than that on a bus.

Murrarie and the parts of Cannon Hill you have indicated are almost all industrial area and sparsely populated. While this idea might be good for people who work out that way, it hardly justifies a new railway line.

Carina/Carindale are quite low density and fairly steady in growth. While this will change in future, there is already the Eastern Busway planned to serve this area when that time comes.

Same goes for the Redlands area. I don't know how you would extend the line considering its pretty much built up all the way to Viccy Point.

[colinw]

How about we all take a collective "chill pill" and focus efforts on getting Cross River Rail committed & under construction!

There's a couple of dozen sensible, feasible and viable projects that need to be rolled out in Brisbane over the next 15-20 years, without adding fantasies like this to the mix.

For reasons I gave in that other thread, any underground connection from the Cleveland line is way down the list of priorities compared to desperately needed capacity upgrades that aren't even committed projects yet.

Right now, in my opinion, the focus should be things like these :-

• Lobbying to ensure Cross River Rail gets funded & underway.
• Getting a change of stance about the missing stations on the new Springfield line.
• Oxley 4th platform & 4th road electrification - will be needed sooner rather than later.
• Coomera to Helensvale duplication
• Planning shortcomings around Yarrabilba, Flagstone, etc
• Service frequency - Brisbane has the worst in Australia
• Lots more ... add you own ...

I'm going to have to come around to stephenk's position here.  We've had this discussion about Cleveland - Newstead, and continued flogging of a dead horse is just going to make RBoT look silly.

[#Metro]

Again I have to question the need for such a gargantuan project.

I question the rationale for the Eastern Busway, which is also expensive (and a gargantuan project) and IMHO has less benefits than rail. Sorry to dissent and spoil the prevailing "busway is great and uncriticisable" mood. I think we are not getting value for money, the number of houses demolished like matchsticks is also bad.

IIRC the cost of underground rail stations in the CBD was $100 million each. So with the money spent on that 1km of busway at Buranda, to save a mere 8 minutes of travel time, which also has rail station around the corner, could have paid for about 5 underground Cross River Rail stations in the Brisbane CBD. I do not want my money wasted like this.

Bulimba/Balmoral are so close to the City that travel time really doesn't factor into the equation. If a green bridge was built, even with traffic congestion the bus trip would be 20mins at the very most and I know an average Brisbane bus commuter spends much longer than that on a bus.

Murrarie and the parts of Cannon Hill you have indicated are almost all industrial area and sparsely populated. While this idea might be good for people who work out that way, it hardly justifies a new railway line.

There already is a large shopping centre out here and a railway line, so I don't think it makes much sense to argue that a railway line around this area is infeasible. Bus routes can operate in extremely low density areas and collect passengers to support rail. The fact that the Cleveland line can collect enough passengers to justify its own existence without relying on a proper feeder bus network is enough evidence against the idea that the density is too low. The fact that rockets and BUZ services operate in this area and get good patronage is further evidence against the idea that the density is too low.

Feeder buses will collect people and support rail, as will the travel time savings and direct connection. The diversion of Cleveland line passengers through the tunnel will also boost patronage.

The above argument also neglects how transportation projects such as this one changes the land use patterns around them and makes living in areas like this more attractive.

[#Metro]

Carina/Carindale are quite low density and fairly steady in growth. While this will change in future, there is already the Eastern Busway planned to serve this area when that time comes.

I question whether building a brand new Eastern Busway would be as good as the incremental development of the existing Cleveland railway line. This busway will also have absolutely no effect on travel times for people at the 14 stations on the Cleveland line (up to and including Cannon Hill) unless they physically transfer from Rail to bus.

Same goes for the Redlands area. I don't know how you would extend the line considering its pretty much built up all the way to Viccy Point.

Places that the Eastern Busway is going through are already developed (Coorparoo, Buranda, Stones Corner etc). I do not see why a railway is not possible along the border of Creek Rd, down at Victoria Pt or in a tunnel underneath Bulimba.

The argument is also contradictory. If a railway cannot be built where the density is higher, and a railway cannot be built where the density is low then it would seem that a railway is infeasible at almost all locations- built and unbuilt in Brisbane. This cannot be true.

[#Metro]

Right now, in my opinion, the focus should be things like these :-

    * Lobbying to ensure Cross River Rail gets funded & underway.
    * Getting a change of stance about the missing stations on the new Springfield line.
    * Oxley 4th platform & 4th road electrification - will be needed sooner rather than later.
    * Coomera to Helensvale duplication
    * Planning shortcomings around Yarrabilba, Flagstone, etc
    * Service frequency - Brisbane has the worst in Australia
    * Lots more ... add you own ...

There is no reason why one cannot walk and chew gum at the same time.

[ozbob]

Relax folks.  An individual's point of view does not mean everyone agrees with that view or that is a consensus.

People are quite capable of judging what is main stream and what are the 'lateral excursions' on a message board.

Colinw's list of priorities is a reflection of our public efforts.   A forum is a forum, discussion is fine.  Just let it go if it doesn't bother you.  Counter the arguments if it does but to imply the world is coming down because someone has a grand plan that you don't agree with is just simply not the case. 

I think things could get real interesting when the mono-rail mob takes up camp!     They are active on the blogs from time to time, the world still goes on ...

[colinw]

Hi Bob. You're not wrong about the Monorail mob!  For a while there, it seemed like every second feedback post I was countering on the Gold Coast Bulletin website was from the "build an enormous monorail" proponents.  I always found it quite comical when you got comments about how ugly light rail overhead electrification is (oh really?!!!), and then in the same paragraph they would suggest putting a dirty great elevated beam down the middle of the road! (Seriously, have these folks been to Darling Harbour and seen what a useless toy that monorail is?)

Interestingly, the anti light rail complaints down that way seem to have calmed down somewhat.  The last couple of article on the Gold Coast Light Rail haven't even attracted any feedback from the formerly vocal Stop Light Rail crowd.

[somebody]

Actually, I would not agree with going via Cannon Hill to get to Carindale.  It would need to be branch from Norman Park in my view.

• Lobbying to ensure Cross River Rail gets funded & underway.
• Getting a change of stance about the missing stations on the new Springfield line.
• Oxley 4th platform & 4th road electrification - will be needed sooner rather than later.
• Coomera to Helensvale duplication
• Planning shortcomings around Yarrabilba, Flagstone, etc
• Service frequency - Brisbane has the worst in Australia
• Lots more ... add you own ...

When you say CRR, so long as you mean what I usually refer to as the 2016 tunnel.  Plans after this are dubious IMO.
I would also question the reason why we need to lobby them for the Coomera-Helensvale duplication.  They will do it when they are forced to do it.  There is no reluctance to get the Gold Coast line working properly.

[colinw]

Actually, I would not agree with going via Cannon Hill to get to Carindale.  It would need to be branch from Norman Park in my view.

... and on that point you would agree with the burghers of the Belmont Shire Council, who built a 3'6" tramway from Norman Park to near Belmont Rifle Range in 1912.  The line closed in the 1920s after Belmont Shire was amalgamated into Brisbane City Council, and BCC extended the electric tramway out that way along Old Cleveland Road.

http://www.yoursuburb.com.au/4152/carina/web/index.asp?p=110,2,101,110

Amusingly, one of the stations on the line was called Springfield

[ozbob]

That is an interesting article from the ARHS Bulletin. 

Some more photographs at the State Library click here!

[longboi]

Again I have to question the need for such a gargantuan project.

I question the rationale for the Eastern Busway, which is also expensive (and a gargantuan project) and IMHO has less benefits than rail. Sorry to dissent and spoil the prevailing "busway is great and uncriticisable" mood. I think we are not getting value for money, the number of houses demolished like matchsticks is also bad.

Nowhere near as expensive as building an entire new railway alignment. The Eastern Busway also passes through populated suburbs (unlike Lytton/Murrarie) which are earmarked for further growth (Stones Corner, Coorparoo).

IIRC the cost of underground rail stations in the CBD was $100 million each. So with the money spent on that 1km of busway at Buranda, to save a mere 8 minutes of travel time, which also has rail station around the corner, could have paid for about 5 underground Cross River Rail stations in the Brisbane CBD. I do not want my money wasted like this.

So are the CRR stations $100M or $20M each?

There already is a large shopping centre out here and a railway line, so I don't think it makes much sense to argue that a railway line around this area is infeasible. Bus routes can operate in extremely low density areas and collect passengers to support rail. The fact that the Cleveland line can collect enough passengers to justify its own existence without relying on a proper feeder bus network is enough evidence against the idea that the density is too low. The fact that rockets and BUZ services operate in this area and get good patronage is further evidence against the idea that the density is too low.

I'm not talking about the Cleveland line though, I'm talking about this alignment you have proposed (i.e. Around Lytton/Murrarie).

Feeder buses will collect people and support rail, as will the travel time savings and direct connection. The diversion of Cleveland line passengers through the tunnel will also boost patronage.

The above argument also neglects how transportation projects such as this one changes the land use patterns around them and makes living in areas like this more attractive.

There are vast swathes of SEQ which still don't have any rail connection at all. I just can't see the possible justification for this sort of rail project to cut a few minutes off a journey and provide rail stations to areas which are primarily industrial.

[#Metro]

Do you mean this?



The station at the centre of the "cross" is Cannon Hill, not Murrarie. Not everything aligned perfectly on the diagram.

Both Stones Corner (Buranda) and Coorparoo already have rail stations. In the case of Stones corner/Buranda both an existing busway and railway station already exist (and they are next to each other too).

FOUR underground train stations planned for Brisbane's inner city will carry a price tag of more than $100 million each.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/underground-train-stations-in-brisbane-to-cost-100m-each/story-e6freoof-1225889128928

[#Metro]

In peak hour:
Trains originating from Cleveland or beyond go via Bulimba into the CBD
Trains originating from Carindale go via Bulimba or South Bank into the CBD

In the off-peak
Trains originating from Cleveland or beyond go via Bulimba into the CBD and then return through South Bank and then on to Carindale
Trains originating from Carindale go via South Bank to the CBD then to Cleveland via Bulimba.

Feeder buses to every station. Park and ride and bus-rail interchange at Carindale and Cannon Hill.

[#Metro]

Edit: Map image has been updated now.

[mufreight]

Perhaps this thread should be renamed then if the less than credible postings of fantasy continue closed in this forum.

[#Metro]

You know the other word for fantasy is -- vision. By putting it out there it can be refined and improved.
OK, so some people don't agree. That's fine. And the very first post is a warning, so people know what to expect.
Nothing wrong with trying to envision a sustainable transport future based around rail.

[ButFli]

The problem with your warning is that you expect people who disagree with you to stay out of the thread leaving only those who agree with you to reply. You only want posts in support of your "vision" and you dismiss those who disagree as being closed-minded (or something). You seem to think that those who agree with you do so because they have made a careful analysis of your plan and those who disagree with you are dismissing it out of hand without much thought. This is already a problem on a forum such as this because all posters have a bias towards public transport as opposed to spending money on something else like a new hospital, museum or saving polar bears. You only make it worse by asking people not to bother with this thread if they don't already agree with you.

I personally think your plan is a lovely idea in so far as it improves services in that small area of Brisbane. The problem is that it is a lot of money for nothing much. In fact it actually creates problems on the wider network that need even more money to fix. It's not a bad plan in that it probably will provide the improvements you say it will. It's just the amount of money required could be spent in so many better ways for so much greater benefit it isn't even worth discussing this one at such great length.

[#Metro]

The warning is there because individuals asked for it and complain when they come across such threads.
The warning has not prevented people disagreeing in this thread.
If people want to post their own ideas, there is nothing preventing them from doing so.

[somebody]

I don't have a problem with the notion of the discussion.  What I do however have a problem with is that it is unnecessary to start the second and third threads on this topic, this one being the third.

The problem with your warning is that you expect people who disagree with you to stay out of the thread leaving only those who agree with you to reply. You only want posts in support of your "vision" and you dismiss those who disagree as being closed-minded (or something). You seem to think that those who agree with you do so because they have made a careful analysis of your plan and those who disagree with you are dismissing it out of hand without much thought.

I would think that the project as suggested by TT probably could not proceed due to making the "More lines from the north" problem worse.  However, the Airtrain project went ahead which did precisely that.  I'm pretty sure this was before the formation of RailBoT though.

[O_128]

I don't have a problem with the notion of the discussion.  What I do however have a problem with is that it is unnecessary to start the second and third threads on this topic, this one being the third.

The problem with your warning is that you expect people who disagree with you to stay out of the thread leaving only those who agree with you to reply. You only want posts in support of your "vision" and you dismiss those who disagree as being closed-minded (or something). You seem to think that those who agree with you do so because they have made a careful analysis of your plan and those who disagree with you are dismissing it out of hand without much thought.

I would think that the project as suggested by TT probably could not proceed due to making the "More lines from the north" problem worse.  However, the Airtrain project went ahead which did precisely that.  I'm pretty sure this was before the formation of RailBoT though.

Would a proper terminating station (similar to southern cross) alleviate some of these problems with an unbalanced north or south??

[#Metro]

I would think that the project as suggested by TT probably could not proceed due to making the "More lines from the north" problem worse.  However, the Airtrain project went ahead which did precisely that.  I'm pretty sure this was before the formation of RailBoT though.

Not sure about this one. See, Cleveland trains go to Bowen Hills (and often on to Doomben). These are "trains from the north" (although not many).

I think the lines from the north would be more or less the same before and after.
Cleveland trains would just not be terminating at Bowen Hills.

A train which has originated from Cleveland and passed through the Bulimba tunnel and off-loaded CBD passengers now picks up passengers bound for:
* Roma St
* South Bank
* South Brisbane
* Park Road
* Buranda
* Coorparoo,
* Norman Pk
* Morningside
* Cannon Hill Interchange
* Carina North
* Carindale Interchange

And if we throw in a high frequency feeder bus network, we can also extend the reach of rail to now carry passengers which would have used the Eastern Busway, BUZ 200, rockets etc as well. ("Artist impression" only- this is for illustration purposes, actual routes should be determined by TransLink).

[somebody]

Would a proper terminating station (similar to southern cross) alleviate some of these problems with an unbalanced north or south??

Yes, and that would mean that the rail could serve QUT KG, which is something of a plus IMO.

The major problem with that though is that it does nothing to increase CBD capacity for trains from the north.  OTOH, numbers in peak are: 9tph Cab, 2tph NBR, 3tph SHC, 2tph DBN, 7tph FYG, 4tph Airport.  The sum of that is 27tph.  If you take it as a given that CRR phase one will go through, it seems hard to argue that you need to increase capacity from the north as much as you do south/west.