Richlands to Springfield Central - Stage 2

[Gazza]

I would have thought those in Redbank Plains would continue to use the Ipswich line...It doesn't involve backtracking, and you get the expresses, which would amount to a faster journey right?

It is those coming from further out that need the park and ride, eg. Greenbank ( it is close by Springfield Central), Redbank Plains and further afield.

And how do we intend to make sure its only those people using the car parks, and not someone 1km down the road who can use the bus/walk?

With respect to off peak/evening parking availablity versus span of bus operation...Across SEQ I don't think there is a single P&R you cant easily get into in the evening...I think the only time I've seen a P&R full in the evening is when riverfire was on and Garden City busway P&R was full.

Its going to be half hourly frequency at opening. The key thing for me is the 530 going half hourly all day.

[somebody]

Greenbank is closer to the Greenbank RSL PnR which is served by the 142 and 546 services.  It only makes sense to park at Springfield if you are going to a non-CBD location.  There's also the Park Ridge PnR.

[ozbob]

I would have thought those in Redbank Plains would continue to use the Ipswich line...It doesn't involve backtracking, and you get the expresses, which would amount to a faster journey right?

You would reasonably expect that but it is actually easier for many to go to Springfield Central than onto the Ipswich line.  The run through to Goodna/Redbank is a real traffic nightmare at times.  Local stuff in newspapers, pollies and the like has always had a strong focus for the Springfield line being the option from Redbank Plains.  In fact I can recall an article even referring to ' Redbank Plains ' railway station.  In any case, they won't be able to park there (Springfield stations - what limited parking there is will go by 7am by locals, bus or no bus) so they will probably try once or twice and then go back to what they are doing.  The 526 bus could be ramped up a bit and promoted as an option.

e.g.

http://division2news.blogspot.com.au/2012_07_01_archive.html

New Springfield Central railway station to have just 100 carparks

SPRINGFIELD Central car park won't be extended beyond the existing 100 spaces originally planned for commuters at the new train station.

Bundamba MP Jo-Ann Miller and Ipswich City Councillor David Morrison have expressed disappointment commuters will be left to scrape for car parks when the station opens late next year.

Mrs Miller asked Transport Minister Scott Emerson during State Parliament question time if the government would deliver the extra car parks.

The station is expected to attract commuters from Redbank Plans, Bellbird Park, Augustine Heights and Brookwater, but Mr Emerson said the number of car parks at the futuristic station would not be raised.

"The project is now under construction and there are no plans to increase the number of car parking spaces which were approved for this station under the previous government," he told parliament.

Mrs Miller said it was unreasonable to ask young mums to drag their prams and children onto feeder buses just to catch the train.

"It does not take into account the fact that people in the newer suburbs have young families.

This planning does not allow them to continue with their work at all," she said.

"I believe in the short term there needs to he several hundred car parks there.

There's land around the stations and as the suburbs grow to the stage where the buses are high frequency the car parks could be reduced." Cr Morrison said the 100 car parks fell well short of the commuters' needs.

"To have 100 car parks is very bad planning," he said.

"They will justify it by saying it's a CBD station. In the big picture it will be a CBD station but until that day they should make more car parks." Richlands train station has 650 car parks for rail commuters, which often reaches capacity during the morning peak times.

Cr Morrison hopes Mr Emerson will reconsider the government's position.

www.QT.com.au

Ipswich Planning spokesman Paul Tully described the failure to provide more than 100 parking spaces at the new Springfield Central Railway Station as "extreme short sightedness".

"Even Mr Magoo could see the need for at least 500 spaces.

Cr Tully said the local bus service feeding into Springfield Central was unreliable and inadequate.

"The state government should look at the Perth to Joondalup railway line which is a world class example of a good rail network with large numbers of commuter carparks at each rail station.

"The people of Springfield, Augustine Heights, Brookwater, Bellbird Park and Redbank Plains are being punished for voting Labor at the last state election," Cr Tully said.

23.7.12

[ozbob]

Greenbank is closer to the Greenbank RSL PnR which is served by the 142 and 546 services.  It only makes sense to park at Springfield if you are going to a non-CBD location.  There's also the Park Ridge PnR.

Greenbank proper, but there are many for which Springfield is a better option ... and some may prefer rail anyway.

[ozbob]

I would have thought those in Redbank Plains would continue to use the Ipswich line...It doesn't involve backtracking, and you get the expresses, which would amount to a faster journey right?

It is those coming from further out that need the park and ride, eg. Greenbank ( it is close by Springfield Central), Redbank Plains and further afield.

And how do we intend to make sure its only those people using the car parks, and not someone 1km down the road who can use the bus/walk?

With respect to off peak/evening parking availablity versus span of bus operation...Across SEQ I don't think there is a single P&R you cant easily get into in the evening...I think the only time I've seen a P&R full in the evening is when riverfire was on and Garden City busway P&R was full.

Its going to be half hourly frequency at opening. The key thing for me is the 530 going half hourly all day.

Of course most park and rides have free spaces in the evening (football nights Goodna can be very full), it is the shift workers trying to get parks at say later in the morning early afternoon that cannot park at all.  They might be able to catch a bus to get there, but they can't get home.

As far as restricting park and rides you cannot - other than charging eg. Mandurah 550 free 500 odd pay and display, that is why there should be a reasonable amount with good local options.

What will turn away people on the buses around Springfield will be the poor bus frequency with the poor train frequency.  Same problem with the my local bus the 524, nightmare to make connections ... this is a great motivator to drive at least for the bus leg ... it is often more reliable to walk when I can, but many cannot walk the distances involved.

[ozbob]

There is another issue that will loom one day.  As the population grows (it will pass the population of Darwin) and the population ages, disabled car parks will take up the 100 car spaces and probably a lot more potentially ...  in fact it does beg the question how many of the 100 car parks at Springfield Central will actually be available for general use.? Probably 10 will be for disabled etc.  a few for staff?  ... looking even bleaker ...

[Gazza]

I think once you got to that point the place would be big enough for paratransit, or simply paying for a car park expansion.

[somebody]

For the Redbank Plains people, shouldn't we be focussing on fixing up the feeder buses rather than providing parking in a sub optimal location?

[#Metro]

I think the existing bus routes are logical enough, with some modification/joining, namely diverting them via Springfield station rather than staying on Springfield Parkway...This does make things worse for people traveling through to orion though. On the flip side have changed routings so buses serve orion/springfield central first, and the uni and health city 2nd via the loop around Sinnathamby Blvd. Seems more logical do it that way.

The population are so low that I doubt these buses would be very convenient. Many would only run during peak hour - lacking span. You'd still need p + r.

[petey3801]

Last time the sign coming into Springfield Lakes was updated (well, I haven't been through for almost a month due to being out of the country, so it may have been updated since), the population for Springfield Lakes was over 13,000. That doesn't include Springfield or Springfield Central, let alone Camira, Greenbank, Augustine Heights, Redbank Plains (the western side of it in particular), Ripley etc.etc.etc.

Personally, I will be walking to Springfield station as it is within a 10-15min walk of my house, so the lack of P&R doesn't effect me personally, but I can still see a lot more is needed than what is going to be provided. A proper feeder bus network as well as adequate P&R are the perfect mix for the area at the moment. Once things become more dense in the area, more/better feeder buses would be able to handle a much bigger chunk of the pie, however car parks will still be needed for the areas outside feeder bus range (Greenbank, Ripley etc.etc.).

I will see if I can do up a couple possible feeder bus routes when I get a chance.

[petey3801]

Here's a link to a rough diagram of some possible feeder routes in the Springfield area for when the railway opens: https://maps.google.com.au/maps/ms?msid=202080209001696593789.0004cf297bff824c89b56&msa=0&ll=-27.647039,152.920418&spn=0.097015,0.196381

Feel free to offer opinions on different ways they should go etc or other routes that would be good.

[ozbob]

Yes, and the fact that Springfield will have 200 car parks and Springfield Central only a 100 parks also further highlights how botched they have it ...

Some will drive to Springfield passing Springfield Central in the vain hope .. lol

Your viewpoint is similar to the many people I have spoken too petey around the area - residents, workers and pollies.  They understand the nature of the place and the fact that the park and ride plans are just not adequate.  It really needs a re-think. 

A proper feeder bus network as well as adequate P&R are the perfect mix for the area at the moment.

Exactly ...  a comment that makes sense ... a temporary facility at Springfield Central is a no brainer ...

They have started on Ripley developments as well.  So by the time the line opens there will be even more pressure from there as well. There is talk of BRT from Ripley into Ipswich (from Ipswich CC surprise) as a precursor to the heavy rail, but would be better into Springfield Central as well.  But this is many years away yet.

[ozbob]

I think the existing bus routes are logical enough, with some modification/joining, namely diverting them via Springfield station rather than staying on Springfield Parkway...This does make things worse for people traveling through to orion though. On the flip side have changed routings so buses serve orion/springfield central first, and the uni and health city 2nd via the loop around Sinnathamby Blvd. Seems more logical do it that way.

The population are so low that I doubt these buses would be very convenient. Many would only run during peak hour - lacking span. You'd still need p + r.

Feeder bus fantasy land in fact.  Getting them onto the train will take a bit of effort for a population that is already car-dependent.  Cold turkey simply will not work particularly with the likely frequency and coverage - bus and rail.  There needs to be a transition, and support for the many who will need to drive (expanding the permanent parking and further augmenting by a temporary park at Springfield Central will assist them in making that transition, and in time they will move to feeder bus as it develops).  They are just going to say, farce as it is for now, and continue to drive to where ever be it Richlands, Gailes or the CBD ..

The Government is also encouraging them to continue to drive through by simply widening the Centenary Highway and dropping the bicycle path, whilst restricting the parking.  Real mixed messages ...

The other factor is that greater Springfield is only about 14% along the planned developmental path.  Many years yet before it is going to have the densities and what not to support proper feeder networks.

[ozbob]

LOL - mindless rhetoric from George St ...

-----------------------------------------

From the Queensland Times 24th November 2012 page 8

Cycle users take on the Minister

[#Metro]

Parking needs to be increased and charged for so that people who have a bus stop outside their house DO use it rather than drive. For everyone else there's the car park at the station. Short of plotting where every car is domiciled on a map and having security at the car park checking off where everyone lives and barring access to those who have alternatives, a price does this 'sorting' automatically.

Let's see if the LNP's efficiency and cost saving rhetoric apply here, LOL.

Empirical evidence ---> http://chartingtransport.com/2012/11/04/spatial-changes-in-brisban-journey-to-work-2006-2011-2/

Note that a significant share of people in Springfield used trains. They will be getting a train closer to home when the rail line extension from Richlands to Springfield opens in 2014. It appears that only a few of them got to the train by feeder bus, as the next map shows.

You can also see in this map that Northwest, Centenary and Wynnum transport black holes which appear as red.

[ozbob]

Yes, they can manage the mix well elsewhere.   Beyond their tiny minds in SEQ ...

[ozbob]

Mandurah, 14 feeder bus routes ..

533 pay n' display parks  http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/UsingTransperth/CarParking.aspx

Pay 'n' Display car parks

Pay 'n' Display car parks are also fenced, but are patrolled by car park attendants between 7.00am and 9.00pm Monday to Friday excluding public holidays. A flat fee of $2.00 per day, or part thereof, applies.

550 odd free car parks

10 minute peak, 15 minute off peak frequency

Little wonder more people on Transperth rail than SEQ Queensland Rail, is it not?

They are actively trying to discourage people to use public transport in SEQ it seems at times ...

Springfield Central

100 car free car parks.

Feeder buses?  Possibly 3 or 4 routes if you are real lucky

Frequency?

15 minute peak, 30 minute off peak ..

[Stillwater]

Treasury thinking would appear to apply.  That thinking says cyclists don't pay a registration fee, thus contributing to government revenue, therefore why build bicycle paths?  It also sees every additional passenger attracted to the PT network as a drain on the public purse, due to the fare subsidy the government pays.  Will they address the fare structure?  Will they see the wider picture?

[ozbob]

Treasury thinking would appear to apply.  That thinking says cyclists don't pay a registration fee, thus contributing to government revenue, therefore why build bicycle paths?  It also sees every additional passenger attracted to the PT network as a drain on the public purse, due to the fare subsidy the government pays.  Will they address the fare structure?  Will they see the wider picture?

Costs more to put them on the roads .... 

They are unable to see the wider picture clearly.  Time they all resigned and brought in some folk who actually understand what is going on ..

[Gazza]

I think the existing bus routes are logical enough, with some modification/joining, namely diverting them via Springfield station rather than staying on Springfield Parkway...This does make things worse for people traveling through to orion though. On the flip side have changed routings so buses serve orion/springfield central first, and the uni and health city 2nd via the loop around Sinnathamby Blvd. Seems more logical do it that way.

The population are so low that I doubt these buses would be very convenient. Many would only run during peak hour - lacking span. You'd still need p + r.

That's just an excuse. I have yet to see an answer on why a half hourly 530 can't be done.

[#Metro]

It would still be half hour though before the service turned up, which is still bad when you can jump in your car and be in the station in a few minutes.

[ozbob]

And with the poor train frequency, the connections become a bit problematical for many.  The frequencies out this way for 524/5/6 s are 30 minutes at peak, and one hour out of peak.  I doubt if Springfield feeders would be any different, if they actually run off peak ...  people who use these buses just have to grin and bear it.  The Springfield set won't, they will just hop into car-car and vroom away ..

[#Metro]

With 100 car parks for tens of thousands of residents there has to be some way of sorting the car park spaces to those who don't have alternatives. I think we should be pushing for car parking charges to be levied.

[Jonno]

My frustration is not at you guys for proposing a Park n Ride. It is at our Govts who continue to pat themselves on the back for planning failure. They believe that they have it right with 85% of trips by motor vehicle, infrequent public transport, park n rides instead of cross-town routes, un-walkable neighbourhoods and bike paths sporadically painted on the road.  It is economical, social and environmental worst practice.  It might be reality but it a very poor reality compared to the global leaders!

Business as usual is bankrupting the country and creating a god almighty mess.

What's worse is that there is ample evidence that the alternatives deliver better outcomes for our economy, communities and the environment.  I just want a better return from my taxes and rates.

[ozbob]

With 100 car parks for tens of thousands of residents there has to be some way of sorting the car park spaces to those who don't have alternatives. I think we should be pushing for car parking charges to be levied.

I like the Transperth model. Go card could be used as for the Smartrider card.  Paid car parking in SEQ will be difficult politically, but not impossible.  It would need to be where there are real options other than park and ride per se.  I would like to see a mix initially like Mandurah.  That would probably fly.  But with only 100 car parks, of which around 10 will be assigned for various categories, bit hard to raffle them from there.  Those who catch the first train in the morning might get a park, the rest will mainly continue to drive.

Oxley could be a good pilot for paid parking     The new car park was obviously done with a view to putting in some sort of barrier system ...

Most of the people who park at Oxley rail are not from Oxley at all ....

[ozbob]

My frustration is not at you guys for proposing a Park n Ride. It is at our Govts who continue to pat themselves on the back for planning failure. They believe that they have it right with 85% of trips by motor vehicle, infrequent public transport, park n rides instead of cross-town routes, un-walkable neighbourhoods and bike paths sporadically painted on the road.  It is economical, social and environmental worst practice.  It might be reality but it a very poor reality compared to the global leaders!

Business as usual is bankrupting the country and creating a god almighty mess.

What's worse is that there is ample evidence that the alternatives deliver better for our economy, communities and the environment.  I just want a better return from my taxes and rates.

We hear you Jonno.  It is diabolical alright ...

[ozbob]

With 100 car parks for tens of thousands of residents there has to be some way of sorting the car park spaces to those who don't have alternatives. I think we should be pushing for car parking charges to be levied.

I like the Transperth model. Go card could be used as for the Smartrider card.  Paid car parking in SEQ will be difficult politically, but not impossible.  It would need to be where there are real options other than park and ride per se.  I would like to see a mix initially like Mandurah.  That would probably fly.  But with only 100 car parks, of which around 10 will be assigned for various categories, bit hard to raffle them from there.  Those who catch the first train in the morning might get a park, the rest will mainly continue to drive.

Oxley could be a good pilot for paid parking     The new car park was obviously done with a view to putting in some sort of barrier system ...

Most of the people who park at Oxley rail are not from Oxley at all ....

Further I suppose it is a bit hard to notionally charge for verge parking be it at Dakabin, Gailes or  wherever, but where they have made new park and rides eg. Richlands,  Springfield stations, Gold Coast etc. it would be reasonable to replicate the Perth model.  If they value add it a little like they have done it Perth could work ...

[somebody]

Paid car parking in SEQ will be difficult politically, but not impossible. 

I would think that with the majority this government has achieved, they can burn some short term political capital on paid parking.   In a few years, the availability of parking will make it possible to have lower fares which one would have thought would get more political points.

[#Metro]

Further I suppose it is a bit hard to notionally charge for verge parking be it at Dakabin, Gailes or  wherever, but where they have made new park and rides eg. Richlands,  Springfield stations, Gold Coast etc. it would be reasonable to replicate the Perth model.  If they value add it a little like they have done it Perth could work ...

Of course its hard. It's Queensland. What's that joke about being 20 years backwards? LOL.
Not all car parking needs to be charged for -where there is excess space (i.e. Gold Coast) there is little point
charging.

To get an idea of the funding, assume an average of 30 car parks for a typical station, 85 stations x $2 per day (max charge) x 52 weeks x 5 days per week = $1.3 million per year. You could also make it so that car parking at QR stations would be free if you pop out within three hours (i.e. short trips just picking someone off or whatever).

Some free parks should always remain - these can be "early bird" parking spaces.

The on road spaces should be metered where they cause problems - again maybe cheaper at $1 per day - BCC can do this - and furthermore lines can be drawn on the road so that people don't park in driveways etc.

Spend the money generated on improving cycling facilites, walking, new bus services etc.

[somebody]

The joke was: Welcome to Qld.  Set your watch back an hour and your mentality back 20 years.
Or some such.

Certainly the conversations about toll roads are the same conversations had in Sydney 20 years ago.  Perhaps more.

[#Metro]

$1.3 million dollars per year would pay for an aggressive rollout of high-end bicycle racks and cages, you could widen and have a new wider paths as well with that money.

[ozbob]

Vs.



Obviously the reason why there is so much verge parking is basically because feeder bus is ratsh%t and what is provided as park and ride is just swamped.

Charging for parking will not work for verge parking as it is. Put meters there and they just move further along ... and cost of meters etc. would be more than revenue.  Formed park and rides as illustrated could be charged for on the basis of security etc. and cost of establishing.

[ozbob]

The way to go forward with this would be for Government and TransLink to agree to a pilot.

Go card would be the ideal payment system.

Select the pilot park and rides.   

Oxley?  Toowong? (yes, it has some park and ride believe it or not, 61 spaces).  Section of Ferny Grove?

Put on protective suits, and then let it rip ..

[#Metro]

I wouldn't charge for verge parking (like in the photo) and other low quality/random parking etc. It's like pricing a rotten apple

[Jonno]

If they can do a Pay for Parking pilot Why can they not do a Frequency/Feeder Pilot?

PS don't expect Go Card to be able to be expanded that way. More likely to be PayWay!

[Golliwog]

The way to go forward with this would be for Government and TransLink to agree to a pilot.

Go card would be the ideal payment system.

Select the pilot park and rides.   

Oxley?  Toowong? (yes, it has some park and ride believe it or not, 61 spaces).  Section of Ferny Grove?

Put on protective suits, and then let it rip ..

I could live with FG being the trial, but as has been said previously, you'd need to simultaneously upgrade the feeders to give people an alternative. I'd also put aside some free parking that only becomes available after 9am (The strip down Conavalla St?) for those from further afield who won't have an off-peak feeder service.

[ozbob]

FG would be good because it has the size, and the opportunity to sort the feeder buses as part of it.

I think Toowong is a no-brainer, some places would need to be made available for disabled access but the rest should be paid for there, surely. 

Oxley would be technically easy to do in the sense it has one entry and exit point that could be metered easily, and has reasonably good options to and from the station by bus and could be boosted a little easily as well.

Goodna has some parking in Woogaroo St (near the station) that is 15 minutes only to 9am weekdays .. this is technically not part of the railway station park and ride though, it is adjacent to the park.

I am not aware of a true park and ride that has restricted parking places that are only able to used after 9am, but it is a good idea though. It allows late starters a chance of a park ..

[Gazza]

It would still be half hour though before the service turned up, which is still bad when you can jump in your car and be in the station in a few minutes.

Waiting is waiting though...yiud have to wait half an hour to jump in the car.

[somebody]

I think Toowong is a no-brainer, some places would need to be made available for disabled access but the rest should be paid for there, surely. 

This point I strongly agree with.

[ozbob]

Richlands could be another suitable for some limited park and pay ..

The lower level park and pay, upper level free ...

Transperth has a flat $2 for their park and display parking fee, this seems reasonable ..