Richlands to Springfield Central - Stage 2

[Gazza]

There's several pdfs of powepoints on the net about Mandurah....There's a particular one I want to find but cant yet, but this one in the meantime says 38% of Transperth Trains users overall P+R.

http://www.patrec.org/forum/2009/presentations/Presentation10_Beyer,%20Steve.pdf

Also: pg 7

Most of the transfers are to/from bus
– Mandurah Line: 49% of arrivals/ 58% of departures
– Joondalup Line: 37% bus/ 28% for parking

[Derwan]

I'm in Perth at the moment. We could learn a lot from them!!!

[Jonno]

Here is great opportunity to implement cross-town/feeder services (stick to major roads) at proper frequencies, cycle paths, etc.  Remember Springfield is its own employment/commercial centre.  Need to stop looking at this as only a dormitory suburb. 

We have policy failure upon policy failure creating a complete mess.  Time to look at leading practice and lessons learnt from around the world. 

Perth is following San Francisco's path and they are now lamenting their park n rides.  Build it correctly in the first place and avoid the expensive retro fits.

We need to target mode splits like Vancouver not in the low teens

PS All busway and train station should be a TOD of varying urban densities.

[ozbob]

I hear you Jonno but is going to be many years before Springfield is not a dormitory suburb.  It is pointless restricting the parking on opening as it just means they will continue to drive ever further.  The plan for a temporary car park at Springfield Central makes a lot of sense.  Eventually it can be wound up as feeder bus, bicycle paths etc. local employment and so forth become established, and rail is pushed further on.

The weak link is TransLink and TMR,  little confidence left in them I am afraid.

[somebody]

People that think there should be more parking at stations >>> people that are willing to pay for parking at stations

EDIT: Wrong way around!

[huddo45]

Kind of bizarre outcome this, people driving past Springfield Central, Springfield stations because no parking and heading to Richlands, Darra, Gailes and Wacol, compounding the already significant congestion and parking issues generally. Only real hope will be verge parking at Gailes and Wacol.  We might eventually see cars lining the road verge from Goodna to Wacol ....  wankers ...

A possible solution might be to set up a car park on vacant land some distance from the Springfield stations and running a free(?) shuttle bus, which could also pick up at other places in the area, to meet the trains.

[Jonno]

Kind of bizarre outcome this, people driving past Springfield Central, Springfield stations because no parking and heading to Richlands, Darra, Gailes and Wacol, compounding the already significant congestion and parking issues generally. Only real hope will be verge parking at Gailes and Wacol.  We might eventually see cars lining the road verge from Goodna to Wacol ....  wankers ...

A possible solution might be to set up a car park on vacant land some distance from the Springfield stations and running a free(?) shuttle bus, which could also pick up at other places in the area, to meet the trains.

....or complete the rail line to Ipswich so it creatres a Ipswich direct communte.  Run education program on the benefits of walking, cycling and public transport plus the cost of driving.  Run services frequently.  Amazing what it gets people to do. 

[ozbob]

Won't happen for 20 years plus Jonno that is rail past Springfield.   No, just more public transport failure, road congestion looms.  What a complete botch ..  past form with feeder bus setups inspires no confidence that Springfield will be any different.

As far as getting pax to pay for park n' ride, no one in Government has the political balls for that, both sides of the fence.  Although I am sure there might be a few in TransLink that like the idea ..

Just went past Gailes before, nice collection of horseless carriages there today ...

[somebody]

As far as getting pax to pay for park n' ride, no one in Government in Queensland has the political balls for that, both sides of the fence.  Although I am sure there might be a few in TransLink that like the idea ..

Just went past Gailes before, nice collection of horseless carriages there today ...

Fixed it for you.  WA certainly charge for parking in some cases, and parking is nearly certain to be paid on the NWRL in NSW.

[ozbob]

Touche, in Queensland of course.  Few other places as well, but Queensland is different of course ... lol

[mufreight]

Won't happen for 20 years plus Jonno that is rail past Springfield.   No, just more public transport failure, road congestion looms.  What a complete botch ..  past form with feeder bus setups inspires no confidence that Springfield will be any different.

As far as getting pax to pay for park n' ride, no one in Government has the political balls for that, both sides of the fence.  Although I am sure there might be a few in TransLink that like the idea ..

Just went past Gailes before, nice collection of horseless carriages there today ...

Also came through Gailes this morning Ozbob and out of curiousity stopped and counted the cars parked there, all 183 of them parked along the rain corridor fence and on the golf club side of Wilruna Street, Wacol I did not count but there were at an estimate at least a further 140 parked outside the rail corridor fence on the Wilruna Street side of the station with the car park full on the Wilruna Street side of the station and a couple of empty spaces in the car park on the Akenside Street side of the station.

[ozbob]

Kind of crazy that Gailes and Wacol will end up being the buffer for Springfield Central and Springfield ....

[mufreight]

Kind of crazy that Gailes and Wacol will end up being the buffer for Springfield Central and Springfield ....

In railway terms a buffer can only compress so far, this usage of Gailes, Wacol and Darra as a buffer for the car parking for commuters who are showing a preference for doing as much as possible of their comnute by rail has reached the practical limit of that compression as these locations have already effectively reached their capacity to cope with further parking which has increased beyond the levels of demand that existed prior to the opening of Richlands with its 650 car parking spaces.
At the present time there would be in excess of a further 100 cars parked in unofficial parking on vacant private land adjacent to the Richlands Station in the parking at the Progress Corner shopping strip and in the Football club parking .
So much for the token provision for parking at Springfield and Springfield Central.

[Jonno]

The network of buses and rail is completely failing the residents outside inner city suburbs.

[#Metro]

I don't understand why it is so controversial. Car park charges in Perth are standard fare for the new, fast lines.

[#Metro]

A user charge should be levied on all Park and Ride users at a
uniform rate for all stations, reflecting the derived private benefit

http://www.patrec.org/forum/2009/presentations/Presentation10_Beyer,%20Steve.pdf

I agree. It's someone's PRIVATE car on PUBLIC land. And the system has to spend HUGE amounts of
money just so someone can benefit for that. Same rationale for charging fares on trains actually...

And the funny thing is that despite all the parking provided at TransPerth stations, I dare suggest that Perth is actually leading in terms of TOD by a very wide margin against Sydney, Melbourne and closest comparison - BRISBANE. Speed and frequency have a lot to do with that also.

If Perth can build huge car parks and still get decent development around stations, that might suggest that TOD (or development at least) around stations aren't exclusive.

The TOD experience in Perth
• There are 69 major nodes on Perth's rail network
• Actual development is evident at 10 nodes (City * 4,
Subiaco, Maylands, Murdoch, Burswood, Joondalup
and Brighton)
plus Wellard?
• Structure planning and planned development is
occurring at 10 nodes (Midland, Ashfield, Stirling,
Leederville, South Perth, Canning Bridge, Cockburn,
Rockingham, Mandurah, Claremont)

[Jonno]

http://www.reinventingparking.org/2010/12/park-and-ride-comparison-vancouver.html?m=1

Park-and-Ride Comparison: Vancouver, Melbourne and Perth
There is a new in-depth post on park-and-ride at the Australian public transport blog, Transport Textbook.  Author "Loose Shunter" (ahem) asks "What role for Park and Ride in an integrated public transport system?"

He or she takes a detailed look at park-and-ride policy in Melbourne and Perth in Australia and Vancouver in Canada, highlighting contrasts in their approach.

To my mind, Vancouver does best. It doesn't abandon park-and-ride altogether but does not let it undermine transit-oriented development opportunities, feeder bus services and the environment for walking and cycling to stations. Melbourne's approach is at the opposite end of the park-and-ride spectrum.

The essay discusses many of the arguments for and against providing car parking at stations. The post also has a good bibliography for anyone who wants to dig further.

Reinventing Parking readers may remember that I have urged a skeptical approach to park-and-ride in dense, inner-urban transit station areas. This applies to many stations of most of Asia's growing mass transit systems. So I was interested to see Transport Textbook's take on park-and-ride in much lower-density metropolitan areas with more automobile-oriented suburban landscapes than in Asia.

Below are some highlights from the Transport Textbook post. The whole thing is worth a look.

Some criticisms of park-and-ride:
Hamer (2010:52) questions the effectiveness of Park and Ride as a generator of mode shift to public transport, with some studies cited claiming that Park and Ride 'cannibalises' existing patronage from feeder buses, walking and active transport and attracts people to driving to the station rather than using more sustainable modes. Mees (2010:174) offers the Doncaster bus Park and Ride in Melbourne as an example, where a survey found the facility's opening in 2004 had drawn almost all its users from those who formerly used public transport for their entire journey.

Mees (2010:174-5) questions the lessening of environmental effects from the shorter car trips generated by Park and Ride journeys, claiming cold engine starts and short journeys may produce as much pollution as longer, door-to-door car journeys. He also critiques Park and Ride as not providing a real alternative to car use, serving only peak-period, peak-direction CBD trips on radial rail and bus networks. Thus, Park and Ride does not serve off-peak or non-CBD trips effectively. He argues that the size of a city's Park and Ride stock is inversely related to that city's ability to grow public transport patronage (Mees 2010:94).

Perth's freeway-median rail lines apparently suit park-and-ride:
The role of Park and Ride in the Perth rail system is to extend the network's catchment beyond walking distance from the station. This is particularly important on the newer Mandurah and Joondalup lines, where most stations are located in the freeway median with very limited walk-up catchments.



Murdoch Park n Ride south of Perth on the Mandurah rail line which runs here in the Freeway median.

But on Perth's other rail lines there is some conflict between the public transport agency, TransPerth, which wants to keep park-and-ride, and other agencies that want more Transit-Oriented Development (TOD).

Some of Perth's park-and-ride spaces are priced, using pay-and-display at A$2 per day.

Park and Ride is an important policy in Melbourne

Park and Ride has been an important element of public transport planning in Melbourne for over 40 years. The Victorian Government has invested heavily in Park and Ride facilities across the metropolitan rail network since the 1970s.

Park-and-ride in Melbourne has been criticised by Paul Mees among others, as being a wasteful subsidy for car users, as reflecting the failure to integrate rail with feeder modes, and for having a large opportunity-cost.

The Melbourne authorities seem highly committed to the policy and determined not to price the spaces.

The Victorian Government and rail operators have sent strong signals over many years that Park and Ride is a free resource to rail users. In fact, the most recent franchise agreement for the metropolitan rail network ensured that the operator would not price the use of Park and Ride facilities (Department of Transport 2009:106).

Vancouver has fewer park-and-ride slots than Melbourne or Perth and they are located at only a few stations, which are mainly near the ends of the Skytrain lines and the West Coast Express (WCE) commuter rail line. Vancouver prevents park-and-ride from undermining transit-oriented development opportunities through its ...

... long-term policy to restrict supply of Park and Ride to the outer ends of the network to maximise public transport use and promote Transit-Oriented Development (TOD) opportunities around inner- and middle-suburban stations.

Much of the parking at mass transit stations in Vancouver is priced (at C$3 per day or C$60 per month).

In Vancouver, park-and-ride is therefore a complement to the other modes of accessing stations and does not dominate or undermine them. Park-and-ride is not a feature of most of its stations.

[Gazza]

I think its good at least in Perth they use waste land in the freeway interchange, since you wouldn't want to live/work on such a pocket of land anyway.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I don't understand why it is so controversial. Car park charges in Perth are standard fare for the new, fast lines.

Obviously you haven't lived in the burbs or futher out from the city to find out why it is as such in SEQ.

[#Metro]

And Obviously you'd be TOTALLY wrong on that assumption. 

[#Metro]

I think its good at least in Perth they use waste land in the freeway interchange, since you wouldn't want to live/work on such a pocket of land anyway.

+1

[HappyTrainGuy]

And Obviously you'd be TOTALLY wrong on that assumption. 

Where there wasn't a busway next door 

[#Metro]

Where there wasn't a busway next door

Hur hur! There was a time where this was the case as well. NEXT!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Did you own a car at that the time? or find out that buses didn't run as the paint work could get damaged by the moon light with people lurking outside the unlit surrounds of the station while living 2-3km+ away?

In all fairness as I've said it before. I don't have a problem with park and rides being charged to use but when there are sub standard or non existant PT networks surrounding these areas they shouldn't be charged for. That's where Chermsides interchange was let down. It has frequent services but the areas surrounding the interchange had no or very limited services to access the interchange to start with so everyone drove and parked at Westfield. Since Westfield went to paid parking the problem still exists. They simply migrated to the Aspley Hypermarket which now has paid secuirty patrolling the place moving people away in the mornings; Zillmere copped some extras as too did the streets surrounding Geebung; The roundabout on Ellison road/the childrens playground has people parking there and walking to the 330 stops; Sunshine is pretty much in the middle of a industrial complex/area is packed out due to the lack of any bus routes and the dodgy 325 in peak hour - Geebung lvl crossing/Hamilton Road congestion created by Gympie Road/Hamilton Road intersection. Petrie and Dakabin are in the same position due to North Lakes having a poor PT feeder network and the lack of a heavy rail line to move the masses. Strathpine-Lawnton also in that same boat with people driving from Warner, Cashmere, Eatons Hill, Strathpine, Bray Park and Lawnton due to the shotty PT. Bald Hills... no local PT feeder services and takes cars from the North that want a cheaper fare and quicker transit time to the city as its right next to the highway. Carseldine has improved recently with the 340 buz but the 335 could do with some earlier services outbound and a 340 extension. Geebung fills up pretty quickly due to lack of PT options. Running the 336/337 during peak hour would help out immensly with a large area now having a feeder bus service to multiple interchanges. Narangba has a good PT service but leaves much to be desired considering the majority of people living in Narangba live 1km+ away from the station with the last 663 bus at 7pm IIRC. Burpengary is a bit better but its local 664 feeder service cuts out roughly the same time. Caboolture has people from Bribie Island, futher north, all the way out west... pretty much from every direction heading there due to the poor feeder network. Leaving the city after 6pm and finding out that most buses have headed back to the depot once you get off the train is a joke. The same can be said for pretty much the entire seq PT network. As Ozbob and Mufreight have pointed out its already as mess from Darra-Gailes. Richlands pretty much suffered from day one.

Just because it works for one state/country doesn't mean its going to work in another. There are a whole bunch of different factors at play.

[ozbob]

Exactly HTG.  Springfield will be an anti-climax, parking issues at Goodna, Wacol, Gailes, Darra, and Riclands will just worsen while near empty trains run between Richlands and Springfield Central.    TODs do not reduce the need for the further flung to get to stations.  I think people need to have good look at Springfield and area maps and just note where people actually are. TransLink couldn't organise a bus run to the Golden Arches with any reliability, let alone decent and user friendly feeders  with decent frequency and hours of operation. So what is left?

More congestion and chaos ...

People who have lived in the area for years understand the issues.  TOD utopia at Springfield is many, many years away.  There are very limited walk up catchments.  In the meantime, thank goodness for Gailes!  LOL

View Larger Map

[ozbob]

Mandurah rail has 14 feeder bus routes alone into that station ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandurah_railway_station ), also has 533 pay and display car parks, 551 free car parks  ( http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TimetablesMaps/Maps/StationMaps.aspx ) .  Adequate and good feeder bus, the alternative is pay for your park - can use SmartRider flat $2 if not early.  Can you imagine this at Springfield Central?  LOL  Be lucky to have one or two mediocre peak hour only bus services ... to go with the 100 car parks ... 

We really are a backwater ....

[colinw]

Wow, I have never seen so many people argue in favour of policies which would essentially guarantee that this line is a complete flop from opening.  Are we part of the solution or part of the problem here?

Wake up to yourselves and stop pushing stupid ideologically driven positions that entirely fail to deal with the reality of the situation.

[Gazza]

Well I reckon gravel car parks on development sites at Springfield Central will do....I don't really support a multIideck at Springfield.....What should work at Springfield station is an active transport approach given the footbridge etc.

With respect to the line being a flop at opening....There is a balance to be had. by that I mean that there might 've some short term pain by not having 1000 spaces or whatever...but in the long term a pattern of development will occur that hasn't in SEQ before.

[colinw]

Argh, I think I took the cranky pills again this morning. 

Lets clarify that rant above ...

For now, I agree with OzBob's position that there should be adequate free parking provided at Springfield. That can be an interim measure, and doesn't need to be a multi-level concrete carpark, particularly as such usage is counter to the development plan for the area.

Until such time as there is a decent level of development around the station, and a usable feeder bus system (not holding breath!), the failure to provide adequate parking will suppress demand for the rail service.  And a rail service opening and running at very low demand is not a good look - imagine the "Ghost Train" headlines in the Courier-Fail, or the "no more rail' and "Labor's white elephant" political capital Newman could gain from it if the line doesn't perform well from opening.  Given that the adjacent motorway is now getting an upgrade at the same time as the rail is being built, it seems fairly clear that the combination of inadequate parking and a new 4 lane motorway might lead to a poor result for the rail service.

Regarding paid parking, I have no particular position either way and have certainly seen it work well in the UK. I don't think it is going to be attractive to charge for parking for a station with a "rotten apple" rail service that is amongst the world's most expensive for the distance covered. If you're going to charge for parking, the rail service and the car parking facility needs to be up to scratch.  Charging for parking just to suppress demand - when the parking available will barely fill one or two carriages anyway - is just setting yourself up for failure of the rail service.

Longer term I have no objection to paid parking if the rail service is up to scratch, and the local area is developed in a manner that encourages bus connection & walk up patronage.

But for as long as the station is just a lonely terminus in on the other side of the motorway from a Big W and a construction site I think the provision of only 150 carparks seems a bit silly.

I also still think that the failure to build Ellen Grove is extremely short sighted.

[ozbob]

For interest some happy snaps at Wacol and Gailes this morning .. consider today is Friday, university semesters over, and Friday tends to be the lightest parking day of the week ..

Wacol





Gailes









Photographs R Dow 23rd November 2012

Probably cram in another 1000 cars easily between the two stations along the verges ...

[ozbob]

@Colin  only 100 car parks at Springfield Central cobber ... lol  They build a new railway line so people can park in the mud at Gailes and Wacol. 

Not doing Ellen Grove is just par for the course in SEQ, they lack any real vision ...

Paid parking is fine where there is a real alternative, eg. Mandurah, but even they acknowledge that some free park and ride is also a component of overall transport policy.

[somebody]

Looking at the urban form around Springfield Central, I'd wonder if 100 spaces was enough anyway.

They over invested on parking for the Gold Coast line.

[Golliwog]

On the topic of Park n Ride VS feeders generally, I'm really hoping that when the Ferny Grove station upgrade is completed in the next month or so (that's my understanding anyway?) or at the very least, when the bus network review is completed, that they do something to drastically improve the feeder network to Ferny Grove to take advantage of the two bus interchanges they built:

367 - Hasn't changed since Upper Kedron was about half the size it is now
396/397/398 - Improved to meet more peak hour services, and can you really look at all of Ferny Hills/Arana Hills and say these only justify 2 x hourly routes during the day?
399 - Needs more than it's pitiful service.

I'd also argue that something should provide a connection to The Gap from Ferny Grove. Currently it's either travel via the city or catch the train one stop to Keperra and get the 362, or into Mitchelton and get the 599/598 to Ashgrove then go back out. Given the 150m long right turn lane from Samford Rd into Settlement Rd is more than full for most of peak (even with the long green time it gets) I'd say there is demand for something like this.

[ozbob]

Looking at the urban form around Springfield Central, I'd wonder if 100 spaces was enough anyway.

They over invested on parking for the Gold Coast line.

Yes, I reckon Cr Paul Tully has it right at around 500 permanent for Springfield Central (first five years should have temporary for at least another 500).  This in conjunction with a proper feeder bus network would work well.  People who travel/work at hours outside bus times do need to get around as well.  I think this is one factor why Mandurah works so well, they have all the options which in total maximise patronage, the ultimate carrot being the frequency and relatively quick trip to Perth ( and fares that work as well ..  )

[ozbob]

On the topic of Park n Ride VS feeders generally, I'm really hoping that when the Ferny Grove station upgrade is completed in the next month or so (that's my understanding anyway?) or at the very least, when the bus network review is completed, that they do something to drastically improve the feeder network to Ferny Grove to take advantage of the two bus interchanges they built:

367 - Hasn't changed since Upper Kedron was about half the size it is now
396/397/398 - Improved to meet more peak hour services, and can you really look at all of Ferny Hills/Arana Hills and say these only justify 2 x hourly routes during the day?
399 - Needs more than it's pitiful service.

I'd also argue that something should provide a connection to The Gap from Ferny Grove. Currently it's either travel via the city or catch the train one stop to Keperra and get the 362, or into Mitchelton and get the 599/598 to Ashgrove then go back out. Given the 150m long right turn lane from Samford Rd into Settlement Rd is more than full for most of peak (even with the long green time it gets) I'd say there is demand for something like this.

Good points Golli.  FG is a good example why I don't have much faith in TL wrt to feeder bus networks.  Even though 1000 car park spaces it needs much better feeder bus to really optimise the frequency gains of the rail.

[somebody]

I think this is one factor why Mandurah works so well, they have all the options which in total maximise patronage, the ultimate carrot being the frequency and relatively quick trip to Perth ( and fares that work as well ..  )

Wow, you really hate the Go Card's fare rules!

WA default fare: end of bus trip or end of train network at a cash fare rate.  I really love this one
WA frequent user: none weekly or longer.  Dayrider of $11 if you do that much travel outside of the AM peak, regardless of zones.
WA has no shared zones AIUI
WA has no off peak discount

The good:
WA allows a missed tag off to not become a default fare if you are transferring.
WA has a free fare zone in the CBD.

[Golliwog]

Good points Golli.  FG is a good example why I don't have much faith in TL wrt to feeder bus networks.  Even though 1000 car park spaces it needs much better feeder bus to really optimise the frequency gains of the rail.

I know what you mean, route 362 provides great coverage of Keperra, yet they don't run it properly in either peak to allow it to work as a feeder.

That said, I do wonder how much is poor planning by Translink, and how much is restricted funding/political meddling?

[techblitz]

hate to dissapoint you golli but translink simply dont care about route 367 at the moment period.

firstly ive let them know about the diversion down tramway st that has been in place for the last 6 or so months and asked them to update it on the website.
secondly ive also let them know that the printable and online journey planner versions of route 367 are different. EG: 77 problem.

Do you think they adressed these issues?...i will let you guess on that one....

[Golliwog]

hate to dissapoint you golli but translink simply dont care about route 367 at the moment period.

firstly ive let them know about the diversion down tramway st that has been in place for the last 6 or so months and asked them to update it on the website.
secondly ive also let them know that the printable and online journey planner versions of route 367 are different. EG: 77 problem.

Do you think they adressed these issues?...i will let you guess on that one....

They did have a notice about Upper Kedron Rd being closed a while ago. It was at the same time as Ruby Rd at Mitchelton was closed for resurfacing, and I noted that they both came down at about the same time when Ruby Rd finished.

[ozbob]

I think this is one factor why Mandurah works so well, they have all the options which in total maximise patronage, the ultimate carrot being the frequency and relatively quick trip to Perth ( and fares that work as well ..  )

Wow, you really hate the Go Card's fare rules!

WA default fare: end of bus trip or end of train network at a cash fare rate.  I really love this one
WA frequent user: none weekly or longer.  Dayrider of $11 if you do that much travel outside of the AM peak, regardless of zones.
WA has no shared zones AIUI
WA has no off peak discount

The good:
WA allows a missed tag off to not become a default fare if you are transferring.
WA has a free fare zone in the CBD.

We disgress, but a lot of pluses with fares out west.  Dayrider cap, familyrider, 25% discount for autoload (topup), free travel Seniors etc. 9am to 3.30pm weekdays free weekends/holidays --> http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares/SmartRider.aspx

Balanced, socially equitable, obviously working ...