Richlands to Springfield Central - Stage 2

[ozbob]

Map of Ellen Grove station site.  Note the residential developments ..



https://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.617535,152.941918&z=15&t=h&nmd=20120619

[somebody]

^ Some developments west of the station, but little on the east.  I hope there is to be some sort of pedestrian link for that row of houses so they won't have to walk all the way around.

[ozbob]

The remaining blocks are to be developed, wall to wall residential and some commercial to capture the station, one of the reasons left to last.  Yes there is a walkup/bicycle thoroughfare planned from Carole Park to the station.  There is a bike path there already on the Carole Park side.

But look at what is there already at Forest Lake .... no wonder the folks are keen on Ellen Grove station being built.

[Gazza]

Locals I talk to would love it from day one.

Who would say no though?

My counter example is this:
http://goo.gl/maps/xDQ2

The area around Mulga Drive in that pic is similar to Ellen Grove, big blocks, low density.
The area to the west is the equivalent of Carol Park.
You can see they have pencilled in future estates, since google maps has the streets.

But they never built a station with the original Mandurah Line did they....Not that it has affected the sucess they had with it seems though!

[ozbob]

Gazza, there already is considerable residential development in very close range to Ellen Grove.

Look at the map.  What is that at Forest Lake and Carole Park? The few areas near the station are going to be built up as well.

It makes no sense not to build the station now. Some of the preliminary works are being done now. 

[Gazza]

There is a bike path there already on the Carole Park side.

Only runs north south . The only way to get from Carole Park across the Centenary (or rather under it) is at Waterford Rd, or down at Julie Rd, so even though the bike path is there you have to walk in a big loop (as I did).


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[mufreight]

There is a bike path there already on the Carole Park side.

Only runs north south . The only way to get from Carole Park across the Centenary (or rather under it) is at Waterford Rd, or down at Julie Rd, so even though the bike path is there you have to walk in a big loop (as I did).


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

There is provision for a subway to be constructed under the Centenary Highway that will connect with the station subway.   

[Gazza]

Gazza, there already is considerable residential development in very close range to Ellen Grove.

.What is that at Forest Lake and Carole Park? The few areas near the station are going to be built up as well.

What about this map then?
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-32.418298,115.753241&z=14&t=k&nmd=20120630

Forest Lake scale development there too. But no stations between Warnbro and Mandurah.

They made a conscious descion to have a trade off between less stations, but this allowing the train to run much faster and have less rollingstock requirements.

[ozbob]

There are future plans for a thoroughfare. 

Lets just let one of the local political candidates from the last election sum it up.

I will pressure the Government to improve bus services to the area. Given that the Richlands-Springfield rail project has missed a key opportunity to locate a train station right in the heart of Ellen Grove & Carole Park, the woefully inadequate bus services will need drastic improvement. In the heart of the current Transport Minister's own electorate, we are subjected to inadequate timetables, virtually non-existent weekend services beyond Forest Lake, some of Brisbane's oldest buses based out of the Richlands depot, and services that can run up to an hour late by 8am. The Route 100 is not a panacea for the entire region's difficulties.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/inala-candidate-profile-qld-queensland-state-election-2012-qldvotes-qldpol-yourvote12-alp-lnp-kap-ind-greens-labor-liberal-national-katter-party/story-fn8ygho7-1226278535168

It is farcical not to build Ellen Grove station greenfield.  Has nothing to do with Perth.  The fact is it is needed, and the rail line is being built.
A typical Queensland botch.

What do you think of the stations on the MBRL? 

[mufreight]

Current figures I am told indicate that each car space equates to almost three passengers on rail or the alternative of three more cars on the road for the full length of their commute.

How is this even possible?  Figures I have seen show that far more people reach PT as a car driver than a car passenger, and the latter would include kiss 'n' ride people.

Well, why not tax the CBD parking as happens in Sydney?

Might I suggest that you visit Richlands station one morning and count the number of passengers in cars entering the station from both the Garden Road and the Progress Road entrances, you will very quickly realise where the passengers boarding trains at Richlands come from and how they reach the station.  We are talking about a specific locality here and the figures are not only possible but credible.

As for paid parking which was what you raised in your previous post and to which I responded that it an entirely different matter to what you now propose taxing CBD parking rather than station parking.   

[Gazza]

locate a train station right in the heart of Ellen Grove & Carole Park.

Had to quote this from the candidates media release, but LOL? What "Heart"? The plant nursey?

It is farcical not to build Ellen Grove station greenfield.  Has nothing to do with Perth.  The fact is it is needed, and the rail line is being built.

It has got to everything to do with Perth. The point is that just because there is a patch of houses doesn't mean there has to be a station put there.
Over there, they actually realise that, and space their stations accordingly, and not cave into people who want a station on their doorstep at the expense of the efficiency of the whole line.

There is provision for a subway to be constructed under the Centenary Highway that will connect with the station subway.

Where?
All I can see is a culvert here http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.618787,152.941983&z=20&t=k&nmd=20120619

[ozbob]

Richlands is at car park capacity early.  The number of cars at Gailes is getting more week by week too.

Darra is parked out as is Wacol and Goodna.

Springfield railway stations parks will take 300 cars off the road (200 at Springfield 100 at Springfield Central).   The ability of TransLink to organise an effective feeder network of buses is doubtful because of funding.  So it will be worse then ever.  Particularly if Redbank Plains types head over to Springfield.

There already serious traffic congestion problems in the area.

[ozbob]

You seem to have missed a critical point.  Ellen Grove station is being built. It is just a matter of when.

I have always believed it was economically prudent to do it greenfield, not brownfield in 5 years time at 5 to 10 times the cost.

The problem with infrastructure in Queensland is that is generally half baked.  Never enough funds because of the amount of money squandered fixing up early botches.  He is an opportunity to sort something right.

As far as one station making a difference in rolling stock requirements on a 16 km branch line, the reality is a stop at Ellen Grove is going to make no difference at all.

[mufreight]

Gazza, there already is considerable residential development in very close range to Ellen Grove.

.What is that at Forest Lake and Carole Park? The few areas near the station are going to be built up as well.

What about this map then?
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-32.418298,115.753241&z=14&t=k&nmd=20120630

Forest Lake scale development there too. But no stations between Warnbro and Mandurah.

They made a conscious descion to have a trade off between less stations, but this allowing the train to run much faster and have less rollingstock requirements.

Arguing simply for the sake of arguing that one is right even when one is actually wrong is futile, there is a definate identified need for the Station at EllenGrove and it can be built now at about 1/3 rd of the cost of constructing it after the line is in use.
The failure to provide adequate commuter car parking at Springfield Central and Springfield strengthens the need.
The residental development in those currently large blocks will fill in even more quickly than the development has around Richlands station.
What is not needed is another half baked one buttock solution as has happened at Oxley to save money and which will in turn cost two to three times as much to rectify within a couple of years.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Could bus services suppliment it instead as it sounds similar to placing a station between Carseldine and Bald Hills. Ie Ellen Grove-Richlands railbus. Covers more area than a station would with walk up patronage.

[Gazza]

You seem to have missed a critical point.  Ellen Grove station is being built. It is just a matter of when.

And stations can be added to the Mandurah Line in the future too.

How are the two situations any different?

and it can be built now at about 1/3 rd of the cost of constructing it after the line is in use.

Poppycock. Even with the odd line closure you aren't going to treble your construction costs.
Provide links etc to support this assertion.

[ozbob]

Ellen Grove is being built.  On Mandurah they might be built.

The drainage around the station site has been done. 

Anyway,  I am hopeful that it can still be brought on.  Less likely now after all these years but some of us will continue to push constructively.

[ozbob]

Could bus services suppliment it instead as it sounds similar to placing a station between Carseldine and Bald Hills. Ie Ellen Grove-Richlands railbus. Covers more area than a station would with walk up patronage.

I doubt if TransLink will.  But it is rather silly to have the railway line there and no station from the outset.  It will be built down the track, but it will be lot more costly. 

[ozbob]

The construction alliance is in situ.  It is relatively economical to construct greeenfield, rather than brownfield down the track.

Staff are trained, and certified for the project.  Equipment is available, teams of engineers, workers and what not.

To come back cold start is a lot more expensive. Everything has to be set up again from scratch.  I would be surprised if it could be done for only three times the cost of greenfield now.

[Gazza]

Ellen Grove is being built.

When though? Is there something along the lines of "By 2020" or something, in the planning docs?

[mufreight]

You seem to have missed a critical point.  Ellen Grove station is being built. It is just a matter of when.

And stations can be added to the Mandurah Line in the future too.

How are the two situations any different?

and it can be built now at about 1/3 rd of the cost of constructing it after the line is in use.

Poppycock. Even with the odd line closure you aren't going to treble your construction costs.
Provide links etc to support this assertion.

If you want a comparative figure for the escalated costs of building a station on an in service line as opposed to a greenfield construction then consider the figures from the engineer who was in charge of the Corinda to Darra project.
the difference in costs to construct the additional platform at Oxley as a greenfield project as it could have been following the first slew of the tracks which took the trains to what are now platforms 2 and 3 and the electrification of the missing link between Corinda platform 2 and the Panard Street crossover was costed at $18 to $20 million, the latest costing is now up to $59 million.
This increase in costs is brought about by the costs of setting up and the constraints of construction on an in service line.
Not included would be the ongoing speed restrictions on operation of train services through the construction site and the knock on effects on timetabling as a consequence.
A bit of practical reality goes a lot further than pedantic obstructionism.
Perth to Mandurah is a 50+ kilometer line, a more realistic comparison with station spacing would be Ferny Grove to Bowen Hills and if you wish to stick with the Mandurah comparison check the end of line commuter parking availability and the feeder bus routes in the catchment areas for all the stations on the Mandurah line.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Thinking about it more a Richlands/Ellen Grove rail bus via Ellen Grove/Forest Lake in combination with extending the 100buz to Richlands or EllenGrove depending on how the bus network is set up (another prime example of how stupid the bus network is with the 100 terminating at the shops with a train station near by) and Ellen Grove railway station would be on to something. Connects people to the shops, increases people that might utilise it to get to the station or the buz at Forest Lake shops. Local students could catch it to school. But $$$ doesn't grow on trees.

[ozbob]

In 2007 I was told it would be 5 years behind.  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=224.msg673#msg673

5 years is up!   

[somebody]

But it is rather silly to have the railway line there and no station from the outset.  It will be built down the track, but it will be lot more costly.

Might I suggest that you visit Richlands station one morning and count the number of passengers in cars entering the station from both the Garden Road and the Progress Road entrances, you will very quickly realise where the passengers boarding trains at Richlands come from and how they reach the station.  We are talking about a specific locality here and the figures are not only possible but credible.

I still find it implausible.  2012 load survey showed 1391 people boarding inbound services at Richlands up to those arriving at Central at 9am.  There's 650 car spaces reputedly parked out.  There are kiss 'n' riders and feeder buses.  With a 1:1 driver:passenger ratio it would be difficult for those figures to work.

[mufreight]

But it is rather silly to have the railway line there and no station from the outset.  It will be built down the track, but it will be lot more costly.

Might I suggest that you visit Richlands station one morning and count the number of passengers in cars entering the station from both the Garden Road and the Progress Road entrances, you will very quickly realise where the passengers boarding trains at Richlands come from and how they reach the station.  We are talking about a specific locality here and the figures are not only possible but credible.

I still find it implausible.  2012 load survey showed 1391 people boarding inbound services at Richlands up to those arriving at Central at 9am.  There's 650 car spaces reputedly parked out.  There are kiss 'n' riders and feeder buses.  With a 1:1 driver:passenger ratio it would be difficult for those figures to work.

Better than 40% of those passengers boarding at Richlands do not go to Central, their journies are to stations such as Indooroopilly, Toowong, Milton, Roma Street and Fortitude Valley or beyond.
There are also those who use private cars to the station then bus from there on the 460 to Mt Omaney and Indooroopilly

[Gazza]

"There might be call for one at Ellen Grove in about five years. It would have to be viable and accessible.

Might be one in 5 years.

Its certainly not accessible at the present time anyway. If there was a street running east west through a subdivision in Ellen Grove (Extend Lochwood Ave west) then you'd pop the station at the end and everything would flow towards it.

But at present Ellen Grove is a big square that cuts it off from the forest lake proper, and Carole Park residents have to loop around to get to the station site.

Compare that to Richlands.
From forest lake, all roads lead to Rome Richlands which makes it perfectly located for its task.

The big thing that seems to be missed is that you could make the developers pay for the new station in the future as part of the subdivision, but there is nobody you could capture that from at present.

[ozbob]

All will be resolved ...  even with the present road configuration a large part of Forest Lake could access EG easily compared to the nightmare on the boulevard and other roads.  Flow would be counter peak.

Like most things there is more to EG than what is stated publicly.  BCC has held off with sewerage works.  There has been stalemate between Council and developers. Neither wanted to pay.  The price of land has now reached the point where the developers are prepared to put in hence the development applications.  Pity Springfield Corp. didn't do the EG bit, if that was the case there would no doubt be a station, and probably with lifts as well .. lol

Look at the map again.  Strike you as being a bit odd? 

Map of Ellen Grove station site.  Note the residential developments ..



https://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.617535,152.941918&z=15&t=h&nmd=20120619

[somebody]

I still find it implausible.  2012 load survey showed 1391 people boarding inbound services at Richlands up to those arriving at Central at 9am.  There's 650 car spaces reputedly parked out.  There are kiss 'n' riders and feeder buses.  With a 1:1 driver:passenger ratio it would be difficult for those figures to work.

Better than 40% of those passengers boarding at Richlands do not go to Central, their journies are to stations such as Indooroopilly, Toowong, Milton, Roma Street and Fortitude Valley or beyond.
There are also those who use private cars to the station then bus from there on the 460 to Mt Omaney and Indooroopilly

The 1391 figure included those people who alight services before Central.

[SurfRail]

I think comparisons to Mandurah are really disingenuous because Mandurah has been purposely built to avoid walk-up patronage and focus on bringing people in from up to 80km away or more.  It was never intended to be anything other than a regional collector.  Ellen Grove is a different kettle of fish because it would primarily serve a local catchment by catalysing the land use.  There is actually extraordinarily little TOD on the Mandurah line except for a  bit at Cockburn going from my visit earlier this year. We have far more here although some of the best examples in Perth like Subiaco and Joondalup do not have any parallel over here.

When the next station is further away that Varsity Lakes is from Robina there can't be that much of an issue.

[somebody]

I think comparisons to Mandurah are really disingenuous because Mandurah has been purposely built to avoid walk-up patronage and focus on bringing people in from up to 80km away or more.  It was never intended to be anything other than a regional collector.  Ellen Grove is a different kettle of fish because it would primarily serve a local catchment by catalysing the land use.  There is actually extraordinarily little TOD on the Mandurah line except for a  bit at Cockburn going from my visit earlier this year. We have far more here although some of the best examples in Perth like Subiaco and Joondalup do not have any parallel over here.

When the next station is further away that Varsity Lakes is from Robina there can't be that much of an issue.

[mufreight]

"There might be call for one at Ellen Grove in about five years. It would have to be viable and accessible.

Might be one in 5 years.

Its certainly not accessible at the present time anyway. If there was a street running east west through a subdivision in Ellen Grove (Extend Lochwood Ave west) then you'd pop the station at the end and everything would flow towards it.

But at present Ellen Grove is a big square that cuts it off from the forest lake proper, and Carole Park residents have to loop around to get to the station site.

Compare that to Richlands.
From forest lake, all roads lead to Rome Richlands which makes it perfectly located for its task.

The big thing that seems to be missed is that you could make the developers pay for the new station in the future as part of the subdivision, but there is nobody you could capture that from at present.

Thank heavens you are not a town planner, you like many lose sight of the fact  that there are three basic reasons for people using any service, the first is convenience, then cost followed by need and those who use the service decide if it meets their need.
Go back to the original concept of the Springfield line was a single track and only three tracks between Corinda and Darra.
The need for the four tracks between Corinda and Darra and the double track between Darra and Richlands has already been proven in operation, head in the sand, only half do the job attitudes have got the rail transport system into the existing pathetic state that it presently is in and does not justify a continuation of that methodology.
The developers of the present buffer area of semi rural blocks will eventually pay for the sewerage and for the station but it remains undisputed fact that there is a definate need for the station at EllenGrove now and all the pedantic shortsighted vision will not change that basic fact.

[somebody]

The need for the four tracks between Corinda and Darra and the double track between Darra and Richlands has already been proven in operation, head in the sand, only half do the job attitudes have got the rail transport system into the existing pathetic state that it presently is in and does not justify a continuation of that methodology.

How has the need been proven?

[mufreight]

The need for the four tracks between Corinda and Darra and the double track between Darra and Richlands has already been proven in operation, head in the sand, only half do the job attitudes have got the rail transport system into the existing pathetic state that it presently is in and does not justify a continuation of that methodology.

How has the need been proven?

Well for starters in the am peak there are frequently all four tracks occupied between Corinda and Darra and on occasion there is also a city bound Bowen Hills service ex Richlands which together with an outbound empty coal service makes five trains occupying the Corinda to Darra section at the one time, between Darra and Richlands the Richlands and the Bowen Hills service often cross before the Richlands station if the outbound Richlands service is atwo minutes late so this establishes the need for double track for that section allowing timetabling to be maintained without any need for precission crosses or excessive standing times, a need that will become even more critical with the extension of the line and services to Springfield.

Reading back through the posts in this thread it becomes obvious that some have not the least experience, practical or otherwise in operating any form of passenger service

[Gazza]

Reading back through the posts in this thread it becomes obvious that some have not the least experience, practical or otherwise in operating any form of passenger service

[Gazza]

I'm sorry is there some reason parents can't take prams on a bus?
I've certainly seen plenty do it!

The problem is not lack of car parking, it's lack of feeder buses.  And considering feeder buses can be put on at a fraction of the cost per seat of car parking, it makes sense to have more buses and less car parks.

Solving the pram parking issue. Westfield actually has a permit system these days for people using the pram spots.

Im sure say a handful of pram spots at the Springfield station satisfies these concerns.
You could build a massive car park, and there would still be no guarantee the parents with prams could use it.

[somebody]

You're not convincing me, mufreight.  Coal could be banished from peak hour.

[Gazza]

OzBob wrote:
Cr Morrison is correct, 100 car parking spaces is not adequate at Springfield Central.

Not enough to fill one carriage on one train even.
Imagine on day one when car drivers arrive to find the car park full. They'll just do what they always did and drive to work instead. Maybe that's just what GovCo and the road lobby want them to do.

You could never hope to provide enough car parking spaces to cater for everyone so why even try though? A train with 600 seats is departing every 6 minutes in the height of peak. Do the sums and consider how many parking spaces you would need to support that if everyone drove. It's called mass transit for a reason.

The answer of course is the approach of buses timetabled to meet trains as they arrive, with quick, direct routes delivering people to the track.

I think in the last TL doc I read under 10% of people use their car to access PT. The other +90% walk or cycle, or use a bus. This is the sort of behavior that needs to continue to be encouraged.

Park and ride spaces are costly ($20,000 each) yet the people who want them seemingly outright refuse to pay anything towards their cost through parking charges. WTF?

Meanwhile it costs money for feeder bus users take a bus to the station.

Seems like park and riders want to have their cake and eat it too.

[mufreight]

You're not convincing me, mufreight.  Coal could be banished from peak hour.

Possibly freight services including coal could be as you put it be banished over the peaks but at the present time there is no need to do so and the freight movements coexist with commuter services without conflict.  It is freight that pays the bills not passenger services, with better than 17 coalies each way each day if the coal services were banished through the peak hour that would effectively remove 5 or 6 coal trains each day.
As it is at the present time the coal, grain, pipe and livestock services are operated without blocking passenger services unlike on the NCL where there is a lack of capacity due to lack of infrastructure which has an adverse effect not only for freight movements but also restricts the operation of passenger services with no option other than to operate some 40% of passenger services by road.

[huddo45]

OzBob wrote:
Cr Morrison is correct, 100 car parking spaces is not adequate at Springfield Central.

Not enough to fill one carriage on one train even.
Imagine on day one when car drivers arrive to find the car park full. They'll just do what they always did and drive to work instead. Maybe that's just what GovCo and the road lobby want them to do.

You could never hope to provide enough car parking spaces to cater for everyone so why even try though? A train with 600 seats is departing every 6 minutes in the height of peak. Do the sums and consider how many parking spaces you would need to support that if everyone drove. It's called mass transit for a reason.

The answer of course is the approach of buses timetabled to meet trains as they arrive, with quick, direct routes delivering people to the track.

I think in the last TL doc I read under 10% of people use their car to access PT. The other +90% walk or cycle, or use a bus. This is the sort of behavior that needs to continue to be encouraged.

Park and ride spaces are costly ($20,000 each) yet the people who want them seemingly outright refuse to pay anything towards their cost through parking charges. WTF?

Meanwhile it costs money for feeder bus users take a bus to the station.

Seems like park and riders want to have their cake and eat it too.

A train every six minutes with 600 seats from where? Central?
If there are insufficient car parks and no feeder buses from Springfield Central then who will ride the trains? People will want to drive there from far and wide,e.g.it's an easy 100kph drive to Ripley now the Centenary Hwy has been extended.
Feeder buses have to be subsidised anyway, and they can't go everywhere. If a parking space keeps one car off the congested roads every day for decades then it's worth it in the long run. Paid parking seems to be happening everywhere these days anyway, so a reasonable fee might not be a problem especially if some security is provided, and perhaps shade as well.
As for only 10% of people using cars to access 'PT' let's see some figures from an actual railway station with car parks available.

[somebody]

The fact that trains run outside the inner core and say GC-AP out of peak on most lines is purely political.

We've been through this so many times!  Your entire argument flies in the face of all international experience.  If peak hour is profitable, it's only because they aren't paying for all the services that they use e.g. rollingstock.  Remove off peak and you increase the subsidies required.  They need to increase the off peak.