Richlands to Springfield Central - Stage 2

[#Metro]

Stations derailed
By CHRISTOPHER O'LEARY

RAIL commuters living in Springfield Lakes better grab a bus timetable rather than pine for a local station, according to State Transport Minister Rachel Nolan.

During a Greater Springfield Chamber of Commerce address last Thursday, Ms Nolan said the travel needs of Springfield Lakes residents could be satisfied with better bus and rail connections.

She said the State Government was committed to providing a station at Springfield Central as part of the $646 million Springfield rail link to be built opposite the town centre by 2013. But other stations in Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes must wait until population levels rose.

"I know that people would like to see a Springfield Lakes station sooner and I am open to that idea in the future," Ms Nolan said. "Right now there are two reasons not to. One is the $25 million it would cost. In bringing this project forward we are trying to squeeze as much rail line out of our money as we can. We also need to get higher density around our stations and Springfield Lakes doesn't really have that."

RAIL Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said that it would be cheaper to build the extra stations with the line.

I don't agree. I have caught the bus to Springfield lakes, transferring from the train, and it is like going on a Safari.
Windy, loopy, slow.

$25 million is a drop in the ocean compared to the huge (triple digit millions) amounts of money being spent on busway and road tunnels. There are alternatives here putting the stations in a different zones, partnering with developers, TODs and the like.

I can see this one become a political vote buyer in an election. All someone has to do is say "I will build the rail line to Springfield" and from that whole area will give them their votes. Too easy.
Nobody likes to sit in Ipswich Motorway traffic.

And how frequent is this bus going to be?

[ra303]

so does that mean that Springfield Lakes may not get a train station ever ?

[O_128]

so does that mean that Springfield Lakes may not get a train station ever ?

no it means we need to replace our current transport minister with someone capable of doing the job properly.

[Westy]

Understand the Premier, the Minister for Transport are out at Richlands station for an official announcement.

Also, I have sought confirmation about the track.  Advice from Ministerial staff is that it will be dual track to Springfield.  

Hi

I have some inside information for you that you will not like.  The transport ministers staff my have advised that it will be dual track from Richlands to Springfield, but if you speak to Infrastructure and planning you will get the truth.

A friend of a friend has seen the actual infrastructure plans for the stage two and it is NOT dual track to Springfield.

It is a single track to Springfield with a dual station that is to be located on the Springfield side of the Centenary Hwy opposite the Orion shopping centre.

This is very upsetting to me, so am bringing this to your attention and hopefully you will be able to pressure the Premier / Dept Infrastructure & Planning into making it a dual track for the benefit of greater Springfield residents.

I believe they are keeping this quite as the media / marketing promotions material that is being produced show two tracks on it and I don't belive Delfin have been notified either as a plan of theirs I saw on the weekend had two tracks and the station on the Orion side of the Centenary Hwy.

Speaking of the Centenary Hwy, it is not scheduled to be upgraded to dual a Hwy from the Logan motorway to Springfield till 2025.

I hope you can act on this information.  Thanks for all your Good work to date.

[ozbob]

G'day Westy,

I have had previous direct advice from Ministerial staff that line is now to double track all the way to Springfield.  In view of your comments I will again request for this matter to be clarified.

The original concept was for a single line section from Richlands to Stepham and then double track into Springfield (Central).   There may be some confusion with old plans and so forth.

I will seek further clarification.

Regards
Bob

[colinw]

The map & text of the most recent project fact sheet on the SEQIP site clearly states dual track.  If QR's own project website is not authoritative then we have a problem.

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/NetworkServices/SEQIP/CurrentProjects/DarratoSpringfield/Documents/DSTC%20Factsheet_June10.pdf

If that is not in fact true, then some long and loud squeals to all the relevant media outlets would be in order!

[Golliwog]

It wouldn't be the first time departments haven't communicated well with each other, and certainly not the last.

[ozbob]

I have been advised that is double track.  Absolutely, and written confirmation follows.

No worries!  We just need the stations at Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes ..   

[Westy]

Thanks Bob,

I will follow up with my friend to make sure DIP is aware of this.

Thanks in advance.

[ozbob]

On the rail corridor, Waterford Road









Photographs mufreight 8th August 2010

[ozbob]

From the Springfield News 18th August 2010 pages 1 and 3

Call for more stations on the Springfield line

[ozbob]

Map click --> here!

Note the locations of both Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes stations, where the maximum housing densities are.  Would allow a lot of walk up passengers, and take pressure off Richlands.  It is mindless stupidity not to build these stations.  Greenfield construction is much much cheaper than brown field.

[somebody]

I must say, I am wondering if the proposal to build the line, but without the stations is a plan to distract RailBoT from the other issues with the train network.  I struggle to believe they could come up with such a stupid idea, and believe it should be implemented.

Is that too strong?

[ozbob]

    no, this has been an issue for a long time.  There was a very good channel 10 news story in 2007 I recall which it was highlighted.  

--> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6.msg473#msg473

[#Metro]

A feeder bus network to every station must be in place from day number one , meeting every single train.
This will amplify the demand for rail and put more passengers on the train, forcing upgraded services.
This is important because not everyone can walk up to the station, nor should they be expected to, and P&R is very expensive.

Single track is always a bad idea in situations like this. Gold Coast, Cleveland and Ferny Grove lines anyone?

I'm very glad that a station is planned to go in right next to Orion Shopping Centre Springfield.
Alternative #2:
TODs developed around the stations, offsetting the cost of construction and allowing more stations to be built.

Alternative 3: Both 1 + 2

Feed me!!!   feeder feeder feeder

[ozbob]

There are plans as I understand to run buses from Springfield into Richlands during the rail construction phase.  Pick up at the rail station sites will be in the plan no doubt.  So when the rail line swings into operation they will then have to get to Richlands or Springfield Central ????  Crazy daisy ...

[somebody]

But building it without the stations is too stupid for words!  They have to have some hidden agenda, surely, and RailBoT was apparently around back then.

The stations are far far far more important than the dual track, I say.

[ozbob]

See here as well --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=321.0  and

--> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=246.0

[ozbob]

A blast from the past ...  



=============

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=224.0

Media Release 11 September 2007

Brisbane City Council demonstrates the need for station near Forest Lake

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail has highlighted the nonsense response by Queensland Transport (QT) to calls for additional stations on the Darra to Springfield railway line.

Robert Dow said:

"While Lord Mayor Campbell Newman and Councillor Victoria Newton bicker over quick fixes to overcrowding on the Brisbane bus network, Queensland Transport's response to Rail Back on Track's calls to build stations at Ellen Grove (Forrest Lake/Carole Park) and Springfield Lakes (reference 1)  shows that the state?s highest transport authority is in denial over how to deliver urgently needed public transport services to these rapidly growing suburbs.

"In it's response to Rail Back on Track's concerns, Queensland Transport claimed that the decision to delay the construction of stations at Ellen Grove (Forrest Lake/Carole Park) and Springfield Lakes was based on current and projected population figures, as well as likely travel patterns?  (Queensland Times 14/08/07).

"However QT's position not to immediately build these stations has been shown to be flawed given that of the many bus services suffering chronic overcrowding,  Newton's plan highlighted that sweeper buses are needed to cope with capacity on bus route 100 - Forrest Lake to City (mX 3/09/07).  With the rapid growth occurring in the Springfield region it is likely that bus services in Springfield Lakes will be similarly overstretched in the near future.

"The only solution that is not a cheap and nasty quick-fix is to build the stations at Ellen Grove (Forrest Lake/Carole Park) and Springfield Lakes at the earliest possible time.  Existing bus routes in the area should then be modified to link up with stations and deliver the integrated transport solution that TRANSLink was set up to provide.

"Rail is the real public transport solution for Forrest Lake and it is noteworthy that a train from Ellen Grove would be expected to take in the order of 30 minutes to reach the Brisbane CBD compared to the nearly one hour for bus services.

"It's time that Queensland Transport caught up with the game and provided quality public transport when it is needed - not five to ten years too late.

Reference:

1.  Media Release 9 Aug 2007 Darra to Springfield Railway Line ? More stations needed! http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=185.0

Contact:

Administration RAIL Back On Track

admin@backontrack.org

http://backontrack.org

All RAIL Back On Track media releases are available
here --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?board=19.0

[mufreight]

The earthworks and bridges to the south of Richlands already being constructed reach almost to the future location of the future Ellengrove station site, to continue this work to the point where the Ellengrove Station could be built and extend the services there would relieve the load and the already predicted parking problems for Richlands within a shorter time frame than the full construction of the line to Springfield.
A staged commissioning of the line is practical and would actually save considerable funds by enabling these intermediate stations to be a greenfield construction rather than being constructed on an in service line under traffic.

[colinw]

That's a great idea.  Richlands in '11, Ellen Grove in '12, Springfield & Springfield Lakes in '13.

Something similar happened when the Gold Coast line was opened.  Stage 1 was Beenleigh to Helensvale.  Stage 2 was supposed to be Helensvale to Robina, but ended up opening in two shorter stages, to Nerang first, then to Robina.  Trains terminated at Nerang for several months before Robina opened.

[#Metro]

So what is the current status of the project? Will they keep extending from Richlands all the way to Springfield lakes.
IMHO on the Gold Coast line, the costs for each subsequent extension in millions of dollars/km increased with each extension. AIUI, Varsity lakes was the most expensive extension so far on that line.

"However QT's position not to immediately build these stations has been shown to be flawed given that of the many bus services suffering chronic overcrowding,  Newton's plan highlighted that sweeper buses are needed to cope with capacity on bus route 100 - Forrest Lake to City (mX 3/09/07).  With the rapid growth occurring in the Springfield region it is likely that bus services in Springfield Lakes will be similarly overstretched in the near future.

"The only solution that is not a cheap and nasty quick-fix is to build the stations at Ellen Grove (Forrest Lake/Carole Park) and Springfield Lakes at the earliest possible time.  Existing bus routes in the area should then be modified to link up with stations and deliver the integrated transport solution that TRANSLink was set up to provide.

"Rail is the real public transport solution for Forrest Lake and it is noteworthy that a train from Ellen Grove would be expected to take in the order of 30 minutes to reach the Brisbane CBD compared to the nearly one hour for bus services.

"It's time that Queensland Transport caught up with the game and provided quality public transport when it is needed - not five to ten years too late.

Minimum Density Requirements... now there is an interesting thought!

[WTN]

Minimum Density Requirements... now there is an interesting thought!

Demand is there which trumps that argument. Had such requirements been around 100+ years ago many railways probably wouldn't be built!

[#Metro]

What I don't get is why there aren't more CBDs.

In SEQ we have this situation where people from Springfield lakes 25 km away from the CBD are commuting... it must require a huge number of buses just to get a half decent frequency and speed to somewhere that far. Then there is the Gold Coast which is 70 km away, with people doing 140 km    round trips. In a year, what's that... a round trip around the entire earth?

[longboi]

BCC and to a lesser extent the State Government are trying to address this issue. It seems, however, to the opposition I've received to my suggestions on this forum suggest that you and most other members of this forum have not read any planning documents in relation to this issue.

[Stillwater]

Obviously lots to do on the rail network.  I sometimes wounder if the Minister called all of us into her office and asked for a consensus on the top 10 infrastructure improvements (as opposed to operational improvements) we would want, in order of priority.  It would be a hard call, I think.

[ozbob]

--> http://www.planning.org.au/documents/item/1119

[ozbob]

-->  http://myboot.com.au/4300/Springfield%20Lakes/suburb.aspx

Welcome to Springfield Lakes(4300)
.

   * Distance from Brisbane CBD: 25km (15.4 miles)
   * Approximate size for this postcode: 81.2 km²
   * Surrounding suburbs: Greenbank(4124), Redbank Plains(4301), Spring Mountain(4124)
   * Other suburbs with same post code: Augustine Heights, Bellbird Park, Brookwater, Camira, Carole Park, Gailes, Goodna, Goodna Dc, Springfield,
   * Total of population in this postcode in year 2006 : 34347 people
   * Average age persons in 2006 was: 30 years old
   * Most of people in Springfield Lakes were born in Australia
   * Ancestors were mostly from: Australian
   * Industry of occupation is mostly on: Technicians & trades workers
   * Median house price (2009): $399,000

Welcome to Ellen Grove(4078)
.

   * Distance from Brisbane CBD: 18km (11.1 miles)
   * Approximate size for this postcode: 12.5 km²
   * Surrounding suburbs: Carole Park(4300), Greenbank(4124), Opossum Creek(2479), Richlands(4077), Inala(4077), Wacol(4076)
   * Other suburbs with same post code: Forest Lake
   * Total of population in this postcode in year 2006 : 21356 people
   * Average age persons in 2006 was: 32 years old
   * Most of people in Ellen Grove were born in Australia
   * Ancestors were mostly from: Australian
   * Industry of occupation is mostly on: Clerical & administrative workers
   * Median unit price (2009): $333,500

Welcome to Forest Lake(4078)
.

   * Distance from Brisbane CBD: 18km (11.4 miles)
   * Approximate size for this postcode: 12.5 km²
   * Surrounding suburbs: Doolandella(4077), Greenbank(4124), Heathwood(4110), Inala(4077)
   * Other suburbs with same post code: Ellen Grove,
   * Total of population in this postcode in year 2006 : 21356 people
   * Average age persons in 2006 was: 32 years old
   * Most of people in Forest Lake were born in Australia
   * Ancestors were mostly from: Australian
   * Industry of occupation is mostly on: Clerical & administrative workers
   * Median house price (2009): $372,500
   * Median unit price (2009): $315,000

Welcome to Doolandella(4077)
.

   * Distance from Brisbane CBD: 17km (10.4 miles)
   * Approximate size for this postcode: 18.9 km²
   * Surrounding suburbs: Inala East(4077), Forest Lake(4078), Heathwood(4110), Willawong(4110), Serviceton(3420), Inala Heights(4077), Pallara(4110)
   * Other suburbs with same post code: Durack, Inala, Inala East, Inala Heights, Richlands, Richlands Dc
   * Total of population in this postcode in year 2006 : 22337 people
   * Average age persons in 2006 was: 34 years old
   * Most of people in Doolandella were born in Australia
   * Ancestors were mostly from: Australian
   * Industry of occupation is mostly on: Labourers
   * Median house price (2009): $357,500

2006 populations figures alone support Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes stations to be built now.  Springfield and its neigbours is one of the fastest growing regions in Australia.  Not building the rail stations is an absolute IDIOCY of the highest order.

[ozbob]

In the 2006 Census (held on 8th August 2006), there were 17,507 persons usually resident in Doolandella-Forest Lake (Statistical Local Area): 48.2% were males and 51.8% were females.

In the 2006 Census (held on 8th August 2006), there were 4,852 persons usually resident in Springfield Lakes (Ipswich City) (Suburb):

In the 2006 Census (held on 8th August 2006), there were 5,732 persons usually resident in Springfield (Ipswich City) (Suburb):

ABS  http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/ABSNavigation/prenav/LocationSearch?producttype=QuickStats&subaction=-1&action=104&collection=Census&textversion=false&breadcrumb=PL&period=2006&javascript=true&navmapdisplayed=true&

[Golliwog]

Ozbob, the populations you have with the postcodes are the total population for that entire postcode.

[#Metro]

I can see why they don't want to put a station in at Ellen Grove:

http://www.nearmap.com/?q=Ellen%20Grove%20(Suburb)@-27.616851,152.944107&ll=-27.616014,152.954664&z=15&t=k&nmd=20100911

They must have this idea that most people are going to walk to the station. But look a bit further- you have Forest Lake etc.
People can be brought in on BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) from the nearby Forest lake development to get the passenger number up
add in a park and ride, and there you go.

Also, has the modeling done simply assumed that the presence of a rail line will have no impact on the surrounding land use?
The reason why I ask is because "nobody lives there" argument is being trotted out, which is true NOW, but might not be true in the future as the presence of a rail
station in a fast developing area like Doolandella/Springfield could alter the land use around it.

Do I have an example? I sure do! Once again, from Perth (yes, Perth AGAIN!!!) --

Transport-oriented development

The station is at the heart of an award-winning transport oriented development scheme known as The Village at Wellard. Its design that incorporates parks, walkability, and rail proximity has earned it awards from the Urban Development Institute of Western Australia, Planning Institute Australia, Landscape Industries Association, and HIA Land-Corp.[1] The development contains not only low- and medium-density residential development, but also over 57 ha (0.22 sq mi) of parkland and conservation areas.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellard_railway_station,_Perth

Wellard is in la-la land, 35 km from the Perth CBD. It is a TOD.

http://www.nearmap.com/?q=Wellard@-32.263838,115.817828&ll=-32.262223,115.817807&z=16&t=k&nmd=20100919

[#Metro]

Wellard Station, Perth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Transperth_Wellard_Station_platforms.jpg

[colinw]

--> http://www.planning.org.au/documents/item/1119

Intriguing.

If I read that right, the developers of Springfield themselves expect the Springfield Lakes station by 2015.

Interesting that some of their images include light rail.

[ozbob]

I can see why they don't want to put a station in at Ellen Grove:

Look at the map, packed residential developments Forest Lake etc.  Carol Park industrial.  Workers also going anti-peak.

This is a disgrace this plan to proceed without the stations.  The Queensland Auditor General had real concerns with Transport planning.  Not hard to understand why is it?  Out of touch with reality ...  thank goodness the line is be double track (they had wanted a single line), but you need stations for folks to catch the train.  Richlands will be a nightmare unless Ellen Grove is done, likewise Springfield Lakes is where the majority live.

South-East Queensland's transport system is strained to breaking point, with the State Government ill-equipped to fix the problem, the Auditor-General has found.

[O_128]

What annoys me is that the minister says there is no density for the station, well how is the area supposed to density without a proper transport connection, personally I would like to see at least springfield lakes get built in the first wave with Ellen grove later in the worst case scenario but what's interesting is how much will the station cost later on? Easily upto 50 mill , and will room be left to build proper island stations? I doubt it, build it right or hand in your resignation ms Nolan.



And lastly Springfield corp should be building speingfield lakes why should the state gov have to pay all for the infrastrucure in your development that will long term benefit you?

[ozbob]

There is a fairly obvious angle to this.  Seeing they are flogging off assets, surely the dough to do this line right can be found??

[#Metro]

I need some clarification. Where are the locations of these 2 Springfield stations?
I can see something being built next to Nev Smith Drive - I'm assuming that this is Springfield Lakes
And from documents- another one will go in opposite Orion Shopping Centre? - I'm assuming this is Springfield Central.

IMHO both should be built. What are people expected to do? Drive in the wrong direction for a few km or drive all the way to Richlands?
Just as well that this Centenary Highway is not a tollway!

[ozbob]

See --> http://www.horizonalliance.com.au/Resources/SiteDocuments/doc98657.pdf

For locations.

[#Metro]

There is another possibility: Build Springfield lakes station first.
This is the station at Nev Smith Drive AIUI.

Then run BRT by reserving freeway lanes to connect to it from Orion.
People will have to change at Springfield Lakes but the location of Springfield lakes station is actually better IMHO, and saves people
from having to drive in a backwards direction for 3km.

I know this solution is not ideal, but maybe that might be a way forward.

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/NetworkServices/SEQIP/CurrentProjects/DarratoSpringfield/Pages/DocumentsStage2.aspx

They are going to have people drive backwards!!! It just makes no sense!!!

[ozbob]

I think it is essential to do both stations greenfield as part of the construction Richlands to Springfield.  It will only lead to massive costs down the track and poor patronage uptake if they don't.  I think everyone wants them built, the construction people, the railway people, the residents, the various community groups.  

The only ones who don't get the picture are ____________________________  fill in the missing space correctly and receive a muffin!