UQ Line

[#Metro]

What are your thoughts on a new mass transport connection to UQ?

Possible issues:

The mode: Light Rail, busway, heavy rail, metro other
The alignment: should it be underground or above ground or elevated or a mix?
The route: where should it go, could it go?
Timing: when is it required?
Viability: Is the busway and ESB (Eleanor Schonell Bridge) good enough? Are there better options?

here is an article from the Brisabane Times in late 2008 re: Rail link to UQ.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/students-rally-behind-rail-link/2008/10/08/1223145442153.html

[stephenk]

In what sort of timeframe are you thinking about Tramtrain?

[#Metro]

Its an open question. I don't have a particular timeframe in mind- that point is for open discussion like the others.

[frereOP]

What are your thoughts on a new mass transport connection to UQ?

Possible issues:

The mode: Light Rail, busway, heavy rail, metro other
The alignment: should it be underground or above ground or elevated or a mix?
The route: where should it go, could it go?
Timing: when is it required?
Viability: Is the busway and ESB (Eleanor Schonell Bridge) good enough? Are there better options?

The Metro network proposed by BCC includes the "University Line" from UQ to Newstead.  However I would like to see it go via the east of the city with interchanges at QUT/Botanical Gardens and Riverside rather than City Hall and GPO but with additional stations in West End to transfer capacity from, or supplement the 199 Buz.

[somebody]

We have the Green Bridge now, it's questionable why this is required.  I'd want to see cost savings versus just ramping up bus services.  A train line (or light rail) is going to be very expensive both in capital cost and running costs, while giving a less attractive customer experience.

[#Metro]

Remember that costs are half the equation.
The other half are benefits and new riders.

I guess a similar question would have been faced when construction of the Eleanor Schonell Bridge was
thought of. Why spend 500 million  not just increase the Dutton Park ferry? Its cheaper. But I doubt doing that would have pulled
the massive increase in new riders. A similar situation here.

From the BCC Mass Transit Report (2007)

Construction Costs

Ferry  N/A
BRT    1-32 million/km         ( Probably 150-350 million/km for Brisbane based on recent projects)
LRT     10-100 million/km     ( Probably 20-40 million/km based on G.C. and Yarra Trams, NB: more expensive if underground)
Metro  30-500 million/km     ( Probably 200-400 million/km based on 19km of ICRCs tunnel for 8 billion)
HR      60-300 million/km     ( Same as Metro if tunnelled)

See 'Appendix D' here: http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:BASE::pc=PC_2698

[stephenk]

frereOP, you do realise that BCC stated that any metro network is not required for consideration until after 2026?

The 2nd cross river rail line (which needs to be built as a through line rather than a self-contained metro to allow for required suburban rail capacity increases and network expansion) is likely to avoid UQ as it will join the existing line around Toowong.

The BCC planned metro route parallels the 2nd cross river rail line for most of it's route, which is in my opinion a huge waste of money.

If the 2nd cross city rail line is already doing the job of the metro line, then why not save billions of $$$, and just build an underground mini-metro/APM from UQ to Toowong station. This would be considerably cheaper than building two rail lines along the same route through the city, and I'm still talking about something only needed in 15 years time.

[#Metro]

I would propose to see a better UQ-Indooroopilly and UQ-Toowong connection,
both in terms of speed and capacity.

One (seperate) idea would be to combine 470 Milton Road with 402 UQ-Toowong, and alter the 470 to terminate in the CBD.
This would allow better access to Toowong, Auchenflower, Milton areas where students live.
http://www.translink.com.au/tt_results.php?submit=search&route=470

[#Metro]

For those unfamiliar, APM is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_mover
Stephenk, do you have a ballpark high & low cost estimate per km for APM so I may add it to the list?

[somebody]

I would propose to see a better UQ-Indooroopilly and UQ-Toowong connection,
both in terms of speed and capacity.

I'd be happy to see this too.  The way the westbound 427 turns left at Clarence Rd and then continues a different, but no faster route as compared to the 428, rather than continuing on Swann Rd to Moggill Rd is simply bizarre.

But why not just increase the bus services?

[somebody]

Remember that costs are half the equation.
The other half are benefits and new riders.

So what you are saying is that I was incorrect here:

giving a less attractive customer experience.

Care to give a reason?  If I lived just about anywhere on the southside, I'd far rather being able to use the Boggo Rd busway rather than needing to deviate up to the Cultural Centre.

[#Metro]

Monash University in Melbourne is in a similar situation.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/monash-goes-private-as-staff-students-struggle-with-delays-20100417-slj0.html

Somebody, you are not necessarily "incorrect". I was just pointing out that the worth of any project cannot soley be based of the cost of option X being higher than option Y. The benefits have to be quantified. To put it another way, if we were to judge projects on the basis of cost alone, we would wrongly conclude that the cheapest public transport system is no transport system at all (and let people drive).

Benefits (for any mode) can take the following forms:
* Speed (incorporates time savings)
* Comfort
* Capacity (incorporates a reduction in congestion on roads- a very significant source of benefit in PT projects)
* Convenience
* Accessibility to places
* Increasing property values next to the PT line
* Stimulating development and amenities (new shops, jobs etc).

* The BCC has proposed a metro to UQ (proposal only)
*  UQ Lakes would probably be expanded (though seeing the level of demand generated in just 3.5 years, it would have to be pretty big)
* The Western entry to UQ (from Indro, Kenmore, Chapel Hill and Toowong) could be improved.
* BrisTimes has a story on it and its interesting.

[stephenk]

For those unfamiliar, APM is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_mover
Stephenk, do you have a ballpark high & low cost estimate per km for APM so I may add it to the list?

Sorry, I don't have a cost estimate, as there are no comparable systems in Australia, and most foreign AGT systems may have vastly different construction costs due to a whole range of factors. Station construction would be far less than a conventional metro as they would be smaller, tunnel costs may be lower than a conventional metro if small profile trains are used. However the system would still need some form of maintenance area, SCADA, and control centre just for one station distance. 

Modern examples of the system required would be Siemens VAL208, Bombardier Innovia, Mitsubishi Crystal Mover. The distance between UQ and Toowong may be pushing it for a cable haul system such as Doppelmayr Cable Liner and Leitner Mini-metro.

[somebody]

Sigh.

Ever considered a career in politics?  Let me re-phrase the question:
Would the benefits of the UQ Line be more than the benefits from expanded bus services?

[frereOP]

Would the benefits of the UQ Line be more than the benefits from expanded bus services?

The problem with increasing bus services to cope with increasing demand is increased congestion and slower travel times.  So what do we do?  Build more roads and tunnels to cope with the increased congestion and they get congested so we build more roads and tunnels.

So the answer to you question is yes, it's a no brainer.  What we need is a fast, frequent and reliable metro style rail system that isn't linked into (but compliments) the existing QR CityTrain services.

[somebody]

Only on the Indooroopilly/Toowong side, which wasn't in the map above.

I'd say that it's a no brainer that ramped up bus services are far better for the south east side.

[ozbob]

I have long thought that an underground rail from the main western line coming off between Toowong/Indooroopilly underneath St Lucia UQ, and then joining the CRR at Woolloongabba  (underground junction station) would make sense.  I don't think a metro will ever be a reality in Brisbane, the upgraded heavy rail together with the existing bus network, with more priority to bus on top will do.  Some of the surface bus may end up light rail.  A true separate metro will be long time coming if ever.

[Golliwog]

Brisbanes CBD and inner housing areas aren't really big enough to support a metro. IMO it goes far to quickly to low density housing, so the metro would only be for travel within the business area, which wouldnt stop people driving in there in the first place.

[#Metro]

Sorry, I don't have a cost estimate, as there are no comparable systems in Australia, and most foreign AGT systems may have vastly different construction costs due to a whole range of factors. Station construction would be far less than a conventional metro as they would be smaller, tunnel costs may be lower than a conventional metro if small profile trains are used. However the system would still need some form of maintenance area, SCADA, and control centre just for one station distance.

Modern examples of the system required would be Siemens VAL208, Bombardier Innovia, Mitsubishi Crystal Mover. The distance between UQ and Toowong may be pushing it for a cable haul system such as Doppelmayr Cable Liner and Leitner Mini-metro.

I've heard of these, there are a few operating in France. I think they come under "Medium Capacity System". Not familiar with the cable haul system. It doesn't have to be exact, and variability is expected.

[Jon Bryant]

Brisbanes CBD and inner housing areas aren't really big enough to support a metro. IMO it goes far to quickly to low density housing, so the metro would only be for travel within the business area, which wouldnt stop people driving in there in the first place.

whilst density certainly helps patronage there are many examples Zurick, Vancouver, etc that have high PT usage.  The trips are there to support rail and/or a Metro.  We just need to capture it from them from our roads.  The relative % of trips by PT and motor vehicle is the key issue.

[#Metro]

Would the benefits of the UQ Line be more than the benefits from expanded bus services?

I've asked an open question. If you think buses are better, then how would they be extended, and where?

A closed-ended question is a form of question which can normally be answered using a simple "yes" or "no", a specific simple piece of information, or a selection from multiple choices.

A closed-ended question contrasts with an open-ended question, which cannot be answered with a simple "yes" or "no", or with a specific piece of information, and which give the person answering the question scope to give the information that seems to them to be appropriate. Open-ended questions are sometimes phrased as a statement which requires a response.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-ended_question

Its not necessarily about CBD-UQ Lakes travel. Route 109 and UQ Lakes upgrades are going to do little for people in the Western Suburbs (Toowong, Indooroopilly, Chapel Hill, Ipswich).

[frereOP]

Some of the surface bus may end up light rail.  A true separate metro will be long time coming if ever.

But that's a "Lets wait until we have a problem before we address it" attitude.  Remember the panic when we nearly ran out of water last year?  We know there is a problem and band-aid solutions (lets put some more and bigger buses on) addresses the symptoms, not the problem.  Eventually it will reach saturtation, then what?

Good planning builds tomorrow's infrastructure needs today.

[stephenk]

Brisbanes CBD and inner housing areas aren't really big enough to support a metro. IMO it goes far to quickly to low density housing, so the metro would only be for travel within the business area, which wouldnt stop people driving in there in the first place.

Precisely, which is why any "metro" system in Brisbane should suburban rail trains running through them i.e. 1st and 2nd cross river rail lines as outlined in the ICRCS. Then you have the best of both worlds - high frequency "metro like" services in the CBD, and increased capacity for people to get from the suburbs into the CBD on the existing suburban rail network. Examples of this are in Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto, Nagoya Metros/Subways, Paris RER, Munich & Berlin S-Bahn, and eventually London's Crossrail. Station distances may be slightly further apart than "mini-metro" systems, but by having multiple entrances at each end of the stations, a single station can serve a reasonably large area.

Some of the surface bus may end up light rail.  A true separate metro will be long time coming if ever.

But that's a "Lets wait until we have a problem before we address it" attitude.  Remember the panic when we nearly ran out of water last year?  We know there is a problem and band-aid solutions (lets put some more and bigger buses on) addresses the symptoms, not the problem.  Eventually it will reach saturtation, then what?

Good planning builds tomorrow's infrastructure needs today.

So you are saying, lets build something that we can't yet financially justify? There is not endless pot of money, and any infrastructure projects have to be well justified before they are constructed. Unfortunately it seems that at the moment toll roads seem to be justified easier than essential public transport.

[frereOP]

If that was the criteria, then we would not build anything.  That's exactly why Brisbane Airport is in the process of planning and building the 3rd runway now - perceived future demand.

What is difficult to predict is the take-up but if BUZ is any indication, the take up of new services could be far higher than expected.  Now, you might point to Airtrain, running at a loss for several years with low passenger numbers, Airtrain now makes a profit and has good patronage.  Fare levels, lack of integrated ticketing and a public mindset are the issue there.

But of course in all those cities you mention, suburban and metro trains do not run on each other's track.  What you are talking about is a comprehensive interchange network.  Subways are subways, suburban rail is suburban rail and they compliment each other.

[#Metro]

BUZ Backgroung info http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/6058/1/thredbo10-themeA-Warren.pdf
Eye watering capacity increases...

Frequency makes it happen.

Something interesting:
http://www.sightline.org/publications/enewsletters/price_tags/Price-Tags-93.pdf.

Looking at towards the end of the document is something strange indeed.
People are actually moving into the CBD--- to live! This is unheard of.
I think it is happening in Brisbane too- re-consolidation of the CBD.

The second strange thing is that traffic congestion in the Melbourne CBD has actually... dropped!
(However traffic jams now occur in the suburbs out of the CBD, and congestion in the suburbs has increased).

[Golliwog]

People are realising that trying to drive into the CBD is a bitch with traffic? Well it is an obvious fact, so I'm not surprised its happening. Kind of like a TOD?

[somebody]

So you are saying, lets build something that we can't yet financially justify? There is not endless pot of money, and any infrastructure projects have to be well justified before they are constructed. Unfortunately it seems that at the moment toll roads seem to be justified easier than essential public transport.

Hear here.

If that was the criteria, then we would not build anything.  That's exactly why Brisbane Airport is in the process of planning and building the 3rd runway now - perceived future demand.

Ha Ha, funny example.  Did you know that had been put on hold, at least last I heard, due to slowing growth in demand?

I've asked an open question. If you think buses are better, then how would they be extended, and where?

Fair enough.  I would question the need for service to Clarence Rd/Central Av.  Perhaps if there were 2 Indooroopilly bound routes, one serving Lambert Rd and Indooroopilly Rd, and the other, the current 428 route.  That would free the 427/432 to run by the fastest route to Indro, and then on to Chapell Hill/Kenmore.  There's probably also grounds for other routes to UQ like to Fig Tree Pocket.

And increase the numbers of buses going to Indro. Giving people a bad experience of PT at Uni isn't a good long term option.

Make to 402 non-stop.  Not too sure about the frequency of this one.

And more routes via the green bridge, at least in peak.

[somebody]

How about this possibility:
Start at Kenmore (underground), proceed to Indro, with interchange to the existing platforms, perhaps Indro East around Indooroopilly Rd, St Lucia, UQ, Highgate Hill/West End, South Brisbane, CBD, New Farm, Hawthorne, Cannon Hill and proceed on existing tracks to Cleveland

The good:
serve St Lucia, UQ, West End, New Farm, all of which have numerous buses
speeds up the meandering Cleveland line
reduces the demand for buses markedly

The bad:
Those heading from the Cleveland line to the south side now need to interchange (although not if you are going to UQ)
high price tag due to all underground construction
adds to trains from the north problem
dubious patronage at Kenmore

My personal feeling is that there is no way this could be justified until the 2020s.

[mufreight]

Do not know what you are smoking but maybe if everyone was on it, it might help aleviate the pain that we will all feel when we have to pay for this obviously quite expensive infrastructure.

[Jon Bryant]

...or we can sit back and fiddle with the current sysem and contemplate the pain that we will all feel when we have to pay for the obviously quite expensive ROAD infrastructure.

[somebody]

Do not know what you are smoking but maybe if everyone was on it, it might help aleviate the pain that we will all feel when we have to pay for this obviously quite expensive infrastructure.

Cost would be 20-40% higher than the tunnel proposed for 2026 in the ICRCS, but the benefits are far, far greater.

[Golliwog]

If its going to go to Kenmore, perhaps it could go a bit further and maybe end at Bellbowrie/Moggil ferry area? Wouldn't need to be underground out there. And theres a bunch of space, so would be easy to take some and use it for stabling? Although, would obviously end up competeing with the 444, but isn't that already overcrowded? Could become a sort of high frequency feeder route?

Not saying I fully support this idea, but just thinking about it, and IMO only continuing 1 station past Indro isn't the best option.

[frereOP]

Do not know what you are smoking but maybe if everyone was on it, it might help aleviate the pain that we will all feel when we have to pay for this obviously quite expensive infrastructure.

Or we can calculate the REAL costs we have to bear as a community by not investing in infastructure like this.  Didn't I read recently that the annual cost of congestion in Brisbane was something like $20 Billion?  These are costs too that we as a community are paying.  If a $5 Billion subway line can alleviate just $1 Billion of this a year, it pays for itself in 20 years.

[#Metro]

I've been careful not to specify a mode or be prescriptive here.
I don't mind what people propose as long as they state their case and back it up.

Let me clarify this Kenmore/Centenary rail idea.
The proposal has trains to depart Centenary/Kenmore, travel to UQ and then the CBD?
Is that right? Because if this is the case then it could be tacked onto the ICRCS 2026 tunnel through Toowong-West End.

On the other hand, my personal feeling (entirely my own opinion) is that out Kenmore is hilly and might be better to busway it (elevated or tunneled). This would mean a Western Busway.

[Jon Bryant]

Do not know what you are smoking but maybe if everyone was on it, it might help aleviate the pain that we will all feel when we have to pay for this obviously quite expensive infrastructure.

Or we can calculate the REAL costs we have to bear as a community by not investing in infastructure like this.  Didn't I read recently that the annual cost of congestion in Brisbane was something like $20 Billion?  These are costs too that we as a community are paying.

Not to mention the cost of road trauma, pollution related deaths, social dislocation, construction of never ending road space, support ofr car industry, etc. etc. etc.  

The cost of not doing these projects is far greater than the contruction and operation costs.  What we need is an EIS process that looks at all options to solve a problem and choose the best cost benefit outcome rather than one that iis used to evaluate a single proposal against a Do Nothing option and ignore more than half of the true costs

Time for the BLINKERS TO COME OFF

[#Metro]

Ideas proposed so far. It seems that they can be grouped into two areas:

Short, near-term ideas (more buses, bigger buses, expanded UQ Lakes, 66 + 109, 470+402)
and longer term but bigger impact ideas (Railway to UQ, Metro etc).

Metro
1. University Line Metro connecting CBD with West end, St Lucia and UQ.
2. APM/VAL "Light Metro"

Heavy Rail
1. Kenmore-Ipswich Line-St Lucia-UQ
2. Ipswich Line- St Lucia- UQ- Cross River Rail-CBD
3. Same as (2) then New Farm - Hawthorne - Cleveland Line?

Busway
1. Western Busway- St Lucia Busway- UQ

Other proposals
1. Do nothing
2. More buses, expand UQ Lakes
3. Rocket bus to Toowong
4. 66 + 109
5. 470 + 402

Any others people want to propose?

[#Metro]

If that was the criteria, then we would not build anything.  That's exactly why Brisbane Airport is in the process of planning and building the 3rd runway now - perceived future demand.

Just as a distraction: interesting news about exactly that
http://www.couriermail.com.au/travel/pm-rules-out-curfew-on-brisbane-flights/story-e6freqwf-1225859026936
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/takeoff-brisbane-flights-set-to-double-20100427-tp4i.html

[Golliwog]

Heavy Rail
1. Kenmore-Ipswich Line-St Lucia-UQ
2. Ipswich Line- St Lucia- UQ- Cross River Rail-CBD

I thought the Heavy Rail idea was Kenmore - Iswich line - St Lucia - UQ - CRR - New Farm - Hawthorne - Cleveland Line?

Busway
1. Western Busway- St Lucia Busway- UQ

My opinion on this would be to make it an extension of the busway to UQ Lakes. Tunnel under the campus and have a station under the current Chancellors Place stop, then continue on from there? Not 100% necessary, but would link the network together which I see as important.

On another note though, I know it would be expensive, but I think where there are intersections on the busway (eg: Buranda) they should try and minimise the use of traffic lights and instead provide slip lanes to minimise delays caused by lights taking forever to change. Not such a big deal now, but as more and more buses begin turning at these lights, especially during peak, delays will build up.

[#Metro]

thought the Heavy Rail idea was Kenmore - Iswich line - St Lucia - UQ - CRR - New Farm - Hawthorne - Cleveland Line?

My bad, amended.

My opinion on this would be to make it an extension of the busway to UQ Lakes. Tunnel under the campus and have a station under the current Chancellors Place stop, then continue on from there? Not 100% necessary, but would link the network together which I see as important.

Actually I can see this. It would look like King George square does right now, but underground.
Running buses would also mean that surface streets on the other side could be used to Indooroopilly.

Disadvantage though: High impact on UQ and the head honchos might not like any interference with the campus.

[somebody]

If its going to go to Kenmore, perhaps it could go a bit further and maybe end at Bellbowrie/Moggil ferry area? Wouldn't need to be underground out there. And theres a bunch of space, so would be easy to take some and use it for stabling? Although, would obviously end up competeing with the 444, but isn't that already overcrowded? Could become a sort of high frequency feeder route?

Not saying I fully support this idea, but just thinking about it, and IMO only continuing 1 station past Indro isn't the best option.

Perhaps, but there would need to be:
a) A corridor reserved now
b) increased density out that way

At present, the 444/443 bus services are well and truly sufficient.

An alternative might be to cross the river and serve the Centenary suburbs.