Proposition: Merge 66+109 and adopt CityGlider style operation

[Golliwog]

Maybe some of the stops should be dedicated- buses starting with a 1 always use bay #1, buses with a 2 use bay #2 and so forth (but may be this is not practical?).

I can't see this working unless you changed the stations so they had bays like at UQ Lakes, or lengthened it massively to be more like KGS.

[#Metro]

Does anyone know if KGS is LRT-compatible?
It seems awfully steep rising out of the KGS busway on to the Roma Street Busway station.

Also, the Roma Street outbound busway stop is a bit cramped.

[dwb]

@sirloin

Yes this sounds like a rather horrid trip, probably about THE worst time of day you could have done it copping peaks of Kelvin Grove High, QUT, UQ, and Brisbane State High Students all on the one trip!

This is in part unavoidable, at least until schools/businesses offset their start/stop times.

However it could be reduced SIGNIFICANTLY by all door boarding and with buses with extra wide aisles, extra standing room in the middle of the bus and double width back doors - all of which are part of the suggestion.

[somebody]

Does anyone know if KGS is LRT-compatible?
It seems awfully steep rising out of the KGS busway on to the Roma Street Busway station.

Also, the Roma Street outbound busway stop is a bit cramped.

I'd suggest that the roof is probably a bit low.  Besides, it would only work as a southern terminus, no way would a tram make that turn into the QSBS tunnel.

Aren't you taking your tram obsession a bit far here?

Maybe some of the stops should be dedicated- buses starting with a 1 always use bay #1, buses with a 2 use bay #2 and so forth (but may be this is not practical?).

Pretty sure this has already been tried.  I'd suggest that there would need to be at least 6 bays for it to be worth any sort of split.

[mufreight]

A dose of fact rather than fiction would be a big help here, a tram can make a shorter radius turn than a full size or articulated bus, as for a maximum gradient trams have been operated on grades of better than 1 in 10 in Brisbane, Upper Edward Street at Spring Hill and Latrobe Terrace at Paddington.
A little research before making some of these less than factual posts would add a level of credibility of these posts and those making these posts that is at this time unfortunately absent.

[somebody]

A dose of fact rather than fiction would be a big help here, a tram can make a shorter radius turn than a full size or articulated bus, as for a maximum gradient trams have been operated on grades of better than 1 in 10 in Brisbane, Upper Edward Street at Spring Hill and Latrobe Terrace at Paddington.
A little research before making some of these less than factual posts would add a level of credibility of these posts and those making these posts that is at this time unfortunately absent.

Well that turn can't be made by buses travelling in both directions at the same time.  Are you suggesting trams whose tracks cross each other there and traffic lights?  Or are you saying that trams could, in fact, pass each other through here.

Besides, the infrastructure isn't suited to trams.  I can't see any feasible operating pattern where trams and buses could co-exist in KGSBS, and trams would make it much harder for buses QSBS too.  Why oh why would you want to do this?

[Sir Loin]

Made the same trip today at about 11:15, took less than 40 minutes. Much faster than my 3pm trip the other day.

[ozbob]

20 June 2010: SEQ: Best practise bus route will set the standard

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has again called for the introduction of a novel bus route based on the present 66 and 109 routes.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"RAIL Back on Track has previously suggested a combined 66 and 109 route, running from UQ Lakes to RB&WH, serving busway stations: UQ Lakes, Park Rd, PA Hospital, Mater Hill, South Bank, Cultural Centre, King George Square, Roma St, Normanby, QUT Kelvin Grove, RCH Herston, RB&WH (1,2)."

"This suggestion so far has not been taken up.  A combined 66 and 109 would directly connect the Roma St bus/rail interchange with UQ and the PA Hospital which would add a single change journey to PA Hospital from the Ipswich/Caboolture train lines, as well as Roma St terminating trains from the north in peak.  This is in addition to the several bus routes which come in to Roma St bus station or stop near it on Roma St but do not continue to the Cultural Centre.  It would also allow a single seat journey between UQ and RB&WH."

"There have been many bus delays of late in peaks due to road congestion. Using our busways to the maximum makes sense and will relieve some of the pressure on roads (3).

"Further, giving the 109 a better city stop location in King George Square by combining the routes is also considered to be an advantage.  It also has advantages in cost savings and marginally reducing congestion in the Cultural Centre.  Given that the 66 is usually operated by a bendy bus, adding capacity to the 109 is also seen as an advantage unless UQ Lakes Station is unable to deal with more bendy buses."

"Given these advantages, it is assumed there is some reason why the TransLink Transit Authority and Brisbane Transport are reluctant to combine these routes.  The most plausible reason which can be identified by RAIL Back on Track is that it means that the 66 will no longer serve Woolloongabba.  RAIL Back on Track suggests that other bus routes which currently terminate at the Cultural Centre be extended to replace this service.  Best candidates are the 330 from Bracken Ridge, 333 from Chermside and 340 from Carseldine.  These would take advantage of the superior turn around facility available at the 'Gabba."

"It is also noted that the 66 currently doesn't operate on weekends or late at night, but 109 service is required at those times.  It is assumed that the combined route could be truncated at Roma St at those times as well as reverting the 330 and 340 to the Cultural Centre terminus at weekends and late nights or at other times when the service is surplus to requirements."

References:

1.  29 July 2009 SEQ: Where's our Buz? http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2538.0

2.  27 Feb 2010: SEQ: Northern Busway changes a huge success http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3498.0

3.  Bus delays http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2695.msg28149#msg28149

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[frereOP]

Yes, the capacity constraints are becoming very obvious. Something needs to be done to sort out the Cultural Centre.  Kick cars off Victoria bridge or get serious with the Adelaide St bridge

Rail needs a very serious ramp up.

Which is why I have been advocating a dedicated subway line (as proposed by BCC) and not integrated with QR overground.  The more cars and buses on the roads and busways, the more congestion and the slower the trip.  The BCC report says we won't need subway style system 'til 2026, well, perhaps that needs to be revised.  Why spend good money on road tunnels that will go broke through lack of patronage when the same money could be spent on developing a viable subway system that has a guaranteed return on investment.

An engineer friend of mine who was managing the second Gateway Bridge told me that only tunnels that make money are subway systems.

[ozbob]

There is a need to increase the capacity of the QR Citytrain network as proposed for the Cross River Rail project.  The metro proposal by BCC  and State Government is a different network entirely.  My guess is the metro won't happen for some time.

[somebody]

How busy is the 66 in the weekday daytimes off peak?  Between the 330/333/340 there should be 8 buses/hour.  Are we sure the 66 service at 4/hour required at these times?

[#Metro]

Which is why I have been advocating a dedicated subway line (as proposed by BCC) and not integrated with QR overground.  The more cars and buses on the roads and busways, the more congestion and the slower the trip.  The BCC report says we won't need subway style system 'til 2026, well, perhaps that needs to be revised.  Why spend good money on road tunnels that will go broke through lack of patronage when the same money could be spent on developing a viable subway system that has a guaranteed return on investment.

An engineer friend of mine who was managing the second Gateway Bridge told me that only tunnels that make money are subway systems.

I agree FrereOP. How many buses at Cultural Centre are there now? One every 12 seconds?
Elizabeth street is just as busy, QSBS is busy too. How efficient is this?

Subways are expensive, but Brisbane has had so many tunnels now both on the busway and in Clem 7 and AirportLink etc that we should be pretty good at it. The other thing is that subways attract a lot of passengers, and many have excellent operating ratios and can be automated (so more late night services, more often!)

Yes, I know there are people who want to highlight how we might not need them right now or their expense or other features like that but still I think its a good idea to discuss.

And yes CRR needs to be funded.

[somebody]

How many buses at Cultural Centre are there now? One every 12 seconds?

Point of order: It's about that between the Woolloongabba and Captain Cook Bridge junctions.  It's about 1 every 20 seconds at the Cultural Centre, at least according to the 2007 report.

[dwb]

Bob, I'd suggest a shorter press release something along the lines of "CityGlider markII" would catch more people's attention.... esp the guy who could make it happen if it got published in the paper!

[ozbob]

I'd suggest a shorter press release something along the lines of "CityGlider markII" would catch more people's attention

This is on the cards, the latest one is just one of many on 66+109.  Detail is useful some times ..

[somebody]

Bob, I'd suggest a shorter press release something along the lines of "CityGlider markII" would catch more people's attention.... esp the guy who could make it happen if it got published in the paper!

Well we've already tried that, a couple of times I think.

[somebody]

I suppose one thing that we didn't cover in that release is what about the 333's proposed Gabba extension at times when the current 66 doesn't run?  I don't think having a different route number is really on here, as that breaks the BUZ principle.  A possibility is to have the southbound destination display read either:
Cultural Centre BUZ via Nth Busway and city - 333
Cultural Centre BUZ via Nth Busway and city extending to Woollloongabba - 333

You could do something similar with northern end extensions to the 333, but that would be getting off the point.

[somebody]

What about combining the 109 with the 333?  At least they're both full time services.  Add the 330 & 340 weekday daytimes.

[longboi]

But then you would be mixing routes that serve two markedly different purposes. 333 is your standard suburbs>City BUZ and 109 is an inner-city crosstown service.

If you start mixing those passenger flows (i.e. Chermside-bound services full before reaching the CBD), you're going to reduce the effectiveness of the route.

[somebody]

Only to the degree that people find the effective extension of the 109 useful though.

[#Metro]

It's about time the 109 was made a permanent articulated bus. People are getting crushed in like sardines on the bus.

[Golliwog]

It's about time the 109 was made a permanent articulated bus. People are getting crushed in like sardines on the bus.

...you get crushed on an 109 even when its an artic in the busy times. However, I'm a uni student and honestly I don't care about whether I'm getting squished in or not, so long as the bus turns up and I fit in somewhere.

[Jonno]

Sounds like it needs articulated and an increase in frequency.

[somebody]

Did you notice Alan Warren saying at the CPTF that the 66 is the best utilised bus in the system?  Perhaps BT are very reluctant to mess with it.