New Generation Rollingstock

[tazzer9]

You do not need a 3rd person.   Please go down to sydney just to look at there wonderful system.   Waratahs operate everywhere in the suburban area execuding the illawarra and eastern suburbs lines.   Very few upgrades occured to stations there.  Why does qld need to remain in the 50's.

[#Metro]

You do not need a 3rd person.   Please go down to sydney just to look at there wonderful system.   Waratahs operate everywhere in the suburban area execuding the illawarra and eastern suburbs lines.   Very few upgrades occured to stations there.  Why does qld need to remain in the 50's.

What railways in the world run standard suburban services with three staff? Sounds completely backwards.

How much would it cost to DOO the Gold Coast - Airport Line?

[ozbob]

Queensland is very much living in the past ...

[ozbob]

An extra staff member may have to be placed on each one of Brisbane's new 75 trains to make up for a lack of disability access.#9News pic.twitter.com/3k4z2ORl5N

— Nine News Queensland (@9NewsQueensland) April 8, 2017

[Whippa]

Just get rid of the god damn guard at the tail and put a customer service officer on the train or something. It isn't perfect as that CS person will be doing squat all most of the time but its better than 3 staff.

Oh wait, the unions would go ape sh*t about that. Nvm.

[BrizCommuter]

In Wellington, and some UK trains, the guard can roam the train and operate the doors from any doorway.

[Arnz]

Guards used to call for the right of way from any door on any QR Citytrain train some years ago in occasional circumstances, I think this was before Zero Harm started.

From my past observations they insert the key in the panel next to the door and pressing the bell button (usually black coloured) on the panel after ensuring the platform is clear from the door they were located in at the time.

[tazzer9]

In Wellington, and some UK trains, the guard can roam the train and operate the doors from any doorway.

I've seen being done here.  During the works at Alderley the guard has given the right away to to the driver via the emergency intercom.

[Gazza]

Shift guards on every train (not just NGR) to the rear.

Too many issues with that. Some stations have difficulty with rear boarding and access, many stations have no shelters at the end of the platforms and 3 car trains/rear 3 cars not in use are still operating. Ideally put all NGR on lines with minimal stops ie Gold Coast-Airport and Roma Street-Nambour services. Use additional station staff for stations for example Beenleigh-Varsity Lakes during peak and then rely on an additional 3rd crew member for off peak/stations inbetween where an NGR set happens to be operating which could be provided by a csa. They can signal/communicate to the guard when everything is good to go with any assisted access who would then inturn  inform the driver that the train is in their hands. A similar procedure is already in practice at the innercity stations.

What needs to be worked out is what is cheaper... Staffing extra person per train, or having an extra at the problem stations.

I think its relatively few that are problematic....It only has to be the accessible stations with awkward platform ends...Beenleigh, Goodna etc.

[Stillwater]

At far-flung stations on the network, such as SCL, stations are staffed for short periods.  Staffer travels from Nambour to Cooroy to man the station for about 90 mins in the morning, when the Gympielander and the Tilts come through.  No staff during the lunchtime Gympielander run.

[tazzer9]

There is no reason to have an extra person on board trains. Sydney runs there system without issues with guards at the rear on waratah trains and in the middle of older sets.  It is a slight inconvience at best at some stations.  People needs to realise that not every train will require the use of a ramp at every single station.   In fact, this is even worse in sydney as no platform is level with trains.   

[achiruel]

I would think with the amount of 'fat' in most of the timetables these days, there shouldn't be too much of an issue getting a person using a mobility device on/off now and again. I'm not sure but given what I see as I travel the network I'd be surprised if there's even one on each train.

Still, it seems even with the 'fat' trains often don't run on time, so who knows?

QR = Epic Fail 

[#Metro]

Extra staff means higher service production costs, which means in turn more hesitation to put on frequent and upgraded services in the future.

It is going to be more buck for the same bang.  They should just look at DOO for the Kippa Ring- Springfield run and Gold Coast Airport. Both extensions are fairly new.

Might be an issue at Indooroopilly station with the curve.

Just imagining Friday and Sat nights, there will be 5 staff on the train, ridiculous:
1. Driver
2. Guard
3. Customer service
4. Night security guard 1
5. Night security guard 2

If we have to have extra staff, forget about pure CSO, put contracted security on the train, give them ticket checking functions, security, minor cleaning, and CSO assistance role, a bit like Victorian PSOs.

[Arnz]

Qld basically have 4 groups of AOs, 3 groups with ticket/go-card check & fining powers. (SNOs, CSOs and Rail Squad).
* TL SNOs
* G:Link CSOs (Trams only)
* QPS Rail Squad (Rail only)
* Queensland Rail AOs - Citytrain & Long Distance (Can fine/boot out people off QR premises for minor offenses ala Glorified Security Guards, but to my knowledge are not authorised to check tickets/go cards on their own in the SEQ area - they require either the QPS Rail Squad and/or the TL SNOs to accompany them on ticket checks).

[HappyTrainGuy]

Extra staff means higher service production costs, which means in turn more hesitation to put on frequent and upgraded services in the future.

It is going to be more buck for the same bang.  They should just look at DOO for the Kippa Ring- Springfield run and Gold Coast Airport. Both extensions are fairly new.

Might be an issue at Indooroopilly station with the curve.

Just imagining Friday and Sat nights, there will be 5 staff on the train, ridiculous:
1. Driver
2. Guard
3. Customer service
4. Night security guard 1
5. Night security guard 2

If we have to have extra staff, forget about pure CSO, put contracted security on the train, give them ticket checking functions, security, minor cleaning, and CSO assistance role, a bit like Victorian PSOs.

Kippa Ring also has Northgate-Petrie, Eagle Junction and Bowen Hills which aren't DOO compliant. Virginia you can't get a pram into the first carriage let alone someone with a wheelchair. Then you have to think about the next running ie Springfield.

[#Metro]

^ It is expected that some stations would need works, but that the number be kept small.

At some point upgrades need to be done or we will just keep basing services around stream and diesel train services that have long stopped running on the network.

Surprised to hear that EJ is non-compliant. It was upgraded a few years back.

[tazzer9]

At some point upgrades need to be done or we will just keep basing services around stream and diesel train services that have long stopped running on the network.

Surprised to hear that EJ is non-compliant. It was upgraded a few years back.

You have never travelled on a train through Eagle Junction have you?    But your point of diesel and steam bring up an interesting point.  Where was the guard based on these services, because I certainly know it wasn't in the middle of the train. 

[red dragin]

But your point of diesel and steam bring up an interesting point.  Where was the guard based on these services, because I certainly know it wasn't in the middle of the train.

No consideration was made for disabled access either.

[#Metro]

So EJ was upgraded and left DDA non-compliant? Really??

They spent $10 million on upgrades. I've been through it on the Airtrain etc but never noted if the platform was raised or not.

Didn't include raising the platforms then.

[HappyTrainGuy]

^ It is expected that some stations would need works, but that the number be kept small.

Hahahahahahahahaha. Bahahahahahahaha! Not that simple bud.

As I said you have the stations - raising the platforms/shelters/relocating some platforms and infrastructure/whatever. On top of that you have the rollingstock which may or may not be compliant - the majority of the fleet which is not (that brings up other issues as well such as fault finding when there are issues in the older rollingstock ie stopping a train vs fault finding on the run). Then you have staff/safeworking procedures ie drivers leaving the cabs.

Some stations you can get away with it easily but the majority of the network simply isn't isnt DOO compatible. You thought the disability groups kicked up a stink about not being able to use the toilets on a train. Wait till you tell them about waiting at the end of platforms with no shelters, seating or minimal lighting.

But your point of diesel and steam bring up an interesting point.  Where was the guard based on these services, because I certainly know it wasn't in the middle of the train.

No consideration was made for disabled access either.

No such thing as DDA or disability compliance. Only the EMUs had any real disability compliance.

[#Metro]

If it were simple it would already be done, right?

Time for modernisation at QR, in more ways than one.

Melbourne moved to DOO, we should slowly move to it too.

The way things are going, we will have nobody driving the bus but 3+ staff on the train on 90K. Expensive.

[verbatim9]

Yep DOO. This third person thing on the train is stupid. Be cheaper to build humps/raised sections at the end of each platform and a shelter than employ or those extra people

[HappyTrainGuy]

If it were simple it would already be done, right?

Time for modernisation at QR, in more ways than one.

Melbourne moved to DOO, we should slowly move to it too.

The way things are going, we will have nobody driving the bus but 3+ staff on the train on 90K. Expensive.

I was pointing out the real issues and not your "kept small" numbers.

[ozbob]

Meanwhile ... 

We had the pleasure to host @TurnbullMalcolm and @narendramodi on a Bombardier train in #Delhi https://t.co/zcSw7n6MKA

— BombardierRail (@BombardierRail) April 10, 2017

I wonder if Mal had a bo-peep at a NGR unit?   

[ozbob]

On board the Delhi Metro with PM @TurnbullMalcolm. We are heading to the Akshardham Temple. pic.twitter.com/AiP4BAqhLY

— Narendra Modi (@narendramodi) April 10, 2017

[HappyTrainGuy]

I should also point out just because Melbourne went to DOO doesn't mean Queensland can easily convert its network to be the same. Melbourne had a network that could easily go to DOO. Perth got lucky with its DOO as the railway network was almost shut down in the mid 90's before money was spent on it - the majority of it is new infrastructure.

To upgrade the existing rollingstock and infrastructure would be a substantial amount. The state government ended up very publicly trying to push through DOO before Victoria did (I think that might even have lead to strikes in other states as others looked at the idea) as a cost cutting move in the late 80's or early 90's (for some reason I think it was 1991 or 1992? - I can't recall exactly as its almost 30 years ago but it might have been one of the recommendations at cutting costs in the railways... the same one that lead to Doomben getting cut) in a very Newman NGR/BCC Metro move without actually doing the planning but the union here called them out on it for no planned infrastructure upgrades to existing stations (the gold coast line and the inner city upgrades had all the funding from local, state and federal governments), driver pay increases couldn't be agreed on if DOO was implemented, EMU's are the worst rollingstock to operate DOO on due to their limitations and the planned SMU's were being based off an EMU, along with a few other reasons such as network expansion outside of SEQ on the freight and coal networks.

Hence why the State Government dropped the idea for DOO. They simply didn't have the money to convert the SEQ network to DOO at the time with all these new infrastructure upgrades.

Then came the DDA in the mid 90's. Instead stations got access upgrades such as lifts and new walkways, quadification and triplication between Bowen Hills and Petrie, Doomben line got shafted under the same cost cutting scheme in late 92, expansion to the Gold Coast line, it was cheaper to buy new trains and sell the old rollingstock rather than outfitting the existing diesel hauled rollingstock which was originally planned, the coal network was exploding so it needed to shift the existing electric locos being used on the suburban network to be reconfigured for the coal/freight network ASAP.

All of which pretty much killed off DOO for the SEQ network. Then Bligh came in and upset people. Newman got in and butchered QR even further by gutting it, buying DOO trains for a non compliant DOO network, stuffing up infrastructure programs and prepared to privitise it. Labour took control again and went on the blame game/PR look rather than address the issues. DOO isn't happening anytime soon and don't expect it too.

[ozbob]

With @narendramodi on the Delhi Metro Blue Line - 212 kms & 159 stations since 2002 pic.twitter.com/O4Zr2695Sg

— Malcolm Turnbull (@TurnbullMalcolm) April 10, 2017

^

Good on you Mal! I knew it - a train ' selfie '
How about helping out the Sunny Coast Line in QLD ? CRR ?
Thanks.#auspol #qldpol https://t.co/KwRVmda6gm

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) April 10, 2017

[#Metro]

We can't have 3 people in a train all on 90K or thereabouts.

It's international worst practice. Little by little we have to DOO it.

Maybe it was easier with the trains - who knows? But the trams went DOO also, and that had all the DDA problems in the world.

Melbourne still managed to DOO it.



Start small with what is achievable. GC  and Airport are good candidates.

Sorry, but QR seems bent on becoming a high cost, low service organization of late.

Infrastructure is expensive, though they are one off costs. Perhaps TOD can be used to offset?

[Stillwater]

^ Maybe Malcolm Turnbull should take a ride on Cleveland's evening peak 'Bombay Express'   

[ozbob]

They are on a Bombardier train.  I wonder if he asked them about the NGRs?   

[Gazza]

I still don't get why a few bad stations means you cant do interim measures?

If there is no shelter at the end of a platform, then use those blue TransLink marquees you see deployed around the network for this purpose.

If certain stations have a problematic platform end, then Have platform staff.

These measures would require less staff than having a 3rd person on every service picking their nose mostly.

Id also say that camel humps at the last door is probably easier to build than one mid platform.

Now, im not saying these work in 100% of cases, but they would for 95%, and you use staff, and extra info in the QR  DDA guidebook to give specific guidance for your goodnas etc.

[HappyTrainGuy]

We can't have 3 people in a train all on 90K or thereabouts.

Who said its going to be an additional guard? Who said its going to be an additional staff member on the train? Or was it taken from a dot point saying "additional crew member" under the headline possible work arounds. What and were the other suggestions? Were there plans? Running 3 crew per NGR train only on the Gold Coast-Airport line until stations had infrastructure in place. Can they increase staff at stations where suitable and use the guard for 1 or 2 stations in between? Could be anything. You don't know.

No different than when I mentioned before with regards to DOO in the early 90's. The cost cutting title might have mentioned DOO to cut operating costs for the state government without going into detail about driver pay, station upgrades and rollingstock limitations but it also mentioned line closures up north, some rollingstock was relocated/withdrawn, axing the Doomben line for passenger services and cutting staff station hours - Which keeps happening. The state saw it as a way to save $$$ and tried to get QR to push it. The unions wouldn't back down so the state dropped the DOO idea and just approved all the line closures and continued with all the infrastructure and rollingstock projects through the 90's. Once the DDA came out that pretty much sealed the fate of DOO for quite a long time.

Gazza, loose structures aren't allowed on platforms for safety reasons. If they are they are usually really tied up far away from the platform edge if permittable.

[Gazza]

South Bank used them so :conf

[BrizCommuter]

^ Maybe Malcolm Turnbull should take a ride on Cleveland's evening peak 'Bombay Express'   

Apparently the Indians call their busier trains the "Cleveland all stations".

[red dragin]

^ Maybe Malcolm Turnbull should take a ride on Cleveland's evening peak 'Bombay Express'   

Apparently the Indians call their busier trains the "Cleveland all stations".

[SurfRail]

South Bank used them so :conf

They're attached to the platform, would be no different if rolled out elsewhere so not an issue.

[achiruel]

Could DOO intially be done on GC-Airport trains.

Ormeau-Varsity Lakes should have no issues with platform access from 1st carriage.
Beenleigh is staffed basically every service
Loganlea there is space but would need shelters built at the first car end.
Altandi I don't know well enough to comment.
Park Rd is a BIG problem (curved platform, narrow ends).
South Bank, South Brisbane are staffed for the majority of services
Roma St, Central should be ok, and are staffed most of the time anyway, likewise FV
Bowen Hills is staffed for nearly all services.
Albion/Wooloowin I see some issues with narrow platform ends/no shelters.
EJ like Park Rd is a BIG problem with curved platforms and narrow ends.
Intl AP/Dom AP should be ok being relatively new and well sheltered.

Seems that really the biggest problems are Park Rd & EJ, even more so because they are junction stations and may require people to transfer trains there.

My question - Could GC trains run DOO Park Rd<->Varsity Lakes. Guard could leave GC trains at Park Rd and join the next i/b Dom AP train. I don't know how it would work with current timetable though.

GC train dep Park Rd :12 and :42 and Airport train dep :17 and :47, on giving guard 5 minutes to swap services, what if service is late? Train then has to wait for guard.

[#Metro]

^ any issues with lack of ATP on Gold Coast line? Good idea so far.

Both EJ and Park road could be TOD to offset costs of platform upgrades.

[achiruel]

NGR are ETCS 2 ready. Run only NGR on GCL. obviously this is a medium-term solution, but so is everything that involves DOO. It won't happen overnight.

It was a stupid decision by the Newman Government to purchase DOO rollingstock with no plans to actually make the network DOO ready. Really someone from the Government needs to ask the former TM about it in question time, I'd be interested in his response.

[HappyTrainGuy]

South Bank used them so :conf

They may have been bolted down and away from the platform edge.